186 Engine problem NEED HELP

[debruiser]

Ok,

Just tried to start my S3 109 with a 186 conversion (I've never seen it run) Found out that the fuel pump arm/leaver is broken off (in the engine somewhere), also there is weird squealing type noise coming from either the water pump or the alternator. The engine also has some oil leaks (not sure where they are coming from but they are there...)

Do I fix bother to rebuild the engine OR do i swap it for a 200tdi/300tdi?

Does a 200tdi/300tdi bolt straight into a 6 cylinder land rover (was originally a 2.6)

Please help I'm stuck.... :(

I really am not a huge fan of petrol 4x4's, but on the other hand I was expecting to have to swap the engine before I could at least see if the gearbox is working.

[Homestar]

I think the diesel engines would give your drive train a bit of a hard time, and I wouldn't expect the gearbox to live too long behind one. You would also need a different adaptor plate than the holden one.

The 186 is an easy and cheap engine to fix. Did you have it running off the fuel in the carby bowl to hear the squealing noise, or was that just by turning the engine over? Water pumps and alternators are plentiful at the wreckers, and wouldn't cost much to change.

Oil leaks could be as simple as the rocker cover gasket, side plate gaskets, or sump gasket - all easy and cheap to fix. I would drop the sump off anyway to retrieve the busted bit of the fuel pump. A new or secondhand unit is easy to fit.

Unless the engine has something seriously wrong internally, I would just fix it up - heaps easier and cheaper than another engine transplant.

Cheers - Gav

[debruiser]

I was pouring fuel down the carby to get it to go, ran ok a couple of times.

I havn't done nor do i have the gear to do a compression test. so I have no idea what condition that part of things are in....

[Homestar]

If it runs, then that is a good start - if it ran smoothly and didn't blow heaps of smoke continuously, then it is probably fine - they are tough, reliable engines. I would whip the fan belt off and spin the alternator and water pump to see what is making the noise - my guess is the alternator - these are generally only 35 amp jobs, which is more than enough for a Series III. You should be able to pick another up cheap from the wreckers, or if you want to pull it apart, chuck in a couple of new bearings. Pity you are so far away, as I have a couple in the shed you are welcome to.

With the fuel pump, you can just put a small electric fuel pump in, and not even worry about the mechanical one, but I would drop the sump off and retrieve the busted bit at some stage.

Cheers - Gav

[30t of coolness]

Check under your vehicle if it was origionally a 2.6 there may be an electric fuel pump installed already , otherwise I'd fix the 186 good reliable engine.

[debruiser]

Check under your vehicle if it was origionally a 2.6 there may be an electric fuel pump installed already , otherwise I'd fix the 186 good reliable engine.

It is the 2.6 model. Where would I find the pump?

[debruiser]

I have found a 202 blue engine - fully reconditioned for sale. Can I drop this straight in? will it have the same stud pattern as the 186?

[Blknight.aus]

yep but if you dont put a restrictor plate in you can kill the engine with it and it will drink like zaphod beeblebrox.

[30t of coolness]

The fuel pump should be on the chassis rail under the driver seat , I am pretty sure the stud pattern never changed on the blue motors as the WB's used the same Aussie 4spd box as the earlier oldhens

[pfillery]

It is the 2.6 model. Where would I find the pump?

In mine which is the same, an original 6 vehicle, the electric fuel pump is mounted to the chassis under the drivers seat. I believe this is the standard location. You can also fit an electric one under the bonnet which does the same job. You do need to put a blanking plate on the old mechanical fuel pump. As mentioned you would need to remove the broken bit.



I have found a 202 blue engine - fully reconditioned for sale. Can I drop this straight in? will it have the same stud pattern as the 186?

It is widely accepted by many that the 186 is a far better power plant in a landrover than the 202. More cc's but not as good apparently, they also have a fibre timing gear instead of metal. Matter of opinion but from what I hear, stick to the 186. It will bolt straight in though.

[debruiser]

yep but if you dont put a restrictor plate in you can kill the engine with it and it will drink like zaphod beeblebrox.

Ok my non-mechanicalness is going to come out now.... what is a restrictor plate and what does it do? how much?

[Blknight.aus]

that should have read kill the gearbox.

a restrictor plate is just a plate with a smaller hole drilled in it to limit the engines max power.

I'm backing pfillerys previous posts and reckon that if your even half decent with the spanners (which pretty much means you know which end of the screwdriver you hold onto and that its the end of the spanners that go on the nuts/bolts) you'll get out of replacing the alternator, waterpump and fitting an electric fuel pump for less than $350.

To test what youve got identify which is squealing at you (most likely the alternator if the pumps not dropping water) by removing the belt and turning each by hand) and get the engine running by means of a lawnmower fuel tank strapped to the roof gravity feeding the carby.

as a side thought a 202 on LPG wouldnt be a bad option BUT lpg just got stupidly expensive.

[debruiser]

that should have read kill the gearbox.

a restrictor plate is just a plate with a smaller hole drilled in it to limit the engines max power.

I'm backing pfillerys previous posts and reckon that if your even half decent with the spanners (which pretty much means you know which end of the screwdriver you hold onto and that its the end of the spanners that go on the nuts/bolts) you'll get out of replacing the alternator, waterpump and fitting an electric fuel pump for less than $350.

To test what youve got identify which is squealing at you (most likely the alternator if the pumps not dropping water) by removing the belt and turning each by hand) and get the engine running by means of a lawnmower fuel tank strapped to the roof gravity feeding the carby.

as a side thought a 202 on LPG wouldnt be a bad option BUT lpg just got stupidly expensive.

yea a water pump, fuel pump (is already off) and alternator is a piece of cake to change!

What concerns me is if it has unleaded valves, if not how bad are the valves... and what condition all of the piston rings are in. Remembering i've never actually seen this beast running! only a couple of spurts today when i poured fuel down the carb.

I found a new head with unleaded valves for 450 plus freight also... but I figured by the time I change that and the water pump, alternator (if needed; although i did spin it and it doesnt' seem to make noise) I could just buy a nice professionally redone motor for not a lot more as well as have the added bonus of a bit more poke!

What bugs me most was that I was hoping to have this thing on the road soonish.... now i have unforseen holdups! :( Although I should have known better purchasing a 30yr old car without seeing the engine run.... silly me....

[Blknight.aus]

3:1 says its fine.

rip the rocker cover off, your going to improvise a leak down test, you'll need a friend, an air compressor and one of the dusting guns with a big rubber cone shapped nose on it.

with the rocker cover off , remove the spark plugs identify which valves are on the rock (exhaust still closing inlet just opening) and then test the cylinder that is opposite it over the center (if 4 is rocking test 3, 2 test 5 1 test 6)

to test lock the vehicle into 4 hi and secure the vehicle put compressed air into the cylinder through the plug hole listen at the inlet and the exhaust if you dont hear much then the seals are good enough to work. then simply turn the engine over 120ish degrees to get the next pot ready and go again.

you can get cheap compression testers for $50ish Stanley Compact Compression Tester - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Stanley-Compact-Compression-Tester.aspx?pid=12557#Description(cheaper) on ebay) (cheaper on ebay)

the test principle is the same but you push the gauge into the plug hole and with the vehicle in neutral spin the engine over on the starter and read the pressure. Done.

[Blknight.aus]

3:1 says its fine.

rip the rocker cover off, your going to improvise a leak down test, you'll need a friend, an air compressor and one of the dusting guns with a big rubber cone shapped nose on it.

with the rocker cover off , remove the spark plugs identify which valves are on the rock (exhaust still closing inlet just opening) and then test the cylinder that is opposite it over the center (if 4 is rocking test 3, 2 test 5 1 test 6)

to test lock the vehicle into 4 hi and secure the vehicle put compressed air into the cylinder through the plug hole listen at the inlet and the exhaust if you dont hear much then the seals are good enough to work. then simply turn the engine over 120ish degrees to get the next pot ready and go again.

you can get cheap compression testers for $50ish Stanley Compact Compression Tester - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Stanley-Compact-Compression-Tester.aspx?pid=12557#Description) (cheaper on ebay) Wilmar W80580 Compression Tester Tool 0-300 PSI | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wilmar-W80580-Compression-Tester-Tool-0-300-PSI-/190666958177?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools&hash=item2c64a2e561)

the test principle is the same but you push the gauge into the plug hole and with the vehicle in neutral spin the engine over on the starter and read the pressure. Done.

[debruiser]

Managed to borrow a compression tester from a mate!

Going to try to do a test tomorrow. What sort of PSI should I expect from a good/acceptable/poor cylinder?

[Homestar]

It's more about consistancy across the cylinders. As long as they are all relatively even -say within about 10PSI of each other, then I wouldn't be worried too much. As for actual values, I would guesstimate about 140PSI for an engine with a few Km on it - could be wrong, it depends on what compression engine it originally was - there was a HC and LC version.

[pfillery]

Talking to the Holden guys, they say not to be concerned running a 186 with unleaded. Apparently they will run a couple of hundred thousand k's before the valves die. So basically if you have to do the valves, do unleaded valves, as the price difference is minimal, but if the valves are ok just leave them, and they say not to worry too much about lead replacers, valve additives etc. This is just the vibe I've heard from holden gurus so don't quote me on it, bear in mind a holden engine in a landy is strained a little more.

But stick with a 186.

[Jeff]

As for the 186 is better than 202 argument, I think the age and condition of the engine would be more important, I have had a 202 that was very good and a 186 that was very ordinary. When they were new it may have been different, but that was a long time ago.

Jeff

:rocket:

[debruiser]

Quickly did a compression test this morning. Looks like the rings are on the way out....going to see how much a rebuild kit is and compare that to new engines or a recon head.yes I know i'm talking about 2 different bits but if i'm pulling the engine apart them I'd prefer to do everything so that its pretty much new.

So I guess I have a bunch of researching to do.

[30t of coolness]

As long as your engine hasn't been reco'd by GEM engines already you should be fine as I believe GEM takes all the bores out to max oversize so when they wear out the're landfill.:(

[Homestar]

As long as your engine hasn't been reco'd by GEM engines already you should be fine as I believe GEM takes all the bores out to max oversize so when they wear out the're landfill.:(

They generally take them out to 60 thou straight away, but you can do an 80 thou over rebore - the pistons and rings are available, but it is a bit hit and miss going this far over, there is plenty of meat in the bores, but the castings can be offset slightly, so you run the risk of wrecking the block - a mate used to go straight to 80 thou over for his speedway engines, but it was a 50/50 chance that the block would survive the rebore:D - best stick to 60 thou...

[debruiser]

Ok Got my hands on a compression tester! did a bit of a test.

Got the following results.
Cyl 1 - 120psi (with a dash of oil added got 160psi)
Cyl 2 - 140psi (oil 170psi)
Cyl 3 - 120 psi (oil 170psi)
Cyl 4 - 150 psi (oil 190psi)
Cyl 5 - 140psi (oil 170 psi)
Cyl 6 - 130 psi (oil 170 psi)

They are all well and good but what does it mean? What should I expect from a 186???

[30t of coolness]

the Gregorys manual I have for a LH /LX torana lists compression vaues of 130 - 170 psi ( in a new engine with 20 psi variation) so yours seem fine get some fuel into the carby & fire her up ! :D

[russellrovers]

It is the 2.6 model. Where would I find the pump?
hi the electric pump can be at the side of main tank and you would hear it tick jim

[Blknight.aus]

thatt do it, facet pump onto it fix the squeeker and your away

[Homestar]

Those compression figures look fine - I would go with what you have, it will have plenty of like left in it yet. Do the fuel pump and alternator, and you should be sweet.

Cheers - Gav

[debruiser]

just bought a new fuel pump! $140 bucks later.....

Also put a new water pump on order! Wait for the price..... $30! What that hell????? it's crazy I tell you, no logic at all!

[debruiser]

just bought a new fuel pump! $140 bucks later.....

Also put a new water pump on order! Wait for the price..... $30! What that hell????? it's crazy I tell you, no logic at all!


Well that fuel pump didn't fit.... had to order in a different one! Put that on and away she went (after I pulled the sump off and got the floaties out, replaced the sump gasket and change the oil filter)

I think she needs a tune up, when you stop the throttle open it stalls. It's also blowing a bit too much smoke :(

Any suggestions?

[Homestar]

The carby could probably use a kit run through it, and as you said, a good tune up. Check points, timing, etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about the smoke just yet - if it hasn't been run for a while, it will be smokey for a while.

I just took my Series III for a spin around my mates yard - first time it has been running and driving in years, and it was blowing heaps of smoke for the first 10 minutes, but settled down after a while.

Get it to run well, then worry about the smoke - I think you will find it should clear up once running properly and has been driven a bit.:)

Cheers - Gav

[debruiser]

The carby could probably use a kit run through it, and as you said, a good tune up. Check points, timing, etc.

I wouldn't worry too much about the smoke just yet - if it hasn't been run for a while, it will be smokey for a while.

I just took my Series III for a spin around my mates yard - first time it has been running and driving in years, and it was blowing heaps of smoke for the first 10 minutes, but settled down after a while.

Get it to run well, then worry about the smoke - I think you will find it should clear up once running properly and has been driven a bit.:)

Cheers - Gav

Ahhh great thank you Gav.

I'll check part one - carbi kit done. (did that before I even tried to crank the engine!)
Dad looked at the points the other day and said they looked ok.
But i'm going to have to check the timing.

That is interesting that they run smoky for a while... didn't know that. You have put me at ease, or at least a little more at ease.

O and a new water pump, and thermostat are going in tomorrow.

[Homestar]

If the engine hasn't been running for a while, everything takes time to free up properly and seal properly. The rings are probably half stuck in the pistons and not working very well on the bores. Also the valve stem seals will be hard, so oil will be getting past them into the cylinders. I wouldn't worry about this at all for the moment.:) The rings will free up once the engine has to do some work.

If the engine is running smoothly and drives well, it will be fine. Worst case scenario is it may need a new set of rings at some stage later on, and maybe a valve grind. Nothing too hard on these engines at all.

As for the tune up, start with the ignition and get that right. If the points look good, check the gap, or better still, set the gap using a dwell meter. After that, set the timing. Check to make sure you have a nice fat blue spark - not a wimpy orange one - you may have a coil that is half stuffed. If that is all ok, then the flat spot you mention when you floor it will probably still be a carby issue - check float level, mixture etc.

Once you have done all that, it should run like a clock.:) I have still to do most of this on mine - only got it running the other day for the first time in years, and it runs smoothly, but does have a flat spot. I haven't even rebuilt the carby yet let alone checked the timing, etc. The Holden red 6's are great engines - do the work, and you will be rewarded.

Cheers - Gav

[debruiser]

Ok, the new water pump and thermostat (or should I say the outter ring of the thermostat) went in, as well as new radiator hoses (custom made by me!) A S2ish (i think) radiator, quiet 2nd hand but doesn't even leak after I ran the engine for 30mins with no cooling fan (ooops):wasntme: also got put in.

found out that there is still a water leak somewhere around the engine so i'm putting in a new thermostat housing this weekend. [thumbsupbig] Crossing fingers that this does the trick! total bill for the cooling system is somewhere around $400!!! and thats with my 5 finger discount on the radiator! haha.

Gav, you were right! The blue smoke is slowly disappearing... only does it when you rev now. I'm hoping that it gets better as i run the engine more. I am thinking I will register it with that motor and contemplate a rebuild/V8/Diesel/something else that I havnt considered yet/ignore.

I think the mrs is starting to buck a little at the cost of my little 'project toy'. :( O well, it's getting closer to completion!

Does anyone know how much/how easy it is to get a recon gear box for a series 3 6cyl? my box leaks oil like crazy.

[Blknight.aus]

valve stem seals will be cactus if its only lightly smoking.


sealing a series box is just a case of plenty of silicone and about $50 for seals (including the Tcase seals)

[debruiser]

Do you think it will be ok if I just put new seals in? Or would it need more work, ie it needs a proper rebuild

[Homestar]

I think the mrs is starting to buck a little at the cost of my little 'project toy'. :( O well, it's getting closer to completion!


Easy - tell her you are getting your parts cheap through the forum:D. I'm bugeting about $4K to get mine to where I want it - and that is more of a preservation rather than restoration, but nearly half of that will be the engineers report and RWC - ouch... My policy is not to tell SWMBO what I spend on any of the cars....;)


Do you think it will be ok if I just put new seals in? Or would it need more work, ie it needs a proper rebuild

New valve stem seals will generally require the head to come off (you can do them with the head on, but I find it easier with it off), but it is not a huge job, then you just need a valve spring compressor - you can do all this yourself if you are confident. The compression test looked ok, so I wouldn't be too worried about the valves or rings at the moment. As you said, get it on the road then have a think about what you finally want to get out of it.

If it was mine, I wouldn't even worry about doing them yet - it is not detrimental to the engine in any way (unless you run it out of oil...:D)

Cheers - Gav

[Hall]

As far as tuning, you can fit the later electronic distributor from the black or blue series motors and have no points to worry about. The valve stem seals can be done with out removing the head. If the valves are sealing well enough you can apply air pressure to hold the valves in place. From what I have learned about the 186 and the 202. The 202 was introduced for the automatic and was a higher toruqe through a longer stroke. The 186 was a more responsive free revving motor due to the shorter stroke. Can`t get much more of a basic motor than these. Had one in a Stout I owned and it went well.
Cheers Hall

[debruiser]

Thanks guys. I'm planning on getting that engine on the road. I was actually referring to the gear box, will it need more than just new seals?

[Blknight.aus]

you wont know till you drive it or strip it.

[Landy Smurf]

nice thread, I am learning quite a bit

[debruiser]

I found it very informative too Schmierer ;) Well... it's a couple of months on from my last post on this thread. Been driving the 186 around (got a Detroit locker for the back and LSD for the front! goes great). That radiator I 'found' leaks as well :( but only very very slowly so it's still in there. but I'm pretty sure that I need a new one. A couple of the cores have been sealed off ie there is no cooling effect from those cores. correct me if I'm wrong but that would reduce my cooling ability pretty badly? she likes to get hot when you drive in 2nd and 3rd constantly, for eg, when climbing a range, or driving steadily down a dirt track. And when I went out on the weekend, was trying to keep up with a Rodeo down the highway so i was sitting on 90km/hr for a while and the temp started to climb as well. (no overdrive). I have a new/ready to be fixed gearbox on the way! so I will be building that over the coming months. Should be very exciting and informative since it's my first time even pulling a gearbox apart. I have a 2.25 engine on the way as well, it needs lots of love too. that will be project for the future.

[Landy Smurf]

cool. I just got a 186 engine and it has a water issue so i have been trying to read as much as i can about them. I know very little about mechanics too. The gearbox's in them are quite simple. No doubt you will get a bit confused and do a few stuff ups but you get there in the end.2.25 petrol or diesel ?

[debruiser]

I try not to plan on stuffing things up ;) Got a diesel. It's the only way to go :D

[Landy Smurf]

i had a 2.25l diesel i was very happy with the fuel economy and i thought the power was not to bad

[Chris72]

Ok Got my hands on a compression tester! did a bit of a test.

Got the following results.
Cyl 1 - 120psi (with a dash of oil added got 160psi)
Cyl 2 - 140psi (oil 170psi)
Cyl 3 - 120 psi (oil 170psi)
Cyl 4 - 150 psi (oil 190psi)
Cyl 5 - 140psi (oil 170 psi)
Cyl 6 - 130 psi (oil 170 psi)

They are all well and good but what does it mean? What should I expect from a 186???

Was that a cold motor test or hot motor test ?
Cheers Chris

[debruiser]

Chris 72,

That's cold motor test.

[Chris72]

on a hot motor test you will get higher readings as everything heats up it expands, I would say the rings should be ok with those s numbers on a cold test. as for the valves with years of running super fuel there is probably a lot of lead residue stuck in the carbon, personally I would still add some lead replacement additive.
Cheers Chris

[debruiser]

Going to continue this thread rather than start a new one.

Just got me a new Electronic dizzy for my 186! YAY! no more points etc.

Problem is that I seem to be more inept at fixing these things than i thought....

Stuck it in and started it up no problems! BUT then I tried to lift the revs gently... would only rev to about 1500rpm. then would coff out. If I just fed it heaps then it would backfire.

So I pulled the top back of the dizzy and made sure I had TDC correct (the long line on the thingo needs to line up with the timing mark on the crank pully gadget, right?) So then I stuck it back together, now it runs rough, tried fiddling with the timing a bit but no good! What did I do wrong and how do I fix it?????

Anyone live in Mackay and would like to come and point and give instructions so I can fix it??? I'm stuck :(

[debruiser]

Come on guys... someone must have some idea.... :( I'm stuck.

[bee utey]

1. Are you using a compatible electronic coil (correct) or the old points coil?
2. Are you using the original coil +ve wire or have you run a new decent sized wire from the ignition switch (correct)?
3. Have you double/triple checked the timing order? 1-5-3-6-2-4 clockwise.
4. Have you checked the dissy rotor is in the correct position with regards to the contacts in the cap? These dissies fire when the pointy star rotor lines up its teeth with the teeth on the pickup around it. The rotor must overlap the cap contact under no vacuum and full vacuum conditions. Mark the position of no.1 lead position accurately on the dissy base so you can see it with the cap off. I've seen rough handling shear the locating lug out of the rotor.
5. Have you closely inspected ALL the lead contact clips for burning and damage?
6. Have you got a timing light to check the timing? Under $40 on ebay you know.
7. Have you got the correct cap and rotor, genuine and spotlessly clean, not chinese copy rubbish?
8. Are the screws holding the ignition module to the dissy base clean and tight?
9. Is there heat sink paste under the module?
10.Are the wires to the module loose?

That should keep you going for a few minutes...

[D mac]

I might be preaching to the converted.
If you have a holden motor and you will be taking it off road.
Make sure that you have the sump and pick up off either a HK T or G these sumps have the lowest part in the middle. This will prevent oil starvation when decending steep grades.

Cheers Don

[debruiser]

1. Are you using a compatible electronic coil (correct) or the old points coil?

the unit I ahve installed is: Holden 186 202 Electronic Distributor HEI Biult IN Coil Includes NEW Leads Black | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HOLDEN-186-202-ELECTRONIC-DISTRIBUTOR-HEI-BIULT-IN-COIL-INCLUDES-NEW-LEADS-BLACK-/161001738219?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item257c738feb&_uhb=1)

So it has an built in coil and came with new leads.

2. Are you using the original coil +ve wire or have you run a new decent sized wire from the ignition switch (correct)?
Original wiring. What sort of current will this sucker be pulling????

3. Have you double/triple checked the timing order? 1-5-3-6-2-4 clockwise.

Double triple quadruple quintuple even!!

4. Have you checked the dissy rotor is in the correct position with regards to the contacts in the cap? These dissies fire when the pointy star rotor lines up its teeth with the teeth on the pickup around it. The rotor must overlap the cap contact under no vacuum and full vacuum conditions. Mark the position of no.1 lead position accurately on the dissy base so you can see it with the cap off. I've seen rough handling shear the locating lug out of the rotor.

Double checked, triple checked.

5. Have you closely inspected ALL the lead contact clips for burning and damage?

As per previous - all brand spanking new.

6. Have you got a timing light to check the timing? Under $40 on ebay you know.

NO timing light.... wouldn't know what to do with it anyway... :(

7. Have you got the correct cap and rotor, genuine and spotlessly clean, not chinese copy rubbish?

It's a complete change out unit.... all of it is new

8. Are the screws holding the ignition module to the dissy base clean and tight?

Yes...

9. Is there heat sink paste under the module?

Umm???? Please explain....

10.Are the wires to the module loose?

Nope checked that


That should keep you going for a few minutes...

Thanks for the reply

[debruiser]

I might be preaching to the converted.
If you have a holden motor and you will be taking it off road.
Make sure that you have the sump and pick up off either a HK T or G these sumps have the lowest part in the middle. This will prevent oil starvation when decending steep grades.

Cheers Don

D Mac, I will check that....

[debruiser]

bee utey,

Just checked the voltage at on the active to the dizzy, shows me 12.7. Batt is at 12.8. Is it worth putting in a slightly bigger wire? 15A do the trick?

nick

[bee utey]

Aah, I originally thought you bought a real Holden one like this:

Electronic Ignition EH HD HR HK HT HG HQ HJ HX LC LJ LH LX UC Holden Torana | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ELECTRONIC-IGNITION-EH-HD-HR-HK-HT-HG-HQ-HJ-HX-LC-LJ-LH-LX-UC-HOLDEN-TORANA-/190794579584?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c6c3e3e80)

The one you have is a total unknown to me, probably made by the bucket load in China and marked up 1000% for ozzie retail. I wouldn't touch one with a 40 foot pole, myself.

Anyway, the point of the power wire for the dissy is that the points system contains a resistor that comes into play as soon as a load appears on it. Measuring the voltage with the engine stopped is irrelevant. Put a 55W globe on it as a load THEN measure the voltage. Run a new wire and see if it helps, then consider buying a brand name dissy (Bosch, Holden) instead of a boy racer special.

[debruiser]

Aah, I originally thought you bought a real Holden one like this:

Electronic Ignition EH HD HR HK HT HG HQ HJ HX LC LJ LH LX UC Holden Torana | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ELECTRONIC-IGNITION-EH-HD-HR-HK-HT-HG-HQ-HJ-HX-LC-LJ-LH-LX-UC-HOLDEN-TORANA-/190794579584?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c6c3e3e80)

The one you have is a total unknown to me, probably made by the bucket load in China and marked up 1000% for ozzie retail. I wouldn't touch one with a 40 foot pole, myself.

Anyway, the point of the power wire for the dissy is that the points system contains a resistor that comes into play as soon as a load appears on it. Measuring the voltage with the engine stopped is irrelevant. Put a 55W globe on it as a load THEN measure the voltage. Run a new wire and see if it helps, then consider buying a brand name dissy (Bosch, Holden) instead of a boy racer special.

I couldn't afford a holden one :( so boy racer it was :(

I will give the wire a poke and see.... can't make it worse can it!

[debruiser]

Also getting me a new PCV kit! hopefully that will sort out some of the flat spot that was there before my tuning issues....

[Bearman]

Also getting me a new PCV kit! hopefully that will sort out some of the flat spot that was there before my tuning issues....

A new accellerator pump will probably cure that Nick.

[debruiser]

hmmm..... probably...

the plan is to bin that carbi anyway.... going to get another one or better quality on there. the current one leaks fuel everywhere all the time. and yes it's had a carbi kit through it only a couple 1000kms ago. (about 200kms before you drove in it)

[Bearman]

Whatever way you go make sure you DONT put a Holley carby on it. They are notorious for stalling half way up a decent slope - fuel starvation issues when tilted.

[debruiser]

well that couldn't be much worse than what I have.... you obviously havn't seen the video Bearman! let me see if I can do a link for you....

http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b640/debruiser/HillClimb_zps1ffab270.mp4

[mick88]

A Bosch electronic dizzy that was standard on the later model Holden straight six engines and a Stromberg carby in good nic that is the correct one (jets, venturi etc.) for the 186, and you will have a good reliable donk that performs well.

Cheers, Mick.

[debruiser]

A Bosch electronic dizzy that was standard on the later model Holden straight six engines and a Stromberg carby in good nic that is the correct one (jets, venturi etc.) for the 186, and you will have a good reliable donk that performs well.

Cheers, Mick.

I actually have a stromberg... but it's just not very good (as per previous statements.) My problem is that I don't really know enough about these things! I don't really know people who do know nitty gritty stuff about it all, that can sit down with me and go through my gear and tell me about it and make me fix it! I sure as hell can't afford to pay someone; ie. a mechanic in Mackay; to fix it! and plus then I wont learn anything, which is half the point of having the Series in the first place!

Maybe I should have spent more and got the Bosch dizzy, but money is a bit tight atm so I went for the aftermarket jobby, maybe it wasn't cheaper after-all.... I will keep fiddling with it until 1 of 3 things happens:

1. It works!
2. I give up and buy a bosch unit
3. I burn the car

no wait there is a 4th - buy a decent feeler gauge and go back to using crappy old points....

[debruiser]

Went out for another play just before. Disconnected the Vac advance hose (sealed the end of the hose with vice grips) then started it and got the idle speed to about 600-700ish.... not sure how accurate the tacho is. was running ok, would rev up to 3000rpm no problems! even picked up from idle good with hardly any flat spot (standing still, not driving). Wow i'm pretty excited by now! although there is a miss happening... not sure why, any ideas on that would be good.

So in my new found enthusiasm I decided to see what happens if I un-seal the vac advance! NO difference *insert perplexed look here* tried putting my finger on the hose to feel the vacuum, nothing, so i stuck it on my cheek, still nothing! So I thought, O well too bad maybe it's not much vacuum and can't be felt. O and yes the engine was running!

Stuck the vac hose back on the dizzy, re-start engine. That miss has become more pronounced. BUT what really got me was that now the engine wont rev!!! idles ok but no revs! grrrrrrr..... :censored:

My theory: Something incorrect about the vac advance unit.

Question: What can I do about it? I'm going to assume that permanently disconnecting will be bad for fuel economy and possibly bits inside the engine.

[Bearman]

You need to get the timing set correctly before you look any further Nick.

[debruiser]

just re-read what I posted.

I ment that I shifted the timing until the idle speed was 6-700. Wouldn't that mean that my timing is pretty close? I havn't touched the carbi at all.

[jboot51]

It's been awhile since I played with a 186.
I don't think your going about it correctly.

Have a look here-186 timing issue | OldHolden.com (http://oldholden.com/node/86765)

That'll get your timing right.
Then adjust the idle screw and mixture to get your idle speed.

[jboot51]

I think the vac advance needs to be disconnected when setting timing.

My memory is failing me.........

[D mac]

Just a thought.
If the engine idles but it won't rev.It could be possible that you need to look at the main jet and associated emulsion tube.
Could be blocked.
Don't be afraid of this carby. They are as simple as you can get.
Put another kit through it.
With regards to the leaks. Invert the carb body and use medium emery paper on a piece of flat glass and use a figure of 8 motion to try and correct any warpage. repeat this on the top horn (remove the vacuum piston first)
You need to set the float level with the engine running and the vacum hole blocked.
Any old holden manual will show you how.
Best of Luck

Don

[Hoges]

Don't forget there's a mechanical advance as well as a vacuum advance on the distributor. Is the mechanical advance operating as it should? The (additional) vacuum advance is required mainly for combustion of lean mixtures produced by a partial and /or trailing throttle...e.g. cruising or on over run down hill etc

From your description it appears that the non revving issue is a combination of timing (incl advance) and carburettor. The lack of revs could well be that the float valve is stuck and the float level is incorrectly set. You need to physically bend the float arm to get the correct level...at the same time keeping the float as flat as possible. There used to be a special tool for this ... a 75mm strip of aluminium 2mm thick and 7mm or thereabouts wide with a 3mm wide transverse slit extending about halfway across the strip from one side and located about 5mm from one end..if that makes sense? You position the slit the over the float arm and bend the float arm against tool rather than putting prressure on the float valve which is a bit fragile.

As advised elsewhere, bend the float while the engine is idling and the vacuum passage is blocked off to get an even idle at 500 rpm and measure the depth of fuel in the float bowl from the top of the bowl without the gasket in place.

One of those thin 6" engineers rulers with a piece of carboard attached as a sliding "saddle" is ideal... slide the ruler down until it just touches the surface of the fuel and slide the cardboard along the ruler to the top of the bowl read off the value... the fuel surface should be 15.8mm or 0.62" below the face of the bowl

(I once had a torana 173 which was for all intents and purposes the same as the 186 engine. One time driving it to Adelaide from Canberra and it would not do more than 45 mph across the Hay Plains:( Any faster and it would cough and almost stop but cruise all day at 45mph... it was only 6m old! Sure enough it was a dud float valve setting which I managed to fix with a small metal ruler in the basement carpark of the pub we were staying at... It cruised at twice that speed going home:twisted: but that was >40 yrs ago:eek::wasntme: Lesson learned re. float levels.)

If you can get to a public library... Gregory's Manual#84 on the LC-LJ torana has all the info for all the Holden 6 cyl engines from 138-202.

Couple of other things: get yourself a decent timing light from supercheap and a vacuum gauge for setting the idling screw.... they're indispensible!

[debruiser]

Thanks hoges, and everyone. I'm going to spend some time today trying some things, from hoses to float valves.... I'm sure I'll be either happy or ready to burn the car by the end of the day :D

I've got a couple more carbi's coming in the mail (thanks incisor!) I'm thinking I'll rebuild one to the best of my abilities and as per the "Stromberg Caburettion enthusiasts guide" Going to try to do it letter for letter... see how I go. Cross your fingers for me that I end up with something that is as good as new.

[debruiser]

Don't forget there's a mechanical advance as well as a vacuum advance on the distributor. Is the mechanical advance operating as it should? The (additional) vacuum advance is required mainly for combustion of lean mixtures produced by a partial and /or trailing throttle...e.g. cruising or on over run down hill etc

From your description it appears that the non revving issue is a combination of timing (incl advance) and carburettor. The lack of revs could well be that the float valve is stuck and the float level is incorrectly set. You need to physically bend the float arm to get the correct level...at the same time keeping the float as flat as possible. There used to be a special tool for this ... a 75mm strip of aluminium 2mm thick and 7mm or thereabouts wide with a 3mm wide transverse slit extending about halfway across the strip from one side and located about 5mm from one end..if that makes sense? You position the slit the over the float arm and bend the float arm against tool rather than putting prressure on the float valve which is a bit fragile.

As advised elsewhere, bend the float while the engine is idling and the vacuum passage is blocked off to get an even idle at 500 rpm and measure the depth of fuel in the float bowl from the top of the bowl without the gasket in place.

One of those thin 6" engineers rulers with a piece of carboard attached as a sliding "saddle" is ideal... slide the ruler down until it just touches the surface of the fuel and slide the cardboard along the ruler to the top of the bowl read off the value... the fuel surface should be 15.8mm or 0.62" below the face of the bowl

(I once had a torana 173 which was for all intents and purposes the same as the 186 engine. One time driving it to Adelaide from Canberra and it would not do more than 45 mph across the Hay Plains:( Any faster and it would cough and almost stop but cruise all day at 45mph... it was only 6m old! Sure enough it was a dud float valve setting which I managed to fix with a small metal ruler in the basement carpark of the pub we were staying at... It cruised at twice that speed going home:twisted: but that was >40 yrs ago:eek::wasntme: Lesson learned re. float levels.)

If you can get to a public library... Gregory's Manual#84 on the LC-LJ torana has all the info for all the Holden 6 cyl engines from 138-202.

Couple of other things: get yourself a decent timing light from supercheap and a vacuum gauge for setting the idling screw.... they're indispensible!

Tried checking for air leaks, and the float valve height. No change.

I guess I will have to submit and buy a timing light and vacuum gauge. Wont be happening for a while though cause the bank wont give me any more money.... :( So looks like we only have 1 car for a couple of months. :(

[debruiser]

My PCV kit turned up, so I fitted that. Still no improvement....

Does anyone live in Mackay and own a timing light?

[debruiser]

Ok found a timing light and confirmed that I had the timing correct.

Problem still continues as before! Without the vac advance the engine seem sto run well, revs up to 4000rpm ok. BUT when I connect the vac advance it wont rev above 1000rpm.

I've checked for air leaks in the vac advance hose. and a new pcv kit was installed.

ideas please guys!

[bee utey]

Wot I said before about the rotor arm needing to meet the cap terminal under full vacuum still stands. So basically your dissy is a dodgy piece of crap but it runs without the vacuum connected. Solution: either fix the dissy pickup alignment or run it without the vacuum until you can afford a proper dissy. Vacuum advance is not essential to forward motion, it merely adds economy.

[pk.hoarder]

gday debruiser.
I hope this helps, but my memory for the red motor is pretty faint...

sounds to me like the vacc advance diaphragm is crook, or possibly it is the wrong distributor for that motor (the reds have been around a long time and there have been plenty of opportunities for people to mix up the parts by now).

If it revs OK without vacc advance then the centrifugal advance (mechanical weights under top plate of distributor) is probably OK.

one way to check the vacc advance would be to put a tube on the vacc advance line and apply gentle vacc to the other end with some kind of suction - you could put a vacc gauge on a T piece in the line to the suction pump (or your mouth!) to see how much vacc is developing. As the vacc level changes I would think you should see the timing mark change with a timing light (this will probably take 2 people).

We had a Supra 2.8i motor (yuk) a little while back that was incapable of moving the car out of the drive even though it would rev OK no load - turned out to be the distributor vacc advance.

Sorry if you already mentioned it but what carby is on yours now?

I had an old 221 Ford once that was fussy about having the right carby and distributor combination (I had been mixing but not matching & it wasn't working!), not sure if that applies to the red motors.

A final idea - if your Landy has power brakes, perhaps disconnect the brake booster vacc line (fairly thick) and plug it to check the engine. My IIA's vacc booster leaks and it all but kills the motor when it's connected - that was OK for a paddock basher but no good for a road car!

These things are great though, keep on keeping on it will work out in the end.

Cheers
Paul.

[debruiser]

gday debruiser.
I hope this helps, but my memory for the red motor is pretty faint...

sounds to me like the vacc advance diaphragm is crook, or possibly it is the wrong distributor for that motor (the reds have been around a long time and there have been plenty of opportunities for people to mix up the parts by now).

If it revs OK without vacc advance then the centrifugal advance (mechanical weights under top plate of distributor) is probably OK.

one way to check the vacc advance would be to put a tube on the vacc advance line and apply gentle vacc to the other end with some kind of suction - you could put a vacc gauge on a T piece in the line to the suction pump (or your mouth!) to see how much vacc is developing. As the vacc level changes I would think you should see the timing mark change with a timing light (this will probably take 2 people).

We had a Supra 2.8i motor (yuk) a little while back that was incapable of moving the car out of the drive even though it would rev OK no load - turned out to be the distributor vacc advance.

Sorry if you already mentioned it but what carby is on yours now?

I had an old 221 Ford once that was fussy about having the right carby and distributor combination (I had been mixing but not matching & it wasn't working!), not sure if that applies to the red motors.

A final idea - if your Landy has power brakes, perhaps disconnect the brake booster vacc line (fairly thick) and plug it to check the engine. My IIA's vacc booster leaks and it all but kills the motor when it's connected - that was OK for a paddock basher but no good for a road car!

These things are great though, keep on keeping on it will work out in the end.

Cheers
Paul.

Hi paul,

Thanks for the tips! I've got a new dizzy - there is alink earlier in this thread. so one would HOPE that the vac diaphragm is ok, but then again you never can be 100% sure.

I've got a BXV-2 (from a holden 202) on it atm. I've done a rebuild on it previously but it was still giving trouble so I've acquired a different one - in better condition. I've rebuilt that and I'm going to install it today! we'll see what happens. It had been running OK on the old carbi, just had funny quirks at times.

I might try that suggestion of the brake booster leak. It's worth a shot.

[33chinacars]

Not sure what distributor your using but the best upgrade is a late model electronic one. Used them on my race motors. Just fiddled with advanced curve. You will have to get the right coil & leads to suit. These dissies were good to about 8000 rpm . No stuffing about setting points etc

And as has already been said check for vaccum leaks

Gary

[debruiser]

Rebuilt carbi in. 1 1/2 hrs driving round trying to find a brass fitting to fit the vac advance hose. Now at least I know why the car wont run! It's now the carbi :(

Soooo is there anyone out there with some petrol engine experience in Mackay? Feel like coming round on the weekend to help sort out my mess? I'm nearly ready to hire a trailer.... to deliver it to someone... can't decide where yet; could be the dump or a mechanic.... probably cheaper to go to the mechanic though. :eek:

[debruiser]

You guys must be sick of me by now.....

Ok had the car sort of start - enough to get vacuum anyway. I was trying to take off the brake vac line and noticed (engine off) that when I wriggle the vac non return valve - plastic bit sticking out of the master cylinder with hose attached - you could hear air escaping/getting in.... whichever. Does that mean I ahve a vac leak there? do i need to replace the whole master cylinder or just the valve?

[Bazzle218]

first read of post. bear with me. Disconnect the brake booster line and block it and see how it runs. The one way check valve in the booster is exactly that. If you disconnect it at the manifold end and can suck and blow through it is stuffed. Go to a brake place and buy a generic one way check valve and fit it. to check the booster pump the brakes with vaccum line connected but engine not running. hold foot down on brake pedal and start engine. brake pedal should drop. if it doesnt either the booster or check valve is stuffed.

[debruiser]

OK after a bunch of fiddling and farting around, I've got it running! yay! put on a new brake booster valve thingo and tuned up the rebuilt carbi! (i think i've got it right!)

BUT still having trouble with the vac advance line.... without it runs nice, with no show! So i've emailed the supplier to ask for advice. See what he comes up with. (hopefully I"m not just stupid) ;)

On a different note... I'm going to the Mackay Home and leisure show that is on this weekend! going to go check out some stuff - try to get some cool ideas for camping setups etc.

[Davehoos]

no such thing as correct timing for holden 6-it all depends on the rest of the setup and fuel mixture.

most holdens don't use manifold vac for dist advance.
they use a port above the throttle or venturi vacume to increase timing at high speed cruise.

for pollution engines they swap to a 102 degree water temp port to increase timing at idle--to help cooling system.

most of these engines don't need vac advance-you adjust the mechanical advance that is retarded-as it uses vac at higher revs.

my cars I found the HQ 173 dist advance curve to be good and used manifold vac with airconditioning.

[debruiser]

no such thing as correct timing for holden 6-it all depends on the rest of the setup and fuel mixture.

most holdens don't use manifold vac for dist advance.
they use a port above the throttle or venturi vacume to increase timing at high speed cruise. Sorry. That is what I meant.

for pollution engines they swap to a 102 degree water temp port to increase timing at idle--to help cooling system.

most of these engines don't need vac advance-you adjust the mechanical advance that is retarded-as it uses vac at higher revs. ahhh interesting... what I really need to know is how to do that :(

my cars I found the HQ 173 dist advance curve to be good and used manifold vac with airconditioning.

Thanks again for everyones help

Just found out that the supplier is going to call me today regarding my problems with install. He emailed me and said that he has never heard of anyone with these sorts of troubles....

[debruiser]

Sweeeeet. Just spoke to the retailer who sold me the dizzy! he's going to take it back and send me a Bosch unit! yay! very happy:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D