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gromit
14th September 2012, 02:20 PM
Following the gift of a set of Peach & Tommasini DVD's for Father's Day and limited experience of panel beating I'm going to try and repair the wings on my C240 powered SIII.
I have a horrible feeling that I'll need oxy to anneal the aluminium before working on it, can anyone confirm/deny this ? Although I guess it depends how work hardened it is.

I have some cheap hammers & dollies, I've found a company in Boronia, VIC that make sandbags for a reasonable price and when I get time I'll make up some wooden hammers at the local woodwork club. Any other tools I might need ?
Tommasini lists tools, I'll visit next week and check prices.
Classic Car Restoration Melbourne VIC - Restoring Old Cars Victoria, Vintage & Antique Car Restoration- Keys To Classic - Home (http://www.handbuilt.net.au/)

Colin

Flaps
14th September 2012, 06:06 PM
man i wouldn't add heat to Ali it will just twist and warp probably then make it harder got get dents out. Ali might even already be annealed. i would buy decent hammers and just dont hit it too hard cause u will just stretch it more u can get shrinking hammer dont know how good they are or how to use them.

gromit
14th September 2012, 06:16 PM
man i wouldn't add heat to Ali it will just twist and warp probably then make it harder got get dents out. Ali might even already be annealed. i would buy decent hammers and just dont hit it too hard cause u will just stretch it more u can get shrinking hammer dont know how good they are or how to use them.

Annealing will make it easier to work and if applied carefully it shouldn't cause any twisting. I just wondered if anyone had worked it successfully without annealing.
As most of the panels are flat they wouldn't have work hardened but I'm not sure whether the aluminium supplied to the factory was 'half hard' or soft.

Tools used to work aluminium are often hardwood or plastic so that you don't deform the metal too much, hence I'm going to be making my own hammers.


Colin

Flaps
14th September 2012, 07:00 PM
oh yea iv seen the photos looks like a cool project i think if u are carefully with the heat and only heat the dents they may even pop out abit. but i would go with the hammer first choice then heat if it needs.

Flaps
14th September 2012, 07:17 PM
And if it were work hardened it may crack when dented so ud think it would still be soft

copba
14th September 2012, 08:25 PM
Remembering back to my half finished panel beating apprenticeship, you'll probably need a little carefully applied heat. The biggest trouble is that as there's no colour change, it's difficult to judge how much.
Too much heat, and instant hole :o
Keep a wet rag on hand to cool it down, and try and get or make a flipper (which is basically a large bastard file with the tang cut off, and the narrower tapered end bent around to form a handle) the little teeth are really good at shrinking stretched metal.

Good luck with it, it's a skill thats dying out unfortunately.

Landy Smurf
14th September 2012, 09:14 PM
put dish-washing liquid on the other side to what you are heating(or the side that you are heating i cant actually remember) and when it starts to bubble/go brown then that is enough heat

clubagreenie
14th September 2012, 09:21 PM
If it's just simple dents then heat is the only thing needed to shrink it back. I once spent an awesome week watching a crusty gent shrinking a hail damaged alloy body from something of stupid value that should never have left the shed using nothing but oxy and bucket of water and rag.

I was about 15 or 16 and mesmerised at the fact you could run you hands over it and feel nothing when finished.

However, if mangeled/torn then beating needs annealing. There's good instructions on it in one of the old non genuine aftermarket manuals for a S3 (orange cover). Also details on welding on flame and fluxes to use. Best filler material is scraps of the parent birmabright itself.

wrinklearthur
14th September 2012, 09:42 PM
A few links to drool over.


Heat Treatment of Aluminum Alloys (http://www.mlevel3.com/BCIT/heat%20treat.htm)


Ref; http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/aoe_18.pdf


Original cars do not have a beautiful transitional sweep from the trunk latch area to the body area below.
The transition needed a little bit of surgery to make it right.
Aluminum must be annealed to move it very far.
First, I coated it with soot...

Ref; TM Technologies - Aluminum Alloys Continued (http://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php)


Some prefer to heat with the neutral torch flame, and rub the panel with either a bar of soap or a stick of soft pine, waiting for the material to char. At that point the temperature is somewhere around 650F. Some like to mark the aluminum with black felt tip pens before heating, but some pens are heavier in carbon content than others, so watch out for the more interesting results!
The techno-reader might now be thinking of the digital infrared thermocouple devices now sold for analysis work, but they do not work well at all on these reflective surfaces. Aside from the traditional and very convenient torch-soot method, I personally tend toward using the temperature indicating crayons sold in many welding stores. These crayons are remarkably accurate, easy to use and usually cost less than replacing most ruined new panels.


Tempilstik temperature indicator crayons make marks that melt within 1% of their rated temperatures, changing appearance from chalky to glossy. There are over 100 temperature ratings, systematically spaced between 100ºF -2500ºF (38ºC - 1371ºC.) Most can be certified to be lead, sulfur and halogen free.

The torch-soot method of annealing aluminum sheet needs to be specifically addressed here, partly due to certain well-meaning automotive influences, and partly because of the temporary wane of the aircraft metalworking tradition.

The torch-soot process is the method whereby the workman sets the torch to either pure acetylene or an acetylene-rich condition and coats the panel with the appropriate amount of soot. After resetting the torch either to a neutral flame (hot) or to an oxidizing flame (really hot), he then burns off the soot, achieving the proper heat necessary for recrystallization of the aluminum alloy, and its attendant annealing.

.

mick88
14th September 2012, 10:27 PM
My wifes uncle is an old school panel beater and he has done a few jobs on aluminium for me.
He usually applies some heat then quench's the area with a wet rag to shrink it back to remove warping and stretching!


Cheers, Mick

slug_burner
14th September 2012, 11:31 PM
If you have oxy, run the flame on acetylene only to leave a coating of soot on the panel, turn the oxygen back on, heat panel from the other side, the soot will burn off when you get to the right temperature. Allow to cool and ally will be workable. Have also heard dad talk about placing soap marks and when they go, it is hot enough. Never seen the soap trick but have seen metal shaping vids where the soot method was used, Ron Covell was the craftsman who shows the soot trick.

gromit
18th October 2012, 07:32 AM
I've nearly finished making a couple of wooden hammers for when I get round to practicing panel beating on a few Land Rover parts.
I called on Peter Tommasini yesterday to check out some tool prices. He is very down to earth, gave me some pointers and even told me how to go about the job (I even had a cuppa with him). I ended up buying a slapper(flipper), he gets them part made locally, does some work on them then sends them out for the face to be hardened and then finishes them off.
Peter's workshop is quite small but the work he does is outstanding. There was an early Jaguar on the floor that he's made about 60-70% of the panels for, total hours so far in excess of 900 ! Motoring pornography......


Colin

clubagreenie
18th October 2012, 09:07 AM
Where are these guys? I've always wanted just to watch them work. Seen a few of their clips but you could just sit and watch and learn for hours. Sadly, there's little way to learn and ply these trades any longer.

gromit
18th October 2012, 08:25 PM
Where are these guys? I've always wanted just to watch them work. Seen a few of their clips but you could just sit and watch and learn for hours. Sadly, there's little way to learn and ply these trades any longer.

Peter Tommasini is based in Bayswater, VIC.
I'm not sure if Tom Peach is still involved.

You can buy the set of DVD'c from Peter Tommasini or via Gasoline. He apparently didn't make any money out of the features on Gasoline but saw it as a way to promote his business. Buy the DVD's directly from him and he makes something.
He also runs training courses.

Classic Car Restoration Melbourne VIC - Restoring Old Cars Victoria, Vintage & Antique Car Restoration- Keys To Classic - Home (http://www.handbuilt.net.au/)


Colin

Landy Smurf
19th October 2012, 10:12 PM
has anyone on here actually panel beated aluminium successfully?

clubagreenie
20th October 2012, 12:03 AM
Original Birmabright gets very brittle unless treated accordingly. Just outright hitting it won't do. Depends on the scope of repair as to the approach.

Pics?

gromit
22nd October 2012, 07:07 AM
has anyone on here actually panel beated aluminium successfully?

I guess it depends a lot on your definition of 'successfully'.

I've seen a lot of Land Rovers with gloss paint over dented panels and I've also been told that filler will not stick to aluminium (I'm sure with the right prep it will).
I've also seen Land Rovers with perfectly straight, undented panels but I'm not sure if this was because they had been looked after in earlier life, because someone had done a brilliant job of straightening them or the panels came from a collection of donor cars.

It's one of those jobs where you need to invest in the tools to do the job and then practice a lot until you get it right (or alternatively hunt down better panels). If you employed someone to do the panel beating you would quickly spend more that the car is worth.

It seems that to do the job properly you need to be able to anneal the aluminium so I need to justify gas bottle rental to SWMBO, luckily I already have a torch & gauges.


Colin

clubagreenie
22nd October 2012, 07:38 AM
There's some new fillers out that will go straight over the paintwork. Amazing stuff, easy to work too, doesn't clump up as it goes off as much so you can work it longer.

gromit
22nd October 2012, 05:02 PM
Just remembered, Chazza ran through the panel beating of a cab roof.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-ii-iia/146620-panel-beating-2a-roof.html


Colin

isuzurover
22nd October 2012, 05:54 PM
Yes I have successfully panel beaten LR panels.


... I've also been told that filler will not stick to aluminium (I'm sure with the right prep it will).
...

These are probably the same people who say paint won't stick to gal or ally???

I built my IIA in 1993-1995. It had been heavily rolled by the PO, and I did not replace any panels except the roof and the cappings. All the filler is still stuck on as well as when I applied it.

IRC there is an "etching" bog available, however standard filler is fine, just make sure you go over the area with a coarse disc before applying the bog, to remove any oxide layer.

As described on the previous page, Oxy and a wet rag/sponge is vital to shrink any areas that have stretched during panel beating.

On mine, the rear tub was a mess (both sides bent in like a V due to being rolled with the canvas hoops fitted). I was forced to press the sides out with a porta-power, then cut along each crease, and re-weld with a MIG while holding everything in place with a porta power. I should have replaced the rear tub, but I had a more time than $$$ back then, and it was certainly a learning experience. Some of the welds have since cracked, but that was more to do with carting 1.5T loads of firewood...

Ynysmardy
13th June 2016, 05:58 PM
if it is just a dent you are trying to get rid of you can spray washing detergent on the dent, heat the dent slowly until the detergent dries up and hit it with the cold water, should have told you this first, have a bucket of ice cold water ready. with a cold rag or sponge put it straight on the dent, a lot of times it will shrink and pop back, don't put the heat in one place for to long or you will melt the aluminium. you may have to do it a few time depending how bad the dent is. good luck. Taffy

jerryd
16th June 2016, 08:56 AM
has anyone on here actually panel beated aluminium successfully?


An old school panel beater repaired the rear corner of my dormobile as it was rather dented, he even straightened out the galvanised corner strip and primed the wing.

Charged me $300 :)

Lionelgee
23rd June 2016, 10:02 PM
Hello All,

As far as determining the correct temperature to heat the alloy to - there are a range of temperature crayons. Here is one company that makes them. I have no affiliation with them. Accessed June 23, 2016 from, Temperature Crayons Manufactures, Temperature Crayons Suppliers, Exporters (http://www.temperatureindicatorcrayons.com/temperature_Crayon.html)

Kind Regards
Lionel

S3ute
24th June 2016, 02:54 PM
if it is just a dent you are trying to get rid of you can spray washing detergent on the dent, heat the dent slowly until the detergent dries up and hit it with the cold water, should have told you this first, have a bucket of ice cold water ready. with a cold rag or sponge put it straight on the dent, a lot of times it will shrink and pop back, don't put the heat in one place for to long or you will melt the aluminium. you may have to do it a few time depending how bad the dent is. good luck. Taffy

Hello from Brisbane.

I have been putting off fixing a few panels for ages and also read the various guides on annealing Birmabrite panels. These typically mention using soap as the guide to temperature. When people speak of laundry detergent for this job is it classic liquid detergent straight from the laundry bottle? Undiluted?

The panels are more mildly dimpled than dented - nice to think they might straighten with just heat and a very cold rag.

Cheers,

Neil

gromit
24th June 2016, 05:20 PM
From what I've seen it's a bar of soap. Rub a few stripes on the area being heated and wait for it to change colour

Some details here The Annealing Process - An Easy Guide on how to Anneal Metals (http://steamshed.com/annealing%20process.html)

Colin

Lionelgee
26th June 2016, 10:27 AM
Hello Gromit,

Hmmm annealing aluminium using temperature crayons - who would have thunk it :p Accessed 26th June 2016 from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPe6rBPOnx0

Oh it has a bit about the soot method too :angel:

Kind Regards
Lionel

Lionelgee
26th June 2016, 10:52 AM
Hello All,

I found this training film that goes through both processes it is pretty interesting; apart from the monotone voice ... It is in black and white as well.

Cold Working & Heat Treatment of Aluminum (Aluminium) 1945 US Office of Education Accessed June 26th 2016 from, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6FwPKlSC0M

Kind Regards
Lionel

chazza
10th July 2016, 09:12 AM
This is the first time I have seen this post despite all the years of being on AULRO;)

Having read through all of the responses, and having moved on from my post about restoring the cab roof and graduated to making my first 80" wing; I can offer the following advice, knowing it to be true because I have done it.

1. Aluminium can be welded with an oxy plant; or TIG, for repairing or fabricating panels. MIG is best-used for fast welding on heavier gauges. Oxy welding is not too difficult - like all welding it needs heaps of practice. Buy Tommasini's DVD for expert tuition on oxy-acetylene welding aluminium. The best welding rods are suitably prepared strips of the same metal, cut to about 2mm wide.

2. Birmabright as used on the S1's, is very soft and will not need annealling. It is so soft, that to straighten a dent on the radius of the wing I used only a dolly to bump it up, to get rid of 90% of the dent. On my S3 the aluminium seems harder, but is still easy to work.

3. Aluminium can be filled with plastic filler; like paint it depends on the preparation.

4. Aluminium can be shaped and beaten just like steel, but generally requires less physical effort.

5. Buying Birmabright seems to be no longer possible; I use an aluminium alloy in the Australian 5000 series. This alloy work-hardens and needs to be annealed frequently when making the top curves on the wing.

6. To get the metal hot enough to anneal it and not melt a hole - without spending much money - use soap, or a pine stick.

For soap; take a cake from the bathroom, wet it and rub some stripes on the area to be annealed. Using an oxy set, or sometimes an LPG torch, heat the area until the soap turns black. Brown is too cold, so make sure it turns black. Use a soft flame and heat with the cold end of the plume and keep the torch moving all of the time. Once a stripe is black, move on and don't come back with the heat. When the metal is cold it can be easily formed; anneal again when it starts to spring back. Some alloys age-harden, so it might not be soft when you come back in the morning!

For pine; heat the aluminium as above but rub a piece of pine on the surface frequently; the metal is annealed when the pine leaves a charred black mark on the metal. The difficulty with this method is to test frequently enough and not be distracted and over-heat it, i.e the right-hand not knowing what the left-hand is doing with the torch :eek:.

7. On flat panels, it is extremely difficult to beat it back to flat ? I have failed several times! An English Wheel is the best tool to use and it is important to realise that even "flat" panels, are actually slightly convex, to give them some strength.

Be very, very, wary about using heat to shrink a flat aluminium panel, as the heat disperses far and wide very quickly, unlike a steel panel. After wrecking the outer wing on my 80", I made the decision to make a new one. :D

Cheers Charlie