Suspension bush life expectancy

[TimNZ]

I know there are a lot of variables that would affect the service life of (genuine) rubber suspension bushes on a Defender, but would you change them at a specific kilometer interval, or wait until they are visibly degraded?

I'm asking because my 110 is starting to get a bit rough on the open road, (ie not freeways etc). It has done 75k km's, mostly on paved roads, but it did get a hammering last August during my Simpson Desert trip.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

[isuzurover]

IME, bubber bushes (even OE) are not what they used to be. The original bushes in my 110 lasted >200k km. The original a-frame bushes are still in there at >400k km, with no measurable deterioration last I checked.

I have swapped almost all bushes over to Super Pro, and expect them to last a longer than OEM rubber.

[as discussed via PM, the very poor handling when you drove my 110 were due to a VERY loose trailing arm nut!]

[TimNZ]

Thanks Ben, I have already had to do an A-Frame ball joint, and I suspect that it needed changing at 50k km's. I'll have to keep the bushes Genuine LR for now because of the warranty, but I'll look into the Super Pro ones for the future.

The 110 doesn't feel "sloppy" on the road, it just feels "nervous" over high speed highway bumps. Anyway the airbags are going in for the rear axle this weekend, but I don't want to mask another problem.

All the bushes and fixings appear ok, and I'd inspected everything quite throughly in the process of discovering the A-Frame ball joint had movement in it.

Cheers,

Tim

[the_preacher1973]

Thanks Ben, I have already had to do an A-Frame ball joint, and I suspect that it needed changing at 50k km's. I'll have to keep the bushes Genuine LR for now because of the warranty, but I'll look into the Super Pro ones for the future.

The 110 doesn't feel "sloppy" on the road, it just feels "nervous" over high speed highway bumps. Anyway the airbags are going in for the rear axle this weekend, but I don't want to mask another problem.

All the bushes and fixings appear ok, and I'd inspected everything quite throughly in the process of discovering the A-Frame ball joint had movement in it.

Cheers,

Tim

What you are describing sounds more like that uncontrolled floating feeling which is usually caused by worn shockies rather than bushes. Have they been replaced or do they have 75k on them?

[Judo]

What you are describing sounds more like that untrolled floating feeling which is usually caused by worn shockies rather than bushes. Have they been replaced or do they have 75k on them?
That's an interesting one. I'm in the process of changing all the bushes on my D1 to try tighten up the steering, but I'm also unsure how old my shockers are... I realise shocks aren't likely to be the cause, however front ones are potentially quite old. Rear ones are relatively new (15k), although they are LR brand and to be honest I don't have much confidence in their quality. Any comments as to the quality of LR shocks?

/end hijack

[djam1]

For standard Shocks they were pretty good being vastly superior to anything the Japanese supplied on their coil sprung vehicles.

[isuzurover]

...




The 110 doesn't feel "sloppy" on the road, it just feels "nervous" over high speed highway bumps.


...

I would check swivels preload, then shocks and shock bushes.

When I went from 235s to 255s (or 285s for a while). Handling at high speed improved significantly.

[DeanoH]

I've just replaced the trailing arm chassis mounts on my 130 and the difference this made to 'driveability' was amazing.
New ones didn't just fix the throttle steer problems but made the Defy drive like a car. Seriously. I had always assumed the Defy had to be 'driven' because it was, well a Defender. Couldn't have been more wrong. Can now confidently steer one fingered and have a (loud:)) conversation at the same time. At $14 each the best 'bang for buck' money I've spent on the Defender.

I'd also have a look at your shocker rubbers, when they wear can give you a floating unstable sort of feeling.

Deano :)

[JDNSW]

I've just replaced the trailing arm chassis mounts on my 130 and the difference this made to 'driveability' was amazing.
New ones didn't just fix the throttle steer problems but made the Defy drive like a car. Seriously. I had always assumed the Defy had to be 'driven' because it was, well a Defender. Couldn't have been more wrong. Can now confidently steer one fingered and have a (loud:)) conversation at the same time. At $14 each the best 'bang for buck' money I've spent on the Defender.

I'd also have a look at your shocker rubbers, when they wear can give you a floating unstable sort of feeling.

Deano :)

Throttle steer almost invariably means free play on at least one of the lower link (trailing arm) bushes. Last time I had it was the one on the axle, but I have had problems with the chassis ones, although not since replacing the previous owner's red ones with genuine rubber.

John

[PAT303]

Regardless of condition I'd replace all bushes/joints at 100K and do the swivel pre-load,the floating feeling sounds like shocks to me. Pat

[TimNZ]

Thanks everyone, shock bushes "look ok", but I'll change them anyway. The 110 doesn't feel floaty at all, it's more of a high frequency shake/vibration after hitting a bump. I'll also check the swivel preload.

I changed the shocks after my Simpson Desert trip as a precaution, the fronts got so hot they started squeeling! They didn't appear to fade at any time though.

[LowRanger]

I find it funny that everyone is always running around changing bushes and letting the masses know how such and such bushes made so much difference.
The last time I changed the bushes in my Defender,I took careful notice of not only the bushes,but also the bolts that were used at all the termination points.
All the bolts were carefully measured and compared against the original diameter.All the bolts showed wear,ranging from .002" through to .016".When they were put into the centre of new bushes,there was still considerable play,and under load,this play would quickly multiply and quickly compromise any new bush.
I replaced all the bolts and alleviated multiple points of excess play in the suspension.
And I do agree that bushes are not what they used to be.I can chew out a set of genuine front radius arm bushes within 1,000km.But the poor old girl does get abused more than most:twisted:

[rick130]

[snip]

All the bolts were carefully measured and compared against the original diameter.All the bolts showed wear,ranging from .002" through to .016".When they were put into the centre of new bushes,there was still considerable play,and under load,this play would quickly multiply and quickly compromise any new bush.
I replaced all the bolts and alleviated multiple points of excess play in the suspension.

[snip]

Ditto, I think I've replaced almost all the suspension bolts because of this.

I also hate using short shank (short grip length) threaded bolts in double shear, airframe bolts for example, come in 1/16" increments for a reason, but being metric we're sort of stuck.

[inside]

I have swapped almost all bushes over to Super Pro, and expect them to last a longer than OEM rubber.
I'm starting to change mine over to Superpro and I've noticed that they have some design changes over the OEM bushes.

Here you can see they put a groove to allow better flex I guess.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1221.jpg

The radius arm to diff bushes are a lot different. You can see they fill the whole void between bracket and radius arm. The OEM rubber seem not to do this and it's only the metal inner bush that touches the bracket.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1222.jpg

OEM bush
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1223.jpg

[LowRanger]

I'm starting to change mine over to Superpro and I've noticed that they have some design changes over the OEM bushes.

Here you can see they put a groove to allow better flex I guess.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1221.jpg

The radius arm to diff bushes are a lot different. You can see they fill the whole void between bracket and radius arm. The OEM rubber seem not to do this and it's only the metal inner bush that touches the bracket.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1222.jpg

OEM bush
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/1223.jpg

Yes and the SuperPro bush for radius arm to chassis allows quite a bit of flex without as much deformation.I run them on mine and like them a lot.

[mudder110]

yea im sold was going to replace all my bushes as well got poly bushes in
they have done about 20,000 hard ks up in the gulf lot of mud and water
genearel abuse they now seem to have gone hard and showing signs of cracking wasent real happy from the start with them seem way to harsh
think i will give the super pro a shot as previosly stated will replace all bolts and nuts as well thanks for the pics

[inside]

In my pics above I have installed the front radius arms to chassis bushes incorrectly. The grove needs to be on the body side, I fixed that up last weekend.

Here's some pics of the rear, they're quite a bit different from the originals. I also did the A frame ball joint while I was there.

You can just make out the top A frame to chassis bush in the distance.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/367.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/368.jpg

[TimNZ]

I changed all the suspension bushes this weekend with new genuine ones. The rear trailing arm to chassis and front radius arm to chassis bushes had badly distorted/compressed. I also found the front radius arm to axle bushes looked fine, but had gone very soft, (it was very easy to compress them with a prybar).

The 110 feels a lot better on the road, less high frequency vibration, (the best way I can think of describing it is that it felt like I had very low profile tyres fitted).

However now the car is vibrating slightly under heavy acceleration in 3rd/4th, (I can feel it through my feet). So I have parked it in the garage and opened a beer :(

Cheers,

Tim

[rick130]

[snip]

Here's some pics of the rear, they're quite a bit different from the originals.



They are, IMNSHO the most cleverly designed bush for the rear training arm I've seen.

About six or seven years ago I was talking to one of the engineers from Fulcrum/Super Pro about some other bushes and casually mentioned that I thought that particular bush was of a very smart design.
The bloke I was talking to was pretty chuffed as he'd designed it. :D

[29dinosaur]

My son changed all the suspension bushes on his 110 deefa a month or so ago. He purchased rubber ones from a supplier in Sydney. I'm not sure if they're genuine LR rubber or otherwise.. Long and short they have disintegrated in less than 1000kms... really disintegrated. Vehicle became undriveable with steering wobble. He'll probably post photos later. As $$ to get good polybushes is getting some genuine LR rubbers from LVS today.

Has anyone else experienced catastrophic failure of new bushes?

[LowRanger]

As I said in an earlier post,I can destroy OEM bushes in under 1000km easily,and bend the large washer used to mount the front radius arm to chassis bush.
If he is serious,forget the rubber bushes and fit Super Pro bushes

[110 Pete]

My son changed all the suspension bushes on his 110 deefa a month or so ago. He purchased rubber ones from a supplier in Sydney. I'm not sure if they're genuine LR rubber or otherwise.. Long and short they have disintegrated in less than 100kms... really disintegrated. Vehicle became undriveable with steering wobble. He'll probably post photos later. As $$ to get good polybushes is getting some genuine LR rubbers from LVS today.

Has anyone else experienced catastrophic failure of new bushes?

Hey guys I am 29dinosaurs' son with the flogged out bushes :P I discovered that my new "Genuine" bushes were actualy not genuine!! They were britparts (Possibly copied) but they did not have a part number on them, as in stamped on the rubber.

$110 later I have fitted my new bushes thanks to Land Vehicle Spares.

I would personally use proper genuine bushes as they flex better, are cheaper and apparently handle better on road as they aren't as harsh.

Pete

:)

p.s. I will post photos later

[29dinosaur]

As I said in an earlier post,I can destroy OEM bushes in under 1000km easily,and bend the large washer used to mount the front radius arm to chassis bush.
If he is serious,forget the rubber bushes and fit Super Pro bushes

Thanks. Super Pro sound like way to go. (In the mean time he'll run the rubber ones). Any clues as to best value source?

[dullbird]

Super cheap sell them but I bought my last 2 complete kits from a guy on Ebay in QLD he was a much better price good bloke to deal with too

[camel_landy]

I just replace them when they start to get worn and the steering gets a bit sloppy. I also tend to do the bushes on the front axle on a more regular basis than the rears...

FWIW - I only use Genuine rubber bushes. ;)

M

[JDNSW]

Many people seem not to appreciate how the original bushes work. The outer steel sleeve fits one half of the joint, and the inner steel sleeve is clamped by the centre bolt. There is no movement between the bush and any fixed component, with all movement taken by flex within the rubber. This means no wear on anything. Failure is usually the result of incorrect installation, with the centre tube either not clamped, or clamped with the suspension not under load.

John

[rick130]

Many people seem not to appreciate how the original bushes work. The outer steel sleeve fits one half of the joint, and the inner steel sleeve is clamped by the centre bolt. There is no movement between the bush and any fixed component, with all movement taken by flex within the rubber. This means no wear on anything. Failure is usually the result of incorrect installation, with the centre tube either not clamped, or clamped with the suspension not under load.

John

They fail from either the rubber taking a set when in compression (ie the radius arm or lower rear trailing arm/chassis bushes) or the rubber tears, ie. age.

In the past I've never been a fan of urethane in a rotating bush, but the Super Pro ones just plain work.
The oldest of my Super Pro bushes would've seen 200,000km easily now.

I'd wager that those advocating OE bushes have never used Super Pro, yet at a wild guess everyone advocating Super Pro have used OE rubber bushes ;)

[camel_landy]

I'd wager that those advocating OE bushes have never used Super Pro, yet at a wild guess everyone advocating Super Pro have used OE rubber bushes ;)
I've used PowerFlex but still prefer OE... ;)

M

[LowRanger]

Many people seem not to appreciate how the original bushes work. The outer steel sleeve fits one half of the joint, and the inner steel sleeve is clamped by the centre bolt. There is no movement between the bush and any fixed component, with all movement taken by flex within the rubber. This means no wear on anything. Failure is usually the result of incorrect installation, with the centre tube either not clamped, or clamped with the suspension not under load.

John

John
Another reason for bush failure is like a lot of other products,what was fitted from new in the factory,is not necessarily what is sold as O.E. replacement parts even at the dealers.Also with vehicles that have modified suspension setups,the original bushes just dont have the required flex in the rubber to allow the required movement,and hence usually become unbonded from the centre or outer tube.But I still destroy rear radius arm to chassis bushes in 1000km if I use rubber bushes,even after fitting cranked rear arms to relieve tension on the bushes.And yes I do know how to fit bushes under load.Since fitting the SuperPro bushes,I have not lost any articulation,the ride is no harsher than before,and the bushes have lasted a lot longer than anything I have previously used,and checking the bushes again over the last few days,all the SuperPro bushes are still like new,and the genuine bushes that I fitted to the diff end of the front radius arms are u/s again,I will now replace them with SuperPro and report back on how they work and last.

[inside]

Thanks. Super Pro sound like way to go. (In the mean time he'll run the rubber ones). Any clues as to best value source?
My Superpro kit was about $260 delivered from Paddocks. This was a complete bush kit including front, rear and a frame bushes. Everything except shock bushes.

[29dinosaur]

, or clamped with the suspension not under load.

John

OK please explain by what you mean by under load.

[rick130]

I've used PowerFlex but still prefer OE... ;)

M

and not Super Pro :D

[rick130]

OK please explain by what you mean by under load.

If you change a normal metalastic bush with the suspension at full droop, ie. jacked up or on a chassis hoist you stress the rubber far too much when the vehicle is at normal ride height and it will shear.

[460cixy]

OK please explain by what you mean by under load.


All suspension fittings should only be tightened at ride height ie fit it all together Wheels on the ground and tighten every thing up. Otherwise the new bushes will die

[camel_landy]

and not Super Pro :D
No but IIRC they're a very similar design... ;)

M

[JDNSW]

OK please explain by what you mean by under load.

The others have already explained (grandchildren have used all my peak data allowance). However, to reiterate:-
You need to ensure that the suspension is at about the mid point of the movement, and that the bolts are carrying the load on the side rather than relying entirely on the clamping, which is only intended to prevent any movement rather than carry the static load. You do this by putting the load on the wheels and bouncing the vehicle up and down, or even going for a short drive, with the bolts loose. Then tighten them.

Tearing of bushes will only be caused by incorrect installation (can also be damaged by pressing in by the inner tube) or by excess movement from modified suspension, or poor quality material (or deterioration due to oil etc, although this is unusual, as is sunlight deterioration). Much more common, in my experience, is failure due to the inner tube not being clamped, eventually wearing through the side of the tube, and then rapidly destroying the rubber, by which time it has usually damaged both the bolt and the cheek pieces that clamp the inner tube, and of course steering or handling will have long been compromised.

John

[jboot51]

My Superpro kit was about $260 delivered from Paddocks. This was a complete bush kit including front, rear and a frame bushes. Everything except shock bushes.

Thats 1/2 of what I paid to buy in australia. Next time will be paddocks for sure.

[460cixy]

There is one thing I have learnt tho is when I used nolathain branded radius rod bushes at the diff end is DON'T mine inside of 12 months has made the inner holes out of round in the bush the steel tube Is fine so is the new bolts I fitted at the same time and I definitely don't have heaps of flex with standard springs and ome 2" shocks that are too short

[29dinosaur]

There is one thing I have learnt tho is when I used nolathain branded radius rod bushes at the diff end is DON'T mine inside of 12 months has made the inner holes out of round in the bush the steel tube Is fine so is the new bolts I fitted at the same time and I definitely don't have heaps of flex with standard springs and ome 2" shocks that are too short
?? You may need to reword this one, as it makes no sense.

[steane]

My Superpro kit was about $260 delivered from Paddocks. This was a complete bush kit including front, rear and a frame bushes. Everything except shock bushes.

I bought mine from Paddocks as well. Cheaper to buy Aussie made overseas...:eek:

[rick130]

There is one thing I have learnt tho is when I used nolathain branded radius rod bushes at the diff end is DON'T mine inside of 12 months has made the inner holes out of round in the bush the steel tube Is fine so is the new bolts I fitted at the same time and I definitely don't have heaps of flex with standard springs and ome 2" shocks that are too short


There's urethane and there's Super Pro ;)

I used a set of custom Nolathane bushes a million years ago in my CJ Jeep in the spring shackles and hangers.

They were flogged out in six months, just too hard/no compliance for the small bushes pre '75 Jeeps run.
Looking back I was lucky I didn't bend/crack anything.

[dullbird]

yeah that is cheap from the UK..I had seen they were cheap in the UK but I didnt want to have to wait when I fitted mine..mine came in under 350 for the full set.

Supercheap wanted over 5!!!!

[PAT303]

I've always run rubber bushes after buying some red coloured POS bushes that lasted a month,I then bought super pro for the Tdi and they are going great guns after 5 years,like Rick mentioned,there's bushes and then there's super pro. Pat