Wrong jumpstart procedure. Now what?

[RossE]

I have a 2009 Puma 110. On an upcoming camping trip I intend using a battery pack instead of a dual battery system. Most stops will be one night, and I'm only running a fridge overnight and an LED light for a couple of hours. On a couple of occasions when we stay 2 days, I plan to run the engine for a couple of hours to top up the battery. I've had a new, powerful battery installed so don't anticipate problems, however I'm taking a battery pack just in case.

Thought I'd do the prudent thing tonight and test the battery pack. I disconnected the positive lead from the car battery and isolated it from the battery terminal. Then I made sure the battery pack was switched off and connected it. I didn't look for instructions, the procedure seemed obvious: - I connected the positive lead from the battery pack to the positive lead on the car, then the negative lead on the battery pack to the negative lead on the car, which was still attached to the negative terminal on the car battery. (I now understand, lesson learned the hard way, that I should have grounded the negative lead somewhere else on the vehicle, NOT to the negative terminal on the car battery!) Anyway, I tried to start the car, blew a 20A fuse which is in the battery compartment (see photo: this fuse is inside the small black box with the LED on top) and everything went dead. As far as I understand, all that is connected to the 20A fuse is several 12V appliance sockets. I replaced that 20 A fuse.

I reconnected the car battery and everything seems to be working, except the engine won't start! When I turn on the ignition, for a half second or so it sounds like it is going to start, but doesn't. If I try again immediately, the starter motor turns over but without that half second of almost-starting sound. When I leave it for a few minutes and try again, the same thing happens, it sounds like it's about to start but doesn't, then if I try immediately I get only the starter motor turning over.

I've checked all the fuses in the main panel and the secondary one under the driver's seat, they are all OK. Can anyone tell me what problem I might have caused and how to fix it?

Cheers

Ross

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2143/52765356.jpg

[weeds]

Putting the - from the jump start pack onto the - of the car batter should have been ok as the - lead going from the battery is connect the the chassis/body. I know you should earth somewhere other than the battery - but it a little hard finding something decent inside the cab.

Your jump start pack/booster is just that, they probably should be used together.

Sorry cannot help you with the puma electronics, hopefully somebody can point you in the right direction.

[drivesafe]

Hi RossE and sorry for this reply but while I can not help with any idea as to what might be wrong with your vehicle, this is a warning for anyone reading your thread.

In your case Ross, while I can understand what you were trying to achieve, under no circumstances do you ever disconnect the cranking battery and try to start a vehicle.

This is a sure fired way to damaging your alternator.

Even if the cranking battery is dead flat or stuffed, either try recharging the cranking battery while it’s in the vehicle or remove the cranking battery and try to recharge it but do not try to start the motor by using a jump start pack or any other power source with out having the cranking battery in place ad connected.

Ross, I think you need to see an auto electrician.

[Blknight.aus]

without reading your post and looking at the photo I second Drivesafe on you need an auto electrician.


by disconnecting the positive first then putting the jump pack straight into the positive you may have blown out other fuses, made the ECU do a sercurity lock down, fried any number of sensors, the security module or even the ECU itself.

Unless it becomes blindinglly obvious via way of fuse checking or gross electrical connection failure I suspect that even an auto leccy will tell you to take it to the stealers.

[drivesafe]

Unless it becomes blindinglly obvious via way of fuse checking or gross electrical connection failure I suspect that even an auto leccy will tell you to take it to the stealers.

Yep that would be the best option!

[RossE]

Thanks, guys. I'll let you know what the problem turns out to be.

[Tombie]

<snip>
I disconnected the positive lead from the car battery and isolated it from the battery terminal. Then I made sure the battery pack was switched off and connected it. I didn't look for instructions, the procedure seemed obvious: - I connected the positive lead from the battery pack to the positive lead on the car, then the negative lead on the battery pack to the negative lead on the car, which was still attached to the negative terminal on the car battery.
[/URL]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/08/213.jpg

RACQ has a link - [URL]http://www.racq.com.au/motoring/cars/car_advice/car_fact_sheets/jump_starting (http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2143/52765356.jpg)

And the pertinent line in the links contents...


Do not disconnect or change over the discharged battery while the engine is running as damage to the electrical system can occur.

This applies to cranking :cool:

Hope it all turns out to be a cheap fix for you - lesson learnt.

[Utemad]

Forgetting any issues already caused. I doubt the vehicle would have started off the jumper thing alone anyway.
My view has always been to connect jumper leads to put some charge back into the flat battery and then to assist that battery to start the car.
Especially for a diesel.
Alligator clamps don't make that much contact to be drawing bulk current through them regardless of cable size.

[Blknight.aus]

depends on how good your jump pack is.

our durst 250s will start a bushmaster with no batteries

[Utemad]

depends on how good your jump pack is.

our durst 250s will start a bushmaster with no batteries

I don't know what a Durst 250 is but I bet they don't sell them at Repco :-)

[nedflanders]

From what you've said it sounds like you simply disconnected the vehicle battery and replaced it with the jump pack, if the terminals were definitely connected the right way and the live definitely didn't touch any chassis earth then at most all that should have blown is the jump pack fuse. To blow a fuse on the vehicle something else must have happened. Normal jump start procedure is + onto the dead battery and - onto an engine earth or at worst a decent chassis earth, that way the dead battery doesn't suck all the life out of your good battery/jump pack.
My advice would be disconnect the battery completely and leave for an hour so the ECU can hopefully reset itself, while its doing that check every fuse you can find.

Good luck and if its under warranty deny all knowledge Baldrick ;)

[Blknight.aus]

actually they do but you have to specifically ask for them (supercheap will get the low end dursts as will autobahn) and the newer version of the 250 is the bjc-4000, (our work ones have a ciggy socket on them for 12v application) http://www.durst.com.au/pdf/durst_catalogue2007_low-res.pdf

IMHO Durst make the very very best in portable jump packs/battery tanks. But you pay for it.

[austastar]

Hi,
the manual for my 2009 puma states that you have to do 'things' before disconnecting the battery.
I knew this, BUT, well I didn't intend to disconnect it, and it was only for a fraction of a second, BUT, it wouldn't crank over.

Dammn!

Read manual.

Windows up, every thing off.
Loosen earth lead just so you can wriggle it.
Key in, ign on for a few seconds, ign off, key out, quickly disconnect loose earth lead.

Breath deeply.

Re connect earth lead.
Start vehicle.

cheers

[Davo]

Really? That's what you have to do? It amazes me how annoying supposedly "improved" modern cars can be.

[superquag]

If that's the case...- MUST read/study/worship The Owner's Handbookfor seemingly simple tasks... then LR need to treat owners with a bit more respect and print them properly, on decent paper-stock and with a lay-out that encourages discovery of such, gems...

I was involved in Offset printing...and the technical quality of my '95 Classic handbook is an utter disgrace. - Beneath the dignity of any incompetant printer...

[dullbird]

I reconnected the car battery and everything seems to be working, except the engine won't start! When I turn on the ignition, for a half second or so it sounds like it is going to start, but doesn't. If I try again immediately, the starter motor turns over but without that half second of almost-starting sound. When I leave it for a few minutes and try again, the same thing happens, it sounds like it's about to start but doesn't, then if I try immediately I get only the starter motor turning over. Your car is immoblised..
It always starts like its going to kick over and doesnt the more you try the less effort it puts in to try and start its sle fto the point where you may end up with just lights and nothing.

can I ask when you reconnected the battery did you shut all the doors LOCK it then unlock it and then try and start it? or did you just reconnect hop in and try and start?

if my car is left unlocked for a long period of time it will not start it immobilises itself. I have to lock the car while I'm sat in it and unlock it and it will start straight away.

I would reconnect your main battery Lock the car leave it for 30 mins and then go in and try again, locking and unlocking it from the key fob.

[Sketer]

This may be a silly question but is your jump pac a 12v only or is 12v/24v unit....

Sketer

[stevep]

I agree will Dullbird - lock the car & then unlock it & try to start it again.
I have had this happen a couple of times of my D2 - not by disconnecting the battery but just not starting. I only wait until the flashing alarm light changes.

try it and see if it works - nothing to lose.

regards
steve

[Mick-Kelly]

Yep all this electrical stuff sure does make our lives easier. :p

[RossE]

Thanks, dullbird, my LR garage suggested the same thing. I tried locking, leaving for an hour or two, still have the same problem. I've got a call in to a mobile auto-electrician/diagnostic guy who has been away, getting back today. Hope to have him out to look at the problem soon.

Meanwhile, will try disconnecting the battery, leaving it for an hour or so, reconnecting, locking car and leaving for a while and starting again.

On another issue, I'm getting ready to head up the Canning Stock Route in mid-September, away for a month (with three other vehicles, experienced off-roaders.) This immobiliser issue concerns me a bit, wouldn't want a problem with that somewhere as remote as the CSR. Can I disconnect that completely, at least for duration of the trip? I'd better start another thread for this question.

[Blknight.aus]

On the TD5 the immobiliser function can be disabled with a nanocom, T4 Test book and the like (should only be done for a defender, you can get interesting results occasionally if you try it in a disco) The dealer should be able to "lock out" the immobiliser on request .

Working off of the D2 TD5 VS the Deefer td5 theory (which also is applicable to some mercedes stuff) and assuming that basic modularity of their systems applies to the ford.

Part of the immobilisers and anti theft system is built into the ECU in the event that the ecu decides to have a talk to the security system and cant find it it will lock down the ECU and require a reset. A bonus of this is that if you find and fit all the other parts of the security system you can have disco level security in a defender. The big draw back is that once its gone into lockdown unless you have the diagnostics kit to reset it OR have all the other relevant security bits to unlock it your car is stuck. Ford Call this system PATS Passive Anti Theft System, last time I played with it it was up to Version 3 (but I was working on a version one vehicle and doing research) Beating version one simply required buckets of patients the original key and some very basic tooling to connect and disconnect the battery.

Assuming its the same as the current range of transit van DONT let the battery get completely flat as it can cause the ECU to go into anti theft mode (PATS or whatever they're calling it now) which may be what you've had happen here.

assuming your PATS part of the system (passive anti theft) is whats causing the issue heres how you might be able to get around it., no this is not Puma Specific but ford have a habit of recycling their tech into difference vehicles you might get lucky.

How to Reset the Theft Protection in a Ford Expedition | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/how_5844411_reset-theft-protection-ford-expedition.html)

If its one of the newer versions of anti theft thats causing the problem so far everything points to "take it to the dealer"

good luck.

[RossE]

Austastar: yes, a lesson hard learned. Read the manual, read the manual, RTFM! I had my battery replaced at BatteryWorld a couple of weeks back, they certainly didn't follow this procedure. Perhaps lucky that didn't cause a problem then.

Sketer: the jump pack is 12V 22Ah, 1200Amp from Repco.

Blknight.aus: thanks for the info.

[Tombie]

Thanks, dullbird, my LR garage suggested the same thing. I tried locking, leaving for an hour or two, still have the same problem. I've got a call in to a mobile auto-electrician/diagnostic guy who has been away, getting back today. Hope to have him out to look at the problem soon.

Meanwhile, will try disconnecting the battery, leaving it for an hour or so, reconnecting, locking car and leaving for a while and starting again.

On another issue, I'm getting ready to head up the Canning Stock Route in mid-September, away for a month (with three other vehicles, experienced off-roaders.) This immobiliser issue concerns me a bit, wouldn't want a problem with that somewhere as remote as the CSR. Can I disconnect that completely, at least for duration of the trip? I'd better start another thread for this question.

Don't worry about it - its as said above, lock, wait, unlock... :cool:
Dullbirds vehicle did the Cape recently - No worries...
Its just an immobiliser - stop panicking :)

The thing of concern you have to worry about is the big ZAP your ECU may have got when you lifted the terminal and then Connected the jump pack.


??? Re Canning - Have you ever off-roaded seriously (as a driver) before?

[RossE]

Don't worry about it - its as said above, lock, wait, unlock... :cool:
Dullbirds vehicle did the Cape recently - No worries...
Its just an immobiliser - stop panicking :)

The thing of concern you have to worry about is the big ZAP your ECU may have got when you lifted the terminal and then Connected the jump pack.


??? Re Canning - Have you ever off-roaded seriously (as a driver) before?

Re the ECU, I'm keeping fingers crossed until the auto-electrician/diagnotstic guy can here.

As for off-roading, my most recent experience was a 10-day trip in a rented Troopie, out from Esperance, along beach and through bush to the Baxter Cliffs, up to Caiguna, Norsman, then off road to Hyden. Was with the same 3 vehicles that we'll be travelling with on the CSR. They are all very experienced having previously done most of the Oz tough off road tracks including the CSR. I appreciate the CSR with its sand dunes will be a very different experience.

[Tombie]

Re the ECU, I'm keeping fingers crossed until the auto-electrician/diagnotstic guy can here.

As for off-roading, my most recent experience was a 10-day trip in a rented Troopie, out from Esperance, along beach and through bush to the Baxter Cliffs, up to Caiguna, Norsman, then off road to Hyden. Was with the same 3 vehicles that we'll be travelling with on the CSR. They are all very experienced having previously done most of the Oz tough off road tracks including the CSR. I appreciate the CSR with its sand dunes will be a very different experience.

Thanks RossE,

Was just more concerned that maybe you were new to 4wdriving and its a pretty steep learning curve doing the CSR..

Sounds like its just the mechanical side you're a bit 'new' to ;)

Hopefully the diagnostic guy will give you some good news...

[nobbyclrk]

One other point, on some vehicles, don't disconnect the battery before all modules have gone to sleep. You run the risk (esp in later models) of corrumpting the program - permently.

The time for modules to go to sleep varies from a few minutes to over half an hour.

[oldyella 76]

It may think that someone is trying to hotwire it and the imobiliser has shut it down. I had the same problem with my MY12 . Locked with the fob waited 4 mins and then unlocked itwith the fob. Then it started. Got that idea from the pommy defender 2 forum. I sat with mine for 2 days in the shed wondering what was wrong, checking everything, thinking off to the dealers.
Best of luck Lindsay.

[Sketer]

Is this thing running yet?

If so what did you do?

Sketer

[spudboy]

I'm no auto electrician, but it seems to me you did no more (in theory) than just change the battery.

I have had the battery in and out of my PUMA 3 or 4 times, and even replaced the standard battery with an Optima high capacity battery for a couple of weeks when we went away camping with the fridge etc. Swapped back to the OEM battery when we got back and no issues whatsoever. Didn't do anything special with waiting for it to be off half an hour or anything. Stop car. Swap to new battery. Start car.

Maybe something touched when you tried starting the car?

Have you got a 2nd key? If the original fob has been fried somehow, maybe you can start it with the 2nd fob.

If the car is not getting the proper security signal, it will start for about 2 seconds and then die. The fuel pump is shut down, and the 2 seconds running is what was from the pressure in the lines.

Anyway - be interested to hear the solution, but I can't see that swapping out the battery will give you any special issues. Hope it's a cheap fix (or even a warranty fix)!

Cheers
David

[RossE]

Update: not running yet. A highly-recommended mobile auto-elec guy with diagnostic equipment is fully booked and can't get here until Tuesday 11th Sep (and I'm due to head of for the CSR on 15 Sep!). I'm in Perth, posted a message on the WA forum last weekend asking for other auto-elec recommendations but none came up.

I obtained the EAK from the dealer this week and worked through immobiliser override procedure in the manual several times, that hasn't worked. The manual mentions a flashing indicator on the instrument panel which shows the immobiliser is on, but I've never had that since I bought this vehicle 2nd had a few months back. The first step in the immobiliser override procedure (after using the key to unlock the car that was locked with the remote) is to turn the key to the 'II' position until the alarm sounds. Well, that didn't happen either. (And even with the key off, my horn, lights, etc work.)

Will post results after Tuesday's visit from the auto-elec. Meanwhile, it's a bit hard to get anything done with fingers, toes and eyes all crossed!

[Tombie]

Update: not running yet. A highly-recommended mobile auto-elec guy with diagnostic equipment is fully booked and can't get here until Tuesday 11th Sep (and I'm due to head of for the CSR on 15 Sep!). I'm in Perth, posted a message on the WA forum last weekend asking for other auto-elec recommendations but none came up.

I obtained the EAK from the dealer this week and worked through immobiliser override procedure in the manual several times, that hasn't worked. The manual mentions a flashing indicator on the instrument panel which shows the immobiliser is on, but I've never had that since I bought this vehicle 2nd had a few months back. The first step in the immobiliser override procedure (after using the key to unlock the car that was locked with the remote) is to turn the key to the 'II' position until the alarm sounds. Well, that didn't happen either. (And even with the key off, my horn, lights, etc work.)

Will post results after Tuesday's visit from the auto-elec. Meanwhile, it's a bit hard to get anything done with fingers, toes and eyes all crossed!

Ross,

Mate I think you are wasting valuable time.... ;)

Get it on a flat bed, get it to a dealer or LR specialist and get moving...

You're most likely up for a New ECU - It sounds like you zapped it....

If they dont have one, and you cut it to the 11th then how are you going to do your trip on the 15th :o

Pay the tow truck fee, get it in there and get it sorted ASAP :cool:

[Blknight.aus]

Ross,

Mate I think you are wasting valuable time.... ;)

Get it on a flat bed, get it to a dealer or LR specialist and get moving...

You're most likely up for a New ECU - It sounds like you zapped it....

If they dont have one, and you cut it to the 11th then how are you going to do your trip on the 15th :o

Pay the tow truck fee, get it in there and get it sorted ASAP :cool:

seconded, if you're really really lucky (and Im not even sure the puma runs this bit) the bus network module might be roasted and not letting anything talk to anything else so nothing happens.

[RossE]

Tombie, Dave, thanks for the interest. Towing isn't the issue, I'm in the RAC, they gave me a towing chit when they couldn't start the vehicle. However, I talked with my LR specialist (Jordan Rover-Tech) the day this problem occurred. They gave me contact details for the auto-elec guy they would get in to do the job, it's him I'm waiting on. He was away for a few days then booked solid until next Tuesday. He doubt's the ECU is fried, said they are pretty robust, but even if it is, he said a new one is readily available.

Ross

[Blknight.aus]

problem with that is...

what if its not the ECU or something simple.

[RossE]

The auto-elec guy ran his test modules from 2 different computers and identified a problem in the IPC (instrument panel cluster) module. He pulled the instrument panel and found the connector was not tight. When he fixed the connection, the vehicle started! So, off to the Canning Stock Route on Saturday.

Thanks to all for comments and suggestions.

[spudboy]

Well I am pleased to hear that it was a cheap fix, and the changing of the battery didn't stuff up anything.

Not so pleased to hear that a "trivial" system can stop the whole box and dice..... How is that good design?

[Utemad]

Sounds like a hell of a coincidence but I hope it is truly fixed and doesn't reappear on your trip.

[isuzurover]

Well I am pleased to hear that it was a cheap fix, and the changing of the battery didn't stuff up anything.

Not so pleased to hear that a "trivial" system can stop the whole box and dice..... How is that good design?

Indeed!

[uninformed]

no need to worry folks, according to camel_landy, the new LR to replace the defender will have a 1000mm wading depth.....this should solve all future technical problems



:angel:

[superquag]

....Not so pleased to hear that a "trivial" system can stop the whole box and dice..... How is that good design?

It's not.

But it is ammunition for MitsiMazToyo-San. :angel:

[dullbird]

told you it was immoblised :p I'm not surprised a loose connector caused this, the immonblisers I think are way to sensitive on this vehicle IMHO

The fact that your immobliser light wasn't flashing should of been in your first description of the vehicle not starting..that was an important piece in this puzzle.. because when ours played up the light stopped working ;)

[RossE]

told you it was immoblised :p I'm not surprised a loose connector caused this, the immonblisers I think are way to sensitive on this vehicle IMHO

The fact that your immobliser light wasn't flashing should of been in your first description of the vehicle not starting..that was an important piece in this puzzle.. because when ours played up the light stopped working ;)

I don't have a flashing immobiliser light! I asked the auto-elec guy to check this, he said the code in the ECU says this was disabled before it left the factory.

Just back from the Canning Stock Route/Wolfe Creek Crater/Bungle Bungles, no problems at all with the Defender.

[dullbird]

thats interesting because your the first person I have come across that doesnt have one flash..

perhaps they disabled it for a reason;)

[justinc]

I can make them stop flashing...A good idea if you ask me.




:D




JC