True Trac or Detroit Locker

[butundede]

I have decided on getting a rear locker for the Sals that JC found for me:D, chatting to him yesterday about True Tracs and Detroit Lockers, i'm looking for peoples experience with either of these, preferably behing a Td5. I don't really want a ARB air locker, I think they are more complicated than I need it to be. I am building up the 110 into a reliable tourer, possibly towing a camp trailer in the future. Oh and I only want a rear locker.

Cheers Bob.

[Chucaro]

Why not a TrueTrac at the front and Detroit in the rear?
Just go one stage at the time, first get the Detroit and top quality axles for the rear and then do the front.
It will be a fantastic set up ;)

[butundede]

Planning on Maxi rear axles and flanges, a bit worried about a true trac in the front, with the chip and intercooler upgrade torqe steer could be a problem?

[isuzutoo-eh]

I have a Detroit in the rear and an Ashcroft ATB (basically a better Trutrac) in the front of my County.
By far the Detroit is the biggest bang for buck, it is easier (cheaper) to install as you don't upset the crown wheel or bearings, and on road manners aren't really noticeably different 99.9% of the time.
The trutrac is a lot gentler on the drive train though and will be completely seamless on road.
I haven't tried mine is sand yet but i've been told Detroits like to dig holes quickly whereas TTs are the ants' pants on sand. Pretty much everywhere else the Detroit excels.

The ATB in the front of my County made the steering feel heavy for about a kilometre, but can still steer it with one finger on the wheel anyway.

[Chucaro]

Planning on Maxi rear axles and flanges, a bit worried about a true trac in the front, with the chip and intercooler upgrade torqe steer could be a problem?

Send an email to Keith (Keith@rovingtracks.com) he have prepared high performance Discos in USA and he know the product very well. He also is a member here.

[Bigbjorn]

Chucaro's recommendation of True Trac front and Detroit Locker rear is the way to go.

Detroit Lockers are foolproof. I have had them in three vehicles, a Dodge Challenger Hemi, A Holden HT 350GTS, and a White Road Boss that had three of them in the tandem drive rear axles. One in each diff and one in the power divider. The current versions are nowhere near as noisy around slow corners as in years gone by.

[DeanoH]

Don't know where or if Dana Spicer POWR-LOK LSD's fit into the equation.
I'm told the Sals is a 'metric' copy of the Dana 60 so assume it would fit OK.
I've got these in either end of the OKA (Dana 60 / Dana 70) and they are absolutely seamless in operation both on and off road. :D
Smooth, quiet, not 'grabby' or chattery and definitely not a PITA like air lockers. No vices at all as far as I can tell, definitely set and forget.
We have done >20K Km with them from bitumen highway to the CSR and lots in between. Can definitely recommend them. :)

Deano :)

[ugu80]

I've had a detroit locker in the back of my 130 for a while now, after a few years with just this I put a detroit LSD in the front.

Heavy duty drive flanges and axles are essential. Whether you get the locker or lsd in the rear, it will be a revelation. However, the percentage gain in ability is much less with the lsd in the front, it is a little bit better but unless you plan exploring a lot of rugged fire trails I'd say save your money. If you are looking at a mostly touring rig, stick to rear upgrade only which will give you more predictable and lighter steering.

[butundede]

Thanks for the advice so far, keen to hear about experiences with these diffs in sand, corrugations, gravel, bull dust, slop, etc. Pros and cons on the different surfaces. Also on steep side slopes?
And the true trac coupled with traction control, how well does it work?

Cheers Bob.

[isuzutoo-eh]

It takes a pretty extreme combination of slop and side slope for a Detroit locker to be a cur. I tend to do some reasonably difficult tracks and only once have I seen a locker be a disadvantage, having said that it required a locker to get that far anyway.

[butundede]

Thats why I only really want a rear locker, if I have front and rear I will end up in more trouble than I really want to be in. :(

[rick130]

Don't know where or if Dana Spicer POWR-LOK LSD's fit into the equation.
I'm told the Sals is a 'metric' copy of the Dana 60 so assume it would fit OK.
I've got these in either end of the OKA (Dana 60 / Dana 70) and they are absolutely seamless in operation both on and off road. :D
Smooth, quiet, not 'grabby' or chattery and definitely not a PITA like air lockers. No vices at all as far as I can tell, definitely set and forget.
We have done >20K Km with them from bitumen highway to the CSR and lots in between. Can definitely recommend them. :)

Deano :)

The Powr-lok is a clutch type HD LSD ;)

[Dockstrada]

Don't the late model Defenders have T/C I know T/C works great in the L/Cruiser off road , it must be as good if not better on the Defender .

I have watched a few vids on youtube talking how good the T/C is on the Defender , or is it a bad substitute for a diff lock ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=2LH7CmJOqF4&NR=1


Land Rover Philippines Defender 90 ETC Demo - YouTube

Defender 90 Anti Stall and ETC Demo - YouTube

[JC Rover]

I've heard the true trac works very well with traction control. I'm about to get one for the rear Sals on the defender. Most of my off road driving is on sand. Where is the best place to get one? USA?

Jono

[butundede]

I've heard the true trac works very well with traction control. I'm about to get one for the rear Sals on the defender. Most of my off road driving is on sand. Where is the best place to get one? USA?

Jono

I have also heard the same, but has someone out there got one in the back of there traction control equipped defender?

Cheers Bob.

[djam1]

I have a Detroit Locker in one of my Land Rovers and an ARB in the other.
The Detroit is a pain on side slopes and introduces a lot of backlash into the drive train.
The ARB I have never had issues with and it seems to be a better idea on a tourer.
That said I do like the Detroit just not its bad habits

[Dockstrada]

I've heard the true trac works very well with traction control. I'm about to get one for the rear Sals on the defender. Most of my off road driving is on sand. Where is the best place to get one? USA?

Jono

You could try this mob , I bought a Truetrac for my Torana 9" im buliding .


Best you flick them an email and ask, they are great .
Eaton Detroit Truetrac Differentials - Land Rover Manufacturer of Axle - SummitRacing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/search/Brand/Detroit-Locker/Product-Line/Eaton-Detroit-Truetrac-Differentials/Manufacturer-of-Axle/Land-Rover/?Ns=Rank%7cAsc&autoview=SKU)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/553.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/554.jpg

[ugu80]

The Detroit introduces a lot of backlash into the drive train.
How old is your Detroit? I have the latest model and it is almost unnoticeable in operation. I had it fitted the at a LR specialist who commented that he could see the internal differences from the older models to quieten and smooth its operation. However, even the new ones will have a lot of backlash if not properly shimmed, which is why I got a LR specialist to fit it.

[ugu80]

Butundede, the true trac in the front will tend to make the steering want to plough on straight ahead in soft stuff, e.g. sand, river stones. It works best over uneven ground, e.g. rocky hills or rutted trails. I have experience with just the rear locker and then the front true trac and I would recommend, if touring is your main aim, to just have the rear (locker or true trac) fitted.

I remember many moons ago, when the Range Rover first came out with electronic traction control, it was fitted only to the rear axle. When asked why not also to the front the official Land Rover reply was that 70% of drive was from the rear, therefore fitting it to the front would be of minimal benefit. Make of it what you will.

[Andrew Morris]

Try Great Basin Rovers in Utah. Best prices I've yet seen for tru-trac or Detroit locker. And good freight rates!

www.gbrutah.com

[djam1]

The Detroit is about 6 years old and if you have a look at the design you will ALWAYS get more backlash than a standard diff centre, all in a driveline that already has too much.

This is a quote from the Detroit Manual

"Backlash or slack between the driving and driven clutch teeth is an inherent part of the NoSPIN and necessary to permit automatic operation when driving in forward and reverse. The total backlash in the driveline is increased by the amount of the reduction between the ring gear and pinion. If the ring gear pinion ration is 5 to 1, the total backlash in the drivetrain with the NoSPIN would be about 30° . This in turn is increased by clearances between planetary gear, sliding splines, and the ring and pinion gear. We feel that the total driveline slack can amount to as much as 1/4th turn of the driveline without being abnormal, but if it exceeds ¼ turn, other parts in the drivetrain could be checked. Further clarification of operational and performance characteristics is available through Technical Bulliten No. 81-1044. A copy is available by writing to our marketing department."

That said my LT95 is due for a reshim so its probably more noticeable.
Where is Wagoo he knows more about these things than most?


How old is your Detroit? I have the latest model and it is almost unnoticeable in operation. I had it fitted the at a LR specialist who commented that he could see the internal differences from the older models to quieten and smooth its operation. However, even the new ones will have a lot of backlash if not properly shimmed, which is why I got a LR specialist to fit it.

[Iain_B]

I just bought an Ashcroft ATB from LRA ( and another one coming over for the front) for my Defender ( adding some Maxidrive axles and flange for the rear since I have gone through one set already under warranty)

I have Trutracks both front and rear on my Discovery, and they are great - really transformed the off road ability.

The traction control on the Defender works well, but I found going up a few steep creek exits last year on the OTT was more difficult than I found doing worse and slipperier slopes than in the Discovery.

This years trip has the potential to be in some loose and slippery conditions, so the Ashcrofts are an insurance policy, and at $777 including shipping and the adaptor plate for the diff, I think it's good value. You may get them cheaper direct from Ashcroft, but they were out of stock.

[101 Ron]

I am a great fan of the detroit.
You must up grade rear drive flanges and axles.
I have been running the detroit in the back of my 101 for many years now and also have a ARB in the front.
The 101 Landies wheel base is 101 inches verses 127 inches of the defender both running a salisbury.
The 101 has no power steering with that shorter wheel base and the 101 will tow/carry a heavier load off road.
I run 36 inch simex.
Both vehicles are constant 4WD.

What I am getting to is if a vehicle is going to feel any bad effects between the two vehicles with a detroit in the back it will be the 101.
To date the detroit has been barely noticeable except for extra traction.
The detroit doesnt dig holes in the sand or cause the vehicle to slip side ways on a slope........why would it as it is locked just the same as a manual locker when off road.
Any effects of digging in or going side ways is way beyond the point of where you would go with open diffs and is the same effect of a vehicle at its limits with a ARB/TJM locker ect.
I regularly tow heavy loads though round abouts and up camberwarra MT hair pins on the stubbie 101 with not problems or ill effects.
Constant 4WD system is the key on road as the drive of the front diff hides any presence of the detroit in the rear.
Most people who knock the detroit have had early versions and in part time 4WD systems......ie series 3 landy not so good.
Defender with saisbury......perfect.
The detroit is a easy fit in the salisbury.
Ron
Ps
Yes there is some extra back lash put in the system, but not a great deal and not worth worrying about.
No difference to tyre wear or anything like that, but rear tyre pressures will need to be kept equal as they should be any how or the vehicle may want to pull to one side in the steering on a tarred road.......good tyre pressures and no issuses.

[ugu80]

The Detroit is about 6 years old and if you have a look at the design you will ALWAYS get more backlash than a standard diff centre, all in a driveline that already has too much.
I did qualify my statement with an 'almost'.

[vnx205]

The Detroit is a pain on side slopes and introduces a lot of backlash into the drive train.



The detroit doesnt dig holes in the sand or cause the vehicle to slip side ways on a slope........why would it as it is locked just the same as a manual locker when off road.

Can someone explain exactly why some LSDs and/or lockers cause problems on slippery side slopes? Which types are worse and why?

I am not questioning whether it happens or how much it happens. I just want to try to understand why.

[clubagreenie]

I've heard the true trac works very well with traction control. I'm about to get one for the rear Sals on the defender. Most of my off road driving is on sand. Where is the best place to get one? USA?

Jono

I have an Ashcroft ATB in the Rear of my D2 with TC and it's seamless, quiet and have never noticed TC operation on road even while u-turning it tightly. You can feel it working off road where there will be a slight pause in momentum until it sorts itself out and thing start moving again (esp with the auto) but I'd add one to the front as soon as I have the budget.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Can someone explain exactly why some LSDs and/or lockers cause problems on slippery side slopes? Which types are worse and why?

I am not questioning whether it happens or how much it happens. I just want to try to understand why.

Lockers make the wheels turn at the same speed regardless of traction or speed. When the ground is slippery, this can mean both wheels are slipping even at idle speeds. Add a side slope to the slipperiness, and both wheels will be slipping in the direction of rotation AND down the slope parallel to the axle. With open diffs, the torque goes to the wheel with less traction so it slips while the other wheel stays still meaning no slip in any direction.
LSDs don't tend to display the side slope slipping unless they are particularly aggressive, so a tightly adjusted clutch type LSD or a spool that locks up might display the characteristic when it activates, while a geared LSD such as Trutracs or ATBs which don't lock up at all will require a lot more throttle to get enough torque to both wheels for the same result.

Any locker be it automatic such as Detroits or selectable such as ARB, MaxiDrive, Jacmac will show the same characteristic, but selectable lockers can be turned off in these situations.

You can also see locked vehicles crabbing across rock steps as the wheels spin trying to find traction whilst unlocked vehicles will sit on the spot with one rear wheel spinning.

[vnx205]

Thanks. It seems so obvious once it is explained. :)

I suppose one way of looking at it is you have a choice between both wheels spinning and slipping sideways or one wheel spinning and the other one just sitting there and while it might not help you to go forward, at least by sitting still it reduces the tendency to go sideways.

[isuzutoo-eh]

Thanks. It seems so obvious once it is explained. :)

I suppose one way of looking at it is you have a choice between both wheels spinning and slipping sideways or one wheel spinning and the other one just sitting there and while it might not help you to go forward, at least by sitting still it reduces the tendency to go sideways.

Exactly :)

[goingbush]

I have also heard the same, but has someone out there got one in the back of there traction control equipped defender?

Cheers Bob.


Hey Bob

Human nature what it is everyone will tell you the setup they have works great.

Different strokes for different folks. Whats good for one truck or driving style, or environment might be totally wrong for another.

Its like art, very subjective. So its very hard to make a decision based on that.

if its got Traction Control the answer is easy Detroit / Eaton Truetracs or Ashcroft ATB (both work the same way) compliments Traction Control & vice versa

Yes fitting a Detroit Locker in a Salisbury is the cheapest & easiest option but you must install heavy duty axles. And rather than working with the Traction Control it will make it redundant.

In my case, for what its worth, I don't do much mountain work anymore (exept for testing) mostly outback touring towing a Caravan & if need be dump the caravan & go for daytrips / prospecting etc, a bit of sandy stuff but never any beach driving ( I hate salt water corrosion). I'm not really in a demographic that usually needs Difflock or LSD but I like to know the traction is there when / if I need it.

I opted for a Eaton Truetrac from Great Basin Rovers in Utah for the Salisbury in the rear of my 04 Td5 (which has Traction Control & yes it is a Salisbury).

The difference was instant & immediate, No difference noticed on road but the car is transformed off road, so much more capable and quieter. Made all the difference between even ripping the wet lawn up maneuveriung the caravan and not making a mark now.

So happy infact that I got another truetrac for the front, and that has absolutely transformed the 110 into the most capable 4x4 I've had, on my local mountain test track its even better than my dual maxidrive diff locked V8 90 was. (not forgetting what I said in the first line at the top of the post)

Where the rear TrueTrac made no change on road, you can definetly feel the front is there, Under hard driving there is some power on/off oversteer/understeer , but no more that you'd be used to if you drive a normal front wheel drive sedan, off road there is no tendancy to bulldoze straight ahead at all like there is with a full diff lock.

Best thing about it, its all zero maintenance, no thought req, it just works when it needs to. and its actually a lot easier on your axles and driveline components that an open diff / full difflock / or open diff with Traction Control.

( If my Defender did not have traction control I'd have fitted Detroit Locker / HD axles in the rear and a Truetrac in the front. )

good luck with your decision

[Yorkie]

the only minor concern with the detroit in the rear has been on sand going down a steep dune, you could feel the rear of the car trying to push around and also see it in the wheel tracks as back did not follow front.

but not really any bother for me as i hate sand with a passion so only drive on it once or twice a year. :D

oh and if you fit a locker, upgrade the axles aswell, not a case of if you break one but when to you break one...:angel:


aint that right baz?

[LowRanger]

I've heard the true trac works very well with traction control. I'm about to get one for the rear Sals on the defender. Most of my off road driving is on sand. Where is the best place to get one? USA?

Jono


I have also heard the same, but has someone out there got one in the back of there traction control equipped defender?

Cheers Bob.

Whilst a Tru Trac or Ashcroft ATB will offer some assistance over a vehicle fitted with just traction control,there is NO substitute for having both half shafts mechanically locked giving even drive to both wheels in 99.9% of places.

[LowRanger]

the only minor concern with the detroit in the rear has been on sand going down a steep dune, you could feel the rear of the car trying to push around and also see it in the wheel tracks as back did not follow front.

but not really any bother for me as i hate sand with a passion so only drive on it once or twice a year. :D

oh and if you fit a locker, upgrade the axles aswell, not a case of if you break one but when to you break one...:angel:


aint that right baz?

Liam

In situations like this,and the same applies when going down very slippery wet muddy hills,if you ease your foot off the accelerator,the locker will unlock,due to the fact that they are actually an auto UNlocker and NOT an auto locker.
A majority of times,it just takes a modified driving style.

[Yorkie]

Liam

In situations like this,and the same applies when going down very slippery wet muddy hills,if you ease your foot off the accelerator,the locker will unlock,due to the fact that they are actually an auto UNlocker and NOT an auto locker.
A majority of times,it just takes a modified driving style.

interesting idea although not sure they would unlock as is it not the resistance between wheels when turning on grippy surfaces that causes them to unlock when cornering but lock up again in a straight line. on sand and slippery mud that resistance would not be there would it?
tbh going down the dune i did the power on approach to correct the pushing effect and seemed to resolve that particular issue. :)

[goingbush]

Whilst a Tru Trac or Ashcroft ATB will offer some assistance over a vehicle fitted with just traction control,there is NO substitute for having both half shafts mechanically locked giving even drive to both wheels in 99.9% of places.

Without wanting to get into a debate I'd say its the other way around.

TrueTrac with Traction control will get you over 99% of stuff , there might only be 1% where a full diff lock would have helped.

I can live with that by not having to worry about breaking front axles or CV's

[MLD]

my 2 cents:

I have an ATB in the front and a maxi in the rear. I don't have traction control. The other week i had a front wheel cocked and due to the slope and mud I couldn't get traction in the rear. I tried on several attempts to left foot brake to simulate traction control. Soft, medium and hard braking rendered no noticeable transfer of power to the wheel with grip. Nor changing the acceleration, ie gentle to giving it a blurt. For my suspension set up and the type of driving I prefer to do I've found the limits of the ATB. I've opted to install a ashcroft locker in the front. I want the Eaton Elocker but it's almost double the price in Oz to the ashcroft unit out of the UK.

I haven't driven a truck with an ATB and traction control. I'd be interested to see the difference, if there is any. Logic says they would be complementary since the traction control does the thinking for you, how much braking is required to a single wheel.

Notwithstanding my experience, an ATB is an improvement over no traction aid in the front. When you can keep 2 front wheels on the ground even with some grip you can see the ATB working. If I was setting up a touring truck I'd keep the ATB because it's a understated traction aid and provides a release of tension in the drive train that dual lockers wouldn't offer when all locked up. It is easier on your CV's compared to a locker.

I haven't experienced ploughing of the front with the ATB. Nor heavier steering to any significant degree. A side affect of its designed is to return to centre, which is noticeable and not a bad thing.

As for which locker for the rear, that's really a matter of personal taste, type of 4wd'ing you do and budget. I'm a fan of the manual locker for all the reasons people have stated. For a touring vehicle it makes sense to be able to select when you want the rear locked. There is a difference in price when you add the extra cost of the unit, a compressor and extra labour to fit. Only you can answer and justify the extra expense.

It's good you are thinking about upgrading the axles and flanges. Not upgrading them is a recipe for a short 4wd trip and a trackside repair.

exciting times. It will transform your truck no matter which way you opt.

I'm waiting on a cheque that will pay for the front locker. I've been known to stalk the postman every day.

MLD

[clubagreenie]

MLD what ATV do you have in the front and for what model? Just wondering if it has a destination when it comes out?

[Jeff]

Do the ATB, the TrueTrac, the Detroit and lockers all work in reverse?

Jeff

:rocket:

[goingbush]

Yes, Despite the Fact that the Front & Rear TrueTracs have oppisite helical gear cut, (I believe Qualfe LSD & Ashcroft ATB Front & Rear are both the same ) Yes they all work in reverse, but Electronic Traction Control does not, at least on the Td5 Defender it dosent.

[butundede]

my 2 cents:

I have an ATB in the front and a maxi in the rear. I don't have traction control. The other week i had a front wheel cocked and due to the slope and mud I couldn't get traction in the rear. I tried on several attempts to left foot brake to simulate traction control. Soft, medium and hard braking rendered no noticeable transfer of power to the wheel with grip. Nor changing the acceleration, ie gentle to giving it a blurt. For my suspension set up and the type of driving I prefer to do I've found the limits of the ATB. I've opted to install a ashcroft locker in the front. I want the Eaton Elocker but it's almost double the price in Oz to the ashcroft unit out of the UK.

I haven't driven a truck with an ATB and traction control. I'd be interested to see the difference, if there is any. Logic says they would be complementary since the traction control does the thinking for you, how much braking is required to a single wheel.

Notwithstanding my experience, an ATB is an improvement over no traction aid in the front. When you can keep 2 front wheels on the ground even with some grip you can see the ATB working. If I was setting up a touring truck I'd keep the ATB because it's a understated traction aid and provides a release of tension in the drive train that dual lockers wouldn't offer when all locked up. It is easier on your CV's compared to a locker.

I haven't experienced ploughing of the front with the ATB. Nor heavier steering to any significant degree. A side affect of its designed is to return to centre, which is noticeable and not a bad thing.

As for which locker for the rear, that's really a matter of personal taste, type of 4wd'ing you do and budget. I'm a fan of the manual locker for all the reasons people have stated. For a touring vehicle it makes sense to be able to select when you want the rear locked. There is a difference in price when you add the extra cost of the unit, a compressor and extra labour to fit. Only you can answer and justify the extra expense.

It's good you are thinking about upgrading the axles and flanges. Not upgrading them is a recipe for a short 4wd trip and a trackside repair.

exciting times. It will transform your truck no matter which way you opt.

I'm waiting on a cheque that will pay for the front locker. I've been known to stalk the postman every day.

MLD

Thanks for your advice, the ARB lockers sound good but I think they will stretch the budget a bit far.
When you get the locker where is the ATB going?

[LowRanger]

Without wanting to get into a debate I'd say its the other way around.

TrueTrac with Traction control will get you over 99% of stuff , there might only be 1% where a full diff lock would have helped.

I can live with that by not having to worry about breaking front axles or CV's

Well lets just say that we disagree then;)
List a front wheel and see how much a Tru Trac or ATB helps:o
You must already be running aftermarket axles and C.V's if you aren't concerned about breaking them.
And where I go,I see a few vehicles with traction aids of various forms,and there really is NO comparison to full lockers,of whatever brand your loyalties lay in.

[rick130]

Well lets just say that we disagree then;)
List a front wheel and see how much a Tru Trac or ATB helps:o
You must already be running aftermarket axles and C.V's if you aren't concerned about breaking them.
And where I go,I see a few vehicles with traction aids of various forms,and there really is NO comparison to full lockers,of whatever brand your loyalties lay in.

Wayne, do remember back on the OuterLimits Rover board when Sam/Strange Rover was running the lockless buggy ?

He had TruTracs front and rear with their (Haultech's) TC and it was really competitive with the other buggies.

At the time, Sam reckoned it was as good as 99% of running full, selectable lockers

[101 Ron]

I will just add.
The Detroit will unlock easily on muddy low grip surfaces.
It takes very little to unlock them.
If fact the detroit loves snow and mud and allows grip with traction and steering in a way a manual locker never will.
I am not detroit blind and if you have traction control , the trutrac is the way to go as it will work well with traction control and no axle up grade is needed.
Detroit is a waste with traction control.

[vnx205]

It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that some people's reason for fitting lockers or LSDs is to make their LR almost unstoppable even in sphincter tightening situations while others just want to reduce the difficulties they might have when traction is less than ideal.

We have been reminded several times that True Tracs and similar LSDs don't transfer any torque across the axle of one wheel is lifted in a vehicle without TC unless a quick dab on the brake pedal is used. However, I can picture all sorts of situations where traction is a minor problem but lifting a wheel completely off the ground is extremely unlikely. In those circumstances a True Trac would do what it was designed to do, wouldn't it?

If my impression is right, then it would seem to me that in my case, for example, with the camper on the back and the chances of lifting a rear wheel very small, a True Track in the rear might be enough to make a difference that might be described as good value for money.

[djam1]

I too would like to see an answer to this I know they do it, I can demonstrate it very easily.
Just have no idea why


Can someone explain exactly why some LSDs and/or lockers cause problems on slippery side slopes? Which types are worse and why?

I am not questioning whether it happens or how much it happens. I just want to try to understand why.

[vnx205]

I too would like to see an answer to this I know they do it, I can demonstrate it very easily.
Just have no idea why

Have a look at post #27.

[Yorkie]

It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that some people's reason for fitting lockers or LSDs is to make their LR almost unstoppable even in sphincter tightening situations while others just want to reduce the difficulties they might have when traction is less than ideal.

We have been reminded several times that True Tracs and similar LSDs don't transfer any torque across the axle of one wheel is lifted in a vehicle without TC unless a quick dab on the brake pedal is used. However, I can picture all sorts of situations where traction is a minor problem but lifting a wheel completely off the ground is extremely unlikely. In those circumstances a True Trac would do what it was designed to do, wouldn't it?

If my impression is right, then it would seem to me that in my case, for example, with the camper on the back and the chances of lifting a rear wheel very small, a True Track in the rear might be enough to make a difference that might be described as good value for money.

but as you don't have tc then you may aswell just get the full detroit. i only paid $450 landed from the USA and $300 to have someone fit it.
positive traction in all conditions and hardly notice it around town. :)

[LowRanger]

Wayne, do remember back on the OuterLimits Rover board when Sam/Strange Rover was running the lockless buggy ?

He had TruTracs front and rear with their (Haultech's) TC and it was really competitive with the other buggies.

At the time, Sam reckoned it was as good as 99% of running full, selectable lockers

Rick
Sams traction control was a little different to what is fitted to factory vehicles.
And I think there were a few more things at play with the Lockless Monster than just the traction control;)

[debruiser]

Ok i'm going to change the direction of this slightly...

I just oredered a Detroit locker for the rear (Salisbury) and a trutrack for the front. Has anyone installed one of them? is it very difficult?

[2stroke]

Rick
Sams traction control was a little different to what is fitted to factory vehicles.
And I think there were a few more things at play with the Lockless Monster than just the traction control;)
I remember lots of broken trutracs around in those days. Also remember him telling me that if 1 wheel is off the ground the other will NOT drive. Still a great LSD but not a locker.

[101 Ron]

Ok i'm going to change the direction of this slightly...

I just oredered a Detroit locker for the rear (Salisbury) and a trutrack for the front. Has anyone installed one of them? is it very difficult?

Do a search in the good oil section.
Rear salis diff is easy.
front diff harder as the CVs have to come out.

[justinc]

In my experience, no TC turns a Trutrac into an average LSD. fitted to a TC equipped vehicle it gives them formidable offroad performance.

I went with Detroit rear and open front, and a winch to help me if I really get stuck. It was only really fitted when I bought the offroad campertrailer to aid in traction on sand, rocks etc. It has done this brilliantly, I have maxi axles also.


My level of backlash with the detroit is annoying, (LT95 and Isuzu so I am behind the 8 ball in THAT department:o :() but I have learnt to drive around it.

I think a Td5 will be less problematic due to the 'soft' throttle. BUT I have been aware of a Detroit fitted to a Puma, very 'jerky' at low speed manuevering:mad:



JC

[justinc]

Do a search in the good oil section.
Rear salis diff is easy.
front diff harder as the CVs have to come out.

Detroit fitment to a Sals takes an hour or less, front ban-go rover diff about 3 hours all up.

JC

[MLD]

[QUOTE=I just oredered a Detroit locker for the rear (Salisbury) and a trutrack for the front. Has anyone installed one of them? is it very difficult?[/QUOTE]

Google "installing a locker". There are dozens of YouTube and other posts giving you a blow by blow education on the process. If you can get your hands on a service manual that will give you the schematic of the diff. After you watch and read until you are satisfied, you'll know if it is for you.

cheers MLD

[jakeslouw]

OK, so I'm off in the bush.

I go through a river-bed and the only exit is an uphill axle-twister with loose shale.

I know that a standard 1989 CSW will never make it without SERIOUS run-up and revs. If at all.

(The scenario above has been in many nightmares.......:eek: )

What will work best?

[vnx205]

but as you don't have tc then you may aswell just get the full detroit. i only paid $450 landed from the USA and $300 to have someone fit it.
positive traction in all conditions and hardly notice it around town. :)

I had the notion that True Tracs were OK with the standard axles, but a locker, including a Detroit needed upgrades axles. Is that right?

[justinc]

OK, so I'm off in the bush.

I go through a river-bed and the only exit is an uphill axle-twister with loose shale.

I know that a standard 1989 CSW will never make it without SERIOUS run-up and revs. If at all.

(The scenario above has been in many nightmares.......:eek: )

What will work best?

detroit in the rear, nothing else required i did almost this exact scenario, and i was towing a 1 ton camper trailer. i had deflated my tyres to 20 psi, (255/85/16 bfg mt) and it just crawled up in 2nd low. of course the slope will be the deciding factor but at the time i was worried i would have to find an alternate route. was very surprised when it just walked out :)

jc

[justinc]

I had the notion that True Tracs were OK with the standard axles, but a locker, including a Detroit needed upgrades axles. Is that right?

yes, its what i would recommend.

jc

[Yorkie]

In my experience, no TC turns a Trutrac into an average LSD. fitted to a TC equipped vehicle it gives them formidable offroad performance.


I had the notion that True Tracs were OK with the standard axles, but a locker, including a Detroit needed upgrades axles. Is that right?

yes axle upgrade advised but i did not until at 12 months and a standard one went snap.
as jc suggests with tc you do not get the same bang for your buck. :)

[lambrover]

Stop playing and just fit full manual lockers. You are spending close to the full thing any way so you may as well save that bit longer and have the real deal I think.

I fitted the rear up first and when I broke the front end I fitted the front locker.

Yes LSD's are good, in Nissan Patrols, but paying for one to be fitted to me is half way. If you lift the wheel of the ground you loose traction. Some have said well we aren't using your car for that extreme terrain well if the wheel is not coming of the ground then don't worry about traction aids at all and fit a winch.

For those with TC it is enough if you aren't interested in lifting wheels.

Some one asked or mentioned TC in reverse, I have been in a 110 Puma reversing on two wheels, the TC works in them pretty well.

Just my thoughts though.

[jakeslouw]

I'm leaning strongly towards a Chinese knock-off of the ARB.......

What about E-lockers? Surely an electronic solenoid with a disengage spring would be a good idea?

[goingbush]

...
For those with TC it is enough if you aren't interested in lifting wheels.
...



NO its not, Im not interested in lifting wheels (Thats why I have a defender & not a Disco :)) TC is ok , but once youve driven with TC and truetracs you will have the hugest smile on your face :D, I would not swap the combination for anything.

ive had Difflocked Landys before but none felt as right as this The only thing I miss are the difflock knobs.

Without the Truetracs the TC was good but you really knew about it, I'd hate to think what all that pulsing is doing to the spider gears.

the only time you now know the tc is working is when you see the light come on, you dont even hear the pump anymore it works so seamlessly ,

[goingbush]

Well lets just say that we disagree then;)
Lift a front wheel and see how much a Tru Trac or ATB helps:o
You must already be running aftermarket axles and C.V's if you aren't concerned about breaking them.
And where I go,I see a few vehicles with traction aids of various forms,and there really is NO comparison to full lockers,of whatever brand your loyalties lay in.

Hey Wayne, now I have to test that out, over the next couple of days Im going to put the 110 up the ramp, I know how far it got before with TC & without truetracs.

I'll test it with TC off just to see if the Truetracs go any further than open diffs, Then I'll test it with TC on, my prediction it will go to the end of the ramp (if it dosent roll first), will ad results to the image below & repost here, (just have to make a new top for the ramp as I sold that orange part with my trailer.)

BTW , yes I do have MD rear axles & Flanges thanks to Prev Owner and Ive since added MD front flanges but only to eliminate backlash but the front axles & CV's are original.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[PAT303]

Stop playing and just fit full manual lockers. You are spending close to the full thing any way so you may as well save that bit longer and have the real deal I think.

I fitted the rear up first and when I broke the front end I fitted the front locker.

Yes LSD's are good, in Nissan Patrols, but paying for one to be fitted to me is half way. If you lift the wheel of the ground you loose traction. Some have said well we aren't using your car for that extreme terrain well if the wheel is not coming of the ground then don't worry about traction aids at all and fit a winch.

For those with TC it is enough if you aren't interested in lifting wheels.

Some one asked or mentioned TC in reverse, I have been in a 110 Puma reversing on two wheels, the TC works in them pretty well.

Just my thoughts though.

If you already have TC fitting ATB/Truetrac works everywhere,sand/snow/ice/dirt/grass etc,diff locks only work offroad,if I'm spending a grand plus I want bang for my buck. Pat

[goingbush]

If you already have TC fitting ATB/Truetrac works everywhere,sand/snow/ice/dirt/grass etc,diff locks only work offroad,if I'm spending a grand plus I want bang for my buck. Pat

could not have said it better.

TC & True Tracs will get you through anywhere without you even really knowing there was a lack of traction , Sometimes you dont get time to think about wether you need the difflock or not & you might end up stuck, where the TC/TT combo got you through because you never lost any momentum at all.

Especially in Sand & Especially towing a Trailer

[isuzutoo-eh]

One of my favourite things about the ATB/Truetrac is you have improved traction and normal steering all the time, front lockers aren't terribly good with manouvering when engaged, pretty brutal on CVs in particular.

I think of my ATB as a poor-man's traction control that only works on one axle.

[clubagreenie]

Without the Truetracs the TC was good but you really knew about it, I'd hate to think what all that pulsing is doing to the spider gears.


I can show you on mine that I pulled to fit the ATB



Originally Posted by lambrover https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/08/768.jpg (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/157245-true-trac-detroit-locker-2.html#post1744540)
Stop playing and just fit full manual lockers. You are spending close to the full thing any way so you may as well save that bit longer and have the real deal I think.

Don't know where you're buying your lockers but I hve 2 ATB's for less than a grand.

[strangy]

but as you don't have tc then you may aswell just get the full detroit. i only paid $450 landed from the USA and $300 to have someone fit it.
positive traction in all conditions and hardly notice it around town. :)

Yorkie who was the supplier?

Cheers

[weeds]

one good thing about a selectable locker is that you have something up your sleeve if you do get stuck, i.e. i only ever engage the front locker if i get stuck or start to struggle with the only the rear locker engaged. in all but one case its been my insurance policy i.e having one locker not engaged up my sleeve

this is one thing you guys with auto lockers do not have.....

I could be wrong but most of the bad press about ARB lockers is from guys that have never installed or used (kinda like mac v pc) them and their experience is based on cost.........

in saying that that the previous owner of my rig installed the twin arb lockers which have work faultlessly since they were install >10 years ago, if i was buying lockers now i would take some time to consider auto locker based due to the price but reckon i would save my pennies for selectable lockers

if your doing any decent amount of touring than its a good chance you need a decent compressor therefore i dont factor in the cost of the air commpressor for an ARB locker install

[clubagreenie]

I have a winch. No matter what locker you have, stuck is stuck.

[Yorkie]

Yorkie who was the supplier?

Cheers

Lucky8 in the states, exchange is good at the moment aswell. :)

[LowRanger]

Hey Wayne, now I have to test that out, over the next couple of days Im going to put the 110 up the ramp, I know how far it got before with TC & without truetracs.

I'll test it with TC off just to see if the Truetracs go any further than open diffs, Then I'll test it with TC on, my prediction it will go to the end of the ramp (if it dosent roll first), will ad results to the image below & repost here, (just have to make a new top for the ramp as I sold that orange part with my trailer.)

BTW , yes I do have MD rear axles & Flanges thanks to Prev Owner and Ive since added MD front flanges but only to eliminate backlash but the front axles & CV's are original.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I fail to see what driving up a ramp on hard ground is going to prove.The minute that your front wheel come off the ground even with your TruTrac,it will fail to provide any further drive.You will get drive from the rear,until one of the rear wheels leaves the ground as well,and then you will fail to proceed.This is the point that a fully locked vehicle will continue to drive,to the point of clearing the obstacle or falling on its side:twisted:

[gavinwibrow]

I fail to see what driving up a ramp on hard ground is going to prove.The minute that your front wheel come off the ground even with your TruTrac,it will fail to provide any further drive.You will get drive from the rear,until one of the rear wheels leaves the ground as well,and then you will fail to proceed.This is the point that a fully locked vehicle will continue to drive,to the point of clearing the obstacle or falling on its side:twisted:
I'm following this thread with great interest, given I'm about to fit a pair of trutracs.

If I understand goingbush where he says

QUOTE "over the next couple of days Im going to put the 110 up the ramp, I know how far it got before with TC & without truetracs.

I'll test it with TC off just to see if the Truetracs go any further than open diffs, Then I'll test it with TC on, my prediction it will go to the end of the ramp (if it dosent roll first) UNQUOTE

he will be undertaking a full set of experiments confirming that TC plus trutracs is almost the same as full lockers, but with less propensity to break anything ie sequence is

1 - I know how far it got before with TC & without truetracs.

2 - I'll test it with TC off just to see if the Truetracs go any further than open diffs,

3 - Then I'll test it with TC on

I reckon/hope he is right with 3 - QUOTE "my prediction it will go to the end of the ramp (if it doesnt roll first)

Good on you. Waiting with bated breath!!!!

[LowRanger]

I'm following this thread with great interest, given I'm about to fit a pair of trutracs.

If I understand goingbush where he says

QUOTE "over the next couple of days Im going to put the 110 up the ramp, I know how far it got before with TC & without truetracs.

I'll test it with TC off just to see if the Truetracs go any further than open diffs, Then I'll test it with TC on, my prediction it will go to the end of the ramp (if it dosent roll first) UNQUOTE

he will be undertaking a full set of experiments confirming that TC plus trutracs is almost the same as full lockers, but with less propensity to break anything ie sequence is

1 - I know how far it got before with TC & without truetracs.

2 - I'll test it with TC off just to see if the Truetracs go any further than open diffs,

3 - Then I'll test it with TC on

I reckon/hope he is right with 3 - QUOTE "my prediction it will go to the end of the ramp (if it doesnt roll first)

Good on you. Waiting with bated breath!!!!

I agree,that it should make it to the top of that ramp without any problem at all.Providing it keeps both rear wheels on the ground;)

[gavinwibrow]

I agree,that it should make it to the top of that ramp without any problem at all.Providing it keeps both rear wheels on the ground;)
But surely if the rear is locked, lifting a rear wheel becomes a non issue?

[djam1]

I understood that Goingbush had a Detroit locker in the rear of his Defender, if so he will go all the way to the top of the ramp or crash on his side.
If he has 2 Trutracs then his traction control will unsure the same result albeit not in a smooth controlled manner.
If he takes the fuse out of his traction control he will go the same height as a 110 without Trutracs

[goingbush]

I understood that Goingbush had a Detroit locker in the rear of his Defender, if so he will go all the way to the top of the ramp or crash on his side.
If he has 2 Trutracs then his traction control will unsure the same result albeit not in a smooth controlled manner.
If he takes the fuse out of his traction control he will go the same height as a 110 without Trutracs


No Ive got Truetracs front & rear, I have a switch to deactivate the ABS /TC

Ive welded a new top on the ramp but now its raining so its not a fair comparison. I'll have to video the comparison because once I get up the ramp using TC It will roll back down if a wheel is off the ground, so I wont be able to get out & take the photo. It would not go far enough to lift a wheel at all with only TC and open diffs, we will soon see !!

Heres a pic of my old 90 hybrid driving up a Tree at Wagoo's place, Dual Maxidrives, you can see the front maxi actuator on the diff housing.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/340.jpg
(not much articulation !!, I know on my 110 with standard suspension the crossup is much better. the 90 seems too light in the rear)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/486.jpg

Once a wheel leaves the ground & I keep driving obviously I know the TT/TC combo is as good as 2 diff locks so I wont need to keep going to the top & risk rolling. It will start to feel tippy when / if the 2nd wheel leaves the ground.

Bill says the tree is gone now, I could find another tree but to be fair I want to compare with where the Defender went to on the ramp before.

I'll also go find a culvert to cross at 45 degrees then one front wheel and one opposite rear wheel will be off the ground without a risk of rolling, will video results with & without TC , hopefully later today or tomorrow.

[vnx205]

Can't you use a two ramps to reduce the chances of falling onto your side?

Something like this, although in your case, the one that starts under the vehicle can't be a full height one.

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/7/16/2005444/Flex.jpg

[weeds]

I have a winch. No matter what locker you have, stuck is stuck.

i also have a winch, all i was highlighting is that with selectable lockers you can choose when to use them. I have been stuck with rear locker engaged which gave me the opportunity to get out and assess the situation to decide if the second locker is going to get me out of trouble or into more trouble.....

[LowRanger]

No Ive got Truetracs front & rear, I have a switch to deactivate the ABS /TC

Ive welded a new top on the ramp but now its raining so its not a fair comparison. I'll have to video the comparison because once I get up the ramp using TC It will roll back down if a wheel is off the ground, so I wont be able to get out & take the photo. It would not go far enough to lift a wheel at all with only TC and open diffs, we will soon see !!

Heres a pic of my old 90 hybrid driving up a Tree at Wagoo's place, Dual Maxidrives, you can see the front maxi actuator on the diff housing.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/08/340.jpg
(not much articulation !!, I know on my 110 with standard suspension the crossup is much better. the 90 seems too light in the rear)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/486.jpg

Once a wheel leaves the ground & I keep driving obviously I know the TT/TC combo is as good as 2 diff locks so I wont need to keep going to the top & risk rolling. It will start to feel tippy when / if the 2nd wheel leaves the ground.

Bill says the tree is gone now, I could find another tree but to be fair I want to compare with where the Defender went to on the ramp before.

I'll also go find a culvert to cross at 45 degrees then one front wheel and one opposite rear wheel will be off the ground without a risk of rolling, will video results with & without TC , hopefully later today or tomorrow.

And a lovely old vehicle it was too:BigThumb:

[goingbush]

Well im well and truly stuffed after eating all that humble pie,

in the words of Dr Phil.... "What WAS I Thinking"

Diff Lock guys, you knew you were right !!

Im too embarrased to upload the videos but here are the screen caps showing the highest the 110 went up the Ramp.

Traction Control OFF
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Traction Control ON
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

The Yellow line is where the Center of the front wheel made it to before with Open Diffs but with Traction Control

OK its better with TrueTracs, no doubt, and better again with TrueTracs AND Traction Control ON - But nothing like I promised :blush:

the old TC was grinding away but not enough to make the truetracs transfer enough torque to the wheel with traction, instead the wheels with least traction were digging holes in the ground.

no point going looking for a tree to climb, the results are pretty conclusive.

Well with all that said and done, I still think its a great combo and in real life 4x4ing with more agressive use of throttle the TC does work better but I wasnt about to do that on the ramp , (see there I go with the silver lining BS again)

I'm going to opt out of the next Ellis Track trip.


.

[vnx205]

Look on the bright side. At least you didn't fall over onto the side. Didn't even have to resort to my suggestion of double ramps.

Sometimes laboratory experiments don't accurately reflect what happens in real world conditions. I really would have expected your TC to make a bigger difference. Maybe it does in the real world. :) How's that for looking for a silver lining? :p


EDIT: That still isn't a bad effort though. Some people get a nose bleed if they get that high off the ground. :D

[LowRanger]

Well im well and truly stuffed after eating all that humble pie,

in the words of Dr Phil.... "What WAS I Thinking"

Diff Lock guys, you knew you were right !!

Im too embarrased to upload the videos but here are the screen caps showing the highest the 110 went up the Ramp.

Traction Control OFF
http://goingbush.com/landy/tcoff.jpg

Traction Control ON
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

The Yellow line is where the Center of the front wheel made it to before with Open Diffs but with Traction Control

OK its better with TrueTracs, no doubt, and better again with TrueTracs AND Traction Control ON - But nothing like I promised :blush:

the old TC was grinding away but not enough to make the truetracs transfer enough torque to the wheel with traction, instead the wheels with least traction were digging holes in the ground.

no point going looking for a tree to climb, the results are pretty conclusive.

Well with all that said and done, I still think its a great combo and in real life 4x4ing with more agressive use of throttle the TC does work better but I wasnt about to do that on the ramp , (see there I go with the silver lining BS again)

I'm going to opt out of the next Ellis Track trip.


.

No needs to eat humble pie:o
I was just relying on what I have personally seen in real world applications.
Now as recompense,when can I come and pick up your Hybrid for some fun:p

And I do agree,that for most people,the TruTracs and traction control would be perfect.Especially for those set up as tourers or for medium duty use.
But for those like me,that like to play a little harder,especially in large rocky terrain,well there are other choices,thankfully:twisted:

[djam1]

I too was completely wrong in my previous post

[goingbush]

..
Now as recompense,when can I come and pick up your Hybrid for some fun:p

....

Last time I saw it was at a Sherrifs auction. The bloke that bought it from me did some bogus paperwork and years later I got pulled up at a random Police / RTA roadblock and was issued a summons. Somehow he kept it in my name but simply changed the adress for that rego to his house so any fines he racked up were in my name but at his adress, he never paid them, but paid the rego. So I immediately got the rego cancelled (cos it was in my name so officially I could do that) and the vehicle got seized by the Sherrifs to cover the fines and clear my name, So on the day of the auction I fronted up with all intentions to buy it back but at the last hour it got withdrawn because the bloke paid the fines.

That was the last I ever saw of it, (at least 15 yrs ago) I heard it was in a smash or dismantled and the chassis was leaning on someones fence. Pity, it was a beast with 302w c10 low stall converter & G60 xfer box, Maxis and 4.1 gears.

Every time I have ever sold a car since I always phone up VicRoads a week later to make sure the ownership details have changed out of my name.

[LowRanger]

Last time I saw it was at a Sherrifs auction. The bloke that bought it from me did some bogus paperwork and years later I got pulled up at a random Police / RTA roadblock and was issued a summons. Somehow he kept it in my name but simply changed the adress for that rego to his house so any fines he racked up were in my name but at his adress, he never paid them, but paid the rego. So I immediately got the rego cancelled (cos it was in my name so officially I could do that) and the vehicle got seized by the Sherrifs to cover the fines and clear my name, So on the day of the auction I fronted up with all intentions to buy it back but at the last hour it got withdrawn because the bloke paid the fines.

That was the last I ever saw of it, (at least 15 yrs ago) I heard it was in a smash or dismantled and the chassis was leaning on someones fence. Pity, it was a beast with 302w c10 low stall converter & G60 xfer box, Maxis and 4.1 gears.

Every time I have ever sold a car since I always phone up VicRoads a week later to make sure the ownership details have changed out of my name.

That is sad news indeed:(
In NSW there is a section on the back of the registration papers that is meant to be filled in by the seller and sent to the RTA

[dullbird]

yep notice of disposal or something

[clubagreenie]

Lucky8 in the states, exchange is good at the moment aswell. :)

Just went through the pricing exercise and direct from Ashcroft is cheaper again. My first ATB was just over $400- incl shipping (3 days!). At the moment it's about the same and just over $500- from the states.

[Yorkie]

mines a detroit no-spin, not a truetrac/atb. :)