Winches - front and rear options

[gavinwibrow]

Wasn't sure whether to put this here, in Recovery, or Electrical, so here goes. Some background is listed first, then a call for help!

Before pestering Tim/Drivesafe/Traxide for the necessary equipment, I want to pursue an idea I started playing with a few months ago, namely a portable front or rear mounted winch for my D2a. I'm specifically talking about the electrics here, and conceptually to my uneducated mind, the electrics should be no different to what you would have with a twin front and rear winches installation.

My winch (Runva 11XP) sits on a Tigerz11 towbar receiver mount intending to be able to be connected to either my front or rear receiver, depending on the circumstances. The benefits of this approach are that I only need to carry the winch around when I might need it and I have the benefits of twin winches without most of the downsides.

I'm assuming there is enough strength built into the receivers to handle the loads. I have a standard LR rear towbar setup and a made up front receiver located where the winch rope/hawser would otherwise come through on my deluxe ARB winch bar.

What (I think) I want is winch electrical connection points for both front and rear, to be designed and installed in conjunction with fitting multiple batteries (think Optima Yellow tops for both front and rear). My winch can draw up to 540A according to specs, so will need to design for 600A?

There seems to be some reticence in running heavy duty cabling to the rear, and in particular concerns with providing safety fusing.

I'm assuming the same cabling will be hooked into the multiple battery system to run normal camping accessories such as fridge and trailer?

Can the gurus on this wonderful site see any reason why the system can't or won't work? (and feel free to suggest/comment on any design parameters if you think it can).

Don't be shy - I think this idea could suit quite a few if not already a "been there - done that".

[joe.woods]

I'm currently half way in building a rear bar to carry a 9000lb winch and I have a 12000lb (both Warn) on the front; with the power draw and power loss over the length of the D2 you need 70mm2 cable unless you have a battery in the rear. You can get Anderson plugs to suit for about $40 a pair with handle and dust cover from ebay. Some people suggest soldering the connections; not a good idea on portable plugs makes the connection brittle best crimping them, if you don't have a crimper go to an electrical mob and have it done. Run both +ve and -ve directly to the battery do not earth via the body. Have fun - Cheers:)

If you need some 70mm cable PM me I have some bought a drum as it was cheaper and there is a few meters there. (70mm welding flex)

[gavinwibrow]

I'm currently half way in building a rear bar to carry a 9000lb winch and I have a 12000lb (both Warn) on the front; with the power draw and power loss over the length of the D2 you need 70mm2 cable unless you have a battery in the rear. You can get Anderson plugs to suit for about $40 a pair with handle and dust cover from ebay. Some people suggest soldering the connections; not a good idea on portable plugs makes the connection brittle best crimping them, if you don't have a crimper go to an electrical mob and have it done. Run both +ve and -ve directly to the battery do not earth via the body. Have fun - Cheers:)

If you need some 70mm cable PM me I have some bought a drum as it was cheaper and there is a few meters there. (70mm welding flex)
Hi Joe and thanks for the words of encouragement. Good points about dust covers and crimping.
Yes I plan to have a rear battery (and at this stage, I'm assuming the 70mm2 cable would be connected to that too) - I'm no electrical whizz!
Assuming you will have enough left over, I would be happy to purchase cabling to help us both out. I will follow up after further discussions with Drivesafe.

Are you saying that Anderson plugs can handle the load from a stalled winch? I thought they were only for much ligher loads.

[twr7cx]

Are you saying that Anderson plugs can handle the load from a stalled winch? I thought they were only for much ligher loads.

Battery Connectors - Products - Narva (http://narva.com.au/products/browse/battery-connectors) - only lists up to suitable for 64mm2 cabling, but they do do optional dust covers.

[gavinwibrow]

Battery Connectors - Products - Narva (http://narva.com.au/products/browse/battery-connectors) - only lists up to suitable for 64mm2 cabling, but they do do optional dust covers.
Ta - but more to the point - only good to 350 Amps unless I'm missing something!

Anderson list one as up to 700 amps with wire size up to 250 MCM or with 4/0 wire up to 600 Amps, whatever those wire sizes mean. Not sure how weather/dust proof the connectors are though - pretty hard to read the pdf at http://www.andersonpower.com/litlib/files.html/download/209

[biggin]

Ta - but more to the point - only good to 350 Amps unless I'm missing something!

Anderson list one as up to 700 amps with wire size up to 250 MCM or with 4/0 wire up to 600 Amps, whatever those wire sizes mean. Not sure how weather/dust proof the connectors are though - pretty hard to read the pdf at Anderson Power Products (http://www.andersonpower.com/litlib/files.html/download/209)

MCM is an american wire size. Stands for thousands of circular mils. Mils being one thousandths of an inch. Metric equivalent is 120mm2.

[disco2hse]

Electrics aside, you're putting an awful lot of faith into a mere receiver hitch when it comes time to haul a D2 out of the muck. Unless your pull angle is straight off the front or rear, you risk doing some nasty damage if the winch twists or buckles (which it probably will).

I have seen this arrangement on a Zuk. Worked really well for them, but they were slightly more than half the weight of a D2. They were using an 8000lb winch.

The other thing is the weight of the winch itself and having to manhandle it.

Have you considered running a cable from the front to the rear or the rear to the front? Like the attachment.

[gavinwibrow]

Electrics aside, you're putting an awful lot of faith into a mere receiver hitch when it comes time to haul a D2 out of the muck. Unless your pull angle is straight off the front or rear, you risk doing some nasty damage if the winch twists or buckles (which it probably will).

I have seen this arrangement on a Zuk. Worked really well for them, but they were slightly more than half the weight of a D2. They were using an 8000lb winch.

The other thing is the weight of the winch itself and having to manhandle it.

Have you considered running a cable from the front to the rear or the rear to the front? Like the attachment.
I think I just about have the electrics sussed out thanks to some valuable input from joe.woods on this site. Then to talk to Drivesafe.

Fair call about the receiver point - that potentially is the weakest link in conjunction with the tigerz11 winch mount. After a career in construction and transport I know enough about safety procedures to be dangerous, but have a very healthy respect for flying steel.

Thanks for posting the pics, and thought about it, but don't want to run winch cables through. The whole point of the exercise is not to have to carry a winch 90% of the time for my daily drive. I can manage the weight and locating of the winch and mount out there by myself, as long as I'm not trying to do so in slippery mud etc (not planning on going there if I can help it).

This is being set up for touring, not hard core 4WD, and I can only suck it and see if it works.

I don't yet know the answer, but would think the strength of my LR rear receiver would be comparable to that of the winch bar setup. After all, rear receivers often have a shackle assembly fitted in for a rear snatch recovery point, so hopefully the winch forces would be in the same or lesser order of magnitude.

Thanks again for all the informed comments and keep them coming. It's often the comment from left field that makes or breaks an idea!!!

[joe.woods]

FYI and thoughts; one of the blokes here at work does something similar on his Patrol, he made his own cradle with male / female for the tow hitch and carries it between his trailer and Nissian when he goes bush...just another idea...:) I'll see him in 4-5 weeks and see if he can take a pic for me or supply a drawing.

[gavinwibrow]

FYI and thoughts; one of the blokes here at work does something similar on his Patrol, he made his own cradle with male / female for the tow hitch and carries it between his trailer and Nissian when he goes bush...just another idea...:) I'll see him in 4-5 weeks and see if he can take a pic for me or supply a drawing.
Aha - so like an extended tow hitch tongue - that's thinking outside the square.
I wonder about the legalities? Conceptualy, just an extension of those longer tongue systems used to carry multiple push bikes.

[peter5111]

To muddy the waters a little, why not a Tirfor ? Winch in any direction you like and generally you are winching somebody else out of trouble, so they get to swing on the handle :)

[biggin]

...... why not a Tirfor ? ......

I think you answered your own question.
Having swung on the handle a few times, I'm starting to think there must be a better way.
Having said that, it got me out of trouble every time....eventually.:p

[TD50WA]

Not sure if I have the right grasp of what you are after, but warn make a winch cradle that simply fits your towbar. The idea being you have a reese style receiver front and rear and then just move the winch in its cradle to which ever end you need it. A 9000 with plasma won't be light, but would be manageable I would think?
The front receiver would be the same as a normal winch mount bar stress on the car and I again assume that a company like warn wouldn't promote a product to plug into a towbar if it wasn't (reasonably) safe?
The benefit is no winch weight around town, and only one winch required for both ends depending which is required.
Only down side is where to carry it when touring/4wding....on roof...mm heavy...in back, takes up space, on hitch, sticks out a bit....I guess you have to weigh up the pros and cons...

Cheers
Kev.

[gavinwibrow]

Not sure if I have the right grasp of what you are after, but warn make a winch cradle that simply fits your towbar. The idea being you have a reese style receiver front and rear and then just move the winch in its cradle to which ever end you need it. A 9000 with plasma won't be light, but would be manageable I would think?
The front receiver would be the same as a normal winch mount bar stress on the car and I again assume that a company like warn wouldn't promote a product to plug into a towbar if it wasn't (reasonably) safe?
The benefit is no winch weight around town, and only one winch required for both ends depending which is required.
Only down side is where to carry it when touring/4wding....on roof...mm heavy...in back, takes up space, on hitch, sticks out a bit....I guess you have to weigh up the pros and cons...

Cheers
Kev.
Kev. that is exactly what I am trying to set up. Tigerz11 also make a portable receiver hitch winch mount and that is what I'm planning on using. Cheers

[clubagreenie]

I wouldn't trust a std receiver pin either. get some 16mm or 5/8" HT Steel bar and make a new one. The originals will break before tearing out the sides of the receiver. A HT will tear out the hitch first.

[Beckford]

To muddy the waters a little, why not a Tirfor ? Winch in any direction you like and generally you are winching somebody else out of trouble, so they get to swing on the handle :)

I have a winch on the front, and then carry a Hi-Lift Jack with hand winch kit + drag chain.

It's a lot of weight to lug around, but on our last trip we were solo. If the winch on the front died, it would have better than nothing. Also if we rolled it on it's side we could have winched from whatever angle we wanted, including backwards.

[Tombie]

Gavin - Something to consider...

The Runva is a 30kg winch (using 30mtr rope), so heavier than an average 9500lb unit.

The tray runs (based on WARN unit) 14kgs

Thats 44kg to lug around. :o


When you're stuck, thats a nightmare! And can be bloody dangerous!


Carrying it in the vehicle will prove dangerous (and consume valuable space).

Having it mounted will greatly increase weight AND leverage by being further out past the axle than if mounted in the bar (yes it makes a noticeable difference).

Approach and departure angles will also suffer.

On a reality basis, if you are touring and see an area requiring winching it will almost always be forwards... Otherwise it should be a case of "we shouldn't be in there" ;)

Lugging the 30kg on a front winch bar daily will be almost zero effect on the fuel economy.... Fitting a front receiver will add 5-10kg in steel mass anyway.

Plus the 10-15kg of cable to the rear....

In the real world, if you come across a length of track you *must* pass, you will always proceed forwards. If you have alternatives and the track is impassable under normal conditions - most (sensible) people will drive around / wait etc.

I understand your aim, your idea and the concept. Reality is very different.

If you still wanted a rear winch - consider building a fixed cradle / bar and fitting a smaller unit permanently - The weight penalty will be there but not to such detriment as you lose the weight of the factory bar, weight of a cradle - and you gain a solid rear bumper.


Good luck!

[gavinwibrow]

Gavin - Something to consider...

The Runva is a 30kg winch (using 30mtr rope), so heavier than an average 9500lb unit.

The tray runs (based on WARN unit) 14kgs

Thats 44kg to lug around. :o


When you're stuck, thats a nightmare! And can be bloody dangerous!


Carrying it in the vehicle will prove dangerous (and consume valuable space).

Having it mounted will greatly increase weight AND leverage by being further out past the axle than if mounted in the bar (yes it makes a noticeable difference).

Approach and departure angles will also suffer.

On a reality basis, if you are touring and see an area requiring winching it will almost always be forwards... Otherwise it should be a case of "we shouldn't be in there" ;)

Lugging the 30kg on a front winch bar daily will be almost zero effect on the fuel economy.... Fitting a front receiver will add 5-10kg in steel mass anyway.

Plus the 10-15kg of cable to the rear....

In the real world, if you come across a length of track you *must* pass, you will always proceed forwards. If you have alternatives and the track is impassable under normal conditions - most (sensible) people will drive around / wait etc.

I understand your aim, your idea and the concept. Reality is very different.

If you still wanted a rear winch - consider building a fixed cradle / bar and fitting a smaller unit permanently - The weight penalty will be there but not to such detriment as you lose the weight of the factory bar, weight of a cradle - and you gain a solid rear bumper.


Good luck!
Thanks Tombie, clubagreenie and others - all valid points (and all except HD pin were previously considered).
Although I do waver after reading logical posts like this, sometimes you just have to do/try things despite good advice to the contrary. The best laid plans of men and mice. If it doesnt work out, I'll then do a standard front installation.

For what its worth, I never intended to have it set up on either front or rear receiver "just in case" (apart from probably being illegal) and it would hopefully (almost?) always be a case of drag it out when required, and in that scenario there would be others to help lug and slide in 44 kg as i don't plan to travel alone. It would also be shackled down for the relatively rare occassions it would be carried (inside), remembering this is touring, not heavily modded transportation. I have worked out a safe and accessible place to store it (between axles as befits heavy gear). It will still be some time before completion and trial, and before I can report back and you can all say told you so!!

[disco2hse]

Purely out of interest.

If I need a rearward pull, I will use three of snatch blocks for the purpose. Otherwise, I have a tirfor style hand winch that has been used a few times in anger. The hand winch is pretty easy to use if you use the right technique (push the handle by walking against it, don't try to push/pull with just your arms).

Rearward winching is kind of like here, but on the rear I use a double swing-away block (as opposed to two singles) plus a single to attain greater purchase.

Winch backwards with a front-mounted winch (http://www.pantheus.com/tf/index.php'topic=277.0)

Ahh, this is what I was looking for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tI3HtgdCY

[gavinwibrow]

Purely out of interest.

If I need a rearward pull, I will use three of snatch blocks for the purpose. Otherwise, I have a tirfor style hand winch that has been used a few times in anger. The hand winch is pretty easy to use if you use the right technique (push the handle by walking against it, don't try to push/pull with just your arms).

Rearward winching is kind of like here, but on the rear I use a double swing-away block (as opposed to two singles) plus a single to attain greater purchase.

Winch backwards with a front-mounted winch (http://www.pantheus.com/tf/index.php'topic=277.0)

Ahh, this is what I was looking for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tI3HtgdCY
Looks good. Unfortunately for much of the country we travel in the trees don't plant themselves quite as accomodatingly. I do however also have a trifor type hand winch and 2 rated extensions - maybe I should just take them, a sand anchor and forget about the winch. :)

[disco2hse]

Looks good. Unfortunately for much of the country we travel in the trees don't plant themselves quite as accomodatingly. I do however also have a trifor type hand winch and 2 rated extensions - maybe I should just take them, a sand anchor and forget about the winch. :)

Certainly a possibility. I once had winched a mate's Pajero 50-odd m in soft sand. Wasn't fun, but he did most of the work since it was his fault. He blew his motor.