TD6 Shudder problem

[uteman]

There may be some folk out there who have remembered the saga of my TD6 engine which has all sorts of issues following a dose (or doses) of diesel fuel that was blended with animal/vegetable oil plus it had 22 times the allowable limit of moisture.
Injectors were rebuilt (some replaced) but this took some time and was done over time as local dealer's fault finding was a bit less than I might have hoped for.
The last time I got the car back from them it had a knock in the engine which they said had nothing to do with them. An independant repair shop found they had left the boost sensor disconnected at the rear of the inlet manifold. Knock reduced now but still evident and this could be from bad fuel damaging a piston or as a result of the boost sensor having been left off for a few days.
All comments will be welcomed.
On top of that the auto has failed and the car has been with what I deem to be the best automatic transmission repair shop in my home state.
After fitting two rebuilt transmissions that were each dyno tested before installation the car has a shudder at around 90 kph which is around torque convertor lock-up speed. The torque convertor has also been re-built twice and they cannot find anything that would cause the shudder and now beleive that it is engine related.
The shudder is only evident at what I would call a critical speed and/or engine speed and then it disappears.
The complete driveline has been checked and all is OK.
Car has 114,000 kilometres on the clock and was purchased new.

Has anyone ever experienced such a fault?

[Summiitt]

Yep, I've recently had a fully rebuilt tranny and a brand new transfer case installed and I have a slight shudder, normally on cruise control at about 80-90 km, in top gear when approaching a hill, before kickdown, it's gearbox, not engine...not sure quite what though!

[Laurie]

When the gearbox was re-built did they replace the torque control solenoid in the box ? This is responsible for lock-up in the torque converter; if it wasn't operating properly than slippage or shudder could occur.
This was one of the items we discussed in the H/D rebuild of the 5L40E a few pages back.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:jGBkkyG0xwUJ:www.autolinkautomatics.com/gallery/images/1109/file/5L40E%2520Thrust%2520Washers%2520-%2520Borg%2520Warner%2520Solenoids.pdf+pressure+re gulator+solenoid+5L40E&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgM3fywqhUAAwJEOQkX5BjTOTIFbG9cVQP6LA_s dUd65_J_nbXxHBrQHkLyEMNy6Iccn3M5gamp30M7960MHWklW_ WhZ2GF1lkGJOeeZfD6-XxzuixnFwUj0UlQFyeq9XOW5si4&sig=AHIEtbRdOiFPvAtO0olqQcDLvo3cC7rw1A

[uteman]

I have no idea if they have replaced this item but I will inquire. Thanks for the lead.

[uteman]

Yep, I've recently had a fully rebuilt tranny and a brand new transfer case installed and I have a slight shudder, normally on cruise control at about 80-90 km, in top gear when approaching a hill, before kickdown, it's gearbox, not engine...not sure quite what though!

Was there any sign of this shudder before the original transmission failed?
I certainly had not experiened it previously.
I have only had a test drive at the auto shop but it came in as I was gently accelarating and at the same speed range as your car is experiencing the shudderer at.

[neil 90]

Hi Uteman,

I have the exact same problem and over the last few weeks have tried to sort it out.

I had a fuel system problem causing a different type of judder so got this fixed first. replaced low pressure fuel pump and no1 injector and injector harness.
with that fixed ok I took it to the auto transmission guy who is great and i trust him 100%. he agreed that it was the convertor playing up when trying to lock and unlock. he gave me the option off a new convertor and a check of the gearbox when it was out. but all things considered with my car having 215k on the clock i would be up for a gearbox and convertor at approx $7k, which seems about right.
He rang me when he dropped the sump and said the fluid was low and dirty and recommended a flush and service to see if we can get a few more klms out of it.
with this done the changes are a lot better and the delay going into drive when cold has gone. but the convertor judder is still there.
I have learnt to get around this problem by knowing when its going to do it and moving the stick over to sport mode as this unlocks the convertor without any juddering at all. even at 100kph this doesnt rev too much and works a treat.
the auto guy says see how it goes and if we can get another 12months out of it then great as he doesnt reckon it can do any more harm and wont suddenly break down on me.
Ive done about 4k since and its going great as long as i manually unlock the convertor when required.

hope this helps

neil

[Laurie]

Have you tried using Manual/Sport mode to compare the gear changes ?

If the shudder disappears when using sport mode it's a fair indication of a drop of "inline pressure" ! As this mode increases line pressure for the performance gear changes.

Laurie

[uteman]

Laurie: I will have to either get the shop to try this or travel there again for a further test drive but one way or the other I will check it out and get back to you. Thanks very much.

[Laurie]

Uteman
I forgot to ask initally, BUT did they flush the oil cooler system when the gearboxes failed ? if they didn't any debris would have been sent back to the T/C, pump and valve body and the breakdown of metal would start again straight away. If they didn't flush the system I would be asking for a full warranty re-build. These GM boxes are a nightmare , hence our seeking a alternative !

Laurie

[uteman]

Uteman
I forgot to ask initally, BUT did they flush the oil cooler system when the gearboxes failed ? if they didn't any debris would have been sent back to the T/C, pump and valve body and the breakdown of metal would start again straight away. If they didn't flush the system I would be asking for a full warranty re-build. These GM boxes are a nightmare , hence our seeking a alternative !

Laurie
Good question to ask but yes this was done.
At this stage I have not collected the car as they want to do one more test which invloves fitting a pressure indicator into the cooler lines to monitor the system whilst driving. If I have to take the car with the shudder and try to get it sorted as an engine problem and then find it cannot be fixed that way and then have to go back and forth I will not be a happy camper.

[uteman]

Good question to ask but yes this was done.
At this stage I have not collected the car as they want to do one more test which invloves fitting a pressure indicator into the cooler lines to monitor the system whilst driving. If I have to take the car with the shudder and try to get it sorted as an engine problem and then find it cannot be fixed that way and then have to go back and forth I will not be a happy camper.

I have been back to the auto trans facility today and am now quite confident that the trouble is with the engine and not the auto.
Car will have its umpteenth tow truck ride to a Land Rover workshop tomorrow.

[Homestar]

I have been back to the auto trans facility today and am now quite confident that the trouble is with the engine and not the auto.
Car will have its umpteenth tow truck ride to a Land Rover workshop tomorrow.

No names will be mentioned, but another member on here has had a heap of issues with a Land Rover workshop when they were trying to diagnose an engine rattle - they didn't manage to fix it.

PM sent.

[uteman]

No names will be mentioned, but another member on here has had a heap of issues with a Land Rover workshop when they were trying to diagnose an engine rattle - they didn't manage to fix it.

PM sent.

Bacicat:
I think my car would run and hide if I tried to take it to where I believe you are referring

[neil 90]

please let us know the outcome, hope its a good one.

[uteman]

Well: after advising that all was Ok with the auto that appears to be incorrect.
The engine workshop found that one of the injectors that I had re-built and tested was playing up so they fitted a new one. I also got them to boroscope the cylinders and everything internal looks ok.
Result: The engine finally runs like the day I collected the car when new.
Even the internal engine "tapping" sound has gone and that must have been injection related.
Of course the injector service people do not seem to be in a hurry to part with any of the money that I paid hoping for a good job.

It seems that we had two shudder problems. One caused by the engine whereby the engine and car would shudder at take off on a slight incline and this was engine related.
The shudder at torque convertor lock-up speed is sadly still evident so yet another ride on a flat top back to the auto shop. (Car was smiling as it loves those as it is so used to them).
I went and talked with auto repair folk and they are being good about it and prepared to face the challenge and get it right no matter the cost. Right now I am happy that at least the engine is OK
There is still a chance that I will come in under 4 months from the start of problems that started with the bad fuel and went on from there.

[Daniel]

Good question to ask but yes this was done.
At this stage I have not collected the car as they want to do one more test which invloves fitting a pressure indicator into the cooler lines to monitor the system whilst driving. If I have to take the car with the shudder and try to get it sorted as an engine problem and then find it cannot be fixed that way and then have to go back and forth I will not be a happy camper.

Just my 2 cents worth - if you spending $1000s on tranny rebuilds etc etc why not purchase a HawkEye and do some proper diagnostics while you are at it.

I can't see a tranny mechanic fitting a pressure gauge and going for a drive doing much good - sounds like your mechanic is a little out of his depth in modern motor design skills.

The L322, as with most modern motor cars, has the EMS and tranny ECUs cross linked so that a "shudder" is inextricably linked through the whole drivetrain. It can result from any parameter being out of spec in the engine-tranny assembly.

With HawkEye you can monitor in real time every engine function to see if there is some issue that is causing the "shudder".

The EMS and tranny ECUs will possible also have error/fault codes logged that may disclose what the issue is or what is causing it.

[101RRS]

Maybe some of the latter posts on this thread concerning additives might be of interest.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/155350-d3-tdv6-torque-convertor-problem.html#post1745683

Garry

[uteman]

Just my 2 cents worth - if you spending $1000s on tranny rebuilds etc etc why not purchase a HawkEye and do some proper diagnostics while you are at it.

I can't see a tranny mechanic fitting a pressure gauge and going for a drive doing much good - sounds like your mechanic is a little out of his depth in modern motor design skills.

The L322, as with most modern motor cars, has the EMS and tranny ECUs cross linked so that a "shudder" is inextricably linked through the whole drivetrain. It can result from any parameter being out of spec in the engine-tranny assembly.

With HawkEye you can monitor in real time every engine function to see if there is some issue that is causing the "shudder".

The EMS and tranny ECUs will possible also have error/fault codes logged that may disclose what the issue is or what is causing it.

Daniel:
Comments appreciated however I must advise that the shop in question has the most comprehensive diagnostic and testing equipment that I believe you will ever find in an automatic transmission shop in this country.
The fitting of the gauge (which in the end did not occur and I wont explain that here) was going to be a last resort check in addition to all the diagnostics.
I have faith in the shop and now that the shudder from the engine has gone with the fitting of a new injector they will no doubt have a better chance to get on top of this.
I have no knowledge of Hawkeye but I do have a Falutmate MSV2 and that has also been tried but I do believe that the equipment that the shop has is far supperior.
They have dynos with computer readout to test auto prior to installation and whilst this shudder does appear to be an issue at the moment the car is a better shop than most I have seen.
I have seen other postings where similar cars also have a shudder at lockup speed so the outcome will be of interest to others. A replacement transmission computer has been tried with the same result. Certain upgrades have been incorporated into the rebuild. I do not believe for a moment that this shop is out of their depth. The result may as I have said end up being of interest to other owners who have a shudder following transmission rebuild.I will share the outcome

[uteman]

Daniel:
Comments appreciated however I must advise that the shop in question has the most comprehensive diagnostic and testing equipment that I believe you will ever find in an automatic transmission shop in this country.
The fitting of the gauge (which in the end did not occur and I wont explain that here) was going to be a last resort check in addition to all the diagnostics.
I have faith in the shop and now that the shudder from the engine has gone with the fitting of a new injector they will no doubt have a better chance to get on top of this.
I have no knowledge of Hawkeye but I do have a Falutmate MSV2 and that has also been tried but I do believe that the equipment that the shop has is far supperior.
They have dynos with computer readout to test auto prior to installation and whilst this shudder does appear to be an issue at the moment the car is a better shop than most I have seen.
I have seen other postings where similar cars also have a shudder at lockup speed so the outcome will be of interest to others. A replacement transmission computer has been tried with the same result. Certain upgrades have been incorporated into the rebuild. I do not believe for a moment that this shop is out of their depth. The result may as I have said end up being of interest to other owners who have a shudder following transmission rebuild.I will share the outcome

More from uteman:
Well here I am a few days into the 5th month since my car problems started and still do not have a car to drive.
The auto shop now feel once again that the problem is with the engine and reckon that it is misfiring again so another tow truck ride to the car service facilty will happen on Monday 10th Sept..
The auto shop rebuilt the 4th transmission and torque convertor for the car and still have shudder at lock up speed.The original change over trasnsmission that was fitted to the car is now in another vehicle with no issues whatsoever.
If anyone thinks I am over this they dont know the half of it.
I even used expletives today and do not like to do that.

[Daniel]

More from uteman:
Well here I am a few days into the 5th month since my car problems started and still do not have a car to drive.
The auto shop now feel once again that the problem is with the engine and reckon that it is misfiring again so another tow truck ride to the car service facilty will happen on Monday 10th Sept..
The auto shop rebuilt the 4th transmission and torque convertor for the car and still have shudder at lock up speed.The original change over trasnsmission that was fitted to the car is now in another vehicle with no issues whatsoever.
If anyone thinks I am over this they dont know the half of it.
I even used expletives today and do not like to do that.

Doesn't this prove that your workshop indeed does not have comprehensive diagnostic equipment or if they do then they do not know what they are doing with it?

If it is the engine misfiring or something of that nature then the EMS ECU would be logging codes - even a basic $30 diagnostic BT device off eBay will show up error codes for such issues.

If you have a faultmate then you can do the diagnosis yourself - it is not rocket science! Clear all error codes and then take the truck for a 1 km drive and see what errors come up.

Also I assume that your workshop has checked all drive and suspension assemblies for loose/worn components. A shudder at TC lockup can be caused by a simple engine/transmission/prop shaft/diff mount/CV failure. Even an exhaust mount can induce an issue as you are having.

Has your workshop investigated transfer transmission components? Have you checked that the shudder still occurs at the same engine RPM and in the same gear in low range as it does in high range?

Has your workshop placed your truck on a dyno and observed all the mechanical components at the point of the shudder occurring?

As with all problems one needs to start by eliminating the most basic and working your way up the chain. It could be that your workshop may have started at the wrong end?

[Homestar]

If it is the engine misfiring or something of that nature then the EMS ECU would be logging codes - even a basic $30 diagnostic BT device off eBay will show up error codes for such issues.


All well and good Dan, but a crook injector won't nessesarliy bring fault codes up...

[harlie]

Exactly Gav! This is the big problem with electronics and peoples blind reliance that electronics are great – well not this exact example but the notion of everything that is reported must be gospel (bit like the media really).

Now, as some here know, I’m the biggest fan of electronics, I’ve got a habit of converting everything electrical in sight to run a programmable integrated interface – just for the hell of it. Several years ago, my wife asked, “why do you need to be able to turn the kitchen light on/off from anywhere in the world?” I replied “O come on, you don’t think it’s cool that an internet connection in London can click a button that sends a command that is transferred through several different protocols, over several mediums including a standard 240v power line to operate a tiny relay hidden in the wall within a couple milliseconds.” Eyes were rolled as she walk away - she does quietly think it’s cool that she can turn the heating/cooling on or off or just check the inside temp at home, or the pool water temp from her desk at work in the city (or phone on the way home) before she plans her evening! Anyway back on track.

Problem: Assuming that all electronic/electrical issues will log a fault is very naïve – it’s an idealistic notion but that’s it. After reading uteman’s posts I am assuming that he’s NOT a moron. The Electronic Control Modules only log faults for issues/errors/scenarios that they know about, someone has to write the code that executes - firstly in the event of a fault occurring (input from sensors or network data values are identified by the main program), and secondly the entries (fault detail) that are logged. If the ECU receives an analogue value from a sensor or digital value from the network that the original designer did not consider would be received then 2 possibilities commonly happen, either it handles the exception and a vague fault is logged (no or incorrect details recorded) or nothing (the car continues as if nothing is wrong – the computers are oblivious to the issue). I’m trying to ignore the 3rd possibility of unhandled exceptions, which would have the chance of creating a really unpleasant scenario.

What uteman describes here (no one else has seen/heard/felt what’s going on), is typical of the system being oblivious. This could well be a drive train issue, but personally I don’t think so - the lockup should be smooth enough to not cause a drive train shudder and if it is drive train I would think you would feel something during normal gear changes as well. However like vehicle computers, I have ‘returned’ incorrect advice in the past and could be wrong here.

As an example of issues that the ECUs won’t record think about this. The Trans computer (TCU) sends a request to the Engine computer (EMS) when lock up is required. The EMS receives this and reduces engine torque (to allow smoother change) at the same time it sends a message back to the TCU with timing details. TCU receives this message and times the signal (to the millisecond) to the lockup solenoid. The signal to the lockup solenoid is analogue (the TCU outputs voltage from +0.5 to +12v on a dedicated wire which is earthed somewhere – this wire is different to the wire that engages each gear change).
If this wire (or connectors) has extra resistance for some reason (dirt/grease/oil/rust) the voltage received by the solenoid will be vastly lower than expected – Or what if the circuit board/capacitor/mosfet ect (inside TCU) has deteriorated to the point where it is actually outputting lower/higher voltage. Does the solenoid open/respond at the same speed with reduced controlling voltage? Don’t know, but I do know that there will not be a fault logged in any ECU for an example like this, firstly the developer would not have considered it and secondly the TCU is not monitoring what is received by the transmission.

Gav’s point of the injector above is great – the EMS does not check whether the nozzle piezo opens, let alone how much fuel is squirted in. It just checks that a circuit is plugged in and able to receive voltage – it could even be a small resistance short because that check has no redundancy.

These types of scenarios highlights the problem with Computer controlled mechanicals, and it’s not limited to cars. Everything that is controlled by computer where the final output is not monitored with redundancy is prone (down to simple things like my pool heating, computer told the valve to open diverting water to the roof for heating – someone (me) had accidentally cut the wire while gardening so that signal was never received by the valve – computer was happy the pool was heating – mrs wasn’t!).

This is the issue I have with computers in modern cars; there is no where near enough monitoring for the electronics to provide complete diagnostics – we all hear stories about funny errors solved by replacing a sensor. The problem is compounded by the attitude of many people (including dealers & mechanics) that the electronics always report everything and accurately. There is no where near enough focus on signal/data checking.

In short a fault is only logged for an error that the ECU receives and expects.

If it was me (because this is my field) I would be checking that the messages between EMS and TCU are indeed on the BUS and that their timing matches. Then check the analogue signal and comparing them to another vehicle. Unfortunately that is above most mechanics – just like rebuilding a transmission and torque converter is above me.

So it’s not the Transmission, Maybe try another TCU and check the wiring loom and every connector.

I’m sorry to hear your pain uteman – I was there with our D2 some 10 yrs ago while still under warranty, after every sensor, loom and injector was replaced, they replaced the EMS and the weird problem was gone, ironically it was torque converter related (only partially lock and then would get surging)… At the time I had a dealer mechanic tell me that it “couldn’t possibly be a computer issue because the other computers would log errors.” I responded as would be expected, I remember being so crapped off with it I wouldn't look at it…. Other than sensors the engine and transmission wasn’t touched, it was a near new car – we still have it, trouble free.

[Daniel]

Thank you Harlie

I think that in a long winded and round about way you have substantiated my advice - mechanics that blindly follow previous routine service techniques do not always get their diagnosis correct. And one should always start at the most simple and work up the complication scale.

[uteman]

Exactly Gav! This is the big problem with electronics and peoples blind reliance that electronics are great – well not this exact example but the notion of everything that is reported must be gospel (bit like the media really).

Now, as some here know, I’m the biggest fan of electronics, I’ve got a habit of converting everything electrical in sight to run a programmable integrated interface – just for the hell of it. Several years ago, my wife asked, “why do you need to be able to turn the kitchen light on/off from anywhere in the world?” I replied “O come on, you don’t think it’s cool that an internet connection in London can click a button that sends a command that is transferred through several different protocols, over several mediums including a standard 240v power line to operate a tiny relay hidden in the wall within a couple milliseconds.” Eyes were rolled as she walk away - she does quietly think it’s cool that she can turn the heating/cooling on or off or just check the inside temp at home, or the pool water temp from her desk at work in the city (or phone on the way home) before she plans her evening! Anyway back on track.

Problem: Assuming that all electronic/electrical issues will log a fault is very naïve – it’s an idealistic notion but that’s it. After reading uteman’s posts I am assuming that he’s NOT a moron. The Electronic Control Modules only log faults for issues/errors/scenarios that they know about, someone has to write the code that executes - firstly in the event of a fault occurring (input from sensors or network data values are identified by the main program), and secondly the entries (fault detail) that are logged. If the ECU receives an analogue value from a sensor or digital value from the network that the original designer did not consider would be received then 2 possibilities commonly happen, either it handles the exception and a vague fault is logged (no or incorrect details recorded) or nothing (the car continues as if nothing is wrong – the computers are oblivious to the issue). I’m trying to ignore the 3rd possibility of unhandled exceptions, which would have the chance of creating a really unpleasant scenario.

What uteman describes here (no one else has seen/heard/felt what’s going on), is typical of the system being oblivious. This could well be a drive train issue, but personally I don’t think so - the lockup should be smooth enough to not cause a drive train shudder and if it is drive train I would think you would feel something during normal gear changes as well. However like vehicle computers, I have ‘returned’ incorrect advice in the past and could be wrong here.

As an example of issues that the ECUs won’t record think about this. The Trans computer (TCU) sends a request to the Engine computer (EMS) when lock up is required. The EMS receives this and reduces engine torque (to allow smoother change) at the same time it sends a message back to the TCU with timing details. TCU receives this message and times the signal (to the millisecond) to the lockup solenoid. The signal to the lockup solenoid is analogue (the TCU outputs voltage from +0.5 to +12v on a dedicated wire which is earthed somewhere – this wire is different to the wire that engages each gear change).
If this wire (or connectors) has extra resistance for some reason (dirt/grease/oil/rust) the voltage received by the solenoid will be vastly lower than expected – Or what if the circuit board/capacitor/mosfet ect (inside TCU) has deteriorated to the point where it is actually outputting lower/higher voltage. Does the solenoid open/respond at the same speed with reduced controlling voltage? Don’t know, but I do know that there will not be a fault logged in any ECU for an example like this, firstly the developer would not have considered it and secondly the TCU is not monitoring what is received by the transmission.

Gav’s point of the injector above is great – the EMS does not check whether the nozzle piezo opens, let alone how much fuel is squirted in. It just checks that a circuit is plugged in and able to receive voltage – it could even be a small resistance short because that check has no redundancy.

These types of scenarios highlights the problem with Computer controlled mechanicals, and it’s not limited to cars. Everything that is controlled by computer where the final output is not monitored with redundancy is prone (down to simple things like my pool heating, computer told the valve to open diverting water to the roof for heating – someone (me) had accidentally cut the wire while gardening so that signal was never received by the valve – computer was happy the pool was heating – mrs wasn’t!).

This is the issue I have with computers in modern cars; there is no where near enough monitoring for the electronics to provide complete diagnostics – we all hear stories about funny errors solved by replacing a sensor. The problem is compounded by the attitude of many people (including dealers & mechanics) that the electronics always report everything and accurately. There is no where near enough focus on signal/data checking.

In short a fault is only logged for an error that the ECU receives and expects.

If it was me (because this is my field) I would be checking that the messages between EMS and TCU are indeed on the BUS and that their timing matches. Then check the analogue signal and comparing them to another vehicle. Unfortunately that is above most mechanics – just like rebuilding a transmission and torque converter is above me.

So it’s not the Transmission, Maybe try another TCU and check the wiring loom and every connector.

I’m sorry to hear your pain uteman – I was there with our D2 some 10 yrs ago while still under warranty, after every sensor, loom and injector was replaced, they replaced the EMS and the weird problem was gone, ironically it was torque converter related (only partially lock and then would get surging)… At the time I had a dealer mechanic tell me that it “couldn’t possibly be a computer issue because the other computers would log errors.” I responded as would be expected, I remember being so crapped off with it I wouldn't look at it…. Other than sensors the engine and transmission wasn’t touched, it was a near new car – we still have it, trouble free.

Harlie: You are either quick at typing or had time in your hands.
A replacement TCU was trialed some time back with no difference.
You have provided some other possibilties that are worth looking at.
I certainly agree with you about the lack of diagnostic skills in many shops these days. If the computers do not show a problem to the diagnostic equipment that has many thinking that nothing can really be wrong.
I still have great faith in the auto transmission shop who are determined to see this through and again this shop has some great transmission diagnostic equipment but sometimes it still comes down to thinking the problem through and looking for the unexpected.
At this time the car is with them so I am not personally involved in trying to sort out the issues however they have been very receptive to my input that may come from my own background or comments such as yours.
Thanks for the detailed post.

[uteman]

Well: I have the car back home at last. The auto shop fitted a transmission from another TD6 and fitted my reco unit to that vehicle. Car still had shudder at around 90 kph.
I expected this as I did have a chance to drive the vehicle and stated that I did not believe the transmission to be at fault.
Car has a "diesel knock" again so I have ordered new injectors as I simply could not risk getting mine serviced again and would never do that again.
Cost wise: I had fitted 3 new injectors by the time I identified the bad fuel including moisture so rack up about $1400 for those. Then had to get all injectors including those 3 new ones serviced as they also had water through them. One of those immediately turned out to be a problem causing a significant diesel knock and had to be replaced with another new one. Ka-ching, Ka-ching and another $1100 including labour. What made that worse was that the failed injector was one that only did about 300 K's before being removed for service by what I had hoped was a good diesel service facility. Did I mention the $1223 they charged for servicing?
Now the car has a further diesel knock meaning that a further "serviced" injector is giving trouble so I have 5 more coming from UK. Yes you guessed it Ka-ching, Ka-ching goes another $1600 bucks and the injector service facility appear to be deaf when I ask for some compensation. My money must all be round! made round to go around and none made flat to stack.
However I do smile that the car is sitting in my driveway under my control at last. With my back operation now a memory I can work on it myself and even kick my own backside if I get it wrong which I doubt.
Thanks to everyone who listed and contributed.

[neil 90]

Hi uteman, how did you go with your new injectors? Is it all good now ?

[Homestar]

Hi uteman, how did you go with your new injectors? Is it all good now ?

Not sure if he is checking the forum at the moment - he is off the radar for a couple of weeks doing stuff - fun stuff that I would like to be doing...:D

Cheers - Gav

[neil 90]

Cheers gav, thanks for the heads up :-)

[uteman]

As many will recall this car has been a problem for some time.
The shuder turned out to be from the engine. I had previously had the injectors reconditioned and the car had been to 2 different Land Rover workshops since and their determination was that the engine was OK.
I have now fitted brand new injectors and the car is so smooth now that I am over the moon.
The Bosch ECU manual does state that if you have greater than 15 rpm difference in cylinder speeds at idle that you have a problem. Our car did have greater than that but workshops were not concerned. Now that my Faultmate reads a difference of only 10 rpm at idle that car is like a new one so believe what Bosch say.

[Laurie]

Uteman thats great news. I just wish that the cure could have been earlier and cheaper. I would have a word with the workshops too, if the cyclinder idles were out of specs why didn't they do/try something ?

Laurie

[justinc]

Well I would expect that a cylinder balance test would've been carried out around the time the injector issues were being sorted, and current tolerances checked. For example the td5 ECU will log a fault code if any of the cylinders requires a + or - 15 to balance. Even the constant appearance of a 10 or 11 is getting close to investigating oil in the harness or a poor injector coil etc.

Glad it is all fixed, now go and enjoy it!!!

JC

[Daniel]

As many will recall this car has been a problem for some time.
The shuder turned out to be from the engine. I had previously had the injectors reconditioned and the car had been to 2 different Land Rover workshops since and their determination was that the engine was OK.
I have now fitted brand new injectors and the car is so smooth now that I am over the moon.
The Bosch ECU manual does state that if you have greater than 15 rpm difference in cylinder speeds at idle that you have a problem. Our car did have greater than that but workshops were not concerned. Now that my Faultmate reads a difference of only 10 rpm at idle that car is like a new one so believe what Bosch say.


Now isn't this great news? Something that a simple self diagnosis would have determined! And yet when I suggested this at the outset and dared to suggest that your expert transmission specialists with all of their dynotuning and expensive diagnosis equipment didn't know what they were doing, all and sundry were so quick to condemn me as ignorant - hmm, I wonder what those 'stone throwing' experts are now thinking???
Dear, oh dear, I guess these forums continue to be full of experts (in their own eyes).

I guess all the transmission exchanges, torque converter diagnosis, blame of poor transmission designs and similar suggestions will all now disappear into a very quiet oblivion!

The thing that continues to amaze me is that everybody continues to fall for the same old trick and that is to blame the most trivial issues on the most complicated diagnosis rather than starting from the most simple and most obvious.

[Homestar]

Now isn't this great news? Something that a simple self diagnosis would have determined! And yet when I suggested this at the outset and dared to suggest that your expert transmission specialists with all of their dynotuning and expensive diagnosis equipment didn't know what they were doing, all and sundry were so quick to condemn me as ignorant - hmm, I wonder what those 'stone throwing' experts are now thinking???
Dear, oh dear, I guess these forums continue to be full of experts (in their own eyes).

I guess all the transmission exchanges, torque converter diagnosis, blame of poor transmission designs and similar suggestions will all now disappear into a very quiet oblivion!

The thing that continues to amaze me is that everybody continues to fall for the same old trick and that is to blame the most trivial issues on the most complicated diagnosis rather than starting from the most simple and most obvious.


You didn't suggest anything of the sort. Your earlier post said that if he went and bought a Hawkeye then it would tell him what was going on - that was the claim that was disputed, nothing else.

As for what I'm thinking now - I can't say here or I would be sent on a small holiday, but your own words speak volumes about how you think you are superior to everyone else here.

Remember at the end of the day we are all just trying to help each other out as best we can - not every answer is right every time. it's not a game of one-up man ship, you just don't seem to be happy unless your proving other people wrong. To me this now seems to be just a bit sad. I think your attitude would be much better suited to a Toyota forum - everyone there is right all the time - they will always tell you that...

At the end of the day, I'm really glad Uteman got his issues sorted and he is once more happy again with his pride and joy.