2.7 TDV6, a wee bit of a problem, possibly......

[Nomad9]

Hi Forumites.
Recently did a bit of a service, all went well. Took the vehicle out for a bit of a drive, had lunch came out and noticed a trickle of oil on the floor, I was parked on a bit of a forward slant. Assured my daughter had nothing to do with "The Sport" they don't leaking anything...... ho hum he says.
Anyway, decided to fit and electronic brake controller and do a couple of other jobs. Noticed the coolant was a bit low so I duly topped it up and moved onto the fuel filer which has a had a persistent drip since I got the vehicle, fixed that and whilst under the hoist I noticed some black oil staining on the back of the bell housing, both sides............
Took the engine cover off and noticed a bit of oil on either side of the oil filter housings, assuming I had possibly damged the oil seal I removed the filer housing and replaced the oil seal, washed the engine down with degreaser and moved on.
Move the vehicle back and forth over the hoist I noticed some watery oil now dripping on the floor. Back into the engine I could still see evidence of what looked like oil on either side of the oil filter. I stuck a thin bit of rag down the side with a long screw driver. left it for about 10 minutes and pulled the rag out, yeap bit of really black engine oil and some red staining.
Got a long length of thin clear plastic hose 8mm x 2.5 m long and put the tube where oil was and then promptly suck two lengths of red liquid into the tube that had a distinct smell of coolant.

My assumption is here that the oil is possibly oil that has been spilt out from a previous oil change, I hope to goodness this is the case. But the coolant has got me a bit flumuxed, I've done a thread search and found that there are some coolant type bits under the y piece that are a bit suspect. I suspect that the leaking coolant has lifted the oil to the top hence showing the oil leak first.
Is there a common failing point here? Could this be what it is? Is replacing these bits tricky, how hard is removing the Y piece?
I have a fair amount of technical know how, rebuild engines that sort of thing to give you an idea.
Any help would be gratefully accepted. Thanks in anticipation. :confused:

[Ean Austral]

If you mean the Y piece on the intake side that sits in front of the oil filter..Its very simple. about 30 mins if taking it easy.. just find a thread about doing the EGr blank and it will have a step by step of it. If no joy I will find the one I used.

Seems feasable about the oil sitting on the coolant, would think if it was a new leak it would be clean oil. I am unsure of the coolant hose's in that area, but have a workshop disc so can check it out if no one comes on with a decent response.

Cheers Ean

[Nomad9]

Hi Ean,
I found the EGR blank procedure, this is good, however doing the EGR blanks you don't actually take off butterfly box, the air box comes off and the EGR pipes, I was hoping to get the buttery fly box off without taking both EGR pipes off.
If you have got the procedure for taking off the butterfly box that would be appreciated.
Thanks for the help rendered.

[Ean Austral]

Hi Ean,
I found the EGR blank procedure, this is good, however doing the EGR blanks you don't actually take off butterfly box, the air box comes off and the EGR pipes, I was hoping to get the buttery fly box off without taking both EGR pipes off.
If you have got the procedure for taking off the butterfly box that would be appreciated.
Thanks for the help rendered.

All you need to do is about 100mm from the airbox on eack EGR pipe is a join, there is a small clamp like a hose clamp that with a pair of pliers you just nip the 2 sides together and that clamp can be removed, this allows the EGR pipe's to be seperated.

Once you take them off ( keep them as you just fit them back on when you refit the Y piece) have a look in the centre of the Y near the oil filter there is a electric connection, pull this up gently ( it just sits in a groove) this will only move a small amount, its just so the connector is not broken when you remove the Y piece as the groove is moulded onto it , then lift the whole Y piece up and it just pops out of the inlet side, as it is only held in there by O-rings.

The whole Y piece is held in place by 1 bolt about 1/2 way along and the clamp ring at the front end, the back end just fits inside the larger inlet section between the heads.. You dont need to worry about the steps of the butterfly removal as that will all stay together....You will be shocked at how much crud is in the Y piece tho.

Hope this make sense.

Cheers Ean

[Ean Austral]

Try this.. may help abit. dont try and remove the EGR pipe's from the Y piece as they go inside about 50mm, just seperate them at the join I mentioned..Very easy, looks daunting but if you look closely at the little clamps that hold them together, you will see how they work.. I never fitted new O-rings, and have removed the whole thing twice so far. Whilst you have it apart, remove and clean the MAP senser in the Y piece, its held in by 1 screw

Cheers Ean

[CaverD3]

It may be the thermostat housing leaking. They are plastic and warp first leaking a bit then fail. Just had mine replaced.

[Nomad9]

Hi CaverD3,
What symptoms did you have? Slight loss of coolant at first? Water in the valley? (sounds like some sort of Welsh ditty), water leak underneath? Did you do it yourself? How much was the thermostat housing?

Only a couple of questions I know........... Thanks in anticipation.

[Nomad9]

Hi Ean,
Great help, thanks very much.

[Ean Austral]

I think with where the thermostat sits it would be hard to have coolant in the valley if the housing is leaking.

Here is a copy of the coolant system, just need to see which is yours..manual or auto

Cheers Ean

[Nomad9]

Hi CaverD3,
Scratch that, the thermostat housings I'm assuming you are talking about is in the front LH side of the engine, if that is the case I checked that yesterday, all good so far. The water is leaking into the valley of the engine, not to the floor.

[Nomad9]

HI Ean,
I agree, I got mixed up for a moment, I thought Caver meant the housing under the Y piece.

[Nomad9]

Hi Ean,
Sorry, Auto, missed that bit.............

[CaverD3]

Thermostat housing is plastic and when mine leaked the coolant travelled to the back of the engine. Conensation could be seen on top of the air inlet and throttle body.

[CaverD3]

There are several hose connections around there. Oil cooler amongst others.

[Nomad9]

Hi Forumites,
Progress so far..........got the "procedure" from Ean and proceeded to strip things out. Got the air box elbow off, disconnected al the wiring, released the EGR clips, removed the bolt that secures the intake air shutoff throttle, all good so far...... oh and released the fuel return line valve.
Removed the AST and now I've found traces of red "juice" underneath where the join is in the water outlet housing. Took some pix from inside the inlet manifold, looks a bit grubby, and only done 115k....... amazing. I've included a couple of pix for you to look at.
Now to remove the water outlet housing........... a job for next weekend..........business calls..

Based on what I've found now and the two D3's I've had before I reckon this could be quite a common problem. On my last D3 I had a distinct hot coolant smell but could never find a leak, I used maybe a half a litre between services.
I'm going to assume that if this outlet housing has a very slight leak, more so when under load the slight drip will leak into the engine valley and due to the temperature of the engine the water will flash off creating this smell of hot coolant. Only when the leak gets big enough to fill up the valley and leak out at the back of the engine would you be any the wiser.
Thats my theory and I'm sticking to it. I test drove at least three other D3's when purchasing the one I used to own and two of them had low coolant levels and no signs of water leakage, the owners just told me it was normal and they topped up every month or so.
Something to be aware of, my Range rover drove around for a week or so and never lost a drop, went up into the hills for a lunch and lo and behold the old girl used about 500ml, now I know where it went to and that the capacity of the engine valley is around 500 ml.
Hope you get something from my findings.

[Ean Austral]

Will have a look at the workshop manual and see , but would expect there to be some o-rings in that housing, likely to warp abit as it only looks like plastic.

Thanks for the update.

Cheers Ean

[CaverD3]

I think that is the thermostat housing. Exactly as you say is plastic warps and leaks then will eventually fail. Common issue on many modern engines.

[CaverD3]

Inlet is normal for a car with EGRs. If it <MY07 you can blank them off. If older you will get a fault message.
Make sure your map sensor is clean that gunk can block it up.

[Nomad9]

Hi CaverD3,
This apparently is the referred to as the outlet housing, the thermostat housing is on the bottom left hand side of the radiator, accessible from the nearside wheel arch, the new one I've bought hasn't got a thermostat in it (thank you Sneigy). Also Ean the split in the housing is a moulded split there isn't an o-ring and this joint can't be separated without wrecking the housing, it can't be repaired so the outlet housing now is basically scrap. When I get the housing out I'm going to cut it up to have a look at the failure mechanism.
I'll post the results.

[CaverD3]

That explains the confusion. That is the bit that failed on mine, was told it was the thermostat housing.
The description in the bill says 'leaking from thermstat housing'. But the part is listed as RO1357091 outlet-water.

[Ean Austral]

Just looked and the manual refers to it as "water outlet housing" so would have assumed it would be mounted with a or a couple of O'rings but will await your findings.

Cheers Ean

[Nomad9]

Hi Ean,
Couldn't resist the temptation I've removed the housing, yes there are two seals that seal the ports to the block, these aren't leaking, however, the housing is in two parts sealed with some sort of plugged off rivet set up, this is the bit that can't be repaired and I suspect is leaking. Nothing obvious though.........!

[Ean Austral]

Hi Ean,
Couldn't resist the temptation I've removed the housing, yes there are two seals that seal the ports to the block, these aren't leaking, however, the housing is in two parts sealed with some sort of plugged off rivet set up, this is the bit that can't be repaired and I suspect is leaking. Nothing obvious though.........!

Interesting, we used to have heaps of problems on the trawlers with plastic housings leaking on pumps etc, think its likely the temp ranges they work in..

Smother it in 5 min Araldite, let it sit for a few hours and see if it seals...got nothing to loose if you need to get a new one.. I reckon 5 min araldite is a tube of miracle's.

Thanks for the update.

Cheers Ean

[CaverD3]

What Ean said. :BigThumb:

But replace the rivets with some S/S nuts and bolts to hold it. :idea:

Part is not exe $22.16 but fixing it may make a better part. coolant will be more expensive. :o

[Nomad9]

Hi Guys,
I got a new one from Sneigy last week when I was in Melbourne ($30), I'm going to look at fixing the old one when I've fitted the new one. I have access to a casting mob, I'm going to look at them casing me one out of ally. I suspect this is a bit out there but they have a new three D modelling set up which looks pretty sexy, might be worth a shot.

[CaverD3]

Exellent idea :BigThumb:

Could be a good seller. :D

[Ean Austral]

Hi Guys,
I got a new one from Sneigy last week when I was in Melbourne ($30), I'm going to look at fixing the old one when I've fitted the new one. I have access to a casting mob, I'm going to look at them casing me one out of ally. I suspect this is a bit out there but they have a new three D modelling set up which looks pretty sexy, might be worth a shot.

Keep us informed, seems as tho its a matter of WHEN, not if ,the part will fail, so will be interested at the right $$$

Cheers Ean

[Glynhouse]

For what it is worth I have just had a major 6 year 100K service done new suspension arms and a complete trans oil change and metal pan done. D3-MY07 Dec 06 build.
The one thing the service mob (not a dealer) advised/insisted was that I should change the outlet housing, before it split ! They carried a stock of them.

DD

[Nomad9]

Hi Forumites,
So in closing, I've now refitted a new outlet housing, and so far so good, no leaks. My lessons learned here. There are two sensors in the air throttle body and air box elbow, if you intend to clean the items whilst you have them off make sure you remove these sensors, these sensors will hurt your wallet if you damage them, I was quoted over a grand for the two of them, something to be mindful of.
The two clips that hold the EGR pipes on, buy new ones just in case, at $6 new ones are cheap insurance, easy to get back on, maybe not so, I got mine back on but required a little bit of innovation, I'm sure I wasn't doing something right.
Carry an outlet housing spare, take it away as a trip spare, I can't imagine the guy at Fitzroy crossing have one on the shelf. Go by the coolant filling procedure, if you don't it doesn't fill properly, 3000 rpm for a minute may seem a little gruesome, it does work.
When I stripped the outlet housing out not much water drained out of the housing and hoses, it took two litres to fill the system back to where it should be. From this I would assume that despite the system looking to be full before I started there was two litres of air in the system somewhere, I can only assume now that this would be the top of the radiator and the top of the outlet housing, based on this I suspect that the housing would have been warmer than normal which could well have compounded the issue.
Something of note, the sensor just down stream of the butterfly valve on top of the throttle housing was quite plugged up with gunk, I cleaned this all out with electrical cleaner, the engine now seems more responsive and seems to go a little better, might just be psychological, but it appears so.
DON'T go prodding around inside the hole only wash it out, the sensor is sensitive and does cost over $500, and neither LR agent in Perth had one.
I was advised to use electrical cleaner or brake cleaner for cleaning the sensors.

Hope this is of some use to people out there. :clap2:

[CaverD3]

Not just your imagination:

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Go and clean you MAP Sensor NOW!!! (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic64159.html)

[Sm0Ke]

hey guys whilst I realise this will be a thread revival, I keep hitting a brick wall when talking with my local dealer. I've sprung a leak from what (according to this thread) would be the water outlet housing. I've attached a pic to show where the leak is.
The parts guy is saying it only comes with hoses connected and "is an expensive part" - his words. I said we couldn't be describing the same thing. So I figure I'd try my luck here so I can arm myself with the correct part no before trying to get down there.

He sent me the catalogue extract where I have circled the part I think it should be, is this correct? could anyone fill me in a little clearer?

thanks

[Sm0Ke]

actually I think I may have found the part number
1357091 (http://www.advancedfactors.co.uk/1357091-coolant-thermostat-housing-27-tdv6-5142-p.asp)?

[Ean Austral]

If its the outlet housing that has been mentioned, I carry a spare and think the cost was $39. I got mine from TRS in Lonsdale and it never came with hoses.


Cheers Ean

[crawal]

try this off ebay
Land Rover Discovery 3 4 Thermostat Housing Range Rover Sport 1357091 Genuine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Land-Rover-Discovery-3-4-Thermostat-Housing-Range-Rover-Sport-1357091-Genuine-/191373535800?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c8ec06a38)

[Sm0Ke]

Thanks guys, After 3 phone calls and some guidance in the form of a picture of the part from another website, several pictures detailing where the part is located in the engine bay and the actual part number, the parts guy said "oh yeh, I thought that part was made of cast! that's why I never caught that one."

A facepalm moment, and to rub salt into the wounds after checking one was in stock & telling me it was all good I set off to go grab it only to be emailed and told he couldn't find it... bring on the good times!:censored:

[LandyAndy]

If its the outlet housing that has been mentioned, I carry a spare and think the cost was $39. I got mine from TRS in Lonsdale and it never came with hoses.


Cheers Ean

Is this a 2.7L issue only????
Wondering if it needs to be on a 3.0 D4 travelers parts list too????
Andrew

[Rich84]

3.0 probably has similar fittings, but it isn't really old enough for this to be a mass problem yet. I only just replaced a similar housing on my Audi A4 and that's a 2001 model! Might be a sensible move to replace it every 150K km as a precautionary. Usually ABS plastic will last that long.

[rar110]

Is this a 2.7L issue only???? Wondering if it needs to be on a 3.0 D4 travelers parts list too???? Andrew

The thermostat housing on my FFRR tdv8 was replaced about a year ago by PO. The part would probably be the same on a RRS with same motor.

[Graeme]

Unless my memory is totally caput the 3.0 takes the same part number.

Edit: Confirmed same part number for 3.0.

[Rich84]

Was dusting the engine off last night when I happened to notice my water outlet with a nice pink stain around the seam where it has been leaking. 08 TDV6 RRS with 206K. Water has not needed topping up for the last year, so I'm guessing it must be in the early stages.

Picking up a replacement today from Rovacraft for $34.00.

[bpk]

Need some help here - I have just been quoted over $500 by a specialist mechanic to replace what sounds a lot like the water outlet part no 1357091 that you guys have been talking about. They said its a plastic part that can fail and lead to drastic coolant loss, that its a cheap part but needs 'about 4 hours' labour. Is this realistic?
Reading elsewhere a mechanic suggests doing it when you are doing the timing belt to save the labour cost of going in for the coolant part... a better idea?
What does a timing belt normally cost?
:confused:

[Fatso]

Need some help here - I have just been quoted over $500 by a specialist mechanic to replace what sounds a lot like the water outlet part no 1357091 that you guys have been talking about. They said its a plastic part that can fail and lead to drastic coolant loss, that its a cheap part but needs 'about 4 hours' labour. Is this realistic?
Reading elsewhere a mechanic suggests doing it when you are doing the timing belt to save the labour cost of going in for the coolant part... a better idea?
What does a timing belt normally cost?
:confused:



4 hrs labour sounds excessive , the part is about $40/50 bucks . I carry a spare in my back up box .

[Epic pooh]

I dunno how this all is on the diesel, but I changed the thermo housing and multiple hoses and bleeder (including removal of the intake manifold to get hoses to the back of the motor) and refilled coolant in about 2.5-3 hours. I did a lot more than just change the thermo housing .... So 4 hours from a pro sounds like a lot to me but not sure how hard this is on a diesel.

[bpk]

Thanks, I will ask them again about all of this - has anyone had a pro do just this part?
My service has turned into a $3000 plus bill including being over $1100 for lower bushes and ball joints, reading through this forum has been a great help and I will ask about doing full arms instead. Love the D3 and happy to give her what she needs but don't want to waste money of course.

2005 D3 TDV6 S.