2.5 years and 4 clutches. Soon will need another. My Puma

[alittlebitconcerned]

It looks like I will need yet another clutch for my 08 Puma. It's apparently had the most recent upgraded clutch installed lessthan a year ago. Having said that it made a 'crunching' spring noise as I changed gears driving it away from the dealers. Mentioned it and wonder of wonders got the standard LR reply 'no fault found'.
With this new clutch (and the previous ones) Ive also experienced intermittent complete clutch fade. This is almost non existant now since changing using racing clutch fluid which points to a heat issue.
What I am now getting is the dreaded spring rattle which is only getting worse over the last fortnight.

My questions are...

1) has anyone who's experienced several lutch failures ever resolved the issues for any meaningful amount of time.

2) Putting driver error aside, what is causing this?

3) If it is an inherent Puma issue (yes I know some are perfect and will never ever ever show any issues, ever) is there a proven clutch upgrade available.

I've searched all the usual places and the discussions just seem to fade away once a new clutch is installed and then starts up again when they fail; but I cannot find any actual resolution to the problem.

I will give my first born and/or a decent enough kidney to the person who resolves this nonsense for me. Help.

[Graeme]

Does the Puma have a dual mass flywheel like the TD5s?

[TimNZ]

It looks like I will need yet another clutch for my 08 Puma. It's apparently had the most recent upgraded clutch installed lessthan a year ago. Having said that it made a 'crunching' spring noise as I changed gears driving it away from the dealers. Mentioned it and wonder of wonders got the standard LR reply 'no fault found'.
With this new clutch (and the previous ones) Ive also experienced intermittent complete clutch fade. This is almost non existant now since changing using racing clutch fluid which points to a heat issue.
What I am now getting is the dreaded spring rattle which is only getting worse over the last fortnight.

My questions are...

1) has anyone who's experienced several lutch failures ever resolved the issues for any meaningful amount of time.

2) Putting driver error aside, what is causing this?

3) If it is an inherent Puma issue (yes I know some are perfect and will never ever ever show any issues, ever) is there a proven clutch upgrade available.

I've searched all the usual places and the discussions just seem to fade away once a new clutch is installed and then starts up again when they fail; but I cannot find any actual resolution to the problem.

I will give my first born and/or a decent enough kidney to the person who resolves this nonsense for me. Help.

There was a thread on the Defender2 site talking about fitting the BT50 clutch, but I haven't been following it sorry.


Does the Puma have a dual mass flywheel like the TD5s?

No

Cheers,

Tim

[PAT303]

Could it be your driving style?. Pat

[alittlebitconcerned]

Could it be your driving style?. Pat
No.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Is remapped? Do you do heavy towing?

Sent using Forum Runner

[alittlebitconcerned]

Thanks for asking, I should have clarified.
I dont tow and there are no performance upgrades and I still run the tyres it came with. It has had a very easy life, I drive it gently and it has had only a couple of easy hours off road since the latest clutch was installed.

[flagg]

What has been failing with the clutch? is it evenly warn out? or damaged in anyway? Could it be that it is out of adjustment and slipping which is wearing it out prematurely?

[stig0000]

No.

oh dear, its never the drivers fualt??? :(

sorry but 4 clutchs in 2 yrs,,, thats stuped, yes the puma clutch is ****,, but not that bad, and im sure the dealer ant that stuped to just fit a new clutch with out looking at what was wrong, most iv seen is 2 in one car and that was from it been thrashed,

[newhue]

sorry to hear that alittlebitconcerned. Frustrating and takes the shine off at the very least. Is the new one going in under warranty?

[alittlebitconcerned]

What has been failing with the clutch? is it evenly warn out? or damaged in anyway? Could it be that it is out of adjustment and slipping which is wearing it out prematurely?

Unlike the previous ones this clutch still pulls fine, apart from the (now) very rare times where it will fade briefly.
What is happening is I get a rattling/clunking sound when the car is idleing in neutral with the clutch up. When I depress the clutch and hold it down the sound disappears. Lift the foot and the sound comes back.
I believe it is the clutch because a very knowledgable bloke who fixes them for a living suggests it is although he hasn't head it himself yet. I have also found plenty of online references to the identical issue which turn out to be the clutch. I have not seen the clutch itself so cannot comment on wear etc. It may be out of alignment but if so it hasnt been picked up before this when they were replaced.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Hey Newhue. My defender is now out of warranty but as the clutch is not old it will still be covered.

[n plus one]

My understanding is that there has been at least three (if not more) designs of the Puma clutch overtime.

Rattling/broken springs are the most common fault I have heard of - seems fairly routine.

Sounds like your issue is something more than just the clutch itself - mine's done 80k and is still going strong. Not trying to rub it in - just an indicator that the standard clutch is capable of reasonable mileage.

PS I've heard about some of the Jap owners replacing their dual mass setups due to reliability issue, so that might not be the ideal solution.

[robbotd5]

oh dear, its never the drivers fualt??? :(

sorry but 4 clutchs in 2 yrs,,, thats stuped, yes the puma clutch is ****,, but not that bad, and im sure the dealer ant that stuped to just fit a new clutch with out looking at what was wrong, most iv seen is 2 in one car and that was from it been thrashed,

Not helpful. The blokes just asking for help, not to be judged.
Regards
Robbo.

[TimNZ]

It would be nice to know what part of the clutch is failing. If it's the "anti-rattle" springs it could be something weird like rough idle, bad engine/gearbox mounts. I know first hand there were issues with the earlier clutches, but my 2010 110 has done 75k kms without a issue, (as above, not to rub it in).

Would be interesting to know if the 3.2 TDCi clutch, (from the Transit/Ranger) would fit, but I guess if this was the case the UK owners would be doing it.

Cheers,

[MR LR]

It would be nice to know what part of the clutch is failing. If it's the "anti-rattle" springs it could be something weird like rough idle, bad engine/gearbox mounts. I know first hand there were issues with the earlier clutches, but my 2010 110 has done 75k kms without a issue, (as above, not to rub it in).

Would be interesting to know if the 3.2 TDCi clutch, (from the Transit/Ranger) would fit, but I guess if this was the case the UK owners would be doing it.

Cheers,
This isn't a dig, but my pop had a problem with this 75 series Land Cruiser ute from new doing the same thing, it was due to him driving with the weight of his foot on the pedal, curious if it could be the same thing.

Also do you tow regularly, or back up trailers slowly etc?? If you do then low range will make the clutch last a lot longer although it sounds like your problems are not a worn clutch but a failing one...

Cheers
Will

[TimNZ]

It would be nice to know what part of the clutch is failing. If it's the "anti-rattle" springs it could be something weird like rough idle, bad engine/gearbox mounts. I know first hand there were issues with the earlier clutches, but my 2010 110 has done 75k kms without a issue, (as above, not to rub it in).

Would be interesting to know if the 3.2 TDCi clutch, (from the Transit/Ranger) would fit, but I guess if this was the case the UK owners would be doing it.

Cheers,

This isn't a dig, but my pop had a problem with this 75 series Land Cruiser ute from new doing the same thing, it was due to him driving with the weight of his foot on the pedal, curious if it could be the same thing.

Also do you tow regularly, or back up trailers slowly etc?? If you do then low range will make the clutch last a lot longer although it sounds like your problems are not a worn clutch but a failing one...

Cheers
Will

Did you quote the post you meant to there Will?

[PAT303]

This isn't a dig, but my pop had a problem with this 75 series Land Cruiser ute from new doing the same thing, it was due to him driving with the weight of his foot on the pedal, curious if it could be the same thing.

Also do you tow regularly, or back up trailers slowly etc?? If you do then low range will make the clutch last a lot longer although it sounds like your problems are not a worn clutch but a failing one...

Cheers
Will

Lots of clutch's are hot spotted from people doing just that,it also stuffs the throw out bearing.Lots of selector forks are worn through from people leaning on the stick as they drive. Pat

[alittlebitconcerned]

No clutch riding, no towing, no leaning on gear stick. I dont let anyone drive it but me because of the issues its had.

I live on a hill and use low range when reversing. I also actively look to find a park that doesnt require reversing if I can help it and one that leaves the front of the defender pointing downhill so in the morning I can pullaway from the curb without the need to use the clutch in ANY way that would stress it. As this is my fourth clutch I am more than a little paranoid about how the clutch gets used.

The comments about a rough engine idle match what my mechanic suggested and what I have found online and am wondering if this could be it. A bad EGR will make the car surge and run rough and in the last several weeks my EGR has again been rough and making a loud 'chucka chucka' sound when I turn the engine off. I cant remember how many times the EGR valve has now had to replaced due to failure, I think it's either 5 or 6.

If the clutch failures are due to a rough engine or rough (too low?) idleing, what is the solution? I understand the idle cannot be adjusted and after 5 to 6 EGR valve replacments I dont think a new one will fix the problem. If I do find a heavy duty clutch to replace the standard one wouldn't the problem then be passed on to something else in the drive train?

[djam1]

I sympathize with you with your plight, others have asked if its a driver issue and you have flatly rejected the suggestion.
Don't be too hasty and check yourself we all get it wrong sometimes.

That said lets say you are right and its nothing to do with you is there an alignment issue with the Bell-housing or something?
I recall some of the poorly made Holden conversion kits for series had the same problem.
I don't doubt that Land Rover could make a mistake and 5 clutches in the time you talk of indicate something is going on.

[alittlebitconcerned]

I sympathize with you with your plight, others have asked if its a driver issue and you have flatly rejected the suggestion.
Don't be too hasty and check yourself we all get it wrong sometimes.

That said lets say you are right and its nothing to do with you is there an alignment issue with the Bell-housing or something?
I recall some of the poorly made Holden conversion kits for series had the same problem.
I don't doubt that Land Rover could make a mistake and 5 clutches in the time you talk of indicate something is going on.

Hi djam. You are correct in what you say and I would actually love the issue to be my driving style. If it is something about my style it isnt something that has been outlined here. I also don't doubt that LR could make multiple mistakes with the one issue; I've witnessed it first hand more than once.

[alittlebitconcerned]

I sympathize with you with your plight, others have asked if its a driver issue and you have flatly rejected the suggestion.
Don't be too hasty and check yourself we all get it wrong sometimes.

That said lets say you are right and its nothing to do with you is there an alignment issue with the Bell-housing or something?
I recall some of the poorly made Holden conversion kits for series had the same problem.
I don't doubt that Land Rover could make a mistake and 5 clutches in the time you talk of indicate something is going on.

How do I check the bellhousing alignment? Just take it to my mechanic?

[Allan]

I understand your frustration, I'm on my third clutch in 30000km of only light use other than one Kimberley trip on the third one. Both were "updated versions" the latter all good so far. Do you know if the dealer fitted the updated clutch to your vehicle?

Allan

[djam1]

I am not sure how you do it yourself but I have read Bill (Wagoo) talk about it in the past.
It should be in the realms of the skills of a good workshop to check the alignment provided they have the correct equipment.
That said there are some skilled technicians and there are muppets that twirl spanners on a daily basis so it could be a lucky dip.


How do I check the bellhousing alignment? Just take it to my mechanic?

[PAT303]

I sympathize with you with your plight, others have asked if its a driver issue and you have flatly rejected the suggestion.
Don't be too hasty and check yourself we all get it wrong sometimes.

That said lets say you are right and its nothing to do with you is there an alignment issue with the Bell-housing or something?
I recall some of the poorly made Holden conversion kits for series had the same problem.
I don't doubt that Land Rover could make a mistake and 5 clutches in the time you talk of indicate something is going on.

Some of the Holden conversions were worse than crap,the pinion bearings used to fail and screech like murder the alignment was so far out. Pat

[PAT303]

I wonder if it's the slave cylinder adjusted without free play?,that would effectively be like riding the clutch which would stuff the clutch quick smart. Pat

[alittlebitconcerned]

I wonder if it's the slave cylinder adjusted without free play?,that would effectively be like riding the clutch which would stuff the clutch quick smart. Pat

Thanks Pat. Anyway of 'feeling' that? Or do I take it to my mechanic?

[alittlebitconcerned]

I understand your frustration, I'm on my third clutch in 30000km of only light use other than one Kimberley trip on the third one. Both were "updated versions" the latter all good so far. Do you know if the dealer fitted the updated clutch to your vehicle?

Allan

I was told I had the updated version installed but Ive been spun some stories in the past about 'upgraded' bits being put on when they havent been; so couldnt say for certain. Can I ask what year your Defender is and do you have ongoing issues with the EGR?

[Allan]

I was told I had the updated version installed but Ive been spun some stories in the past about 'upgraded' bits being put on when they havent been; so couldnt say for certain. Can I ask what year your Defender is and do you have ongoing issues with the EGR?

Mine is a 2008 SVX it had one egr replaced after my trip north when the clean down cycle sounded like a rusty outside toilet door opening and closing. The first clutch replacement lasted about 5000km after waiting a month for the kit to arrive from the U.K. This one even feels a lot better than the preceding two. As far as egr's go I think the only answer is a remap that shuts the thing for keeps, I await s.h.m.b.o. permission for this.


Allan

[newhue]

Mine had it's clutch replaced with "the upgraded" version early in the year at 45K.
The rattle appeared after 5 or so hours of highway driving. Quite distinct and caught my ear as I opens the front gate. I don't leave my hand in the gear stick, foot on the clutch driving or at the lights. I don't ride the clutch an any way, and use the hand brake for hill starts. Even leave it in neutral most times when it;s parked.

At 56K my EGR has gone. I have used fuel doctor in it from day one so it obviously made no difference. There doesn't seem to be any obvious difference in anything except more soot at the end of the tail pipe.

It seems a remap is the only way to ditch the too regular EGR replacement some have had. I had herd $3000 for a clutch so I'm not keen to be doing these several times within 100K either.
It's either these clutches and their springs are made so cheap its pathetic, or there is something fundamentally wrong with the drive line set up LR have chosen.
Not everyone comes on here and says they've had clutch replacements but the more you look the more come out of the wood work.

Sadly I think its modern motoring because many of the supposed reliable Jap vehicles are have similar issues with there chosen part.

[Graeme]

If the clutch failures are due to a rough engine or rough (too low?) idleing..
Is much idling done?

[PAT303]

Mine is a 2008 SVX it had one egr replaced after my trip north when the clean down cycle sounded like a rusty outside toilet door opening and closing. The first clutch replacement lasted about 5000km after waiting a month for the kit to arrive from the U.K. This one even feels a lot better than the preceding two. As far as egr's go I think the only answer is a remap that shuts the thing for keeps, I await s.h.m.b.o. permission for this.


Allan


Every vehicle that I know of fitted with egr's has issue's so turning them off seems the only answer. Pat

[astoltz]

See post below about Clutch:

Technical Service Bulletin LTB00477/2012 : Released on 06 Aug 2012



http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1736394-post81.html

Abrie

[alittlebitconcerned]

Is much idling done?

I'm in the inner suburbs of Sydney so I guess so when sitting at lights.

[Defender Mike]

Now up to to 8500ks on our 2012 Defender 90 with my wife driving mostly as I work away. She slips ,drops rides, and generaly gives the clutch a very hard time as far as Im concerned but no problems at all so far. It has a bullet proof feel to the whole vehicle. We got 250,000ks out of our first clutch in the Disco 2 with the same offender doing most the driving. It was only when we had to fix the transfer case we decided to do the clutch and found out we had a dual mass flywheel, an expensive little exercise. I would not be surprised if there is an alignment problem with your vehicle. John B and I have the same new 2012 defender 90 and the difference between the 2 vehicles is amazing. Especially noticed when fitting accesiories Johns needed 3 spacers on bull bar mine only 1 fitting under console safe box huge difference it would appear his vehicle sits forward on chassis 10mm nore than mine. Hope you can find out whats wrong and let us all know. Is the dealer helpful or a pain and who are they?:)

[astoltz]

See post below about Clutch:

Technical Service Bulletin LTB00477/2012 : Released on 06 Aug 2012



Abrie

Version 2 is out replacing the above:
Technical Service Bulletin LTB00477v2 : Released on 20 Aug 2012

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1753793-post84.html
Abrie

[Blknight.aus]

Spigot bush missing or wrong one?

Ive now done 3 clutchs on various vehicles in the last 12ish months that have either not had a spigot bearing when they should have or the spigot bearing was the wrong one for the job and was oversize.

only one was exhibiting the symptoms you describe but it also had input bearing noise which may be what your listening to, is it as bad if you use 4th gear?

[alittlebitconcerned]

Hey Dave, hard for me to comment. Is it a time consuming job to get it either the spigot bearing or input bearing checked? Id be paying to get it done.

Also, I havent noticed the noise in fourth.

Cheers.

[Blknight.aus]

Hey Dave, hard for me to comment. Is it a time consuming job to get it either the spigot bearing or input bearing checked? Id be paying to get it done.

Also, I havent noticed the noise in fourth.

Cheers.

engine/gearbox pull.

[Dopey]

G'day, Alittlebitconcerned,
Any updates to the clutch issues?
I know this thread is over two years old, just wondering if it ever got fixed properly?
My 2013 model 90 has a clutch that is on the way out.....
Nearly 20,000 Klms on it so far.

Mike.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Kind of, but not really.

On my current clutch I've experienced random slipping which was rectified (largely) by using a high performance hydraulic fluid which doesn't fail in extreme heat.
It also has developed a very obvious knocking sound when idling in neutral. There apparently is no cure other than replacing the clutch but I was told by my mechanic to not worry too much as he has seen the same problem with pumas with thousands of K's on the clock with no failure.
Having said all this I would definitely feel more confident of being remote if I didn't have either issue.

[Deelerock]

hey fellas.

what are the symptoms? small slip to fail in two days kind of thing?

not sure if this helps, but in my last puma, some fluid got onto the clutch plate and cause the plate to burn and glaze over. sent it back and the dealer fixed it straight away. when she went in, the dealer said that the clutch set up has been known to get a bit of fluid os the plate.


that old 110 had a bas map and went well, towed the big boat to bermagui no problems after that. two years of stellar performance until a forced retirement.

[Dopey]

My 2013 model 90's clutch also has the probably the same knocking sound in neutral that alittlebitconcerned reports about.

I also have a fair amount of vibration when turning the engine off.

I definitely don't keep my foot on the clutch pedal at all while driving, have always been as gentle with the clutch as I can be, however I also have excessive driveline backlash with this vehicle and to attempt to minimise this, I tend to slip the clutch more than I would prefer.....

3 different Land rover dealerships have told me that the driveline backlash is normal, however I have four other 90's (yes 5 of the buggers in total) and none of them have the backlash of my newest one.

One of the 90's that I purchased new in England has the original clutch, 20 years old and approaching 400,000 miles NOT kilometres.

I am definitely immensely unimpressed with the new "Puma" models and in saying that I have had more troubles in 18 months and ~20,000 Klms with my 2013 model 90, than I have had with all my other 90's.

Anyways, I'm hoping if I whinge long enough and loud enough, that Land Rover will fix the issues with it, but I'm not holding my breath about it....

Trying to get things fixed under warranty has so far been a very frustrating time.
The clutch is the item that at the moment I am trying to get fixed/replaced.

Mike.

Edit: at this stage I don't think that I would ever buy a new Land Rover again, but would definitely recommend to anyone thinking of doing so to purchase an older one e.g. 300TDI or Isuzu and spend money on it to get it to their satisfaction.

[PAT303]

Mike,plenty of us haven't had trouble,I feel sorry for as it seems your dealer doesn't give a toss,Barbagallo's in Perth changed the clutch in my TDCi without even asking,they just gave us a car to use and said we'll give yours back when we are happy with it. Pat

[Dopey]

Yep, I've read a lot on here about barbagallo being pretty good in regards to warranty and servicing.

However I'm getting sick of the dealers that I've experienced here in Sydney try and tell me that they haven't heard of the issues that I want rectified, issues that many other people on this forum complain about too.

I do see that a lot of the newer defenders are being used in a much harsher climate and environment than mine with no problems (or very little) at all, however I think that maybe mine got put together on a Monday morning after a hard weekend on the turps, or maybe the factory apprentices/trainees put it together with no supervision.....

N.B; I have had good experiences with Alto land rover servicing at St Leonard's, and will go back there again, however the newest Sydney dealership which is only a very short drive from my house will never see my vehicle again in their workshop while I own it.
I have read of others having bad experiences with Alto at St Leonard's, but so far I have not had an issue.

Mike.

[LoveB]

I'm at 55,000KM at the moment and no issues with clutch. I've heard a bit of a chatter when off the clutch which goes away when you step on it. But its not that bad.

I've towed numerous times up and down hill and have no issues so far thankfully. maybe I got a better lemon lol

[PAT303]

Yep, I've read a lot on here about barbagallo being pretty good in regards to warranty and servicing.

However I'm getting sick of the dealers that I've experienced here in Sydney try and tell me that they haven't heard of the issues that I want rectified, issues that many other people on this forum complain about too.

I do see that a lot of the newer defenders are being used in a much harsher climate and environment than mine with no problems (or very little) at all, however I think that maybe mine got put together on a Monday morning after a hard weekend on the turps, or maybe the factory apprentices/trainees put it together with no supervision.....

N.B; I have had good experiences with Alto land rover servicing at St Leonard's, and will go back there again, however the newest Sydney dealership which is only a very short drive from my house will never see my vehicle again in their workshop while I own it.
I have read of others having bad experiences with Alto at St Leonard's, but so far I have not had an issue.

Mike.

Mike,I've had both my L322 RR and current TDCi serviced/repaired at Alto,no complaint's from me,actually Alto's fixed the A/C on my L322,they replaced the second relay,common fault with them while I waited,good service when you drive in and they fix it on the spot. Pat

[PAT303]

Mike,the vibration on shut down is just a defender thing,mines done it from new. Pat

[Dopey]

Pat,
Re: Alto @ St Leonards,
I have not had a problem with them and will continue to go back there...
I have read and been told by others of issues with them, however I have not had an issue.

The vibration on shut down of the engine on my vehicle is not normal...
It is excessive, there is obviously an issue with it somewhere, it is not a continual problem, but comes and goes....

I have test driven a fair few new "Puma" engined defenders, mine is one of the worst I have come across.

I purchased the "Puma" with the intention of utilising it for touring as my other 90's are pretty old and well worn.
I cannot rely on the new "puma" to drive five minutes without having issues, whether electrical or mechanical....

So, my favourite 300TDI is being given a quick refurb and when finished and back on the road I will pull down and rebuild the new "Puma" if Land Rover cannot or will not fix the issues it has.

As seen on this forum and others, while the vast majority of people do not have issues with their new "Puma" engined Land Rovers, a fair percentage of people do...

Anyways, enough of me whinging,
Who else has had clutch issues like mine (excessive vibration and knocking) and also who else has had many clutches replaced like alittlebitconcerned has?

Mike.

[Naks]

1) has anyone who's experienced several lutch failures ever resolved the issues for any meaningful amount of time


Yep, since I bought the truck new in Feb 2010, it's now on the 3rd clutch.

This last one was installed in Jan 2013, just before it went out of warranty, and last month my indie told me it will need replacing in/around Jan 2015.

Mine is remapped and I do tend to drive it a bit like a hooligan every now and then, but for the most part it's always clutch pedal in when starting and stopping the engine.

I have heard from someone who had it happen to them that even if the springs shatter into pieces, the clutch still works, so at least you won't be stranded.

[lr110qld]

Kind of, but not really.

On my current clutch I've experienced random slipping which was rectified (largely) by using a high performance hydraulic fluid which doesn't fail in extreme heat.
It also has developed a very obvious knocking sound when idling in neutral. There apparently is no cure other than replacing the clutch but I was told by my mechanic to not worry too much as he has seen the same problem with pumas with thousands of K's on the clock with no failure.
Having said all this I would definitely feel more confident of being remote if I didn't have either issue.
It seems strange that changing hyd fluid can fix a slipping clutch!

[wrinklearthur]

It seems strange that changing hyd fluid can fix a slipping clutch!

I have found a different problem on one of my clutch's that has had plenty of work before It was removed.

The clutch was slipping and I changed both the cylinders, but at that stage not the clutch it's self, the slipping when changing up a gear and pulling hard (traffic lights) was nearly nonexistent and I left it for a while.

The slipping came back with a vengeance, then the clutch pedal altered it's working position quickly, so I had to investigated why and after pulling the gearbox fearing a punctured throwout lever , I found nothing wrong with the clutch at all!! :confused:
It was showing some signs of wear but it could have kept going for a long time still.

I replaced the gearbox, with a new clutch kit, as the C/D needed attention and wasn't until I started to work on another gearbox that I borrowed some bits from the box awaiting the C/D rebuild and I found the problem as to why the clutch was slipping.

The throwout race slides back and forth on a sleeve, which is made from a soft alloy and over time a shoulder wears into the sleeve where the throwout race ends up resting.

As the clutch linings wear, the fingers of the pressure plate raise slightly out of the pressure plate, therefore the throwout race rests in a spot closer to the gear box and if that wear shoulder becomes too obstructive the throwout can't release properly that caused the clutch mechanism to remain in tension that then allowed the plate to start slipping.

The rattle was noticeable in the clutch before I changed the gearbox and clutch kit. There has been no issue with the clutch slipping and neither has there been any rattle from the clutch since.

By changing the clutch fluid to one with a better lubricating quality, could be allowing the piston in the slave cylinder return more easily to the rest position and not keeping the clutch mechanism on with some slight tension.
.

[Loubrey]

...but for the most part it's always clutch pedal in when starting and stopping the engine.

Naks mate,

That is possibly the worst thing you can do with a diesel engine's clutch...

I have always been told to never, never have the clutch depressed on starting and stopping. Place it in neutral and start or stop with your foot off the clutch.

Just to make sure I'm not talking nonsense, I've just had a conversation and confirmation from my diesel workshop manager (I work in Civil Construction). The pressures you exert on the clutch with it depressed during start and stop will damage the clutch and might very well very have contributed your failures.

My car is almost the same age as yours (about three months older if I remember correctly) and I've also got a BAS map and I've not had a hint of problems with my clutch or gearbox since new...

Cheers,

Lou

[Gerokent]

Naks mate,

That is possibly the worst thing you can do with a diesel engine's clutch...

I have always been told to never, never have the clutch depressed on starting and stopping. Place it in neutral and start or stop with your foot off the clutch.

Just to make sure I'm not talking nonsense, I've just had a conversation and confirmation from my diesel workshop manager (I work in Civil Construction). The pressures you exert on the clutch with it depressed during start and stop will damage the clutch and might very well very have contributed your failures.

My car is almost the same age as yours (about three months older if I remember correctly) and I've also got a BAS map and I've not had a hint of problems with my clutch or gearbox since new...

Cheers,

Lou


I have always depressed the clutch when starting and stopping an engine (not just in my 2007 Puma, No dramas' so far), and being a diesel mechanic myself for 30 years, I have never heard of this damaging a clutch? I can't see why it would cause damage, if anything it will take some load off the starter as it's not trying to turn the transmission as well.
Would be interesting to hear your workshop managers' reasoning for his opinion.

[Ancient Mariner]

I have always depressed the clutch when starting and stopping an engine (not just in my 2007 Puma, No dramas' so far), and being a diesel mechanic myself for 30 years, I have never heard of this damaging a clutch? I can't see why it would cause damage, if anything it will take some load off the starter as it's not trying to turn the transmission as well.
Would be interesting to hear your workshop managers' reasoning for his opinion.
x2 must be what he is smoking

[Loubrey]

I'm just relaying information and advice passed on to me 20 odd years ago and that has stood me well over the years. I am not a mechanic myself, but I will have a chat with him to try and explain his reasoning although I've heard the same thing quite a few times over the years.

I have driven Defenders for 19 years now and collectively must have gotten close to covering 3/4 of a million kilometers. Sticking to the advice given to me when I was young and new to Defenders by someone who at that time had 40 years experience working on Land Rovers, I've only lost one master cylinder over this period and not a single clutch, so maybe the advice I received does hold some truth.

These guys are losing clutches one after the other which might be some deep seated inerrant problem with the mechanics of the car, but the idea with the forum is to pass on advice and if one bloke has one less failure because of passed on advice it has served its purpose...

Cheers,

Lou

[Naks]

That is possibly the worst thing you can do with a diesel engine's clutch...

I have always been told to never, never have the clutch depressed on starting and stopping. Place it in neutral and start or stop with your foot off the clutch.


Weird, that was the first thing I was told when I got my first Defender (Td5) - always start with the clutch pedal in even if in neutral.

The stopping with clutch pedal depressed in the Puma is to avoid the shudder from the engine going into the clutch plate.

[Beery]

Cranking with the clutch engaged puts a fair bit of extra load on the starter motor because it has to turn the whole gearbox as well as the engine!
Maybe not much of an issue in high ambient temps but at low temps it would make it hard work for the starter, when the battery will also be struggling.

[Loubrey]

Hi Naks,

Obviously a contentious topic, but as I've said before, I've never had to replace a clutch on any of the 5 Defenders I've owned before and I've done many hard K's building roads in Central Africa. My Tdci has relatively low km's at 60,000 but its just been back to the main dealer for a service and a health check and my transmission has absolutely no issues and everything is original as delivered.

I spoke with my workshop manager again after I got the previous comments and I have to say at this stage that I personally put a lot of stake in his opinions. He completed his apprenticeship in 1960 and he has maintained among others, many Land Rovers in his career.

He maintains that applying what he calls "Cold Pressure" to a clutch i.e pedal in or down during start up and shut down cycle is much worse than any force that can ever be transferred when the car is in neutral.

I'm not qualified enough to enter into debate on the matter, but I'll keep doing it my way and in the process not replace any clutches. You mentioned you're already looking at a new clutch early in 2015 it might be worth seeing if it lasts longer by doing it differently?

Cheers,

Lou

[Dougal]

Pushing a clutch is the same whether it's turning or not. The stress is the same. Most modern vehicles require clutch in to start.

The only thing that does wear from clutch in starting is the crank thrust bearing. But it's seldom a problem.

[PAT303]

I'm just relaying information and advice passed on to me 20 odd years ago and that has stood me well over the years. I am not a mechanic myself, but I will have a chat with him to try and explain his reasoning although I've heard the same thing quite a few times over the years.

I have driven Defenders for 19 years now and collectively must have gotten close to covering 3/4 of a million kilometers. Sticking to the advice given to me when I was young and new to Defenders by someone who at that time had 40 years experience working on Land Rovers, I've only lost one master cylinder over this period and not a single clutch, so maybe the advice I received does hold some truth.

These guys are losing clutches one after the other which might be some deep seated inerrant problem with the mechanics of the car, but the idea with the forum is to pass on advice and if one bloke has one less failure because of passed on advice it has served its purpose...

Cheers,

Lou

I never start with the clutch in and never park in gear,never replaced a gearbox and have one clutch change in the Tdi and one clutch change in the TDCi. Pat

[wrinklearthur]

Loading the clutch mechanism also loads up the thrust washers on the crank shaft.

If the engine has been sitting a while, the oil film has drained away and then the thrust washer would be working drier than if the clutch was left engaged until the engine built up oil pressure.

I vote for having the gear box in neutral and leave the clutch alone until the engine oil pressure is up.
.

[Ancient Mariner]

Valid point about the engine thrust bearings but we are talking clutch failure.
Having worked on cars earthmoving and agricultural machinery over50 years I can't recall ever replacing crank thrusts without needing to replace the other crank bearings and quite a few machines had over center clutches as well As for Cold Pressure:confused:

[Naks]

I have been leaving the clutch alone when switching on & off in the past week (in neutral), and there is a loud rattle when doing so.

If I depress the clutch pedal, there is no rattle.

It seems to me that the engine vibration definitely gets to the clutch plate even in neutral?

[Gerokent]

That vibration goes right through the gearbox also, not good for the bearings ect.

[wrinklearthur]

I wonder if your flywheel face is true?
.

[Gerokent]

I wonder if your flywheel face is true?
.


Or if it a dual mass flywheel? Those thing arn't good for much.

[BilboBoggles]

I have been leaving the clutch alone when switching on & off in the past week (in neutral), and there is a loud rattle when doing so.

If I depress the clutch pedal, there is no rattle.

It seems to me that the engine vibration definitely gets to the clutch plate even in neutral?

When your pedal is pressed in - the clutch friction plate is disconnected from the flywheel and the engine. What you describe is the classic PUMA clutch rotational damping spring wear. Once the springs wear then as you switch the engine off it will clunk clunk clunk for a short period.

If you want to hear something spectacular - try putting the transfer case in neutral and idling with the gearbox in 5th or 6th. This will also cause the clutch springs to rattle their nuts off.

The PUMA clutch can last for a very long time with these rattles OR it may fail tomorrow if a spring gets loose enough to fall out and jam the clutch.

I'd doubt starting with the clutch plate engaged puts any more strain on those clutch springs than normal driving does. Those springs are under full compression when you are applying full throttle. If the gearbox is in neutral and you start it - at most you putting the rotational momentum of the clutch friction plate and gearbox primary pinion on those springs, which really should be very tiny compared to flooring the throttle in any gear.

The noise you hear when starting a PUMA or stopping a PUMA in neutral without pushing the clutch pedal is the roll over momentum of the clutch plate keeping time with the rotational torque pulses of the engine - a diesel engine has regular power pulses, so when in neutral you get rotational acceleration and then decelaration pulses timed to the engine rotation - so those springs go into compression and then tension (by a very small amount) as the engine idles or stops. If there is any play in the springs then it rattles.

[Naks]

Or if it a dual mass flywheel? Those thing arn't good for much.


Puma has a 'normal' flywheel, not a DMF.

Don't DMFs last longer?

[BilboBoggles]

Puma has a 'normal' flywheel, not a DMF.

Don't DMFs last longer?
The td5 has a dmf. Makes the drvetrain very nice quiet and smooth. But there is a center bearing in them that wears and eventually you need to replace them any time after 150kk or even earlier is you are unlucky. The td5 flywheel is around 1k just for the part.

[n plus one]

Puma has a 'normal' flywheel, not a DMF.

Don't DMFs last longer?

I was under the impression that DMFs were typically less durable - particularly in off road conditions.

[Larry]

Not meaning to restart the 'you should or shouldn't use the clutch debate', but I was looking through the owners manual for my wife's car (Suzuki SX4) & happened to open it at the starting the engine page.
It states to start the car with the clutch depressed. So I checked the manual for my Defender, & sure enough, it says the same.
This made me feel better as I was taught this way & it is also the way we instruct in light & heavy vehicles in the NSWRFS.
I'm sure the clutch out starters will still do it their way, & I'm not saying it's wrong, but there must be a reason two manufacturers from opposite sides of the world agree on this.

[Mocky]

Probably to solve the problem of wether it is actually in gear or not from a safety point of view.

[YOLO110]

A noise from the clutch/gearbox area with the clutch out (non depressed) is usually the clutch release bearing (a ball bearing 'race' that rattles when no compressive load is applied to the bearing face). This is harmless... not all vehicles exhibit this noise, quite random really. But it is not a problem, it will not cause any issues, other than that annoying rattle with the pedal out.

Replacing the entire unit will not necessarily solve the noise! Some peeps get lucky on this!

As long as you can select gears normally and smoothly, relax, and enjoy the view!

Cheers,

Pete :>)