New Defender reliability?

[akelly]

Hi All,

I've been reviewing the threads about late model defender issues with interest. I'm planning to buy a new one in Jan/Feb but starting to wonder if that's such a good idea.

I have a 2000 model 130 at the moment, it has had it's share of minor issues. Generally it's very good though, and I do a lot of km (an average work trip will clock up 3000km).

What's the general feeling about the latest model - could I drive one out of the showroom and head into the wilderness? Mainly touring style work, getting from A-B including remote tracks and whatnot, but not rockcrawling or across the Simpson.

Cheers,

Adam

[KarlB]

All I can say is: 62,000 km in a 2010 D90 without any significant issue. I would be happy to drive one out of the showroom and into the bush but to be sensible, I would do a 1,000 km first to find the loose nuts and bolts!

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[Marty110]

Hi Adam, I bought my Puma new in 2010 and drove it strait out of the showroom to ARB for some add ons and then with 300km on the clock strait to the Vic High Country and did 800km on tracks from moderate to very difficult over 7 days not seeing a made road or track total trip miles over 3,000km - no problem. Also, like you, I use it for work. It was a replacement for my 300Tdi which did 300,000km for me without letting me down. Sure the Puma has had some issues, the biggest frustration of which was fighting with LRA to repair under warranty, but the extra power and comfort of the new Defender has been awesome - especially towing our little off road van on holidays. My issues so far: dust, replaced front diff, replaced rear diff pinion seal (twice), replaced brake booster pump (the new ones have better seals), intercooler hose rubbed through (now silicone hoses and zipped tied out of the way of the steering), rear transfer case seal leak (warranty re-call), front transfer case seal leak (no felt washer in it from new), a switch repair and I think thats it. It has done Googs Track, West Coast sand dunes, most of the 4WD tracks in the Flinders, heaps of paddock work, and 40,000km total now. I love it, but do sometimes wonder if I should have kept the 300Tdi and spent a whole lot less money modifying it to deliver the power of the new one....... still long for the days of no electrics although it is nice to re-map the new one...... Hope that helps

[PAT303]

If you want to believe the knockers don't buy one. Pat

[oldyella 76]

Adam, I bought a 2012 defender in Feb this year. drove it out of the showroom and got 32 Ks and it had an electrical issues and blew a fuse. and stopped. They found a crimped wire. Since then have done 14,000 Ks with no problems. Went to Nth Q'land and back towing a Cub camper and not one problem. I have owned all models of defenders since 1992 and this is the best one. Plenty of knockers around but you need to concentrate on the facts.
Lindsay.

[pannawonica]

I have Puma 110 2011, warranty work has been 2 slightly loose door handles and a temperature sensor on the aircon.:D

[uninformed]

I think you will find them no better nore worse than anything else out there. You could get the best or worst of the bunch. Atleast with LR, most owners are honest about faults, which inturn lets new owners learn. There are a few areas of the New Landrover Defenders to look at if you buy one. But no big deal

Guys like Pat have a good handle on them

[VK3UTE]

My Puma is two years old with 70k on the clock, only issues to date have been a rear diff seal and gearbox output seal replacement which the dealer did under warranty. She is still in her standard trim and I take her anywhere and everywhere. I had a Hilux previously which had big wheels and all the trim, the standard defender is much more capable of the show room floor IMHO.

Cheers Simon.

[NT5224]

Hi Adam

probably not the right person to reply to your question, I just bought a 2012 model 110 and couldn't be more pleased with it. I think I've put just over a thousand kilometres on it its its first week, but I headed straight out bush with it -to my house in fact- and it was covered in dust by the end of the first day.

I guess its still early days, but having struggled with uncertainties after reading the nay-sayers on this and other forums I'm so glad I bought it. Its far more refined than the old series and Tdi and V8 I used to drive, but its still a Land Rover, and brand new one! I have a feeling I'm going to have it a long while.

Cheers

Alan

[Naks]

Bought a new Puma 90 in Feb 2010. So far, with only 34900km on the clock:

New front axle (was pulling left)
New gearbox
New rear diff
New clutch

too many other bits & pieces to mention.


The 2.2 is supposedly much better though.

[Drover]

Now done 47,000k's,

Still got original front and rear diffs, gear box, TC, engine.....etc etc

Been across the Simpson and done the Cape.

Warranty issues -

Clip on sun roof, rear seat locking pin, water leeks, clutch.

All fixed up in the first 2 years of owning it.

Tdci are a good thing, don't be put off by all the bull.

[n plus one]

2009 110 - 80,000ks so far.

No show stoppers - but a few replacement parts (mostly cos' I'm pedantic about drive train lash):

rear axles and seals

transfer case

rear diff

Also a couple of water leaks and a few little bits and pieces.

Everything done during services (with the exception of of the transfer case which took 4 weeks and a crap load of back and forth with LR). Mine's spent a fair bit of time in the Alps, also done a 14,000k (in 3 weeks towing a trailer) round trip to WA as a rallye support vehicle (fair bit of nasty corrugated dirt in that one - as in enough to break the driver's seat frame) and been bashed around the Watagans and Stockton dunes too. Next up is a Simpson run and then maybe the CSR.

I'd guarantee you'll have some issues but, notwithstanding the recent 2.2 hose clamp fiasco, odds on they won't be show stoppers.

PS no clutch issues either...
PPS two friends just got new 70 series, so will be interesting to see their experiences first hand.

[akelly]

Thanks everyone, seems like I'm on the right track. Normal new car issues, to be expected, some problem vehicles but not widespread dramas.

Looking forward to having a new one, but will be sad to part with the old one... Perennial problem for Landy owners I think!

Cheers,

Adam

[Chops]

2011 Crew Cab ute. 25+k on the clock.
Have been on a few trips, both road/track, performed faultlessly.
The only issue it's had was a dodgy ECU (I think) they replaced it along with all the injectors, which they had to do because they couldn't reprogram the old ones, (don't know why).
Had a minor issue with the window guides and also door seals.

Overall, I love it, and I really don't care about the "little" issues. She'll perform better than everything else as a standard unit, then you can do some mods.

[justinc]

knockers and naysayers?:confused: i'd say first hand experience from repairers and owners, personally.

jc

[JayBoRover]

They've certainly had a few issues, but on the positive spin that means there's a wealth of experience with them already. The experience of others on here has already saved me from at least one disaster:).

Things to check from new have to include the clearance between all hose clamps and adjacent hoses under the bonnet, all hose clamps under the bonnet for tightness, a general check around, under and through for loose bolts (I've found bolts missing, bolts with the nut only just on the thread and bolts cross threaded).

It's quite "different" to drive, and I didn't so much like it the very first time I drove it (the drivetrain slop takes some getting used to and the way the throttle "hangs" in the revs while you make your gear change), but I love it more and more all the time now. I can't wait to take it on a decent trip and do some camping again and I love the camaraderie of the Landy owners. I love it when "non-believers" comment on how nice my old Land Rover looks :D and the look on their faces when I say it's only 3 months old and only has 3,500 k's on the clock!:cool: I love the lazy power and the ability to slot it in 6'th gear and leave it there if I want to.

There are also plenty of "quirks" that maybe aren't so great. The steering lock was terrible when new (I've adjusted that now and it's much, much better), I don't like the fact the air-con outlets are only in the centre so your right hand and leg don't get any benefit - heat or cold (I prefer the bulkhead vent flaps on the S2a) and ... and ... actually maybe not "plenty of quirks" - just a couple. I suppose you could throw in the small fuel tank (60 litre) range (+/- 500 km) from standard, but I've fixed that ((150 litres, +/- 1,250 km). Just thought of another quirk - the lack of sound insulation from the road stones flicking under the rear wheel arches. It's like someone firing a handgun behind your head when a stone finally works it's way out of the tread as you're driving down the freeway:eek:!

I'm now really struggling with the decision as to whether to drive the S2a or the new kid on the block! (So I alternate:angel:)

Ciao

[newhue]

Hi All,

I've been reviewing the threads about late model defender issues with interest. I'm planning to buy a new one in Jan/Feb but starting to wonder if that's such a good idea.

I have a 2000 model 130 at the moment, it has had it's share of minor issues. Generally it's very good though, and I do a lot of km (an average work trip will clock up 3000km).

What's the general feeling about the latest model - could I drive one out of the showroom and head into the wilderness? Mainly touring style work, getting from A-B including remote tracks and whatnot, but not rockcrawling or across the Simpson.

Cheers,

Adam

Sorry Adam I'm a knocker, no you cant drive it from the show room floor without issues. 90% chance it will fail large or small unfortunately. I guess most failings aren't show stoppers though some of mine where.

90% chance you will love the truck, but there will always be 10% hanging over your head something stupid will fail on it. I know that is for any vehicle, but we are talking Land Rover here.

I love my truck, but get frustrated with the large ticket items that need replacing, often with the same stock as the first failed part. Why else do people have several diffs, g boxes, tranferes' replaced. LR are doing something wrong and warranty doesn't last past 3 years.
If you're old girl is going well but has a few km on it so what. It will leak like a puma and not go as spritely, but I'd say repair it don't replace it.

The $80K mine coats me sure would have got a nice Tdi sorted, even with replaced panels.

[PAT303]

I drove mine from the showroom to the bush,after 40K it's done the Gunbarrel,great Central,Gibb River and a few others and is still showroom stock,it's just returned from Perth for it's 40K service,no faults logged,no issue's other than the heater control needed the cable adjusted,it drives better than any 4wd I drive and I drive alot of them,the 40K service was $990 drive away which is excellent value and all up the only thing that worries me is that the 130 would be the better choice for the driving I do so it'll be replaced buy one after 3 years. Pat

[uninformed]

The bigger items are sad really, JC may be able to yes or no this comment: T/Case failer is probably mostly due to oil level, ie to low on delivery. It is a proven T/case. Also, front Propshaft could be dodgy and the T/case gets blaimed

Rear diff: while it sint the best design, the Factory set up (ie back lash) is poor and inconsistant. Unfortunatly, the dealers are just swapping out the 3rd members for another off the shelf, set up from the same factory

Now you should not have to check oil levels on your brand new can, and certainly not the diff set up

I personally would check all oil levels on delivery and keep a close ear on the rear diff...

[newhue]

Perhaps it's just luck of the draw. I've had a tray full of little things from loose door handles, sticky ignition barrel, ill fitted rear springs, central locking not working doors, leaking, leaking, leaking, windows winding down on there own, ecu's, imobisers, starter motors and what ever else I cant recall but many have also had, and all by 60k. Some more than once. The clutch has gone, and now there looking at the transfer case. I haven't had a g box or diff replaced yet but fully expect buy the end of warranty a new g box and diff will have been fitted.

Great car on one hand, but a piece of crud at the same time. The wife has had a 97 Hyundai excel, and a 2003 ford focus, both cheap cars and virtually nill issues in both of the 130k km lives. Hand made may be the problem with a Defender, but LR's choice of componentry is very questionable I think in a new Defender.

[n plus one]

The bigger items are sad really, JC may be able to yes or no this comment: T/Case failer is probably mostly due to oil level, ie to low on delivery. It is a proven T/case. Also, front Propshaft could be dodgy and the T/case gets blaimed

Rear diff: while it sint the best design, the Factory set up (ie back lash) is poor and inconsistant. Unfortunatly, the dealers are just swapping out the 3rd members for another off the shelf, set up from the same factory

Now you should not have to check oil levels on your brand new can, and certainly not the diff set up

I personally would check all oil levels on delivery and keep a close ear on the rear diff...

Yep, I think oil was ultimately the issue with my T/C.

Having my time again I would do the following:

1. Have all service work performed by an independent LR specialist.

2. Only fit LR accessories during warranty period.

3. Get a thorough pre-end-of-warranty inspection done 3-6 months out.

I'd still buy another one though. Hope this is of some use to the OP.

[akelly]

Sorry Adam I'm a knocker, no you cant drive it from the show room floor without issues. 90% chance it will fail large or small unfortunately. I guess most failings aren't show stoppers though some of mine where.

90% chance you will love the truck, but there will always be 10% hanging over your head something stupid will fail on it. I know that is for any vehicle, but we are talking Land Rover here.

I love my truck, but get frustrated with the large ticket items that need replacing, often with the same stock as the first failed part. Why else do people have several diffs, g boxes, tranferes' replaced. LR are doing something wrong and warranty doesn't last past 3 years.
If you're old girl is going well but has a few km on it so what. It will leak like a puma and not go as spritely, but I'd say repair it don't replace it.

The $80K mine coats me sure would have got a nice Tdi sorted, even with replaced panels.

Thanks Jason - great to get some perspective from the other camp, so to speak.

The main thing with the current beast is... well, I don't really know! It does the job, needs a few little things sorted like getting cruise fitted, better insulation in the roof (heat) and floor (noise)... But I guess they are Defender issues, so what am I on about?

Honestly, I think I just want a new car... Although with the way things are going at the moment I might stick with this one (owes me nothing) and see what plays out with the mines over the next 12 months. There are better/other things to drop cash into right now...

Hmmm. You've all given me food for thought. As always, what a bloody great asset this forum is!

Cheers,

Adam

[Loubrey]

Touch wood as always when you make bold statements but...

My April 2010 Defender 90 has on 6 occasions done the 1500km trip between Perth and Karratha (all in one go with SWMBO sharing the driving), spent 14 months working and playing in the Pilbara and have been used as SWMBO's daily drive without fail.

In all this time I had a seal replaced and the high level brakelight was replaced, all on waranty and the immobiliser's spade terminal adjusted... and that's it.

It's never leaked other than a bit off the jetwash on the rear sliding window and all the drive components are functioning perfectly.

I've followed advice off the forum and addressed and prevented a few minor issues, including minor adjustments and extra cable ties around hoses and wiring in the engine bay. I always do a proper "pre-start" before long trips or a day's playing and I always keep an eye on oil and fluid levels myself and I replace those with the recommended grades if it looks a bit "used".

Maybe I've just been lucky with my car, but my Puma 90 is by a country mile the best Defender I've owned and or driven and that says a lot because it was always a long hard decision to sell any one of my previous 5!

Big thumbs up from me, especially if you're already a Defender owner and you know how to take care of them!

[PAT303]

Mines the same,I went from a 14 year old Tdi which I still have to the TDCi and have never regretted it,the TDCi is better in every way and while I'm a Tdi fan,my children grew up in mine life goes on and so do vehicles.Mine will be doing the Gibb river again before Xmas and then to Adelaide in Jan through the centre via the Talawana to windy corner and then to Warburton and across to the stuart and I don't have any worries about reliability.If a new defender is what you want buy a new defender. Pat

[newhue]

Adam,
don't let just my run put you off. I'm not good at sugar coating things and believe this forum is very good at saying how it is. There are others on here who have had issues, but there are also many who haven't.
Overall I like the 130 and its the only option in the market that fills my needs. It's just recently I have sat back and looked at what Defender owners sometimes consider normal crap from ownership, and concluded it just doesn't or shouldn't stack up.
Needless to say I'm not selling, just having a hate part of my relationship with my fender.
To be honest I'd keep the bucks in the bank and wait and see what's becoming of our economy in the next couple years. And as Pat has said, if the itch needs scratching, may as well.

[Scallops]

Adam,
don't let just my run put you off. I'm not good at sugar coating things and believe this forum is very good at saying how it is. There are others on here who have had issues, but there are also many who haven't.
Overall I like the 130 and its the only option in the market that fills my needs. It's just recently I have sat back and looked at what Defender owners sometimes consider normal crap from ownership, and concluded it just doesn't or shouldn't stack up.
Needless to say I'm not selling, just having a hate part of my relationship with my fender.
To be honest I'd keep the bucks in the bank and wait and see what's becoming of our economy in the next couple years. And as Pat has said, if the itch needs scratching, may as well.

:p Don't say I didn't warn you, Jason! :D

My Puma is now smack on 5 years old and has done 90,000km. My experience was lots of little items needing warranty work initially....then the common issues such as brake vacuum pump leaks etc....but for the last few years, Grover has been almost completely trouble free.....

I managed to get good Allianze extended warranty and have never paid a cent for any repair, and I had a rear main seal failure early this year (a minute leak that most folks wouldn't have even noticed). This, and my EGR valve failing (fixed with a Bruce Davis Performance flash upgrade) have been Grove's only recent issues....he has never broken down or left me stranded...ever. And I pretty much did drive mine out bush straight away...across the Simpson, Gunbarrel, through the Savannah and the Kimberleys.

Would I head off into the bush in the vehicle? Absolutely. I have a GPS EPIRB and an Iridium sat phone! :p

[newhue]

Yes I know I didn't listen, blinded by love.

Time will tell if it was the worst $3k I didn't spend when I placed the order for the 130. Already having spent 60k I was feeling scabby. Perhaps no surprise they don't offer extended warranty anymore though.

Just as a side note, a client of mine paid $10k to extend the warranty on his $500k Bentley. I still say LR are doing it wrong and arnt that good a value for what you get.

[PAT303]

Defenders are good value compared to the competition,on paper the lighter utes that have flooded the market sound like great value and have powerfull engines but they cannot do what they are designed to do,the triton chassis snaps are just one example. Pat

[justinc]

Defenders are good value compared to the competition,on paper the lighter utes that have flooded the market sound like great value and have powerfull engines but they cannot do what they are designed to do,the triton chassis snaps are just one example. Pat

here! here! agree 100%, there is not one 'ute' on the market to rival the 130/ 110 cc at present, they are all just rubbish in the strength dept.

and what's more, none with any character, either.

jc

[newhue]

I'm more so saying LR need a good kick in the bum. For a 130 60K and 3yr 100K km warranty. Triton half the price 5yr engine, and 10 year drive line and body warranty. And yes you can break a Defenders back if you overload it as well. I don't believe a Defender needs more power, the motor is suited to the drive line and had been the same largely since conception. But the price they charge for a body that's the same since 83, and how long have they known the p38 diff is not good, but keep chucking them in and asking top dollars.
I know the defender is superior in many ways and has sole, and a good family; but I think LR make us pay dearly for that. They use the fact that they sell there 20 000 Defenders as a good thing, they would sell more if they could make them, but prefer to manipulate the idea if you want a defender you just buy one, there is no bargaining, no run outs, no end of year sales. And with scarce dealers you have to largely get what you get, or wait, after all YOU want the Defender why should we stock them.
Then after you own it you finnish the dam thing off over the next 3 years. Honestly if we weren't so passionate, LR would fail regarding Defenders and I think they know that as well.

My new transfer case has been ordered, and will be fitted along with the egr valve, and a new water washer jet thingy. Go beyond they say.

[Naks]

here! here! agree 100%, there is not one 'ute' on the market to rival the 130/ 110 cc at present, they are all just rubbish in the strength dept.

Was there a string of cracked 130 chassis when used for commercial applications a couple of years ago? :angel:

[justinc]

Was there a string of cracked 130 chassis when used for commercial applications a couple of years ago? :angel:

yes i believe so, but the loads concerned and the duty cycle was pretty extreme, i was talking about the damage caused to tritons and couriers etc with relatively little hard work. they are just so light duty:mad:

one only has to look at the difference in chassis channels to be amazed at how weak the small jap utes are when actually called on to do some hard work:twisted:

jc

[Naks]

LR replaced the original clutch (2010) with a new one (version 2) in June 2012 after I complained at length about the rattle.

In December the new clutch started rattling very softly. I asked them to replace with the post-August 2012 version 3 clutch and they refused, saying they could not hear the rattle.

After I got back from holidays, I sent a strongly-worded email to LRSA's complaints department asking them why they want to wait for my clutch to fail (probably in the middle of nowhere) before replacing it.

They arranged for me to take it to LR Stellebosch for a proper assessment. Vehicle went in yesterday and they just called to say that after removing the clutch and visually inspecting it, they are indeed going to replace it.

So looks like a Puma's clutch only lasts between 2000 - 3000km :thumbsup:

[newhue]

hey whist on this topic, what do peoples immobilisers do.
My first version was best for me was best. Locked was locked, unlocked was unlocked, hop in and turn key and away she goes. Just like a normal or older car was.
My replaced version is similar, but if the car has sat for 1 minute I have to unlock the immobiliser again with the fob before turn key. If I don't it beep beeps at me. It does this with the key in or out of the ignition.
The dealer tells me it's working as it should, but it a pita as well.

[wpalmo]

Thanks Jason - great to get some perspective from the other camp, so to speak.

The main thing with the current beast is... well, I don't really know! It does the job, needs a few little things sorted like getting cruise fitted, better insulation in the roof (heat) and floor (noise)... But I guess they are Defender issues, so what am I on about?

Honestly, I think I just want a new car... Although with the way things are going at the moment I might stick with this one (owes me nothing) and see what plays out with the mines over the next 12 months. There are better/other things to drop cash into right now...

Hmmm. You've all given me food for thought. As always, what a bloody great asset this forum is!

Cheers,

Adam

I am very surprised that anyone would go out and buy a new Defender after reading this thread. I am a Land Rover fan but if I was you Adam I would stay well away from a Puma. Keep the 2a mate, it will be a better investment if you spend the money needed to make it how you want it rather than the best part of 60k on a Puma. At least you will know what you have after sorting out the 2a.

It is really satisfying when you pull up in something of the 2a's vintage next to the current crop of Defenders, Land Cruisers and Patrols on the Canning Stock Route, Gunbarrel etc. The 2a is the way to go and you can fix most things yourself too. Spend 10k on the 2a and you will have a brilliant Land Rover that will give you years more pleasure.

Regards Warrick.

[newhue]

I am very surprised that anyone would go out and buy a new Defender after reading this thread. I am a Land Rover fan but if I was you Adam I would stay well away from a Puma. Keep the 2a mate, it will be a better investment if you spend the money needed to make it how you want it rather than the best part of 60k on a Puma. At least you will know what you have after sorting out the 2a.

It is really satisfying when you pull up in something of the 2a's vintage next to the current crop of Defenders, Land Cruisers and Patrols on the Canning Stock Route, Gunbarrel etc. The 2a is the way to go and you can fix most things yourself too. Spend 10k on the 2a and you will have a brilliant Land Rover that will give you years more pleasure.

Regards Warrick.

I can see your point but
coils, air con, power ster, 100km/h cruise every where, conversation, music, dont cook with vehicle floor heat...well not to much. The Tdci does have good points when it's finally been worked through.
I can say the S1 gets me home everytime, but there always seems to be some tinkering along the way, or definitely when it gets home. I have mates who want to do the Simpson in a Series, if we do, I'm trucking mine to the start line.

[wpalmo]

107 S1 or 130 Tdci? Give me the 107 Series One every day. You are a lucky man Jason to own such a fabulous vehicle. I love Series One Land Rovers but I can see the attraction for the Tdci. I just think it is very poor for a vehicle that has been in production for over 60 years to end up at this point of it's evolution being as prone to annoying problems and dealer warranty claims as the Puma seems to be.

I do like the Defender because of it's heritage and strong visual links to the Series vehicles it has evolved from however I was extremely disappointed to read this thread. I don't think it is good enough to purchase a new vehicle in 2013 and have the sorts of problems that Puma owners are listing in the above comments. I don't read Toyota and Nissan forums but I would be surprised if owners of new Japanese 4wd's are consistently experiencing these types of issues with their, "still under warranty", vehicles. Happy to be proved wrong though.

It must be costing Land Rover a small fortune to fix these issues under warranty! Hopefully the last run of the current shaped Defenders have these recurring problems sorted out.

Regards Warrick.

[pawl]

Ummm, I am looking at upgrading my D1 to either a 06 or 09 defender and reading this thread concerns me, are these issues mentioned related to the Tdci or basically any defender? Is the Td5 a better option?

[the_preacher1973]

Ummm, I am looking at upgrading my D1 to either a 06 or 09 defender and reading this thread concerns me, are these issues mentioned related to the Tdci or basically any defender? Is the Td5 a better option?

Drive them both and see.TD5's have their own list of things to check (as do all cars).

As for reliability of the Puma, it appears most of the issues are build quality related and seem to be addressed by the first owner over the first couple of years. A 2009 should be pretty well sorted by now.

[LandRoverFan]

This is my first post on this forum, hi all.

Since seeing my first series LR when I was a kid I've been infatuated with them. Due to practicalities etc I've never owned one and instead have been a swb Suzuki owner for the last 20 years. I love the zuke but as I get older I'm lusting for a bit more space and feel that a 90 would be a great next vehicle for my needs.

I've always felt that you need to be willing to get dirty hands with a LR which suits me fine. I'm not concerned at all about minor isms but major failures are a concern.

I like the idea of new but will be buying used when the time comes. I have been thinking of a 90 between 2000-2009. What are the models in this age bracket like and what should I keep an eye out for?

[newhue]

107 S1 or 130 Tdci? Give me the 107 Series One every day. You are a lucky man Jason to own such a fabulous vehicle. I love Series One Land Rovers but I can see the attraction for the Tdci. I just think it is very poor for a vehicle that has been in production for over 60 years to end up at this point of it's evolution being as prone to annoying problems and dealer warranty claims as the Puma seems to be.

I do like the Defender because of it's heritage and strong visual links to the Series vehicles it has evolved from however I was extremely disappointed to read this thread. I don't think it is good enough to purchase a new vehicle in 2013 and have the sorts of problems that Puma owners are listing in the above comments. I don't read Toyota and Nissan forums but I would be surprised if owners of new Japanese 4wd's are consistently experiencing these types of issues with their, "still under warranty", vehicles. Happy to be proved wrong though.

It must be costing Land Rover a small fortune to fix these issues under warranty! Hopefully the last run of the current shaped Defenders have these recurring problems sorted out.

Regards Warrick.

yep Warrick I sometimes think LR would be hanging out to finally move defender to a robot built platform. In 2013 there isn't any real excuse for so many failings, and repeated one at that sometimes. But parts made in second world factories, assembled in first or second world production lines does seem to have it's problems. You would think a diff is worth fixing, not just replace it. The supply price is reflected in the actions of new Land Rover.

I dont read Japanese forum either, but I work with a whole gamete of tradies with all sorts of 4x4s. Sadly they have their fair share of warranty issues as well. Though it does seem to far less of them. It does strike me, and I've said it many times, at least LR fix the warranty claims, where as for many of these Jap brands, it's quite hard to get it resolved. Well that has been my experience in both caps regarding ownership; and watching on at work.

The days of building a long lasting product are well and truly gone. The required sophistication to comply with theoretical environment targets. Selling all sorts of wonder and adventure for the modern buyer locks them into a cycle of upgrading after warranty as few are prepared to try and hang on to such a vehicle ex warranty. It's been happening to Range Rovers for years, more recently Disco 2 onwards, it's now Defenders turn.

no money and no future in building cars that are simple, last for 50+ years, and can be fixed by the owner. Apparently the market doesn't want it.

[newhue]

This is my first post on this forum, hi all.

Since seeing my first series LR when I was a kid I've been infatuated with them. Due to practicalities etc I've never owned one and instead have been a swb Suzuki owner for the last 20 years. I love the zuke but as I get older I'm lusting for a bit more space and feel that a 90 would be a great next vehicle for my needs.

I've always felt that you need to be willing to get dirty hands with a LR which suits me fine. I'm not concerned at all about minor isms but major failures are a concern.

I like the idea of new but will be buying used when the time comes. I have been thinking of a 90 between 2000-2009. What are the models in this age bracket like and what should I keep an eye out for?

99 to 06 are 2.5lt Td5's, LR designed motor, BMW owned company
07 to 11 are 2.4 Tcdi (puma) Ford motor, Ford owned company roughly. Tata bought Ford out 2010 I think.
12 to 13 are 2.2 Tdci (puma) Ford motor, Tata owned company.

As been mentioned Td5's have there own issues, like oil in the wiring loom for one. Most of the issues have been rectified by previous owners, and I don't know for sure if there many in the first place. Still good to have an idea before you by.

Tdci, well, basically the same truck as the previous models since 1983, but has a common rail donk and six speed box, and more refined in the cabin. Not a bad truck but unfortunately it has had it's share of build slackness here and there. Some have had very little, others have had quite a bit. Again it's most likely that it's issues have been sorted under warranty.

[LandRoverFan]

99-06 TD5 sounds like the go for me. How does oil get into the loom? Have these had the same diff and transfer issues?

[Babs]

Talking about Jap 4by's the 200 series LC had that problem of burning a couple of litres of engine oil before next services were due. It was that bad and Toyota could not resolve it that they said it was normal. Yada yada yada.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[slovenia]

2,2 2012, black barn 110 - 22500 km without mistake, it is much better than my ex. 2,4 2007 DCPU but it is still car for entuziasts.:D

[newhue]

99-06 TD5 sounds like the go for me. How does oil get into the loom? Have these had the same diff and transfer issues?

up to 02 Defers ran a Salisbury diff. A solid performer in all applications except lacked a little bit of ground clearance, hence the nick name "plough".

from 03 to current Defer's have had a P38 diff. It's not terrible, but not as well designed as the previous. From what I understand it's the spacing between the bearings for the pinion gear that are a bit close. This allows the gear to flex under regular heavy loads like towing or hard touring or use with a full rig perhaps.

Both diffs will strip flanges on the wheel, and wear axels if not lubed regularly or run in oil. This has been a LR thing since the idea was coined on a beach.....back in 1947.

Transfere cases in Td5 and Tdci are soild, it an LT230 for reference.

As for the rest of your Td5 queries, do a few searches like oil in loom, egr blanking, Td5 overheating.

A decent Td5 can fetch up to 28K I think, and like most things you get what you pay for.

[2stroke]

Both diffs will strip flanges on the wheel, and wear axels if not lubed regularly or run in oil. This has been a LR thing since the idea was coined on a beach.....back in 1947.
Though it really only became a problem about the time the rear discs arrived on the defenders, some dill thought a seal had to go on the axle, then we all had to remove it to let the oil onto the spline.:D

[spenthebro]

was looking at buying either a 2010 Defender 90 or a brand new MY13 model the other day. the doors on the 8000 Km old 2010 model were loose fitting and closed with a worringly hollow sound, often taking two attempts to shut.

the almost brand new demo car's were much easier to shut and 'seemed' to close more cleanly.

has the defender's build quality been on the increase.

surely 8000 km wouldnt be the difference.

Just a thought.;)

[Grappler]

My 40 + year love affair with Land Rovers is becoming a little strained since buying a new 2012 Defender. I’ve always owned and loved at least one Land Rover since I learned to drive, and have 5 at the moment.

I’ve been following this thread and had decided to bite my tongue. I didn’t want to appear a “knocker or naysayer”, but today was the last straw.

All these problems have been resolved under warranty, before 5000km

Leaking coolant- screw cap replaced
Leaking coolant- plastic tank replaced
Corrosion in chassis- repaired and painted
Rear tailgate jammed shut- latches adjusted
Front output shaft seal leak- solved after 2 attempts
Gaps in bodywork- mastic applied
Rear diff growling- diff replaced
Seat belt recall- bolts replaced
Front torsion bar fell off (almost a showstopper) - nuts and bushes replaced
Gearbox removed to solve oil leaks
Hose clamps incorrectly installed- hose replaced and clamps re-orientated (this common fault was detected before failure with advise from this forum)
Damaged wiring resulting from gearbox work- repaired
Loose/missing nuts bolts sills- replaced
Front hub leak- solved after 4 attempts (2 seal replacements and 2 new hub assemblies)
HCPU tub not mounted squarely and pounding on rear of cabin –adjusted

None of these were showstoppers, not stranded, but were inconvenient. I have traveled over 2000km alone delivering the vehicle to the dealer 350 km away (700 round trip) for this warranty work.

But today a show stopper-stranded

Engine symbol on dash and then limp mode.

Checked under bonnet, fluids all good, no overheating, no hoses fallen off that I could see.
Called the 1800 LR assist line and put me through the lock - unlock sequence without clearing the fault. They advised it needed transport to the dealer for diagnosis. Also advised driving in limp mode voids warranty
3 hrs later the flat bed arrived for the long journey of shame.

Hopefully we will iron out the problems during the remaining 2 years warranty and it will be as reliable as my 1997 TDi 300. She has her old spot back in the shed tonight!

[Babs]

Grapplers post :o :o :o

I'm sincerely sorry for you, I hope this comes good. Keep notes of everything days, dates, dealer comments etc. then pass it onto LR Australia.

I might start checking over mine, you have me worried.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[newhue]

My 40 + year love affair with Land Rovers is becoming a little strained since buying a new 2012 Defender. I’ve always owned and loved at least one Land Rover since I learned to drive, and have 5 at the moment.

I’ve been following this thread and had decided to bite my tongue. I didn’t want to appear a “knocker or naysayer”, but today was the last straw.

All these problems have been resolved under warranty, before 5000km

Leaking coolant- screw cap replaced
Leaking coolant- plastic tank replaced
Corrosion in chassis- repaired and painted
Rear tailgate jammed shut- latches adjusted
Front output shaft seal leak- solved after 2 attempts
Gaps in bodywork- mastic applied
Rear diff growling- diff replaced
Seat belt recall- bolts replaced
Front torsion bar fell off (almost a showstopper) - nuts and bushes replaced
Gearbox removed to solve oil leaks
Hose clamps incorrectly installed- hose replaced and clamps re-orientated (this common fault was detected before failure with advise from this forum)
Damaged wiring resulting from gearbox work- repaired
Loose/missing nuts bolts sills- replaced
Front hub leak- solved after 4 attempts (2 seal replacements and 2 new hub assemblies)
HCPU tub not mounted squarely and pounding on rear of cabin –adjusted

None of these were showstoppers, not stranded, but were inconvenient. I have traveled over 2000km alone delivering the vehicle to the dealer 350 km away (700 round trip) for this warranty work.

But today a show stopper-stranded

Engine symbol on dash and then limp mode.

Checked under bonnet, fluids all good, no overheating, no hoses fallen off that I could see.
Called the 1800 LR assist line and put me through the lock - unlock sequence without clearing the fault. They advised it needed transport to the dealer for diagnosis. Also advised driving in limp mode voids warranty
3 hrs later the flat bed arrived for the long journey of shame.

Hopefully we will iron out the problems during the remaining 2 years warranty and it will be as reliable as my 1997 TDi 300. She has her old spot back in the shed tonight!

Good on you Grapler for finally having a say. I do think there a few on here who bite there tongue. I think your view of it becoming a hassle free car will come true. I have been quite critical of mine but on the whole it's a good reliable car. The first night of ownership of mine I discovered the inner rear spring was not seated properly. Quick chat with a tire lever sorted it.
But it seems so true LR owners finish the last 10% of the Defender, unfortunately. It really pays to run a spanner over everything loosing a weekend to check over the new car. The neighbours find t amusing I have to say.


was looking at buying either a 2010 Defender 90 or a brand new MY13 model the other day. the doors on the 8000 Km old 2010 model were loose fitting and closed with a worringly hollow sound, often taking two attempts to shut.

the almost brand new demo car's were much easier to shut and 'seemed' to close more cleanly.

has the defender's build quality been on the increase.

surely 8000 km wouldnt be the difference.

Just a thought.;)

That hollow sound is normal, well on mine anyway. I only get it when I tend to slam the front doors though. On the other hand my doors take two goes to shut if not done initially with intention. It's a hard action to get right, to shut once, not slam it, and getting the duh sound.

Defender also seem to self adjust doors. Two of mine have started rubbing for no reason, all bolts seemed tight. A relaxing of the lock, then shut the door, then retighten fixes the rubbing. Also to tight and the rubbers squeak.
Have heard on here sound deadening sheet inside the door if the duh fix. But for me there is too much window in there so I live with it.

[BilboBoggles]

Hi All,

I've been reviewing the threads about late model defender issues with interest. I'm planning to buy a new one in Jan/Feb but starting to wonder if that's such a good idea.

I have a 2000 model 130 at the moment, it has had it's share of minor issues. Generally it's very good though, and I do a lot of km (an average work trip will clock up 3000km).

What's the general feeling about the latest model - could I drive one out of the showroom and head into the wilderness? Mainly touring style work, getting from A-B including remote tracks and whatnot, but not rockcrawling or across the Simpson.

Cheers,

Adam

I've bought 3 new defenders over the years - the first two are a 2003 and a 2009, both have had their share of faults. The first one (TD5) spent a total of 9 months in the workshop over 17 visits to fix a variety of issues including 3 new diffs, complete body strip down to resolve poor panels and water leaks. The first dealer was incompetent, about half of those visits were to rectify things they broke on the previous visit. I changed dealers and found a good one with a good service manager, and things changed, one visit and all issues were resolved. I've still got that TD5, it's done 200,000 now and I'll keep it till it dies. I did just spend nearly $7,000 on a service though - but that did include new clutch, flywheel, power steering pump and harmonic balancer, things that tend to wear out on a TD5. But it's never stranded me, and in fact that last huge bill was more preventative maintenance, the clutch was only about 10% worn, the flywheel was knackered though.


The second one was a 2009 model. This one tested my patience to the limits, again it spent over 6 months in total in the workshop, water leaks, and due to a faulty tank breather it sucked in water and killed the fuel system. I had to do all the research to prove to Land Rover that it was not the fuel itself (I buy from one local servo who I know), but the breather, including showing them photos of how the stupid breather was located behind the rear wheel, directly in the road spray area. That episode I swear took a few months off my life - they were going to charge me $11,000 dollars for that repair. I think it ended up a good vehicle - but I never really trusted it after that. IT also had three diffs before finding one that would last more than a few thousand k.s.

I just sold it, and have bought a MY13 Limited Edition Defender. Time will tell how crap this one will be, and how much support I get from the dealers. I'm sure I'll swear off another new land rover in the first year or two, as I did with the past two.

I think there is term for this - masochist.

[wpalmo]

I've bought 3 new defenders over the years - the first two are a 2003 and a 2009, both have had their share of faults. The first one (TD5) spent a total of 9 months in the workshop over 17 visits to fix a variety of issues including 3 new diffs, complete body strip down to resolve poor panels and water leaks. The first dealer was incompetent, about half of those visits were to rectify things they broke on the previous visit. I changed dealers and found a good one with a good service manager, and things changed, one visit and all issues were resolved. I've still got that TD5, it's done 200,000 now and I'll keep it till it dies. I did just spend nearly $7,000 on a service though - but that did include new clutch, flywheel, power steering pump and harmonic balancer, things that tend to wear out on a TD5. But it's never stranded me, and in fact that last huge bill was more preventative maintenance, the clutch was only about 10% worn, the flywheel was knackered though.


The second one was a 2009 model. This one tested my patience to the limits, again it spent over 6 months in total in the workshop, water leaks, and due to a faulty tank breather it sucked in water and killed the fuel system. I had to do all the research to prove to Land Rover that it was not the fuel itself (I buy from one local servo who I know), but the breather, including showing them photos of how the stupid breather was located behind the rear wheel, directly in the road spray area. That episode I swear took a few months off my life - they were going to charge me $11,000 dollars for that repair. I think it ended up a good vehicle - but I never really trusted it after that. IT also had three diffs before finding one that would last more than a few thousand k.s.

I just sold it, and have bought a MY13 Limited Edition Defender. Time will tell how crap this one will be, and how much support I get from the dealers. I'm sure I'll swear off another new land rover in the first year or two, as I did with the past two.

I think there is term for this - masochist.

If you are not a masochist then you are a very patient man and a true Land Rover diehard BilboBoggles. I think even after the problems that you had with the TD5 most people would be reluctant to have gone back for more. I wonder if anyone from the Land Rover Australia Executive reads these stories from people who are genuine Land Rover owners. After reading so many first hand tales of woe from owners who are also fans, I don't think I would take the chance and buy a new Defender. I am sure that I am not on my own with that statement. You buy a new vehicle to have reliability and a warranty that should be no fuss. Land Rover seem to be absent in both these fundamental areas.

It is a real shame because I would like to buy one of the last current shaped Defenders before it is no more however as much as I am a fan I don't want the sort of pain and suffering that seem to go with owning a new Defender. It is a far cry from the reputation these vehicles have come from since their heroic efforts in the 50's in being a major workhorse in building the Snowy Mountain Scheme to the military operations the vehicles have been used in by the ADF. Not sure how the slogan Best4x4xfar stacks up these days.

Regards Warrick.

[Loubrey]

On the flipside, my 2010 Defender 90 (second one to be registered in WA following their re-launch in April 2010) has had it's 6 standard services to date and one output shaft seal replaced on recall (done during one of the services).

Left hand door striker plate was adjusted once on and Land Rover replaced the diff oils on my request after a particular long trip.

Maybe I've just been lucky (holding firmly onto the wooden desk top here), but I've never been left stranded by a Land Rover in 16 years and building roads accross the world none of mine has had particularly easy lives.

I don't deny that there are lemons out there, but my last project had quite a number of brand new mine spec vehicles (none Land Rover obviously) returned on flat beds with a long list of different issues.

Cheers,

Lou

[BilboBoggles]

If you are not a masochist then you are a very patient man and a true Land Rover diehard BilboBoggles. I think even after the problems that you had with the TD5 most people would be reluctant to have gone back for more. I wonder if anyone from the Land Rover Australia Executive reads these stories from people who are genuine Land Rover owners. After reading so many first hand tales of woe from owners who are also fans, I don't think I would take the chance and buy a new Defender. I am sure that I am not on my own with that statement. You buy a new vehicle to have reliability and a warranty that should be no fuss. Land Rover seem to be absent in both these fundamental areas.

It is a real shame because I would like to buy one of the last current shaped Defenders before it is no more however as much as I am a fan I don't want the sort of pain and suffering that seem to go with owning a new Defender. It is a far cry from the reputation these vehicles have come from since their heroic efforts in the 50's in being a major workhorse in building the Snowy Mountain Scheme to the military operations the vehicles have been used in by the ADF. Not sure how the slogan Best4x4xfar stacks up these days.

Regards Warrick.

Warwick - I think the KEY thing is to find the right dealer, I reckon my experience would not have happened if I'd started with a competent dealer. I've now tried every dealer in Melbourne and have found the only one left I would trust. If it was not for this one dealer I would not have gone back. Since switching to this dealer my experience has been COMPLETELY different. That's why I went back.

It's not so much the issues, I think those exist on any new car - including japanese cars. IT's how the dealers fix them, and how many times it takes them. (What sort of retarded mechanic would swap a slightly clunking diff for one with a damage crown wheel, that makes a huge knocking sound, and then hand it back as fixed?). I know many people who have bought holden HSV's or Utes and have been driven insanse by silly little problems too.

All of the issues I have had have been minor and non terminal - just needed a mechanic who was capable of fixing it without breaking 3 other things, or using silastic to glue shut flappy vents etc....

Once you've driven a defender or indeed any proper Land Rover product with a decent chassis - you'll understand - you cannot consider any other vehicle. My old TD5 defender has character, very few other vehicles out there do. The basic vehicle itself is fantastic, I reckon there is little out there that can compete with a defender.


So that's why I went back.

[newhue]

Definitely agree on a decent dealer. My local actually lied to me regarding the acceptance of LR and chipping a new vehicle. And also mucked me around on delivery dates. Found the vehicle i bought at another dealer who has been awesome. Oddly enough when my car did get flat bedded it went to my local who did nothing to inspire a review of faith, and did't fill the car either.

This car has given me more grief than any other car I have previously owned, but it would be the first car I would go to if I had to replace it. Some how the issues they can bring get forgiven when it rolls again and that smile comes back.

[BilboBoggles]

We are not alone! Lemon laws protect you | carsguide.com.au, (http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-news/lemon_story)
read the comments

[Grappler]

postscript from my previuos post "Love lost"


Just got the diagnosis on the "showstopper"

They found the turbo hose was split.
Should get hose replaced today and flat bedded back tomorrow.

Not what you would expect from a 10 month old vehicle that has only done 15K.

I think a will buy a roll of gaffa tape in case it splits again away from the highway!

[isuzutoo-eh]

There's a type of tape commonly referred to as 'Rescue Tape', it is a self amalgamating silicon tape that is meant for fixing split hoses of pretty much all types. Much better than gaffa tape!

[isuzurover]

here! here! agree 100%, there is not one 'ute' on the market to rival the 130/ 110 cc at present, they are all just rubbish in the strength dept.

and what's more, none with any character, either.

jc

Depends what you want to use it for.

The 110/130 cc certainly has the most space and best suspension design of any cc ute on the market - and I believe the best payload. However it also has the weakest rear axle and is at (or close to) the bottom of the list in power and engine capacity stakes (and the 130cc would definitely be bottom in power-weight surely).
Plus - it almost goes without saying - the worst fit and finish...

[Summiitt]

Sorry guys, can't agree with you totally, I run 4 defender utes for my earth moving business...in the last 12 yrs the only time one of them stopped was a stripped rear axle on a tdi with 425,000km...locked centre diff and he drove home. We do a lot of forestry/ nat parks and rural works often with no phone coverage. My employees arnt land rover people, but the utes surprise them when they go up tracks that most people do on weekends with lockers and a lift kit...they do it in a bog standard ute with mud tyres, 600l of diesel on the tray and around 300-500'kg of tools and crap on the back. I've driven land cruisers, patrols and hiluxs off road with national parks in a previous life, in the bush, the defenders as an overall investment are hard to beat... As for breaking diffs, I've tried bloody hard and never had an issue.

[wally]

Maybe we have short memories. The Tdis and Td5s that we now hold in such high regard were also reporting long lists of faults in their first couple of years of ownership. With Tdis it was premature timing belt failure and output shaft spline wear. Mine needed a new gearbox under warranty, along with a long list of other things including three starter motors. Td5s had oil in the loom, oil pump failure, head dowel issues, warped exhaust manifolds, etc, etc. Whenever a new model comes along we all whinge about it as though it's the worst thing that ever happened, and elevate the previous model to legend status. It happened when the Td5 arrived and it's happening now. I'm not going to make excuses for these problems - I just don't think anything has really changed. It has always been thus. Give it a couple of years of inconvenience, stress and maybe a breakdown here and there, and you finish up with a good vehicle. That's certainly not for everyone but I'd go through it again.

[jplambs]

Warwick - I think the KEY thing is to find the right dealer, I reckon my experience would not have happened if I'd started with a competent dealer. I've now tried every dealer in Melbourne and have found the only one left I would trust. If it was not for this one dealer I would not have gone back. Since switching to this dealer my experience has been COMPLETELY different. That's why I went back.

It's not so much the issues, I think those exist on any new car - including japanese cars. IT's how the dealers fix them, and how many times it takes them. (What sort of retarded mechanic would swap a slightly clunking diff for one with a damage crown wheel, that makes a huge knocking sound, and then hand it back as fixed?). I know many people who have bought holden HSV's or Utes and have been driven insanse by silly little problems too.

All of the issues I have had have been minor and non terminal - just needed a mechanic who was capable of fixing it without breaking 3 other things, or using silastic to glue shut flappy vents etc....

Once you've driven a defender or indeed any proper Land Rover product with a decent chassis - you'll understand - you cannot consider any other vehicle. My old TD5 defender has character, very few other vehicles out there do. The basic vehicle itself is fantastic, I reckon there is little out there that can compete with a defender.


So that's why I went back.

I think your right Bilbo, my 130 hit 16000 kms yesterday and to date I've had no problems beside an axle seal that let oil out to the hub. (That's a good problem in my book :) ) I booked mine in at 10,000 kms to the dealer in Millicent S.A. (who I bought it from) and asked them to fix a couple of things I had noticed. When I went to pick it up the mechanic had found a number of other little things that needed attention (bolts that needed retensioning, etc) but they were all done without being asked. I had thought that my rear diff was developing a problem however the issue was the flange bolts at the end of the drive shaft didn't have the correct tension and were allowing some movement. I had been so worried about the diff because of all the comments on AULRO that I had concentrated on that and hadn't noticed what I should have further up the system.

Hayden (the head mechanic down there) said that he sees it on all the new defenders at about 10,000. It doesn't matter how tight they do the bolts up at pre-delivery there is some bedding in that occurs between then and the first service. I do wonder how many of these issues people have wouldn't be there if Landrover did a 3000km checkup on the new vehicles similar to what Toyota do.

Interestingly I asked Hayden if they had had any diffs that needed replacing, his comment was that although they were aware of issues across Aus with the diffs they had only replaced one and there was nothing wrong with it. A customer was experiencing vibration through the vehicle and on the advice of LRA they replaced the diff. It turned out to be a harmonic issue caused by some sliders that were on the vehicle.

My experience with the local dealer so far from sales through to follow up service has been excellent. To the point were if I didn't service my other vehicles myself I'd take them down there to be serviced as well.