500mm Lift and advise on extras

[Chilly]

Hi,

I have a Terrafirma 50mm lift kit to fit to the TD5 Defender, 1999.

I was wondering what do others fit too.
E.g,

Dislocation cones?
New Shock Absorber struts?
Brake flexible Pipes?
Etc etc.

Whilst they are apart might as well add what would be fitted later.

Looking at using for a tourer and off road play.

Cheers,

Chilly

[the_preacher1973]

Did the kit come with lowered bump stops? Also which particular shocks did you get? I believe the majority of the Terrafirma shocks have a closed length significantly longer than the standard shocks. If you don't lower your bump stops you risk damaging the shocks and they will fail prematurely.

I have specs for the majority of the Terrafirma shocks but it's on my work computer. I'll post it up tomorrow if you'd like.

[Chilly]

Just springs and shocks.

Should be medium load and pro shocks TF120,121.

[Drover]

That's a lot of lift 500 mm....ha ha just being checky:D

I have 50mm lift with TF pro sports + 50 on the front

- brake lines are easy long enough.
- 50mm springs with 50mm shocks should not require dislocation cones.
- stock shock tower will be fine. TF tube towers are nice but not essential.

Cheers
Grant

[Didge]

better to be checky than cheeky, eh Drover? heheheee
I was thinking the same but you beat me to it :)

[chook73]

That's a lot of lift 500 mm....ha ha just being checky:D

I have 50mm lift with TF pro sports + 50 on the front

- brake lines are easy long enough.
- 50mm springs with 50mm shocks should not require dislocation cones.
- stock shock tower will be fine. TF tube towers are nice but not essential.

Cheers
Grant

Well I opened the thread to see how someone was going to do a 500mm lift! :eek:

[Chilly]

I spotted the deliberate mistake...did not know how to edit thou!!!

So, going on nice things to fit whilst doing this...TF tubes...what else would you recommend?

Where would you get TF tubes from?

Thanks,

Chilly

[chook73]

You need to work out what you want from your suspension, my advise is to establish your needs and loads and work from there.

If you are going for a tourer you will probably not need dislocation cones and turrets but you will probably want airbags if your going for medium springs.

[the_preacher1973]

Just springs and shocks.

Should be medium load and pro shocks TF120,121.

Sorry for not getting back sooner but work was madness yesterday.

You can see the open and closed lengths of the TF120 and 121 shocks here: 4x4 Shop - Terrafirma Sttdmpare (http://www.4x4shop.se/tf_shocks.php)

So the compressed length of the TF120 front shock is 395mm. This compares with the compressed length of a standard front shock of 330mm. Therefore the TF120 shock will bottom out 65mm before the standard shock. If you fit the TF shocks without either lowering the bump stops or raising the shock towers you risk prematurely damaging the shock. Similar story on the back end.

[goingbush]

500mm Lift =

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/





.

[redrovertdi]

After my 50mm lift i thought all was good, then it started destoying radius arm to chassis bushes, i replaced with poly bushes and they disentergarated in approx 2 weeks, then britpart/****part rubber bushes that lasted less than a week, then genuine land rover which didnt brake but squished out of shape, also fitted superpro castor correction bushes which didnt solve any thing. A year later[of constantly searching/fiddling] i fitted cranked radius arms and trailing arms and couldnt believe the difference in driving/riding/steering and noise that they made, mate with a county did the same thing with in a week after riding in mine

[Drover]

After my 50mm lift i thought all was good, then it started destoying radius arm to chassis bushes, i replaced with poly bushes and they disentergarated in approx 2 weeks, then britpart/****part rubber bushes that lasted less than a week, then genuine land rover which didnt brake but squished out of shape, also fitted superpro castor correction bushes which didnt solve any thing. A year later[of constantly searching/fiddling] i fitted cranked radius arms and trailing arms and couldnt believe the difference in driving/riding/steering and noise that they made, mate with a county did the same thing with in a week after riding in mine


Just did mine on the weekend.

New TF cranked rear trailing arms.

New TF caster correction front radius arm.

New TF heavy duty rear 50mm springs.

Front arm not only correct steering caster but also align TC and front diff flanges.

All good now.

[rick130]

After my 50mm lift i thought all was good, then it started destoying radius arm to chassis bushes, i replaced with poly bushes and they disentergarated in approx 2 weeks, then britpart/****part rubber bushes that lasted less than a week, then genuine land rover which didnt brake but squished out of shape, also fitted superpro castor correction bushes which didnt solve any thing. A year later[of constantly searching/fiddling] i fitted cranked radius arms and trailing arms and couldnt believe the difference in driving/riding/steering and noise that they made, mate with a county did the same thing with in a week after riding in mine

You didn't fit the right Super Pro bush.

There are two versions for the front radius arms, one that mimics the OE bush in shape, another that uses a radial groove in the front bush and tapered edges in the back one.

These ones work brilliantly, a 2" lift on a Deefer is sweet FA in the scheme of things.

The Super Pro rear trailing arm to chassis bush are the best bushes available for that spot IMNSHO.

[rick130]

Sorry for not getting back sooner but work was madness yesterday.

You can see the open and closed lengths of the TF120 and 121 shocks here: 4x4 Shop - Terrafirma Sttdmpare (http://www.4x4shop.se/tf_shocks.php)

So the compressed length of the TF120 front shock is 395mm. This compares with the compressed length of a standard front shock of 330mm. Therefore the TF120 shock will bottom out 65mm before the standard shock. If you fit the TF shocks without either lowering the bump stops or raising the shock towers you risk prematurely damaging the shock. Similar story on the back end.

God yes, those fronts will destroy themselves at full bump.

A lot of us back in the day were/are running TLC 80 Series Koni's (part # 82-2385) and they are fully compressed @ 370mm.

Without raising the towers they go metal to metal.

Even with raising the towers you need to allow allow for a full 20mm of bump stop compression or they'll still go metal to metal.

Been there, done that too, and had to rebuild them (again) mainly as I was getting way too cute in trying to maximise droop.

[LowRanger]

And some of us run much longer shocks with the correct height raised towers,and dont have any problems with shocks topping out;)

[rick130]

And some of us run much longer shocks with the correct height raised towers,and dont have any problems with shocks topping out;)

Yep, and long springs starting to dislocate.

[the_preacher1973]

And some of us run much longer shocks with the correct height raised towers,and dont have any problems with shocks topping out;)

Hence my statement "If you fit the TF shocks without either lowering the bump stops or raising the shock towers you risk prematurely damaging the shock. "

[LowRanger]

Yep, and long springs starting to dislocate.

Well mine don't dislocate,but they are long:p

[lambrover]

As lowranger has said if you run the correct coils with the shocks you won't dislocate. My springs don't dislocate either, coil free height front 500mm and rear is 550mm.

My coils are from suspension stuff, they are made at dobinsons and lowranger from memory has Nissan Patrol coils in the rear, I forget what the fronts are though.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[rick130]

As lowranger has said if you run the correct coils with the shocks you won't dislocate. My springs don't dislocate either, coil free height front 500mm and rear is 550mm.

My coils are from suspension stuff, they are made at dobinsons and lowranger from memory has Nissan Patrol coils in the rear, I forget what the fronts are though.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

So, your coil free length is nearly 20" ?

What rate ?

and what ride height ?

What stroke damper ?

How much actual droop are you getting ?

Not trying to be a smart arse, just curious.

As I said, mine starts to, it doesn't come off the seat.

Of course, if I ran stock stroke dampers I could have stupidly stiff springs not unseat too, so saying the correct spring won't dislocate is a little silly as it depends on what ride height you are after and what the whole suspension system is designed around, eg. Wayne's is a weekend/play hard Deefer, mine is an everyday/work/do everything vehicle so has more compromises involved, which brings me back to the point we were trying to make, you can't just bolt something in and pray it will work without considering everything else too.

[lambrover]

So, your coil free length is nearly 20" ?

What rate ?

and what ride height ?

What stroke damper ?

How much actual droop are you getting ?

Not trying to be a smart arse, just curious.

As I said, mine starts to, it doesn't come off the seat.

Of course, if I ran stock stroke dampers I could have stupidly stiff springs not unseat too, so saying the correct spring won't dislocate is a little silly as it depends on what ride height you are after and what the whole suspension system is designed around, eg. Wayne's is a weekend/play hard Deefer, mine is an everyday/work/do everything vehicle so has more compromises involved, which brings me back to the point we were trying to make, you can't just bolt something in and pray it will work without considering everything else too.

Not sure on the rate, I got them made through suspension stuff, I gave him the list of accessories on the vehicle and had them made. They are tapper ground progressive coils, that's how I get the larger free length so not to dislocate. The shocks are TF sports +5's, so I think that is 11 inch of stroke.

I don't have any pics of my 130 flexed only my 110 with the same coils in it.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[rick130]

I thought I remembered you saying in a past post they were variable rate coils.

The front dampers I have ATM are a 10" stroke, but I have them setup to get the very last little bit of droop, ie. they are safe @ 20mm of bump stop compression, just. (They weren't at 15mm compression :()
The towers are raised to the absolute minimum.

[LowRanger]

I have long linear rate springs in the front of mine,and tapered ground wire progressive springs in the rear.I have found a marked difference in handling between the linear springs I have now,and the ramp progressives I used to have in the front.:)

[uninformed]

Im sure there is an on-road reason for progressive in the front....maybe the weight transfer under braking??? But to me, in a very basic view, the front isnt changing much, where as the rear can be empty or loaded.

yes when loading, not 100% goes on the rear axle, but I figure most does...

[uninformed]

I have long linear rate springs in the front of mine,and tapered ground wire progressive springs in the rear.I have found a marked difference in handling between the linear springs I have now,and the ramp progressives I used to have in the front.:)

do you know rate and free length of rear?

[LowRanger]

I have had them in for quite a while now,and I did have the specs written down somewhere,but they seem to be filed in a place where I won't lose them:eek:

I think they were about 520mm free length and 320lb,which suits the weight I normally carry,which includes an aftermarket wheel carrier and a 35" tyre with steel rim.They are actually Patrol springs,but conveniently are correct for the weight and ride height I required;)

[rick130]

Im sure there is an on-road reason for progressive in the front....maybe the weight transfer under braking??? But to me, in a very basic view, the front isnt changing much, where as the rear can be empty or loaded.

yes when loading, not 100% goes on the rear axle, but I figure most does...

There are a couple of ways you can wind a variable rate spring.

1. Have it so that the soft rate/s are coil bound under normal load/ride height and the car is normally running on the linear rate section.

This gives you a consistent feel in most normal situations and keeps the wheels loaded at full articulation rather than dislocate.

2. Have the variable rate continue into the normal working range of the spring.

This can give you a nice, soft ride and good compliance at smaller spring displacements and ramp up the rate on bigger hits.
This can also feel a little less 'consistent' in roll/pitch/squat at some times.

Feel can make a huge difference for the driver too, when I was racing we never, ever ran rising rate suspension or variable rate springs, it was too much of a variation/change in feel for the driver.
It can also be a little tricky to valve a damper for it too, as the force change is linear.
Having said that, I can see a big advantage with using variable rate springs for load carrying such as in the back of a 110 or 130 ute.

I was going to get some custom (my specs) variable rate coils wound for mine, but I'm pretty settled on air bags instead now.

[uninformed]

Can you email me details of your custom springs and who you were going to get to manufacture them

[LowRanger]

Rick
The feel is something I really noticed,when I went from my progressive front spring to my Linear rate front springs.The 110 handles like a barge at the best of times,but with the progressive springs in the front,if you were travelling around bends,particularly diminishing radius bends,I used to always feel like I had to make continual adjustments to the steering,now this is on a vehicle that doesn't have anti sway bars.Fitting the linear springs,and travelling the same roads,I am now able to travel at a higher speed and not have to make continual feedback adjustments at the steering wheel.
And when you guys have got rid of all the bugs out of fitting bags to the rear,then I too will go that way:D Just not keen on pinching a bag on a big hill climb in the middle of nowhere on a big side slope,and having to dive out on the bump stop:eek:

[rick130]

Can you email me details of your custom springs and who you were going to get to manufacture them

Well, I haven't gone ahead with them as the one company I know that can do taper wire variable rate springs also used to custom wind 2.25" race car springs for me and they were $#!# :angel:

The rates were absolutely spot on but they'd take weird sets, no pair were ever the same height, some would lean over drunkenly, etc.

Not something you want when you are trying to be dead accurate with corner weight's etc. and speed is of the essence in testing/practice/qualifying.

You couldn't just wind a spring perch up to Xmm, you had to actually corner weight the car to get it right :(

[uninformed]

Rick
The feel is something I really noticed,when I went from my progressive front spring to my Linear rate front springs.The 110 handles like a barge at the best of times,but with the progressive springs in the front,if you were travelling around bends,particularly diminishing radius bends,I used to always feel like I had to make continual adjustments to the steering,now this is on a vehicle that doesn't have anti sway bars.Fitting the linear springs,and travelling the same roads,I am now able to travel at a higher speed and not have to make continual feedback adjustments at the steering wheel.
And when you guys have got rid of all the bugs out of fitting bags to the rear,then I too will go that way:D Just not keen on pinching a bag on a big hill climb in the middle of nowhere on a big side slope,and having to dive out on the bump stop:eek:

I wonder if the cornering feel you speak of and continual adjustment required was due to different amounts of body roll during, and hence axle roll steer constantly changing...

[LowRanger]

I wonder if the cornering feel you speak of and continual adjustment required was due to different amounts of body roll during, and hence axle roll steer constantly changing...

Serg

I am pretty sure it was,hence part of the reason I went to linear rate front springs.I also notice it offroad as well,where I now know how the vehicle will react in certain situations,particularly when rockcrawling and finding that the vehicle may slip and lurch upon the wheels landing,the feeling is more uniform,and helps to reduce those butt clenching moments:p

[rick130]

[snip]
and helps to reduce those butt clenching moments:p

I thought that's why we did it ? :angel:

I used to tell people that 4x4ing in low/low was far more thrilling/adrenaline inducing than anything I ever did on the race track (and I've had some massive loses on some of the fastest corners in the country :D) and they just didn't get it ?

[LowRanger]

I thought that's why we did it ? :angel:

I used to tell people that 4x4ing in low/low was far more thrilling/adrenaline inducing than anything I ever did on the race track (and I've had some massive loses on some of the fastest corners in the country :D) and they just didn't get it ?

:DEvery time I get the old truck into Low it is an adrenalin rush,but I do try and limit blood rushes caused by being upside down on my head:twisted:

[jakeslouw]

500mm Lift =

http://goingbush.com/landy/500mm.jpg





.

That looks bloody good!

[uninformed]

That looks bloody good!

Unfortunately, I don't think its very well sorted...

[Drover]

Unfortunately, I don't think its very well sorted...

Why ?

[goingbush]

apologies, a bit of photoslop involved in that pic
heres the orig image, Defender 130 on portal axles

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[uninformed]

Why ?

I seem to remember reading about it.....Looking at the front end, it MAY have radius arms and it looks like its lifted.

portals+big tyres+spring lift+ stock length RA = not very good :(

[jakeslouw]

apologies, a bit of photoslop involved in that pic
heres the orig image, Defender 130 on portal axles

http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/attachments/arb-trucks/64686d1305370272-interesting-one-landy-lovers-4521350045.jpg

Ha ha yes realised it was a bit of a photoshop.
Crieky that portal axle baby looks like my kind of truck.

[jakeslouw]

I seem to remember reading about it.....Looking at the front end, it MAY have radius arms and it looks like its lifted.

portals+big tyres+spring lift+ stock length RA = not very good :(

You'll need to strengthen the RAs and their mounts both ends as the rotational forces will be higher, but apart from that, no worries.

[uninformed]

You'll need to strengthen the RAs and their mounts both ends as the rotational forces will be higher, but apart from that, no worries.

take a stock RRC on 29's, looking at the vehicle from the side, draw a line from tyre contact patch to the RA chassis mount, disecting the chassis mount bush........see this angle. Now do the same with the vehcile in the pic ;)