Idling diesels- a BIG NO!!!

[justinc]

So many times I see people idling diesel engines, especially larger capacity like 3 litres and up, unnecessarily.

It WILL cause bore glazing, it WILL cause oil consumption, it WILL use fuel, it WILL annoy the heck out of people next to where you are parked, and it should be attracting a tax or fine.

There, that feels better already:)

Saw 3 vehicles today like that, in town, and 1 even unattended outside Repco, windows down, no one there...late model BT50 company (Not saying which one...) ute. The operator should be sternly spoken to by the people that pay for the use of his vehicle over the weekends...:mad:

JC

[djam1]

Justin
I always had it drilled into me when I used Detroit Diesels idling was a very bad thing for this very reason.
That said today I wound my winch cable back in with the TD5 idling and thought about it but still did it.

[rangieman]

So many times I see people idling diesel engines, especially larger capacity like 3 litres and up, unnecessarily.

It WILL cause bore glazing, it WILL cause oil consumption, it WILL use fuel, it WILL annoy the heck out of people next to where you are parked, and it should be attracting a tax or fine.

There, that feels better already:)

Saw 3 vehicles today like that, in town, and 1 even unattended outside Repco, windows down, no one there...late model BT50 company (Not saying which one...) ute. The operator should be sternly spoken to by the people that pay for the use of his vehicle over the weekends...:mad:

JC
Mmmm but a fast idle is ok , ;)

[Ferret]

It WILL cause bore glazing

Why is glazing bad - what does it lead too?

[LandyAndy]

The cylinder bore has a fine cross hatch finish,when it glazes up the hatching fills with carbon making a shiny surface.Now the rings dont seal correctly,oil enters the combustion area,ie oil consumption,plus combustion gasses leak past the rings into the sump loosing power.BOTH are real bad in a high comp engine ;););)
Andrew

[zedcars]

Why is glazing bad - what does it lead too?


In short excessive oil consumption/smoke emissions, crankcase oil dilution and carbon fouling on late catalyst equipped exhaust systems on some applications. (General statement)

Some work was done in the 1970's by engine manufactures to improve the cylinder bore hone to reduce the glaze effect and reduce smoke emission.
Plateau honing of the cylinder bore on production to something like 35CLA cross hatch finish, with bore conformable rings.

In a practical sense I remember one customer in Tehran had about 2000 Leyland double decker buses which they never stopped them! Simply put, if they stopped the things they would never start them again due to the bad /none existent maintenance in the organization. The winter fugg in the Narmack district at dawn was--yes 2000 Brit buses doing their best to pollute the city. The pollution levels even in the 70's exceeded UN standards; Leyland buses were doing their bit to add to the smog.

Today in the USA many places only allow a trucker to idle for 5 minutes, and the no idle laws are slowly creeping down to regular car owners, In Colorado there are city ordinances that ticket owners who idle their cars.

In many cases it makes sense. My business division installs APU's to big trucks to keep the cab/sleeper comfort systems going when the driver takes a rest for 8 hours.

Typically a big 14 litre engine uses about 4 litres of fuel/hour when left idling for the night. An APU with say a two cylinder Perkins, or three cylinder Kubota power pack uses only about a litre per hour, so savings can add up to about $1500/month in US green money.
Engine wear and tear is equally reduced and I know of one customer who has an APU on very truck in his oil field fleet. Savings alone on a Krupp Vee 12 MB powered well head crane have amounted to millions of dollars saved in repair and downtime costs.
So yes excessive idling is wasteful and bad for the engine and the environment. Not to mention your bank balance.
Dennis
zedcars

[scarry]

Something i hate as well.
I was recently at canarvon gorge,a nice quiet holiday spot in central Qld.:)

At 6.30 one morning some clown starts his noisy tour bus and lets it idle for a good 3/4 of an hour before loading it with tourists & driving off.:mad:

Hopefully those bores will glaze up:)

[justinc]

exactly dennis, as wasteful as a leaking tap...doesn't look like much but add it up over 12 hours :o

jc

[87County]

probably quite different, but there are certainly cases where 48 class locos can be idling for days.....:o

[LandyAndy]

My 12M Cat grader makes strange changes in idle speed when idleing.I had a chat with the service bloke about it,NORMAL.When cold and warming up OR if left ideling to keep the aircon in the cab going(NO,I DONT) the ECU shuts injectors off 1 at a time to load the other 5 up.
I can only believe what he says,not my domain.
Andrew

[Utemad]

The police speed camera vehicles in Qld spend their entire 4hr shifts idling to keep the batteries charged and aircon running.
Don't know if they are all diesels but some are. Not a good second hand buy then I'm guessing.

[stealth]

Is excessive idling only a problem on large engines? What about Td5's? And what is an acceptable idle time without leading to damage?

[LandyAndy]

There is a traffic control company working in town at the moment,3 hilux utes running all day to keep the warning lights burning.At least they dont sit in the vehicle.
We have a useless member of staff that will happily sit with the aircon running in summer or heater in winter,funnily enough he cant get out in time to stop the vehicles either.
I get stuck into him all the time for it.
Andrew

[isuzurover]

Is excessive idling only a problem on large engines? What about Td5's? And what is an acceptable idle time without leading to damage?

Bad for all engines.

The best rule is to shut down if you will be idling for more than 30s.

[LandyAndy]

Is excessive idling only a problem on large engines? What about Td5's? And what is an acceptable idle time without leading to damage?

TD5s are a good motor,they have a lot better oil filtration system combined with synthetic oils do a lot better than the jap diesels.Still not good practice ideling for extended time.
Andrew

[manic]

what about cold climates.. is starting the engine 10 mins before setting out to get temps up and demist a bad idea as well? I always thought getting up to temp on idle was better than driving about with a cold engine?

[bee utey]

I never slow idle an engine warm. Fast idle for 30 seconds to 1 minute, as soon as the engine runs smoothly drive off gently. Use the a/c for demisting first thing in the morning.

[manic]

Use the a/c for demisting first thing in the morning.

oh for the luxury!

[justinc]

I never cold start idle a diesel either, just fire it up, drive it straight away but allow the internals to 'normalise' before asking them to do any hard work...:cool:

cold idling allows unburnt diesel to wash down the bores, causing excessive wear.

jc

[Ferret]

So, when pumping up tyres at the end of a day in the bush, you would run the battery driven compressor with the engine off. Is that right?

[manic]

hmm ok I wont be hanging around on cold days then... no more idling for me :)

what about petrol cars? I start an old saab 900 and let it idle to temp for about 5 mins on cold mornings before I get in and drive off all toasty!

[justinc]

So, when pumping up tyres at the end of a day in the bush, you would run the battery driven compressor with the engine off. Is that right?

Yes, always have. Never been an issue, even pumped up other vehicles tyres, too. Got to have decently prepared vehicles for offroad travel, IE good batteries etc:)


JC

[Davo]

Everyone thinks they're tough truck drivers and that's what you do with your diesel when you're a truckie!

I hate it, too. Just more wankerism. There's a mechanic who's in town sometimes and will do that with his (of course) LandCruiser, leaving it run for at least twenty minutes at a time.

[ADMIRAL]

So, when pumping up tyres at the end of a day in the bush, you would run the battery driven compressor with the engine off. Is that right?

If you want the pump up to take a lot longer.

[zedcars]

My 12M Cat grader makes strange changes in idle speed when idleing.I had a chat with the service bloke about it,NORMAL.When cold and warming up OR if left ideling to keep the aircon in the cab going(NO,I DONT) the ECU shuts injectors off 1 at a time to load the other 5 up.
I can only believe what he says,not my domain.
Andrew


LandyAndy
Yes that's right!
Basically CAT knowing that idling is an issue on construction machinery has that program feature to reduce pollution.

That stated, CAT was big into over the road truck engines in the US until recently with their ACERT range of engines. Fed and californicate CARB regs made them drop out of road vehicle manufacture for NA markets.

I think what is funny these days is to listen to a Dodge or Ford PU truck with a Cummins or Powerstroke engine respectively.
Equipped with a regen exhaust system the ECM will periodically make the engine run and develop lots of heat which burns up the soot particles collected in the exhaust filter. There are warning labels about tail pipe heat & burning risk when the thing goes into regen.
I swear the thing sometimes needs a pair of wings because it starts to sound like a Boeing!:)

Here's some blub I posted on big truck APU's a while ago a bit dated for nowadays.
search APU-HQ (http://www.APU-HQ.com)
Its part of my web site Welcome to LinDen Engineering (http://www.lindenengineering.com)
Cheers Dennis
zedcars

[justinc]

Many years back I worked as a field assistant with a drilling crew, sampling RAB and RC drill holes. The Geologist used to sit in his forever idling HJ61 with the A/C running for 8 to 9 hours a day. It WAS January and Feb in the Leonora/ Laverton area of the Goldfields in WA ( quite easily 45 to 50 degrees) but we used to shake our heads in disbelief at the stupidity.

JC

[Sharkee]

Equipped with a regen exhaust system the ECM will periodically make the engine run and develop lots of heat which burns up the soot particles collected in the exhaust filter. There are warning labels about tail pipe heat & burning risk when the thing goes into regen.

Yep I was driving a truck that had one of those regen features and the exhaust gets bloody hot. I done a test on it with some dry grass in my hand and touched it on the exhaust, took less than 5 seconds for the grass to ignite. My exhaust was very low behind the front wheel. So my moral of the story is be carefull where you park anything that like that that has a low exhuast outlet and has a regen feature as you just might start a fire.

[zedcars]

JC
Well yeh they do the same thing up in Wyoming in the oil and gas fields and a recent trip up to the new oil shale fields in Willaston ND I saw the same thing.

I suppose old habits die hard but its a waste nonetheless.
One issue is the price of pump diesel!
Here in the US its hovering at about $4,02 to $4.20/gallon.
The pink tax free AG fuel is much cheaper so until the prices scoot up to about 6 bucks a gallon (as it did a few years ago) nobody gives rip about fuel savings.

One thing that is beginning to emerge is battery technology like Lithium Ion or Lithium metal hydride units (like on your Prius). These are creeping into big trucks so that the systems are all electric. Then you can program the ECM to see a fuel waste cycles or pollution period and shut it down.

I installed something like it "Low tech" in the 80's on those Tehran buses I mentioned.
Fitted on the camshaft to oil pump quill shaft extension I fitted a pulse generator. If the engine was idled for more than 15 minutes a "black box" hard wired to the pulse genny would "see" the minimum wave form and shut the engine down.
In theory a good idea I suppose but the Iranians hated it and besides they would often run the bus fleet with no decent batteries on them. Just running directly off the alternator so it no workeee mister!:angrylock:
Ist world met "third wurld" I suppose
Cheers Dennis
Zedcars

[BigJon]

For about 3.5 years I worked in mining exploration. Our work vehicles (LandCruiser Troopys with 1HZ or 1HD-FTE) would run for 10-12 hours a day with very little load (A/C and alternator loads, nothing else) and we never had oil burning or glazing issues.
I don't know if the problem is overstated or the fact that when they were driven they were driven very hard made the difference.

[zedcars]

Yep I was driving a truck that had one of those regen features and the exhaust gets bloody hot. I done a test on it with some dry grass in my hand and touched it on the exhaust, took less than 5 seconds for the grass to ignite. My exhaust was very low behind the front wheel. So my moral of the story is be carefull where you park anything that like that that has a low exhuast outlet and has a regen feature as you just might start a fire.

Yeh
I had customer get some grief from his missus who took his truck to the store and it burnt a hole in her pantyhose leg when she got a bit too close.

Getting grief from the missus, s' pose that don't happen down under or does it!!!:):o
Cheers Dennis

[Hoges]

This is a very interesting discussion to me for the fact that I was about to exit the local Officeworks carpark last week when a bloke pulled up beside me in a BMW X5 3l diesel, left the engine running, jumped out and locked the car with his remote:eek: He saw my look of disbelief then called out that "that's what 'they' recommend for short stops (5-10 mins)"... which got me thinking that if that's the case why have "they" introduced the automatic stop /start function on their X3 3l diesel (neighbour has one):p... the world is becoming confused...or I'm becoming confused with the world!:(

[Hoges]

Yeh
I had customer get some grief from his missus who took his truck to the store and it burnt a hole in her pantyhose leg when she got a bit too close.

Getting grief from the missus, s' pose that don't happen down under or does it!!!:):o
Cheers Dennis

Naaa we wouldn't know! We're are a misogynistic bunch with thick skins and selective hearing as a result of driving Land Rovers. Also it depends on whether or not it's a "near" Miss :D:angel::wasntme:

[wrinklearthur]

I always move the vehicle off quietly as soon as I have started the engine and then I don't work it hard until the temperature gauge reaches working temperature.

Stopping the engine immediately after just pulling up is bad for alloy heads, so I will let the motor run on for 5 to 10 seconds, or about the time taken to pull the hand brake on and undo the seat belt ready to get out.

By doing this for up to 30 seconds for a engine that has just finished a hard pull up hill or working hard, lets any hot spots, like the ones in the head around the injectors, to stabilize to the temperature of the coolant and the turbo has time to spin down while it's bearings still have oil pressure.

Glazing of the bore is a real problem with Farm tractor engines,especially when idling around for a hour or more doing the daily feeding out during the winter months.
It then takes a week of really solid ploughing work to settle the oil consumption back down, pulling hard with only a little of throttle response left.

Running a Diesel for half an hour to warm it up when you are having breakfast is asking for trouble from glazing in the form of high oil consumption and worn big ends.
Likewise letting a hot truck engine idle for quarter of an hour, while you slip into a shop to get a bite to eat, letting the bigend's knock with the low oil pressure caused by the oil being hot from working, is again leading to a early and expensive engine overhaul.
.

[zedcars]

Naaa we wouldn't know! We're are a misogynistic bunch with thick skins and selective hearing as a result of driving Land Rovers. Also it depends on whether or not it's a "near" Miss :D:angel::wasntme:


Hoges
Oh like my dear ol' late Dad!
A zen master of selective hearing, often burying his head in the local newspaper when the rant started!:)
Cheers Dennis

[zedcars]

I always move the vehicle off quietly as soon as I have started the engine and then I don't work it hard until the temperature gauge reaches working temperature.

Stopping the engine immediately after just pulling up is bad for alloy heads, so I will let the motor run on for 5 to 10 seconds, or about the time taken to pull the hand brake on and undo the seat belt ready to get out.

By doing this for up to 30 seconds for a engine that has just finished a hard pull up hill or working hard, lets any hot spots, like the ones in the head around the injectors, to stabilize to the temperature of the coolant and the turbo has time to spin down while it's bearings still have oil pressure.

Glazing of the bore is a real problem with Farm tractor engines,especially when idling around for a hour or more doing the daily feeding out during the winter months.
It then takes a week of really solid ploughing work to settle the oil consumption back down, pulling hard with only a little of throttle response left.

Running a Diesel for half an hour to warm it up when you are having breakfast is asking for trouble from glazing in the form of high oil consumption and worn big ends.
Likewise letting a hot truck engine idle for quarter of an hour, while you slip into a shop to get a bite to eat, letting the bigend's knock with the low oil pressure caused by the oil being hot from working, is again leading to a early and expensive engine overhaul.
.

Auther
Well AG machines have a special place in this topic because they are often left for long periods unused, a bit like marine applications then run in all sorts of different use modes. It is a hard environment for any engine but diesel engines especially in damp climates where corrosion can occur when the engine has stopped with the exhaust valve(s) open to the atmosphere.
It causes a corrosion ring to form on the cylinder wall.
In any case having been a factory zone rep in another life I always believe in regular oil samples to monitor the engine and its usages.
That thought process still goes with me when dealing with my customers.
I had a LR in the other day and the owner was mentioning that he never used any oil even after a 10K miles drain interval! Yikes!
Suspecting oil/fuel dilution I took a sample of the drainings and sent it off!

This is what i got back:-
0
DENNIS: The problem isn't fuel contamination -- the problem is antifreeze contamination. You can see the
antifreeze in the high potassium and sodium. Universal averages show typical wear levels for this type of
engine after about 3,300 miles on the oil. This oil was run longer, and normally that would cause higher iron,
but not the high copper, lead, and tin we're seeing here. These three metals show poor bearing wear, which
is the result of the antifreeze. The TBN read strong so the oil has lots of active additive in it, but for now run
4K mi on the oil until the coolant is fixed.
08/07/12
F15418 94 LANDROVER
(720) 344-1877
Diesel
Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic 5W/40
0 qts
8/14/2012
65-78
<0.1
>375
16.35
420
<0.5
0.44
0.0
0.4
0.0
<2.0
<0.6
GODLEN, CO 80407 lindenengineeringinc@yahoo.com
70
20/501
11.6-15.3
83.3
7.2
Land Rover 200 TDi
10,000 Miles
OIL
REPORT
LAB NUMBER: UNIT ID:
REPORT DATE:
CODE: PAYMENT:

This truck is coming in on Monday fro a look see.
Cheers Dennis
zedcars

[Tank]

The reason that idling is not good for the bores (glazing) is that the piston rings only seal properly when combustion gas i.e. pressure goes down behind the rings in the piston ring lands and forces the the ring to conform and seal to the bore.
At idle there is not sufficient gas pressure to seal the rings properly to the bore, which allows combustion gasses and particles to by pass the rings and enter the sump, it also causes bore wear, ring wear and piston ring groove wear, especially when the engine is cold, after a run let the engine idle for the time it takes to get out of the vehicle up to say 30 seconds, regards Frank.

[zedcars]

The reason that idling is not good for the bores (glazing) is that the piston rings only seal properly when combustion gas i.e. pressure goes down behind the rings in the piston ring lands and forces the the ring to conform and seal to the bore.
At idle there is not sufficient gas pressure to seal the rings properly to the bore, which allows combustion gasses and particles to by pass the rings and enter the sump, it also causes bore wear, ring wear and piston ring groove wear, especially when the engine is cold, after a run let the engine idle for the time it takes to get out of the vehicle up to say 30 seconds, regards Frank.

Frank
Your post just about sums it up!
When I was at Leyland Truck and Bus it was generally assumed that gazing started at about 15 minutes of idling.
Cheers Dennis

[rick130]

Modern oils and engine design have minimised the problem dramatically but, it isn't good, as everyone has stated.

I know one (now retired) truck industry owner who would warn, then fire any driver that left his DD60 series engines idle for any longer than 2.5min. (it would show on the ecu)

[123rover50]

I remember reading once that in the arctic and antarctic zones they never stopped them one they got them started. Special circumstances, I suppose it did not matter in the long run.

[bob10]

I always move the vehicle off quietly as soon as I have started the engine and then I don't work it hard until the temperature gauge reaches working temperature.

Stopping the engine immediately after just pulling up is bad for alloy heads, so I will let the motor run on for 5 to 10 seconds, or about the time taken to pull the hand brake on and undo the seat belt ready to get out.

By doing this for up to 30 seconds for a engine that has just finished a hard pull up hill or working hard, lets any hot spots, like the ones in the head around the injectors, to stabilize to the temperature of the coolant and the turbo has time to spin down while it's bearings still have oil pressure.


.
That was the advice given to me by an ancient mechanic, some years ago. So, first start in the morning is at least 30 second idle [ he mentioned getting the oil to the turbo bearings before loading it up] What about those doove-a-lackies people put on their engines to automatically idle the engine at shutdown? [ again for the protection of the turbo, I believe] How long do they allow the engine to run?. Now I'm concerned I may be doing the wrong thing.[ TD5 engine] Bob

[StephenF10]

When caravanning it's sometimes a case of either idling to warm up or working a cold motor hard. When pulling out of a caravan park into an 80 or 100 zone you don't have the luxury of "taking it easy" until the thing warms up unless you want to really annoy a string of B-double drivers.

[OffTrack]

This is a summary of a 4 month idling test done in 2006 - it seems to be done as part of an assessment of a oil bypass filter design.

The full pdf is available from here: http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/heavy/diesel_engine_idling_test.pdf

or http://avt.inl.gov/bus_idle.shtml


4. Notes on the Testing
The primary role of INL in this project was to ensure the buses were each safely idled for 1,000 hours and to collect oil samples and operation parameters, including idling times, engine speeds, and oil use. This has been accomplished. New West Technologies is analyzing the test results and their conclusions will be reported separately. However, several observations can be made about the idling project.

• The number of particles of all sizes generated during 1,000 hours of idling is less than after 5,000 miles of driving (Figure 25a)—a positive trend.
• The metals wear rate ratios of iron, lead, and copper were lower during idling (Table 12) than at 5,000 miles—a positive trend.
• Zinc, phosphorous, and calcium additive levels (Figures 22a and -c) and TBN values (Figure 23b) were all higher during idling than at 5,000 miles—a positive trend.
• Oxidation and nitration levels (Figures 24a and -b) were generally lower (improved) during idling than at 5,000 miles levels—a positive trend.
• Heptane and pentane insoluble levels (Figures 34a and -b) were lower during idling than at 5,000 miles—a positive trend.

As measured by the condition of the oils, the idling of the two bus engines appear to have been easier on the engines than during normal operations. Equating the 400 hours of idling to 12,000 miles of normal operations may not be accurate, based simply on engine revolutions, especially given that the 12,000 miles included what were likely to be heaver engine loads. Filter additives likely affected the results of the oil condition, but to what level is not known. Longer idling test hours may have provided better results, but funding did not make this possible.

When the buses were taken on their weekly road trips to blow out the carbon build-up, the bus drivers noted that the exhaust was “much more smoky” at the beginning of the runs. Also, an interesting anomaly occurred at the end of the testing. Both buses developed very rough downshifting from second to first gear. The INL bus mechanic explained this anomaly by saying the onboard computer has a learning mode, and it tries to mimic the drivers’ driving habits; also, the valves in the transmission tend to get sticky after lack of use. Both reasons are thought to have caused the very rough downshifting. After a couple of days of operation, the transmissions operated normally.

[mick88]

I can remember the diesel locomotives sitting in the loco sheds idling all day and even longer just waiting for their turn back on tracks.


Cheers, Mick.

[rick130]

I can remember the diesel locomotives sitting in the loco sheds idling all day and even longer just waiting for their turn back on tracks.


Cheers, Mick.

They still do that near here, waiting to push coal trains from the Gunnedah basin over the range into the Hunter.

[Banjo_pluker]

I am assuming that letting the turbo cool down is ok and we are only talking long time idle?

[V8Ian]

There is a cure Justin, I have used this in high horsepower diesel engines and it does everything it claims to.

http://www.costeffective.com.au/show_product.php?ItemId=25 (http://www.costeffective.com.au/show_product.php?ItemId=25)

[Homestar]

That stated, CAT was big into over the road truck engines in the US until recently with their ACERT range of engines. Fed and californicate CARB regs made them drop out of road vehicle manufacture for NA markets.


Yes - they were the only ones who couldn't meet these requirements because ACERT sucks. In reality, they (and Detroit) didn't put enough time and money into meeting the emissions requirements that every other manufacturer around the world did. They then when to the Supreme Court in the US in 06 to try and stop the introduction of those laws - and failed. After over 12 months of being fined for every non compliant engine they installed in a truck, they then hastily released the ACERT engine telling the world this would be the only way to meet future emissions requirement beyond 2014, and that all the other companies using cooled ERG, urea injection and particulate filters were barking up the wrong tree. A couple of weeks after this, Mercedes, Cummins and Volvo all announced that they had a 2014 compliant engine tested and ready.

This is what convinced CAT to put all their efforts into what they do best and concentrate on the off highway market - they were the only ones not to be able to catch up - ACERT was/is an absolute dog, and had no future.

This has left a big hole on the on highway market, which of course others are stoked about, particularly Cummins - they have done very well out of it.

[disco gazza]

When I start up my tdi in the morning or afternoon,It gets moved immediately.
Idle out of the carport,idleing but moving up to the gate-open gate- idle out-close gate.Im off.All this would take about 1-2 minutes max.
Much the same when Im coming home.When I turn into my street,I let it coast(still in gear) to my place-stop-open gate-idle in-close gate-idle up and into carport,shut down.
The main drag which is 1-2 minutes from my place is 80kph zone so it can get a bit hairy sometimes when I pull out and theres a few cars come round the bend just before my street doing 80+ and I'm slowly getting up to speed..lol

Hope I'm not doing any thing wrong.

cheers

[LandyAndy]

There is a cure Justin, I have used this in high horsepower diesel engines and it does everything it claims to.

http://www.costeffective.com.au/show_product.php?ItemId=25 (http://www.costeffective.com.au/show_product.php?ItemId=25)

Thats a cure for poorly designed japper crapper diesels.
I ran it in our trytoo,and the HZJ Landcruiser and GU Patrol diesels when I was working on the farm.
It works,really well.They shouldnt glaze up so easily and quickly.
When my good mate Derby Dan left Williams to return to Derby we spent a day servicing his HZJ Cruiser,I had some cleanpower left which isnt required in a TD5 so I dosed it to the heavy first time dose.He rang me when he got to Meekathara wanting to know what I treated the motor with,more power towing the boat and ute full of gear than it ever had empty and its love for oil stopped.
He continued to use the stuff afterwards,swears by it now.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

When I start up my tdi in the morning or afternoon,It gets moved immediately.
Idle out of the carport,idleing but moving up to the gate-open gate- idle out-close gate.Im off.All this would take about 1-2 minutes max.
Much the same when Im coming home.When I turn into my street,I let it coast(still in gear) to my place-stop-open gate-idle in-close gate-idle up and into carport,shut down.
The main drag which is 1-2 minutes from my place is 80kph zone so it can get a bit hairy sometimes when I pull out and theres a few cars come round the bend just before my street doing 80+ and I'm slowly getting up to speed..lol

Hope I'm not doing any thing wrong.

cheers

IS ALL GOOD;);););)
Andrew

[Tombie]

Why is glazing bad - what does it lead too?

Addiction to sweet pastries :cool: :wasntme:

[Tombie]

That was the advice given to me by an ancient mechanic, some years ago. So, first start in the morning is at least 30 second idle [ he mentioned getting the oil to the turbo bearings before loading it up] What about those doove-a-lackies people put on their engines to automatically idle the engine at shutdown? [ again for the protection of the turbo, I believe] How long do they allow the engine to run?. Now I'm concerned I may be doing the wrong thing.[ TD5 engine] Bob

Funny people old mechanics ;)

Oil to the turbo... Oil is there in well under 5 seconds :D otherwise your oil-bearing turbo would be stuffed..


Even some relatively new mechanics can have old ideas imprinted on them by old trainers...


:):D

[Tombie]

When caravanning it's sometimes a case of either idling to warm up or working a cold motor hard. When pulling out of a caravan park into an 80 or 100 zone you don't have the luxury of "taking it easy" until the thing warms up unless you want to really annoy a string of B-double drivers.

Come on mate.... By that thinking theres 400 B doubles a minute up the highway here ;)

2500kg boat goes on the back, then vehicle tows straight out onto highway and up to speed....

Doesn't get pushed to break-neck acceleration, but normal operation... Wont hurt it a bit...

[uninformed]

I guess Im a bit anal, but my morning method (with 1.8t trailer hooked up) is. Glow, start and let idle for 10-15 seconds. Select N in T/case and 2nd in gearbox, release clutch. High Idle for 30-60seconds. Re-engage T/case, SLOWLY pull away and drive in 2nd for the first 100m. Slow accleration after that for the next km. Im normally out the door at 5:30-6:00 so traffic isnt to bad.

[PAT303]

For about 3.5 years I worked in mining exploration. Our work vehicles (LandCruiser Troopys with 1HZ or 1HD-FTE) would run for 10-12 hours a day with very little load (A/C and alternator loads, nothing else) and we never had oil burning or glazing issues.
I don't know if the problem is overstated or the fact that when they were driven they were driven very hard made the difference.

Same here,everyone up here idles thier engines with the A/C on in summer because you'll die if you don't,I've idled every diesel I've owned and never glazed a bore,the Tdi,Td6 and TDCi have never suffered in any way because of it. Pat

[Tombie]

Same here,everyone up here idles thier engines with the A/C on in summer because you'll die if you don't,I've idled every diesel I've owned and never glazed a bore,the Tdi,Td6 and TDCi have never suffered in any way because of it. Pat

I believe the use the vehicles get prevents it, idle for ages, then revved and loaded up clears them out...

Not optimal, but with our exploration vehicles - 100,000km and bye bye vehicle anyway....

[scarry]

You guys are worrying to much about nothing.;)

Just get in the thing,petrol or diesel & drive it sensibly until it warms up & then flog it if you want/need to.

More importantly,get it serviced correctly,use the correct fluids,and do it on time.

i have never had an LR use any oil between services,i generally don't flog them,just drive them sensibly.

Many of them also did a fair bit of tottering & idling around paddocks on the farm which also didn't seem to effect them.

[dullbird]

what I dont get is people saying shouldnt let it idle for longer than 30s another said people would of been fired for ideling longer than 2.5mins....

Don't any of you have traffic lights?:D

I can tell you now I can sit at some lights for more than a min or two at big junctions.

what do you do in this instance.

also offroading a lot of that can be done at idle or are you talking about idle without anything movement of the vehicle ie static?

[superquag]

Don't any of you have traffic lights?:D

I can tell you now I can sit at some lights for more than a min or two at big junctions.



When I was last in Adelaide, I could'nt believe the cycle times at some major intersections... Engine used to carbon up with the idling...:eek:

[uninformed]

You do realise you have an idle control under your right foot don't you.....

[Davo]

All fair enough, but I think the point was that people are just leaving the things to idle as if they were roadtrains cooling down when they're actually at the shops or yakking with someone. In other words, for no reason at all.

[460cixy]

My ute must love me idling around in 1st and 2nd gear at minus 6 spot lighting all night

[Tank]

You guys are worrying to much about nothing.;)

Just get in the thing,petrol or diesel & drive it sensibly until it warms up & then flog it if you want/need to.

More importantly,get it serviced correctly,use the correct fluids,and do it on time.

i have never had an LR use any oil between services,i generally don't flog them,just drive them sensibly.

Many of them also did a fair bit of tottering & idling around paddocks on the farm which also didn't seem to effect them.
Scarry Quote: "i have never had an LR use any oil between services"

Not so, all engines use oil between changes.
If you could remove every speck of that black **** from your oil you would notice that the clean oil left would be at a lower level.
Oil gets burnt on hot cylinder walls and turns into carbon which ends up in your oil, oil gets turned into mist and ends up burnt in the combustion chambers via PCV/Breather, thru turbo/Intercooler and diesel fuel that gets past the rings when Idling also ends up in the oil.
So if your LR used NO oil your dipstick would be showing around an inch higher than full at your next oil change, all engines use oil between changes it is just replaced with crap, Regards Frank.

[wrinklearthur]

Scarry Quote: "i have never had an LR use any oil between services"

Not so, all engines use oil between changes.
If you could remove every speck of that black **** from your oil you would notice that the clean oil left would be at a lower level.
Oil gets burnt on hot cylinder walls and turns into carbon which ends up in your oil, oil gets turned into mist and ends up burnt in the combustion chambers via PCV/Breather, thru turbo/Intercooler and diesel fuel that gets past the rings when Idling also ends up in the oil.
So if your LR used NO oil your dipstick would be showing around an inch higher than full at your next oil change, all engines use oil between changes it is just replaced with crap, Regards Frank.

I agree whole heartily with you on this Tank. A good motor should drop the oil level between changes.
The term 'doesn't use oil' to me means that the engine hasn't consumed large amounts requiring regular top up's between changes.

Less crap to cause wear, is controlled by regular oil and filter changes.

I like to change both the filter and the oil at the following intervals.

250 hours or every twelfth month in a tractor/stationary engine.

Between 5 to 7 thousand kilometres in a diesel, 8 to 10 thousand kilometres for a petrol engine or every twelfth month which ever comes first.

As I have not had the luxury of using a oil sampling service.
Is not using a sampling service a false economy?

Be sure to write the date and hours/distance down, along with any repairs in a log, to keep track of the oil change intervals.
.

[rick130]

[snip]

Is not using a sampling service a false economy?

[snip]
.

IMO no, as you establish trends and can see when things aren't quite right and mitigate against a potential disaster.

Testing also helped helped eight years ago when I was able to take our Patrol out to 20,000km OCI's from the Nissan mandated 5,000km, just from deferring the down time of having to do an oil change every two and a half to three weeks.

Of course nothing can forestall a sudden catastrophic failure of any component either.

[zedcars]

Yes - they were the only ones who couldn't meet these requirements because ACERT sucks. In reality, they (and Detroit) didn't put enough time and money into meeting the emissions requirements that every other manufacturer around the world did. They then when to the Supreme Court in the US in 06 to try and stop the introduction of those laws - and failed. After over 12 months of being fined for every non compliant engine they installed in a truck, they then hastily released the ACERT engine telling the world this would be the only way to meet future emissions requirement beyond 2014, and that all the other companies using cooled ERG, urea injection and particulate filters were barking up the wrong tree. A couple of weeks after this, Mercedes, Cummins and Volvo all announced that they had a 2014 compliant engine tested and ready.

This is what convinced CAT to put all their efforts into what they do best and concentrate on the off highway market - they were the only ones not to be able to catch up - ACERT was/is an absolute dog, and had no future.

This has left a big hole on the on highway market, which of course others are stoked about, particularly Cummins - they have done very well out of it.


bacicat2000

Yes I am inclined to agree with you.

I suppose in the ultimo I think Cat at board level probably took a decision to concentrate on core business and maximize their profits centered on established & growing export targets where emissions were less of a cost development overhead.

In any case the truck chassis manufactures often tend to be in bed with their favorite makers. No need to mention Freightliner who are owned by MB, but the rest tend to err towards Cummins and the ISX range as you have pointed out. For Volvo in the US its their own or Cummins ISX for the most part, and then there is IH, (Navistar) the "Cornbinder" who fits anything, well almost anything including their own Maxiforce!

Nevertheless I have always had a soft spot for certain engines that had potential, Cat for me always sounded like a well oiled machine, like the Gardner 6Lx's & 8Lxb's having found lots of devotees in your part of the world in boats. Both these makes I tore of skin as an apprentice fixing them.
Cheers Dennis
zedcars

[uninformed]

Or the operator........

[PAT303]

You guys are worrying to much about nothing.;)

Just get in the thing,petrol or diesel & drive it sensibly until it warms up & then flog it if you want/need to.

More importantly,get it serviced correctly,use the correct fluids,and do it on time.

i have never had an LR use any oil between services,i generally don't flog them,just drive them sensibly.

Many of them also did a fair bit of tottering & idling around paddocks on the farm which also didn't seem to effect them.

Thats always been my arguement,people worry about stupid little things like idleing yet don't worry about thier rads blocking up,don't rotate tyres or check under the bonnet to keep an eye on things,the stuff that keeps thier vehicles healthy. Pat

[PAT303]

IMO no, as you establish trends and can see when things aren't quite right and mitigate against a potential disaster.

Testing also helped helped eight years ago when I was able to take our Patrol out to 20,000km OCI's from the Nissan mandated 5,000km, just from deferring the down time of having to do an oil change every two and a half to three weeks.

Of course nothing can forestall a sudden catastrophic failure of any component either.

It also gives people who don't know any better something to worry about. Pat

[uninformed]

thanks Pat, now I have to worry about that too......jebus :D

[weeds]

all good in theory but...........what about when you are in peak hour traffic everyday. i am about to leave work and i will have a nuber of times where i will be idling for minutes on end waitng for the traffic to move.....

will be back on the pushie tomorrow :p

[uninformed]

the AC may well be just enough to make the difference. I know you may say no good in winter, but I have been told that they shoudl get run some all year otherwise the seals dry out???

If I feel im sitting to long I just bring the revs up a touch with my RIGHT FOOT......

[Sharkee]

Yeh
Getting grief from the missus, s' pose that don't happen down under or does it!!!:):o
Cheers Dennis

:lol2: I think it was invented here in Aus.
Errrr whats that dear :angel::bat: :(

[Davo]

Nah, so far it's been traced back to cave paintings from 20,000BC.

[jakeslouw]

If you think the traffic has caused some glazing while idling, THEN TAKE IT FOR A GOOD HARD RUN ON THE WEEKEND! Problem solved! :p

Apart from that I reckon you're all debating about nothing.

[roverrescue]

"I've idled every diesel I've owned and never glazed a bore,the Tdi,Td6 and TDCi have never suffered in any way because of it. Pat"

Pat - I thought your tdi has 2 568 987km of trouble free motoring and has never had the head off - how do you know it hasnt glazed a bore ;)

The 300 I just pulled out from my ex-forestry 130 has bores that are machine polished! The pistons slap around like nobodies business (not due to idling but as it has no air filter in the canister when I bought it - clever move!) I changed the HG just after I bought it and found the damage - I got it cheap so was expected!
Anyway - Ive driven it for 30kkm like that it uses oil but still pulls hard and unless I showed a photo of the pots many people wouldnt know that it had "glazed bores"

I still tend to agree with you that worrying about idling is a waste of energy - just use that anxiety to remember to put an airfilter back in the can next service ;) !!

Steve

[PAT303]

Because it doesn't have blowby and doesn't use oil. Pat

[rick130]

It also gives people who don't know any better something to worry about. Pat

Yep, the obsessive/compulsives among us just love to, well, obsess :D

FWIW I haven't had an oil test down for years, or at least since I did the big ends in the 'fender. (3+ years ?)

Just couldn't be arsed these days, but I can definitely see the advantages for big fleets.

[uninformed]

Yep, the obsessive/compulsives among us just love to, well, obsess :D

FWIW I haven't had an oil test down for years, or at least since I did the big ends in the 'fender. (3+ years ?)

Just couldn't be arsed these days, but I can definitely see the advantages for big fleets.

youve change man!!! I thought I knew you, but youve changed......:D

[BreakingBad]

I'm no mechanic, in fact I'm not very mechanically minded at all but so far I understand that;

Idling causes glazing of the bores.
The larger the engine the more likely idling will glaze the bores.
Cold idling is worse than warm/hot idling.
Working the engine hard will remove glazing.

If working an engine hard removes glazing why is idling an issue? Is there a point where glazing cannot be removed? eg: glazing becomes to thick? Or is it more of a matter that regular minimal glazing and subsequent removal causes wear on the bores?

[PAT303]

It's an issue for people who like to worry about nothing,like posted above you idle for hours per month sitting in traffic,the reason stop/start vehicles are around.If people worried about important things like proper servicing as much as piontless things like idleing to much half the issue's they have wouldn't happen. Pat

[isuzurover]

It's an issue for people who like to worry about nothing,like posted above you idle for hours per month sitting in traffic,the reason stop/start vehicles are around.If people worried about important things like proper servicing as much as piontless things like idleing to much half the issue's they have wouldn't happen. Pat

All fair enough, but [as well as proper servicing and maintenance] if you minimise idle time it will mean you save money on fuel AND help your engine!

[PAT303]

I can just imagine the outcome of a heap of LR drivers turning their engines off at the lights to save fuel and money:eek:. Pat

[rick130]

I can just imagine the outcome of a heap of LR drivers turning their engines off at the lights to save fuel and money:eek:. Pat

Hahahahaha....













Oops, I do, or at least at stuff like roadworks :eek:

[rick130]

youve change man!!! I thought I knew you, but youve changed......:D




Aum shanti shanti shanti ! http://community.secondlife.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/26719i4D6A47FE90514E58/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

[jakeslouw]

Hahahahaha....

Oops, I do, or at least at stuff like roadworks :eek:

And so do I regardless of petrol or diesel.

But the debate was whether idling was bad for a diesel.

The short and simple answer is YES MAYBE IF YOU LEAVE IT IDLING OUTSIDE ALL DAY, but none of us will do that.

5 minutes in the morning on a cold day? Please, that carbon will be gone within 20kms especially if you run a nice 2SO mix.

[isuzurover]

...especially if you run a nice 2SO mix.

Please, not that debate again... If anything adding 2 stroke to your fuel would increase the chances of glazing....

[jakeslouw]

Please, not that debate again... If anything adding 2 stroke to your fuel would increase the chances of glazing....

Yes please let's not because you can't provide any proof that it is harmful in a diesel engine. I have seen photos of test engines over here that have less EGR and DPF deposits, cleaner valves, cleaner exhaust ports, etc etc.

German taxi drivers have been following this practice on Merc sedans for decades with no negative issues and only positive results.

I've used it and documented improved fuel consumption and reduced exhaust smoke.

But you do as you wish.

[isuzurover]

...you can't provide any proof that it is harmful in a diesel engine.

...

I've used it and documented improved fuel consumption and reduced exhaust smoke.

But you do as you wish.

Just as you cannot provide any proof, only anecdotal heresay and subjective (qualitative) evidence - which is not proof.

Many have reported [on here] that they have found it made no difference.

I am not saying it will do any damage to your engine, and it will possibly improve fuel lubricity, but how can it possibly reduce emissions or reduce glazing???

[bob10]

Well my Missus reckons I've been idle most of our married life, and I've taken in some rocket fuel that glazed me, so my disco & I have something in common, Bob :twobeers:

[LandyAndy]

I watched our MOST USELESS employee sit in our Canter crew cab truck all day with the motor running to keep the heater running whilst he was doing traffic control.He thinks he got away with it,and did today.The fool has been told not to do it,does he think I cant see the exhaust pipe rattling around????
The Canter is ill,250000ks of ABUSE,you should have seen the smoke screen it left when he went home,didnt clear to he hit 4th gear;);););)
Andrew

[Bigbjorn]

Many commercial and industrial diesel engine applications require the engine to idle for long periods.

Doesn't seem to do them any harm.

I do wonder if modern passenger car diesel engines are built to the same standards of durability and reliability as those expected of an industrial engine.

[vnx205]

Many commercial and industrial diesel engine applications require the engine to idle for long periods.

Doesn't seem to do them any harm.

I do wonder if modern passenger car diesel engines are built to the same standards of durability and reliability as those expected of an industrial engine.

Is it partly that modern passenger car diesels are expected to operate at levels of efficiency not expected of industrial engines? Maybe increased power output and fuel efficiency comes at a cost.

[uninformed]

Many commercial and industrial diesel engine applications require the engine to idle for long periods.

Doesn't seem to do them any harm.

I do wonder if modern passenger car diesel engines are built to the same standards of durability and reliability as those expected of an industrial engine.

I thought I had read from you in the past Brian, about a mate of yours that had a trucking company that would rake over the coals guys that let his trucks idle over 2 mins or so???

[Bigbjorn]

I thought I had read from you in the past Brian, about a mate of yours that had a trucking company that would rake over the coals guys that let his trucks idle over 2 mins or so???

More to do with fuel usage at $1.50 and upwards. Leaving the engine run to provide a/c whilst the aimer was in the bunk or awaiting the customer's pleasure to load or unload sometimes for hours at a time. Lots of heavy prime movers these days have a Briggs to run the a/c whilst stationary. Badly worn engines may suffer oil dilution from excess idling. Everyone in heavy diesel applications should be in an oil analysis programme. Detroit Diesel used to run one that told you if you should change oil based on analysis not on time or distance.

Fact remains that, good or bad, many industrial applications require prolonged idling.

[Bigbjorn]

Is it partly that modern passenger car diesels are expected to operate at levels of efficiency not expected of industrial engines? Maybe increased power output and fuel efficiency comes at a cost.


More likely that the manufacturer is concious of the fact that passenger vehicles on average have a relatively short life before returning to the blast furnaces so don't need to be as sturdily built as an industrial engine. Industrial users have a vested interest in fuel efficiency more so than the owner of a family beater.

In the 70's a US manufacturer did an extensive survey to determine the in-service life of cars. They believed that they were maybe making them better than they needed to be. They came up with figures that showed cars were being scrapped or dumped in the vicinity of 90,000 to 120,000 miles on average. I know yanks turn their cars over more frequently than anyone else in the world. The recommendation was that the power trains should be designed for an expected average life of 100,000 miles without overhaul. I have no idea what came of this. Perhaps a dose of top floor cowardice (not common sense as this always seems lacking on the executive floors of any organisation) or horror amongst the PR flacks buried the survey.

Engines in heavy trucks are expected to do a couple of million kilos before an in-frame overhaul nowadays with better tolerances, metallurgy, oils, bearings, filters. Forty years ago expectations from a Detroit Diesel in heavy trucks were 600,000 to 1,000,000 miles (not kilos) before an in-frame job. My last White Road Boss is still pulling triple side tippers of gravel in the Northern Territory at 32 years old. Still has the original engine number, just had a few overhauls and a tickle up to 545 hp @ 2300. No idea of how many k's on the vehicle, millions.

[Fluids]

On the subject of idle time ...

Did a trip to Sydney last week in the wifes new Subaru Impreza. It has this new fangled Auto Stop function which shuts down the engine when you stop at the lights/intersection (wheels straight, gear stick in N, foot on the brake - it stops - but will restart automatically if the A/C or heater can't maintain the cab temp' whilst stopped, or for any other reason the ECU determines it should restart).

From the end of the F3, across to the Marriot at Hyde Park, after morning peak hour, the trip computer display showed we saved 18min idling time with the engine shut down ... and the returm trip out to the F3 following morning at 9a saved us 12min idling time .... that's 30min running time & the required fuel saved for a trip in to/out of the city from the F3 :eek:

If I lived in Sydney and commuted that same route 5 days per week, that's 2.5Hrs saved every week, or 10Hrs per month. Impressive.

I can see the merit in it ... but I reckon the starter motor & battery life will take a massive hit ! The feature can be manually switched off if required.

Where we live, the Auto Stop feature never seems to kick in.

[Fluids]

... and on a topic related note ...

If I'm camping, and after 2-3 days I want to top up my batteries, using the alternator driven by the Td5 in the disco .... a 20-40min run is required (batteries are yellow optimas).

A - Don't do it
B - Do it, but at a fast idle (1500-1800rpm)
C - Don't be worried about it as it's only done very infrequently
D - Go for a drive

In order of A thru D above ?

(We don't carry solar or other charging equipment)