More Diggers dead

[olbod]

Three more Diggers have been killed by rogue afgan collegues.
They should just nuke the whole lot of the ASSHOLES.

Bet the yanks are sorry now that they helped the afgans to oppose the Russian occupation !!!

RIP.

Robert

[d3syd]

Everyone should just get the hell out of there and leave them to sort out their own problems. They want us out anyway, and by staying we are simply giving them excuses and justification to launch more terrorist attacks.

Of course there are a couple of elephants in the room that rather complicates things: 1. The Middle East has the oil, the West needs it, and 2. the West's continued unconditional support of the State of Isreal despite what they are doing to the Palestinians.

Still I don't think invading in Afghanistan was a good idea.

[101RRS]

Unfortunately in addition to those three deaths there were a further two this morning in a helo crash.

Five in 24 hours - not good.

Lest we Forget

[Blknight.aus]

as I said waaay back at the begining of the thing..

turn the place into radioactive glass ,wait out the half life and turn it into a carpark.

[PAT303]

Sorry if I offend anyone but pull out of the ****hole and leave the poor excuse's for human beings to themselves. Pat

[d3syd]

I guarantee that within 6 months, probably less, after the allies pull out of Afgahanistan the Taliban will take over and the country will simply revert back to the way it was prior to the invasion.

Around 3000 coalition troops loss, billions of $ spent, thousands of civilian casualties, and a lot more ****ed off extremists.....

What is the point of the whole exercise :confused:

They didn't need to invade the country to go after Bin Ladin and weaken al-Qaeda. It would be more sensible to surgically take out key members of terrorist organisations using drones and special ops. Wholesale invation just acts as an indirect recruitment drive for the terrorist groups.

[newhue]

Everyone should just get the hell out of there and leave them to sort out their own problems. They want us out anyway, and by staying we are simply giving them excuses and justification to launch more terrorist attacks.

Of course there are a couple of elephants in the room that rather complicates things: 1. The Middle East has the oil, the West needs it, and 2. the West's continued unconditional support of the State of Isreal despite what they are doing to the Palestinians.

Still I don't think invading in Afghanistan was a good idea.

I thought it was because the west is addicted to heroin; we bail on Afghanistan and the west gets flooded. With our forces there we slow down activities to some extent. Heroin is how the taliban funs it's activities. If we can get the west off heroine than the troops can come home and the taliban runs out of money.

my condolences to the troops and their families, life is not fair.

[akelly]

Perhaps instead of hate and loathing we could just take a minute to say thanks to these brave young men. They deserve it.

It's hate that gets us here, let's not try and hate our way out of it.

Cheers,

Adam

[Blknight.aus]

Just had a thought we should apply the swordfish principle to it..

every time one of their "soldiers" thats been bought up and trained by our (or friendly) forces kills one of ours (or friendlies) we get to nuke either the offenders home province or some other randomly selected one.

But I really really really properly think that the world desperately needs to see a nice modern post apocolyptic glass carpark sculpture.

[Ralph1Malph]

HE WAS A MATE

He was a mate, a real good mate 'e was,
A friendly sort of feller, liked a joke;
And if it had to happen, it's a shame
It had to happen to such a decent bloke.

But - ah, fair dinkum, don't it make you wonder
What God in Heaven's thinkin' about up there;
The way He chooses who to sacrifice
To me somehow it doesn't quite seem fair.

You'd think He'd want to take a bloke like me
Who'd be no loss to no-one here on Earth;
But no, He always seems to pick the best
Whose life amounts to ten times what mine's worth.

But I suppose He'd say it's not His fault,
It's us and how we treat our fellow man;
And if too many good blokes' lives are lost
We can't just blame it all on His great plan.

He slung us here on Earth and said "Righto,
Get on with it you blokes, the world is yours";
But all we've done is fight among ourselves
And destroy each other with our endless wars.

Now, there's a sort of aching here inside,
I can't quite put my finger on what's wrong;
But a soldier can't afford to feel this way,
He's got to grit his teeth and carry on.

So how's a bloke supposed to deal with this?
I know they trained me well, I can't complain;
But this is somethin' you don't learn about
When they teach you how to play the soldier's game.

They teach you how to shoot and how to kill,
You even learn which enemy to hate;
But nowhere in their training do you learn
How to live with the loss of a real good mate.

Lachlan Irvine


Lachlan Irvine is a Vietnam Veteran.
I borrowed this poem from his home page.
I don't think he will mind.

Comrades at Arms forever. Mates Always
RIP guys.

Ralph
Soldier

[slug_burner]

We will remember them.

[easo]

The part that saddens me the most is now the family's will have to deal with the Australian born and bread extremest posting letters to them about how great it is their sons died for alha. As well as the media knocking on doors to get their story's.

Easo

[akelly]

The part that saddens me the most is now the family's will have to deal with the Australian born and bread extremest posting letters to them about how great it is their sons died for alha. As well as the media knocking on doors to get their story's.

Easo

Yep. I'm not sure which would be worse. At least you can chuck the letter in the bin, the trash media will be trawling facebook and hacking emails like crazy right now.

[digger]

I believe that there should be people standing shoulder to shoulder along the route that their coffins will take from the airport on their arrival back in Australia.. Not just for them but also for their familes and friends...

Decorate everything with the Australian flag , gets schoolkids out and let them know what has happened so they too realise what the cost is..

Lets honour the 38 now dead properly, there is too much 1/2 arsed about the way its done now... If a pollie gets a state funeral and crowds along the street then surely these who risk and paid so much more deserve that and more.


Lest We Forget
[
dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
roughly translated I believe this means:
" It is right and proper to die for one's country "

[akelly]

There is nothing 'half arsed' about the way fallen servicemen and women are treated. They are honoured as warriors and sent off in a way that meets the service need for ceremony and also the families requests. Sometimes the family wants no military presence at the funeral - that is their perogative.

Your quote means 'it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country'. It's from a very old poem (23BC ish) but gained fame in its use in an anti-war poem from WW1.

It's neither sweet nor fitting to die in battle. IMO.

Cheers,

Adam

[Celtoid]

There is nothing 'half arsed' about the way fallen servicemen and women are treated. They are honoured as warriors and sent off in a way that meets the service need for ceremony and also the families requests. Sometimes the family wants no military presence at the funeral - that is their perogative.

Your quote means 'it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country'. It's from a very old poem (23BC ish) but gained fame in its use in an anti-war poem from WW1.

It's neither sweet nor fitting to die in battle. IMO.

Cheers,

Adam

Wilfred Owen - Dulce et Decorum Est

[digger]

The half arsed comment doesn't refer to the way the military treat our fallen, but rather to the way that people seem to treat them.. an article in the news... there should be a huge public turnout for each and every one, even if it is just "welcoming them home".

The spirit of the saying is correct and I believe appropriate, your translation is correct (sorry I should have checked it first) and I couldnt find the source but had the saying on a memorium paper I had.

[redrovertdi]

The afghan that shot our people got away, he will probably turn up in Australia via Indonesia as a refugee and end up with more money and rights than us tax payers and we will provide an interpreter so he doesnt have to speak our language....

[Basil135]

The half arsed comment doesn't refer to the way the military treat our fallen, but rather to the way that people seem to treat them.. an article in the news... there should be a huge public turnout for each and every one, even if it is just "welcoming them home".



Quite right.

If I recall correctly, there is a town on the outskirts of an airbase in England, and everytime one of their soldiers comes home after being KIA, the whole town turns out as a sign of respect.

Considering how many they have lost, the townsfolk still come out & line the streets. THAT is respect.


To our Aussie servicemen, thanks, and may they rest in peace.

[86mud]

Yeah...very sad. One of the young soilders was Sapper from 2CER here in Brisbane....where I serve as a choco (reservist).

The politicians need to move quickly to end this and get our troops out of there. Not sure what the long term solution is but at the moment...it's not our fight.

I give my money to redrovertdi's comment....the offender will probably end up as a cab driver in Brisbane.....

[F4Phantom]

Yeah...very sad. One of the young soilders was Sapper from 2CER here in Brisbane....where I serve as a choco (reservist).

The politicians need to move quickly to end this and get our troops out of there. Not sure what the long term solution is but at the moment...it's not our fight.

I give my money to redrovertdi's comment....the offender will probably end up as a cab driver in Brisbane.....



As soon as we get out of there the place will revert back to exactly how we left it, I value an Australian citizen more than I care about that country, the 400 odd million we have given them in cash will not be well spent, we could do it with for our own.

[olbod]

I thought it was because the west is addicted to heroin; we bail on Afghanistan and the west gets flooded. With our forces there we slow down activities to some extent. Heroin is how the taliban funs it's activities. If we can get the west off heroine than the troops can come home and the taliban runs out of money.

my condolences to the troops and their families, life is not fair.


I have always thought that a drop of agent orange here and there would give them reason to ponder.
I would start laying waste to the country all around the paki border areas and then spread out slowly untill the old farmer gets the message and starts to plant tatoes.

I am supprised that monsanto hasn't come up with a solution to the problem by steriliseing the lot of the Buggers.

Having said that, I believe that the Palistinians should have their own state independant of Isreal.

Robert.

[newhue]

it's such a tuff call and I don't think anyone knows what to do really. Those crazy vietcong that killed our boys back then, must have been the curse of the earth in the 60's. Now people flock to the country and enjoy the hospitality and people. But I understand and respect for some they cant do that.

It's easy to feel the middle east should be made a proper wast land when a "stan" comrade turns on his helpers. But somehow someway into future it will settle. The grab for land masked behind religion and generational hatred takes a long time for the young blood to understand, accept, and forgive.

Four corners had a disturbing show a few weeks back. The taliban was offering lots of money upfront for local farmers to grow more herion. However the government has changed policy on growing the crop and with support of the west were destroying crops. The tragedy with it was the taliban would then return and take children, or dad, as short term security until the money was returned. If the money was not repaid within two months a dead body would be left at the front door.

As with the "stans"; in the Vietnam struggle the local people would have been grieving just as much as we do for our lost. As I'm sure the middle east people do as well. But there is bad that needs to be overcome for the free world to survive.
Like I said I don't know if anyone knows what to do but keep going.

I do think however, if the west started to line streets when the fallen have come home, people would take it much more seriously, and be more human and caring for it. That is a very good idea I think.
When I was a kid I would wonder why people would stand at war memorials when it wasn't ANZAC day. I understand now, I am one of them.

[GlennWA]

Sad news for Australia without a doubt; but also spare a thought for our coalition partners as well. Their conditions of service, acceptance of risk in operations, and numbers of casualties, I am afraid to say, dwarf the Australian effort and the insular Australian Media never mention a word of their sacrifice.

As much as we may like to believe otherwise, Australia as a society, does little to support our troops when compared to our partners - particularly America from my experience. We as a nation would be shocked at what our coalition soldiers are experiencing.

Please, put politics and blame aside and spare a thought for our coalition partners too!

[d3syd]

Poor guys, really feel for their families.:( RIP.

Fallen Diggers named (http://www.smh.com.au/national/fallen-diggers-named-20120901-256yp.html)

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/helicopter-crash-diggers-named-20120831-2545u.html

[Landy Smurf]

i must say i have not given the war in Afghanistan much thought until now when i was looking at the 38 soldiers killed and then i recognized one of them by their last name and did some research and it turned out to be one of my teachers son. for those on fb there is a few groups to help support them this is one that i joined and i hope some of you will too.
'Legs For Legends' Nullarbor MTB Ride | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegsForLegendsNullarborMTBRide)
i am currently studying abit about WW and Vietnam war and i think really this war is a repeat in a way why are we there because of USA, why have we not yet withdrawn because of the USA. war is a very confusing thing, it is a shame that these things have to occur and that brave men and women have to sacrifice their lives for

[akelly]

i must say i have not given the war in Afghanistan much thought until now when i was looking at the 38 soldiers killed and then i recognized one of them by their last name and did some research and it turned out to be one of my teachers son. for those on fb there is a few groups to help support them this is one that i joined and i hope some of you will too.
'Legs For Legends' Nullarbor MTB Ride | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/LegsForLegendsNullarborMTBRide)
i am currently studying abit about WW and Vietnam war and i think really this war is a repeat in a way why are we there because of USA, why have we not yet withdrawn because of the USA. war is a very confusing thing, it is a shame that these things have to occur and that brave men and women have to sacrifice their lives for


I can't speak for everyone, but I know that most who have served there would say we're there because we can actually make a difference. The place is a **** sandwich, but if someone doesn't start eating it's not going to go away!

Having said that, it's hard to say what long term effects our efforts will produce - and that's what makes the sacrifices so hard to take, for me anyway.

Cheers,

Adam

[ugu80]

Thank you to all our multicultural citizens of Arabic ethnic appearance who showed such respect during the minute of silence called at last nights Canterbury-Bankstown match at ANZ stadium. You are not middle easterners, you are not muslims, you are just filth.

[Landy Smurf]

i missed that one what happened

[ugu80]

The minute of silence was a minute of disinterested and, in the otherwise silent stadium, audible talking and not infrequent yahoo yell from the Bulldog supporters bay. Most were utterly disgusted, including many Arabic gentlemen near us who clearly looked embarrassed and ashamed.

[Landy Smurf]

disgraceful.

[akelly]

Light the way home | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/events/490988727579980/)

It helps to focus on the positive. It's too easy to get drawn into a hate-fest. That, in a way, is a victory for the enemy. They want us to reject what are really our greatest strengths - solidarity and compassion - in favour of hatred. Their propaganda teams will be trawling the 'net for examples of Aussies calling for retribution etc. These are then copied, taken out of context, and used to inculcate hatred towards the west in impressionable muslim kids.

If you want to honour the sacrifice these blokes have made, do something small, do something quiet and do something that doesn't involve hate. Next time you see a bloke in uniform shake his hand and say 'thanks'. Buy a legacy badge this week and when you do, think of the families and kids of fallen soldiers that will get a chance to forget about the pain for a little while.

Home - Legacy (http://www.legacy.com.au/)

YMMV :)

[easo]

If you want to honour the sacrifice these blokes have made, do something small, do something quiet and do something that doesn't involve hate. Next time you see a bloke in uniform shake his hand and say 'thanks'. Buy a legacy badge this week and when you do, think of the families and kids of fallen soldiers that will get a chance to forget about the pain for a little while.


Agreed

Honour Roll, http://www.parramattarsl.com.au/rsl9/Honour%20Roll%20Afghanistan.htm

[Vanguard]

Three more Diggers have been killed by rogue afgan collegues.
They should just nuke the whole lot of the ASSHOLES.

Bet the yanks are sorry now that they helped the afgans to oppose the Russian occupation !!!

RIP.

Robert

It is a sad affair and it is easy for us to be provoked, but remember, we are in their country and most Afghans are happy to be rid of the Taliban who were an oppressive and harsh Government. Our Government has chosen to go to Afghanistan, and in that choice we are there to help the common people remove the oppressive power of the Taliban, originally for our security, and now for theirs. The Afghans never invited us, so they cannot be blamed for what has happened to us since we started our occupation. The enemy can be blamed; the Taliban and anyone who supports them.

If you go into this sort of war, you have to be committed to win, and as an invader/occupier it is easy to lose sight of your objective and say "let's get out" when it gets too hard. The enemy knows this. They know that the West is soft and that our political cycle is only 3-4 years long. We have rules of engagement, treaties and laws to govern how we conduct ourselves on the field, all to be exploited.

I believe we have completely lost our ability to win a war in the modern world, where the enemy is not conventional. The technology and ability of our soldiers is there but the willpower and leadership is lacking. Our free press is there scrutinizing, our soft voting public is there to offer a short sighted emotional political swing, and we cannot maintain the brutality, momentum, and determination required to win wars. We can flatten and invade, but we always pull out because we don't have the stomach for truly defeating and eliminating the enemy; destroying their homes, their sympathizers and supporters. But they do. They make us think pulling out is the only option because we should not be there in the first place. We lose 38 soldiers and it's time to pack up?

If we can't commit to win a war, we should not be part of the invasion force to begin with. Personally I think we should have been involved in overthrowing the Taliban - a much better fight than Iraq. If we properly committed our forces, it is an entirely winnable scenario. The hand over farce is a disgrace while the Taliban is as strong as it still is.

[bob10]

The Afghans never invited us,

[So why are we there?]



We lose 38 soldiers and it's time to pack up?

[ Spoken like a true armchair General. One person lost in this fiasco is one person too many. I will respect that comment when I see you in uniform , weapon in hand, patrolling the Green Zone]

If we can't commit to win a war, we should not be part of the invasion force to begin with.

[ Now I agree with that]


Personally I think we should have been involved in overthrowing the Taliban - a much better fight than Iraq.

[I thought this was all about Bin Laden & his followers? Where would you have us fight next? Zimbabwe, Somalia, Tibet, Burma, Iran?]


If we properly committed our forces, it is an entirely winnable scenario. The hand over farce is a disgrace.

[Ask the Russians about that. Do you think the Americans didn't commit their forces during the Vietnam conflict? Why, they even tried to bomb the North into submission , and with all their firepower, the superior will of the North Vietnamese won in the end. All this war has done is once again shown the Afgan people that the most powerful Nation in the World, supported by many other Nations, can not change a thing in their country. The handover is the only way the USA can retreat fron Afganistan with any form of dignity.]



Interesting to see the individuals killed & detained by the troops chasing the murderer of the three Aussie soldiers have been reported as " well connected " members of the Popalzai tribe, to which President Karzai, and both the Oruzgan governor and Police Chief all belong. Afganistan is a snakepit of feuding tribes, people who will switch loyalties to whichever group will be in their best interests. The arrogance of the USA , and the misguided Countries that blindly followed them in , in thinking they could control that mess is astounding.

I think the war on terror has to be fought, but we have to be a lot smarter in how we go about it. Big lessons must be learned from the Afgan fiasco, and quickly. And heres another thought, if Aus. thinks we have a refugee problem now, wait until the real fight starts when the troops pull out .

One last word, our Men & Women in the Armed Forces have performed magnificently doing the job asked of them. When they come home, they must be given the respect due to them, they can hold their heads high, and look us all in the eye. I guarantee there will be some Politicians who will not be able to look them in the eye, Bob

[akelly]

To work out if any conflict is winable you have to know what that word (win) means. I suggest that we don't know what it means in Afghanistan and we didn't know what it meant in Iraq.

It's easy to criticise, that's why I do it! But seriously, the big problem with 1st world military forces is that although they are led by career professionals, the force is directed by politics. The best we can say about our involvement in AFG is that it has been relatively unaffected by politics so far - both major parties have the same policy.

The handover will be a problem, but it's a case of 'you have to stop sometime'. Even the most casual observer would identify that there is going to be big problems once ISAF depart, but that would be true 10 years from now.

1st world military forces can 'win' against insurgents - it just requires an understanding of what that is going to look like before the battles start. Look at Libya - a fairly well run campaign by the US/NATO, with a well defined end-state (in terms of US/NATO involvement). The problem in Iraq is that idiots like Rumsfeld thought the US would be welcomed with showers of rose petals and cheering masses - the military told him it would be the opposite but he was too stupid to listen.

Cheers,

Adam

[Vanguard]

[So why are we there?]

You answered this yourself below, but when you invade a country, for whatever purpose, you do not usually ask permission.

[ Spoken like a true armchair General. One person lost in this fiasco is one person too many. I will respect that comment when I see you in uniform , weapon in hand, patrolling the Green Zone]

I presume you're in an armchair too, and like me proclaim to have a valid opinion ;) I think this kind of commentry, making the mission out to be pointless, degrades the work our guys are doing over there. From the people I know who have been there, a lot of change has occurred, and a lot of it (while unreported) is positive.

If you are not willing to lose a single life in the pursuit of your objectives via warfare, then you should not be involved in armed conflict. You're better off going to a UN talkfest. They have a dreafully low success rate but keep the pacifists happy.

[I thought this was all about Bin Laden & his followers? Where would you have us fight next? Zimbabwe, Somalia, Tibet, Burma, Iran?]

You are correct, but so am I. The Taliban were aiding and sheltering Bin Laden, and as I said, it was a better fight than Iraq and the dodgey excuse used there.

[Ask the Russians about that. Do you think the Americans didn't commit their forces during the Vietnam conflict?]

Err yes I do, but I was of the understanding that was a general historical consensus. Do you think they did fully commit?? There were definitely periods of commitment but not consistently. When the US military did commit in Vietnam, it typically won every major conflict. But politicians got their noses into military business and the overall effectiveness was diluted. It was politically unpopular, so they committed less and less.

[Why, they even tried to bomb the North into submission , and with all their firepower, the superior will of the North Vietnamese won in the end. All this war has done is once again shown the Afgan people that the most powerful Nation in the World, supported by many other Nations, can not change a thing in their country. The handover is the only way the USA can retreat fron Afganistan with any form of dignity.]

You are exactly right re: willpower. That is what I have been saying. We go into these conflicts without the will, with a political cycle and an informed public who all get their say, and I do not believe we can properly commit to winning wars. And if we have people saying we can't afford to lose one life when we do commit, well then the public just don't have the stomach for it (which by default means the politicians need to accommodate for that by promising to get out). You will find most determined enemies consider the loss of life a given; i.e. they have the willpower required to win.

[One last word, our Men & Women in the Armed Forces have performed magnificently doing the job asked of them. When they come home, they must be given the respect due to them, they can hold their heads high, and look us all in the eye. I guarantee there will be some Politicians who will not be able to look them in the eye]

If you do believe that, I do not think you should dismiss the role or mission that they have performed. I know people who have served do not consider it a pointless fiasco.:(

[cartm58]

So we have been there 10 years, we have been training the Afghan army for 10 years and we are there for another 2 years before we hand it all over to the Afghans to fight for themselves.

We have been spending something like $2 billion a year on the Afghan commitment and billions in aid over the period have been committed by the Govt for public infrastructure projects.

Yet we haven't defeated the Taliban, we haven't achieved peace, we haven't changed the quality of life of the Afghan people, we haven't improved their economy, we haven't changed their cultural and religious views about the right of women. We got boat loads of Afghans coming to Australia costing us billions more in border security, off shore processing centres and refugees welfare payments and in the future we will have cultural clashes in Australia because they don't have our values and can't live in a modern democratic society.

So l would score our efforts as a big ****ing zero and a waste of Australian lives and resources.

We should have never gone there in the first place and we shouldn't have stayed as long as we have.

But we are the Yankees best buddies in the whole world lucky us

[akelly]

So we have been there 10 years, we have been training the Afghan army for 10 years and we are there for another 2 years before we hand it all over to the Afghans to fight for themselves.

We have been spending something like $2 billion a year on the Afghan commitment and billions in aid over the period have been committed by the Govt for public infrastructure projects.

Yet we haven't defeated the Taliban, we haven't achieved peace, we haven't changed the quality of life of the Afghan people, we haven't improved their economy, we haven't changed their cultural and religious views about the right of women. We got boat loads of Afghans coming to Australia costing us billions more in border security, off shore processing centres and refugees welfare payments and in the future we will have cultural clashes in Australia because they don't have our values and can't live in a modern democratic society.

So l would score our efforts as a big ****ing zero and a waste of Australian lives and resources.

We should have never gone there in the first place and we shouldn't have stayed as long as we have.

But we are the Yankees best buddies in the whole world lucky us

Most of your statements are incorrect! I understand your point, but it's important to sort fact from opinion.

What do you base your statements about the quality of life, rights of women and the economy of Afghanistan on? Your opinions are directly opposite of almost everyone else (except the Taliban, of course!).

[Brad110]

The problem lies in the future,

If the Taliban are left to take over the country will revert to a tribal state now well armed and funded with outside fundamentalist funding. They wont have the old era weaponry of the past but have modern delivery systems.

Withdrawal of western influence will leave a state in which anti western hatred will breed and has the potential to spread to neighbouring nuclear countries.

It is like the middle east, the one thing that will unite traditional enemies and parties is their hatred for the west. Those that do now and the remainder that will be left without our support.

Leaving may leave us facing no choice but contend with these problems reaching our shore. Although the problem is difficult to manage and determine the right course of action, it is possibly best dealt with where it is rather allowing it to spread.

Albeit the cost is very high, not only in the deaths but the unseen casualties. Our government agencies are just realising the ongoing result of armed conflict and exposure to situations and environments that increasingly differ from our soft/ protected lifestyle.

Whatever ensues we our society needs to look after our servicemen and women.