Drug testing welfare recipients?

[V8Ian]

Should we, what will be gained? I think nothing, it's a stupid idea. I have no idea what percentage of welfare recipients are addicts or regular drug users, but druggies have a way of obtaining their fix regardless. These people will resort to rolling soft targets, burgaling houses or holding up businesses.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Having worked in Kings Cross for the Dept of Health for a number of years, I can tell you the crims and particularly sex workers were mostly on welfare to be able to prove to the ATO that they had a means of support. The dole paid for their housing department flat, gas and electricity and their assault/rob crime, burglary and prostitution paid for their drugs and spending money!

I don't know about you but if they work in any industry, be it crime or sex work, they don't need the dole.

(How hard have I become?)

[Benz]

I agree Ian

While I don't like the idea of tax payers inadvertently paying for someone's drug habits through welfare, testing welfare recipients and cutting them off if they fail tests won't work in my eyes.

It is a bit of a touchy subject isn't it...

which ever way you look at there will always be grey areas.

[V8Ian]

Career Dole bludgers will always find ways to rort the system. I see your point Diana, but how many more people will be forced into that situation if drug testing is introduced? How many people don't buy drugs, either because they grow their own or accept a single joint as a gift.
Poppy seeds on a bread roll, some cold and flu OTC medications and goodness knows what else will cause a drug test fail.
I think more effective would be to give recipients 6-8 weeks to find work, then they spend eight hours a day under supervision, as if they were working. This would make the dole far less attractive as it is a pittance for the same hours as getting a job.

[Bigbjorn]

Having worked in Kings Cross for the Dept of Health for a number of years, I can tell you the crims and particularly sex workers were mostly on welfare to be able to prove to the ATO that they had a means of support. The dole paid for their housing department flat, gas and electricity and their assault/rob crime, burglary and prostitution paid for their drugs and spending money!

I don't know about you but if they work in any industry, be it crime or sex work, they don't need the dole.

(How hard have I become?)

I worked at DSS as a Fraud Investigator (Field Officer) There were close links between prostitution and the drug trade. Pro's were mostly users and pro's and/or their hoons were dealers. Now if they were receiving unemployment payments and we could show they were selling their attributes then they were not unemployed, but self-employed, so the benefit could be cancelled.

However in the case of pensioners, Sole Parent and Disability, they are still eligible for the payment but their income had to be assessed.

In the nineties a directive came around that drug addicts and alcoholics were not eligible for payments.This did not work as these clients were mostly not solely disabled by their bad habits. They usually were walking medical museums. Hepatitis various, HIV, AIDS, cirrhosis, brain damage, etc. so they still got a payment.

[cartm58]

What issue are we trying to address by the policy

If we are trying to catch drug addicts than sure drug test everyone in the community and charge and prosecute the addicts who refuse to undergo supervised treatment and come off drugs/

If we are trying to stop welfare recipients spending money on drugs wasting the welfare why not extend it to gambling, alcohol and cigarettes as well and if they can't manage their money stop giving them money and only issue vouchers which can't be exchanged for anything except the goods stated.

It is another right wing christian politician dream policy, they did this in the USA in Florida and they spent more on the cost of testing than they did in reducing welfare fraud or removing drug recipients from welfare and the number of drug welfare recipients was less than 1%.

If they cannot stop drug traffic within our prisons with a controlled population of inmates, restricted contact with outside population who can all be checked prior to admission to prison and controlled and checked workforce l don't see how they are going to make this policy work

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Drugs cost a lot more than the dole pays and if they can afford to drug, they are likely suplimenting their income and not entitled to the dole or at least all of their dole.

I'm not an advocate of enforced drug rehab programmes because thay don't work if the user doesn't have the motivation to attempt stopping.

The whole question is too big and there are so many people invested in it what ever programme they institute, you can be sure there will be some who profit from it financially and the bottom of the chain end user will be still out selling themselves or your stuff!

[Sleepy]

If I didn't know better Ian I would say you are trolling.;)

This is obviously a controversial proposal created by some spin doctor to divert our attention. (Or as they say "****ing in the wind")

You want to see the process I have to go through to drug test my 17 staff. It aint simple and to find a positive (sorry, Non-negative) result then requires another huge protocol.

Put aside the morality or reasonableness of drug testing dole recipients, the logistics would be a nightmare and end up costing us more than it was worth.

I would say the spin doctors are busy trying to stop us worrying about the bad press created by:

rejigged carbon tax (quietly announced today),
boat people continuing to make ALP govt. look bad
ALP poor result in NT election
Slipper affair (mmm that's gone quiet)
Craig Thompson affair (mmm that's quiet too)

It'll never happen - but may fill up the first few pages of the Herald Sun or Sydney Telegraph while we have useless polls and argue amongst ourselves. It is also good fodder for Today Tonight and ACA.


Next they'll pick on Teachers (Shift working Schools is always a good one) and Nurses (They are overpaid - aren't they?)


Sorry, I'm a cynic but I see straight through this type of crap.

[101RRS]

Sleepy this was a Qld LNP member that raised this not the Labor party.

[V8Ian]

If I didn't know better Ian I would say you are trolling.;)

This is obviously a controversial proposal created by some spin doctor to divert our attention. (Or as they say "****ing in the wind")

You want to see the process I have to go through to drug test my 17 staff. It aint simple and to find a positive (sorry, Non-negative) result then requires another huge protocol.

Put aside the morality or reasonableness of drug testing dole recipients, the logistics would be a nightmare and end up costing us more than it was worth.


I would say the spin doctors are busy trying to stop us worrying about the bad press created by:

rejigged carbon tax (quietly announced today),
boat people continuing to make ALP govt. look bad
ALP poor result in NT election
Slipper affair (mmm that's gone quiet)
Craig Thompson affair (mmm that's quiet too)
It'll never happen - but may fill up the first few pages of the Herald Sun or Sydney Telegraph while we have useless polls and argue amongst ourselves. It is also good fodder for Today Tonight and ACA.


Next they'll pick on Teachers (Shift working Schools is always a good one) and Nurses (They are overpaid - aren't they?)


Sorry, I'm a cynic but I see straight through this type of crap.
No Paul, I'm not deliberately trolling. I heard the proposal on TV this evening and thought what a dumb idea. I think you've hit the nail on the head with your second sentence. Dole bludgers* do get my back up though.
*Not all welfare recipients are dole bludgers.

[Fluids]

So what ... Drug test welfare recipients every 2 weeks on pay day ?

:angel:

Sent from my iPad using Braille

[V8Ian]

Don't they get their cheque in the mail? That would mean sending them a letter to front for the test, giving them the heads up to stay clean til the test is done.

[Bigbjorn]

Don't they get their cheque in the mail? That would mean sending them a letter to front for the test, giving them the heads up to stay clean til the test is done.

Cheques stopped in all but a very few cases in 1989. Payments have been made direct to bank accounts ever since. Nowadays even the "counter cheque" urgent payment is a one use only smart card. Money is sent to a bank a/c and a smart card issued to allow that amount to be taken out.

Clients used to come in and declare they never got their cheque which was a euphemism for "I got it, I spent it, it wasn't enough, and I want another one". Much staff time was wasted on this and on investigating the "missing" cheques.

[Bigbjorn]

Drugs cost a lot more than the dole pays and if they can afford to drug, they are likely suplimenting their income and not entitled to the dole or at least all of their dole.



Yes indeed, by dealing drugs, prostitution, armed robbery, mugging, house breaking, shop lifting, and other forms of petty crime. Rarely by the sweat of their brow. Dss (centrelink) has to prove the income in case of appeals against reduction or cancellation of benefit. You can't reduce or cancel a payment just because you think or know without proof that the client is not kosher.

[Sleepy]

Sleepy this was a Qld LNP member that raised this not the Labor party.

Ok, but anyone can run with it ;)

Yes Ian , dole bludgers smoking bongs is probably not a good thing but don't we have more important issues ?

Perhaps we should ban them from Fast food and alcohol too not to mention cigarettes. My daughter ( check out chick ) saw a lady spend most of her pension on cat food. Talking to her she said she had dozens of stray cats to feed.
Quite sad really but she was happy ....my point is, it's her business. We shouldn't be ruling her life.

[Fluids]

Don't they get their cheque in the mail? That would mean sending them a letter to front for the test, giving them the heads up to stay clean til the test is done.

Ian ... Like Brian said, electronic funds transfer.

So we put drug testing units on all ATMs and EFTPOS machines ?

Blow, spit, urinate before withdrawal ? :p

Ooops ;)


:wasntme:

Sent from my iPad using Braille

[V8Ian]

So how often do recipient have to go to Soc Sec in person? Seems random tests are an impossibity.

[LandyAndy]

Do we include cigarette smokers in this???
Its a drug they are spending tax payers money on ;););)
Andrew

[V8Ian]

Soft drink.
Cake/Deserts and all other non essential foods.
Deodourant/Aftershave/Perfume.

As someone said earlier, it's the recipients' money to decide how to spend it. I believe 95% do so responsibly.

[THE BOOGER]

Not drug testing but we allow the govt to tell indigenous people what they can spend their dole on so why not all welfare recipients, obviously target the irresponsible ones as most are ok. Remember its not their money its tax payers money given to help them get by it is not supposed to be a way of life:(

[Landy Smurf]

i think it is a good idea.if they dont do it then they have nothing to hide so it shouldnt worry them plus they are getting money. one thin i think that is abit overlooked is the children involved, but i suppose this could go either way.i get really annoyed espically when i was working ath the servo and seeing people that were most likely on the dole and their kids poorly dressed and the mum comes in and buys smokes.the dole should be to people who deserve it and dont take it for granted and blow it.i think that the money should be given out in the form as vouchers(ie, food, fuel) yes there will be ocassions where they will have to handle money and do direct money transactions such as rent but i think centrelink should sort that out on their behalf(yes i know alot of mesing around) people take drugs, sell them lots of people will say no matter what the governmnet does that people will still do it . but if it decreasers the amount of people doing this then that is a plus. it is possible to have a drug free society

[Bigbjorn]

So how often do recipient have to go to Soc Sec in person? Seems random tests are an impossibity.

Pensioners, almost never.

Newstart Allowees, commonly once per fortnight to lodge their "Application for Payment". Some have extended lodgement periods now, up to 6 weeks. A few are still permitted to lodge by mail from remote areas.

Centrelink has embraced a programme of keeping people out of the offices except by appointment. Self service by telephone or computer has become the preferred mode. Pensioners report income by 'phone or computer. Initial claims for payment are done by 'phone and an appointment made for an in-office interview. If you go into an office to lodge a new claim the "greeter" will direct you to a telephone and computer. This raises hackles as often the client has come into the office to yell at someone after spending up to two fruitless hours on hold with a teleservice centre.

Centrelink does not place people in employment. It provides income support and monitors allowees efforts to find work. The Job Service Providers (used to be the CES before The Runt dismantled it) are supposed to do this. Job Service Providers are private sector and are paid fees for service. Their management encourages the consultants to milk this for all the $$$$ they can find.

There is a major stumbling block in placing unskilled persons in work. If the only employment they are likely to get is minimum wage or low paid unskilled work then the dole is not much less than their nett after paying income tax, cost of travel to & from work, suitable clothing, perhaps social club and union fees and other costs of being in the workforce. A couple of dollars an hour is considered by many insufficient incentive to spend 38 hours a week in an unpleasant & poorly paid job.

[V8Ian]

i think it is a good idea.if they dont do it then they have nothing to hide so it shouldnt worry them plus they are getting money. one thin i think that is abit overlooked is the children involved, but i suppose this could go either way.i get really annoyed espically when i was working ath the servo and seeing people that were most likely on the dole and their kids poorly dressed and the mum comes in and buys smokes.the dole should be to people who deserve it and dont take it for granted and blow it.i think that the money should be given out in the form as vouchers(ie, food, fuel) yes there will be ocassions where they will have to handle money and do direct money transactions such as rent but i think centrelink should sort that out on their behalf(yes i know alot of mesing around) people take drugs, sell them lots of people will say no matter what the governmnet does that people will still do it . but if it decreasers the amount of people doing this then that is a plus. it is possible to have a drug free society
So do you have a workable plan to impliment testing?

[V8Ian]

Brian, Mrs V8 worked for Soc Sec in the '70s. She spent a busy but predictable time in DFRB before moving to the front counter in Ann-Edward Sts, what a culture shock that was. :eek: How the other half live!

[Bigbjorn]

Brian, Mrs V8 worked for Soc Sec in the '70s. She spent a busy but predictable time in DFRB before moving to the front counter in Ann-Edward Sts, what a culture shock that was. :eek: How the other half live!

A colleague started in 1968 as a 17 y.o straight out of high school. He told me the only Brisbane office was in the Prudential Building and had a reception counter about 10' long. Clients rarely ever came into the office and were not popular if they did. Unemployment being handled by the CES. DSS did the paying after CES approved. Pensions were handled at post offices who still paid a lot of pensions in cash fortnightly. (remember large official post offices?). There was another office in Townsville. With 2-3% unemployment the numbers were not great and applicants were quickly placed into a job. Six weeks was considered long term unemployed and woe betide any CES Office Manager who had more than a handful on the books.

The rapid increase in unemployment to 7% following the first Arab oil shock caused a major upheaval. The Depts. did not have the staff, facilities, or systems to cope. They had to play catch up for some years.

In my time there the regional offices were never generously staffed, mostly having barely enough to cope with the day to day necessary work without the time to enquire closely into the clients' bona fides. Daily priority was to get people paid correctly and on time. This kept them off the 'phones and out of the office. Staffing levels are even tighter now, I am told.

[rick130]

Hmm, I'm all for at as it would mean 2/3rds of taxpayers would be tested too, seeing as how entrenched middle class welfare has become in this country.......





:twisted:

[Landy Smurf]

So do you have a workable plan to impliment testing?

well not really off the top of my head. somewhere near the centrelink or drs or hospital would need setting up. yes it would cost alot of money to do the testings and to set it up but it is not just about taxpayers money going to people so they can spend it on drugs it is also about getting some people back to work and getting them off the drugs yes for most they would continue to do drugs but it will reduce the drug activity amongst these people. you can look at this in a negative way or positive i choose positive.

[Sue]

I agree with it.. and why not? Many employers write mandatory drug testing into contracts now. I have to have a blood test every few months at work which is tested for drugs (as well as for other work related safety issues), it's a condition of my employment. So why not make it a condition of collecting the dole?.

Don't get me wrong, it would be insane to think that they could feasibly test every person on welfare (without sending the system bankrupt) but if they targeted the long term dole collectors and if they were found to be positive to drugs in their system then their payments could be cut or altered to a voucher system.

[Bigbjorn]

I fail to see the point in drug testing welfare recipients. Newstart Allowees are only one of the welfare groups. Are you going to test Sickness Allowees, Special Beneficiaries, Sole Parent Pensioners, Age Pensioners, Widow Pensioners, Disability Pensioners, Blind Pensioners, Family Allowees. Can't have them wasting their payments on drugs. What about wasting their payments on tobacco products, alcohol, gambling, plasma TV's. While we are at it, get stuck into the Vets Affairs Pensioners too. TPI's are well paid and can afford drugs and the others. Stop that waste also. Next step, Public Service Superannuants. What about the homeless. Many of them are homeless so they don't waste money on rent in order to spend it on cigarettes, grog, gambling, drugs, the necessities of life.

What do you do if they test positive? Cancel their payments? The legislation doesn't allow this and would need massive changes to do so. No worries, mate. Don't starve, steal.

This proposal is a whole lot of crap. Even if you give food coupons the benos sell them to get their cigarettes etc.

[SambOz]

For a first post, ... it seems we have to have drug tests to work, but don't need them if we don't.

Funny old world at times..:D:D

Don't get here a lot, but signed on today and this thread was near the top of recent posts, thanks for a good forum folks.

[bushrover]

Why not test welfare recipients? I have to be tested or I am not allowed to pay my taxes so welfare recipients can buy their smokes and booze, let alone drugs. As far as paying for the testing goes, the first couple of hundred each week denied the dole would cover the cost. I do exclude all old age pensioners from this comment, I won't start on how people who have contributed to this country all of their life are treated to the benefit of the bludgers.

[Sleepy]

SO....

We test them.

They test positive.

We stop their dole.

And.........


They:

(a) starve
(b) resent the society we live in
(c) resort to crime
(d) see the error of their ways, go to church, take up self flagellation, and immediately enrol in an anti drug course (paid for by the government )
(e) contest the matter in court (at our expense)
(f) all of the above
(g) all of the above except (d)

[ade]

I get drug tested regulary in my job, and my taxes pay for their dole so why shouldnt they be drug tested. positive test no dole money, they aint gonna get a job while lounging around doped up to the eyeballs

[Landy Smurf]

if they are regular drug users then even if they got tested every 3 months or 6 months wpuld probably be enough and if they were to do the drug testing without much notcie as they do at work then they would probably get caught. i am sure they have thought of a process for it

[Landy Smurf]

also just think if they were to cut the money on the dole bludgers(im not saying all people on the dole are bludgers) then they could increase the pension

[Landy Smurf]

SO....

We test them.

They test positive.

We stop their dole.

And.........


They:

(a) starve
(b) resent the society we live in
(c) resort to crime
(d) see the error of their ways, go to church, take up self flagellation, and immediately enrol in an anti drug course (paid for by the government )
(e) contest the matter in court (at our expense)
(f) all of the above
(g) all of the above except (d)

you do make a good point.i dont know much about how the dole works, but instead of money transactions they could be given with resources such as food clothes and rent(the things they are suppose to spend the money on) yes this to would be costly an dthey might just sell or trade the things for drugs and end up broke and starving but well thats there problem then you cant completely spoon feed them

[Debacle]

The main question is.

Is everyone prepared to pay the extra taxes involved to test these people for drugs so that we can save paying extra taxes.

Are you willing to cut off your nose to spite your face ??

[EchiDna]

there are alternatives... make em go for a blood test every 2 weeks but only test 1 in 100 samples collected...

I hate needles, nobody can honestly say they like them, so the threat alone might get a proportion of them lookin for a job ;-)

[Fluids]

Honestly ... are you all prepared to fund another department of governmet beaurocracy out of your income & taxes to have a drug testing for welfare recipients program put into being ?????

Lets not give them another opportunity to establish a self serving job creation scheme ... cause if it gets up, it's not going away, it'll be milked for all it's worth, and will cost way more than just handing the cash over to the recipients!

The food stamps / accomodation vouchers / some means of support NOT requiring hard cash dollars handed over, requiring the recipient to work for some kind of additional funding to support whatever habit is they might / might not have (smokes, drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc), but at least provide some assistance for a basic dwelling & foods requirement ... but the system needs to change to allow these people to earn additional money without deducting their benefit as is currently done ... that is a no incentive to work because any extra you earn, they take away.

Either way, it's not an easy one to do fairly and justly, as all the recipients do not have the same circumstances.

[Landy Smurf]

some of them use needles themselves

[seano87]

Double posted for some reason. Mods delete please.

[Bigbjorn]

I assume when everyone writes about "dole bludgers" they mean people who have received unemployment payments, Newstart Allowance, for a long time and don't appear to be looking for work.

Think of the numbers of unemployed as like the council pool on a hot day. You have numbers in the pool, some getting out and some getting in. Most Newstart Allowees are decent genuine job seekers in need of assistance whilst they look for work. Over 90% are in this category. Of the balance, many are people whom it is most unlikely will ever find another job. Mature age unskilled, hell, nearly all mature aged, ex-convicts, persons carrying injuries or handicaps but not sufficient to get a Disability Pension, persons with a compensation history, aboriginals, illiterates, dull persons who were unable to achieve an education, the obese or unattractive, non-English speakers, and a few other categories that escape me for the moment. What do you want to do with these? Cancel their payments and leave them to starve or steal? Most US states have time limits on unemployment payments. Last year Michigan was in financial trouble and had a slash and burn budget (Qlders who voted for the LNP take note). The period of unemployment payments was reduced from 24 weeks to 20 weeks. This not only causes poverty and hardship but encourages crime.

The few left are the real "dole bludgers" who have decided on early retirement on Newstart. Unless they have some savings or assets this is life in poverty. A single Newstart Allowee receives $495 per fortnight and a maximum of $120 p.f rent assistance if they pay rent of $267 p.f. or more. Flats around here start at around $720 p.f. which is more than the payments. Anybody I saw on the rock'n roll for a few years had eroded any savings they had to virtually nil unless they started with a large amount.

"Dole bludgers" could be dealt with if the Dept. had specialised staff, a budget, and legislation with teeth. It is probably cheaper to pay them.

[1976_michelle]

I think dole payments could be set up to pay direct in to rent requirements, utilities, and grocery vouchers. Not all of it, but proportion perhaps, leaving less available for misuse. Perhaps if they fail the test the stricter regime could be applied for them but if they pass then they're left alone?
Slightly aside but, What I'd like to know is why we think we want to import so many more people to fill jobs when peope here can't/wont find work? Either jobs are there and our people should be in them, or jobs are not there therefore why bring more people in to the country to take jobs?
A friend at work has a partner who could potentially relocate to the US and work as the company that employs him has a division over there. The problem is not the partner, but my friend; she is not allowed take work over there, they have some law about internationals coming in and taking jobs from their locals.

[Tote]

Having spent the last week tripping over homeless people, looking at queues around the block for free breakfasts provided by the church and avoiding hookers I think that we should spend the drug testing money on diversion programmes to keep kids from low socio economic environments in school and try and fix the future generation.
I've been in the US this week and you don't have to look far to see the failure of their " Tough on drugs" policies

Regards

Tote

[Bigbjorn]

I think dole payments could be set up to pay direct in to rent requirements, utilities, and grocery vouchers. Not all of it, but proportion perhaps, leaving less available for misuse. Perhaps if they fail the test the stricter regime could be applied for them but if they pass then they're left alone?
Slightly aside but, What I'd like to know is why we think we want to import so many more people to fill jobs when peope here can't/wont find work? Either jobs are there and our people should be in them, or jobs are not there therefore why bring more people in to the country to take jobs?
A friend at work has a partner who could potentially relocate to the US and work as the company that employs him has a division over there. The problem is not the partner, but my friend; she is not allowed take work over there, they have some law about internationals coming in and taking jobs from their locals.

Centrelink has a system called Centrepay which can be used to make direct rent payments. The legislation had to be changed to allow this. Previously only the Commonwealth could make deductions for Commonwealth debt. Small deductions can now be compulsorily taken for Child Support. Pension and benefit payments were inviolable by force of law. Example- if your bank a/c was overdrawn the bank could not take your pension/benefit payment. You could go to the bank and withdraw the whole amount. If you did not take the whole amount then the balance was available to the bank. Food stamps are a mixed success in the USA. The recipients sell them to buy their priorities, tobacco, booze, drugs. The Sallies used to give out Coles/Woolies coupons to people in hardship. They could not buy many things like tobacco, disposable nappies, soft drinks, etc. only essentials.

[bob10]

Spare a thought for the people in the Great Depression years, no dole, no work, carry your swag on the wallaby to try to find work. Also not the drug problem of today. It would be interesting to discover if it was unemployment today that causes the drug problem, or the drug problem that causes the unemployable. Bob