Suspension Advice Needed

[Ben7]

G'day

It's time to do the suspension on my 2005 defender 130 due to the idiot before me obliviously taking out an after market lift kit and replacing it with random parts to then flog it off to me with out mention

My mechanic is suggesting just your standard 2 inch lift from OME with the option of dual rear shocks (2 on each side). People thoughts?? Also relocation cones and straps

I have had a look at the Terrafirma 2 inch pro lift and quite like the look of this but i think i need some peoples advice.

i manly use the car for work, towing a 1.6t boat during weekends in summer and do get away camping and 4WDing quite often but saying this i'm also looking for comfort.

any suggestion would be much appreciated? keep it simple tho i'm no expect at this

Cheers in advance Ben

[inside]

Have you thought about running it standard height? Normal springs, normal shocks. The Defender has quite a lot of ground clearance anyway. It would likely be more comfortable and being a bit lower makes it a bit easier to live with.

Just my thoughts.

[ade]

I agree if landrover thought it needed a 2 inch lift they would have fitted it with one

[Ben7]

I should have mentioned i'm running 285.75R16 and they scrap under articulation up front also like i said the suspension is all different

i'd also like a little more lift due to the 4WDing and i the look of it

[Blknight.aus]

for what you're saying your doing the OEM setup is fine.

If you want to save a few pennies I'll recommend Suspension Stuff (http://suspensionstuff.com.au/shop/)

[Drover]

Hey Ben,

I have got a 50mm lift, TF pro sports +50 on the front and TF Big Bores on the rear.

Shocks have been great, been 12 months no issues that includes a trip to the Cape.

I also run the cranked rear arms and 3 degree caster correction arms in the front.

It is really nice set up, does everything right, lots of flex and rides great on the tar.

[Dockstrada]

Hey Ben,

I have got a 50mm lift, TF pro sports +50 on the front and TF Big Bores on the rear.

Shocks have been great, been 12 months no issues that includes a trip to the Cape.

I also run the cranked rear arms and 3 degree caster correction arms in the front.

It is really nice set up, does everything right, lots of flex and rides great on the tar.

Hey Drover , did you install a DBL Cardan drive shaft with the lift ,if you did who did you get it from ?

I just ordered a set of TF Big Bores should get them this week.

[chook73]

Hey Drover , did you install a DBL Cardan drive shaft with the lift ,if you did who did you get it from ?

I just ordered a set of TF Big Bores should get them this week.

Did you order the Big Bores for the front?

[Dockstrada]

Did you order the Big Bores for the front?


Yep, should I have ?

[Drover]

Hey Drover , did you install a DBL Cardan drive shaft with the lift ,if you did who did you get it from ?

I just ordered a set of TF Big Bores should get them this week.

Not at the time, but it soon became apparent I should have.

The DC prop shaft was fitted soon after.

The DC shaft was a custom made unit.

Be carefully when you start looking for your's - not all DC prop shafts are created equal !!!

PS : I havent forgot those pic', just need to find some time.

[chook73]

Yep, should I have ?

No they don't fit properly (well they fit but they rub), you need to go the pro-sport (I think they are called) on the front and big bore on the rear.

[rick130]

I agree if landrover thought it needed a 2 inch lift they would have fitted it with one

I've never, ever 'gotten' this argument....

Sometimes we may want to do something differently to what Land Rover envisaged, sometimes what Land Rover has engineered can easily be improved.
It's not what Land Rover thought, it's what I want to do that's important.

To put it another way, one of my mates is an ex-Land Rover engineer and he can list multiple things they've done wrong/badly/poorly over the years, so a Defender can be improved in so many areas, even their engineers think so ;)

Having said that, most people that 'lift' a 4WD do it pretty poorly, with little thought about how to combine the sometimes conflicting requirements anyway. :angel:

[Dockstrada]

No they don't fit properly (well they fit but they rub), you need to go the pro-sport (I think they are called) on the front and big bore on the rear.

Ahh! I better look into that , does that go for the +2 ones ?

Where do they rub ?

[chook73]

Ahh! I better look into that , does that go for the +2 ones ?

Where do they rub ?

Yes and if your going to fit +2 make sure you have done your measurements as mine dislocated +2 springs.

From memory they rubbed on the spring and the turret.

[chook73]

I agree if landrover thought it needed a 2 inch lift they would have fitted it with one

So by that theory none of us should have a snorkel?

[Ben7]

Drover

Do you have relocation cones or straps fitted? have you left the internal string in the rear? You don't find the big bore to rigid in the rear?

I'm thinking i'll go with terrafirma. Big bore shocks in the rear and the pro shocks in the front with 2inch pro springs all round.

[chook73]

Drover

Do you have relocation cones or straps fitted? have you left the internal string in the rear? You don't find the big bore to rigid in the rear?

I'm thinking i'll go with terrafirma. Big bore shocks in the rear and the pro shocks in the front with 2inch pro springs all round.

What rate springs are you after Ben? I have a set of the medium which were too soft for me that have done about 20km I would sell you at a good price.


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[Drover]

Drover

Do you have relocation cones or straps fitted? have you left the internal string in the rear? You don't find the big bore to rigid in the rear?

I'm thinking i'll go with terrafirma. Big bore shocks in the rear and the pro shocks in the front with 2inch pro springs all round.

I have TF +50mm pros ports in the front with +50 Old Man Emu springs. There extended length is a perfect match. A full drop the spring don't dislocate at all.

The rear springs, although +50mm are still the same length as stock springs ? Yeah I was surprised to. I run PolyAir's air bag so I don't want any dislocation and I can't use cones( due to the air bags)....so I use stock length TF BigBores.

I still have the extra ground clearance, without dislocation issues.

BigBores are great shock, they are very comfortable, but due to the large size do not suffer any fade when hot.

Cheers

[Dockstrada]

So I have fitted some new shocks.
After buying the T/F Big Bore for the fronts and rear, I did a quick measure and noticed that when I fitted the +50 coils to the front it rotates the diff forward which moves the shocks off center, foward in the shock tower see in pic, hence the clearance problem with fitting the T/F B/bore shocks with +50 lift.

Att full extention .
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/09/521.jpg
With weight of truck .
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/09/522.jpg

Solution is to fit castor correction radius arms to rotate the diff back to OEM standard, maybe later .

So I ended up with
T/F pro sports +50 on the front
T/F Big Bores standard hight on the rear which after I measured them they are 38mm longer than the standard L/Rover ones.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/09/523.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/09/524.jpg
My next problem is that pro sport’s shocks only come in +50 so now I have a uni binding and spring dislocation issue on full articulation.

Solution for shaft, I just ordered a DBL Cardan shaft from Tom Woods

Solution for spring dislocation, hoping that I can have some feedback from the forum .

The dislocation isn’t allot, it’s only about 20mm at the front of the spring the rear is still sitting on the plate.

I was thinking of machining a new lower plate with a internal cone with a 80mm hole in the top to clear the shock maybe 40 or 50 mm high guide cone so it guides the spring back in into the seat .

[chook73]

This is the exact problem I went through, next is to fit dislocation cones but then you will get the dc shaft binding on the sway bars so you either need to remove the sway bars or fit spacers.

If you fit spacers then you will need to move them back 3/4" or the sway bar will invert.

Other problem you will have to overcome from memory is you need to fit longer bump stops or new turrets.

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[uninformed]

how does the diff get rotated forward???

while the axle housing does rotate (pinion up, loss of castor), due to the RA's being fixed at the chassis, it has actually moved the axle rearward as it travels through the arc scribed by the RA's...so the lower shock mount may be rotated, but it is actually further back than at stock ride height....

Im not sure why your pics show so much forward movement of the lower shock mount.......

[Drover]

Fit these to the front of find some springs that match the length of the shocks.

Front dislocation cones - sydney4x4accessories (http://www.sydney4x4accessories.com/hardware/139-front-dislocation-cones.html)

[uninformed]

Or fit springs that match the shock and don't need dislocation cones...and just retain them.

[chook73]

I have to say I went down this path and chased the problem for ages with no happy ending until I went to a specialist and had it all measured properly. Whilst yet to be fitted (thats next week) I was amazed at how cheap it was, it actually cost less than the TF stuff and I am confident because its been weighed and measured and comes with a lifetime warranty that I am going down the right path.

[Dockstrada]

Fit these to the front of find some springs that match the length of the shocks.

Front dislocation cones - sydney4x4accessories (http://www.sydney4x4accessories.com/hardware/139-front-dislocation-cones.html)

That was exactley what i was thinking of spinning up on the lathe , thanks its a much easier option .

[strangy]

I have to say I went down this path and chased the problem for ages with no happy ending until I went to a specialist and had it all measured properly. Whilst yet to be fitted (thats next week) I was amazed at how cheap it was, it actually cost less than the TF stuff and I am confident because its been weighed and measured and comes with a lifetime warranty that I am going down the right path.

Please post some pics and specs when it's done,

[chook73]

Here is a pic of my front shocks with 3deg correction it looks pretty well the same and you can see the rub marks.

51375

51376



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[PAT303]

I've yet to drive an LR that has aftermarket suspension thats as good as standard,all are just stiffer springs with whatever shock the owner prefers and they drive like crap.I'd take chooks advice and do it properly. Pat

[lambrover]

I've yet to drive an LR that has aftermarket suspension thats as good as standard,all are just stiffer springs with whatever shock the owner prefers and they drive like crap.I'd take chooks advice and do it properly. Pat

I reckon standard defenders drive like crap, way to stiff for my liking. Take a standard height vehicle and one with a decent 2+ lift and you will notice a difference over rough ground.

As mentioned it depends on what you fit though.

Just for the 2 guys who think defenders are just fine as they are, what are you doing on here, this is for people that modify and work on there cars, you can stick to the dealers and less capable vehicles.

Vehicles are released at a cost effective standard not optimum for any thing but a compromise.

[Summiitt]

I reckon standard defenders drive like crap, way to stiff for my liking. Take a standard height vehicle and one with a decent 2+ lift and you will notice a difference over rough ground.

As mentioned it depends on what you fit though.

Just for the 2 guys who think defenders are just fine as they are, what are you doing on here, this is for people that modify and work on there cars, you can stick to the dealers and less capable vehicles.

Vehicles are released at a cost effective standard not optimum for any thing but a compromise.

Interesting comment, defenders are designed to carry loads, if you take a defender off road with less than 400kg on board, they will be harsh and won't flex as they are designed to do. I did 120,000km hard off road driving in my 110 puma and the suspension was stock and performed brilliantly. My current 130 single cab tray tops stock suspension will be left as is for the time been. If it's not fully loaded it rides harsh and is uncomfortable, it has to be loaded above 3t gvm to settle it down and make it work off road...it's common knowledge in commercial applications that a 79 cruiser will need heavier rear springs from new or by 30k, I am expecting at least 150k out of the defenders standard setup before they start looking tired...just my 2 bobs worth.

[TimNZ]

Just for the 2 guys who think defenders are just fine as they are, what are you doing on here, this is for people that modify and work on there cars, you can stick to the dealers and less capable vehicles.


What??? Since when? That is a very arrogant statement.

[lambrover]

What??? Since when? That is a very arrogant statement.

Yeah it may be, It was said because I am sick of people who's advice is just leave it standard land rovers are perfect standard.

[lambrover]

Interesting comment, defenders are designed to carry loads, if you take a defender off road with less than 400kg on board, they will be harsh and won't flex as they are designed to do. I did 120,000km hard off road driving in my 110 puma and the suspension was stock and performed brilliantly. My current 130 single cab tray tops stock suspension will be left as is for the time been. If it's not fully loaded it rides harsh and is uncomfortable, it has to be loaded above 3t gvm to settle it down and make it work off road...it's common knowledge in commercial applications that a 79 cruiser will need heavier rear springs from new or by 30k, I am expecting at least 150k out of the defenders standard setup before they start looking tired...just my 2 bobs worth.

Yeah so it depends on what your using the vehicle for. I would still prefer my 3 inch lift over standard any day, for one a standard car wont be as capable off road. I have a 130 and I have no problems if you want to compare the two, but I know you wont keep up in the bush. I am in Sydney.

What are you talking about as hard off road driving, corrugations? If so I would still prefer my lift as it handles bumps better and less likely to hit the bump stops.

The lift just has to be done right.

[pannawonica]

Interesting comment, defenders are designed to carry loads, if you take a defender off road with less than 400kg on board, they will be harsh and won't flex as they are designed to do. I did 120,000km hard off road driving in my 110 puma and the suspension was stock and performed brilliantly. My current 130 single cab tray tops stock suspension will be left as is for the time been. If it's not fully loaded it rides harsh and is uncomfortable, it has to be loaded above 3t gvm to settle it down and make it work off road...it's common knowledge in commercial applications that a 79 cruiser will need heavier rear springs from new or by 30k, I am expecting at least 150k out of the defenders standard setup before they start looking tired...just my 2 bobs worth.

This is so true. My 110 Puma with a 400 kg payload rides well. The cruisers at work all have aftermarket suspension from new, at great expence.:D The ride is terrible !:(

[rick130]

Yeah so it depends on what your using the vehicle for. I would still prefer my 3 inch lift over standard any day, for one a standard car wont be as capable off road. I have a 130 and I have no problems if you want to compare the two, but I know you wont keep up in the bush. I am in Sydney.

What are you talking about as hard off road driving, corrugations? If so I would still prefer my lift as it handles bumps better and less likely to hit the bump stops.

The lift just has to be done right.

and 90% aren't, especially off the shelf kits, which is what Pat was talking about.

[LowRanger]

Reading this thread,I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone:eek:
Sooooo glad I stayed out of this one:D

[DeanoH]

Reading this thread,I feel like I am in the Twilight Zone:eek:
Sooooo glad I stayed out of this one:D

......................................... coming back to the real wold. ;)

Like the OP I need some suspension advice.

I've spent a fair bit of time and effort in bringing a somewhat dillapidated 130 single cab Tdi back to good repair including replacing various suspension rubbers, bushes, ball joints (all the usual suspects) etc.

The springs are OK as are the shockers which have been replaced at some stage. Don't know what brand but are white and Made in USA.

What I am after is info on what I can do to enhance off road performance without going all out. I would prefer to keep my 235/85's even though I have a set of 255/85 KM's, as they rub on full lock and with 130" wheelbase screwing the stops out tends to make a already 'large' turning circle worse.

So what can/should I do to 'improve' matters. I have sway bars front and rear, should I remove them? I've already replaced the pretzel like track rod and drag link with HD ones. Should I remove the inner springs on the rear ?

Without going all out and spending thousands, is something like Les Richmonds $750 kit worth doing ?

Performance Suspension Kits (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d599.html#p17194)

The 130 is/will be my 'toy' and as such is not a daily driver that has to double as a work or commuter vehicle.

I've got the front end in partial bits at the moment replacing the radius arm rubbers so now is a good time to change things.

The front anti-sway bar is a bit bent, sort of trapezium shaped, but not seriously so. Should I leave it as is, replace it with a HD version or give it the flick all together ?

I'm not building a rock climbing comp vehicle, but whilst in bits what relatively simple things can I do to improve off road capability without opening a whole can of worms. (already have HD rear axles and flanges).

Say for a budget of $1K what can/should I do.

Deano :)

[PAT303]

Yeah it may be, It was said because I am sick of people who's advice is just leave it standard land rovers are perfect standard.

I'm sick of blokes saying you need to modify Land Rovers because they are no good when I've driven all over Oz in standard Land Rovers without an issue;).I think people change things for no good reason other than it's fad to have HD 2'' lift kits and twin rear wheel carriers etc. Pat

[Dusty1111]

Ditch the sway bars to start with! Good shockers will control body roll and your flex will increase dramatically.

[lambrover]

I'm sick of blokes saying you need to modify Land Rovers because they are no good when I've driven all over Oz in standard Land Rovers without an issue;).I think people change things for no good reason other than it's fad to have HD 2'' lift kits and twin rear wheel carriers etc. Pat

I do understand but you are not driving where I go either, I have hit the sills on my car with 33 inch tyres and a lift with 3 inch springs. If you can follow then I will put my car back to standard.

One advantage of a vehicle with modified suspension is it is able to the obstacle easier.

Pat I have the feeling you are talking about dirt roads and tracks not 4x4ing in crawling and big rutted tracks. My car can do both and a standard car will not.

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[dullbird]

I would just like to say that Ian has followed MANY locked and lifted defenders off road in his Standard 90....

Ian used to constantly get the " you better not come this way you wont make it" well guess what he did. including following another 90 that was on 33's and twin locked....that was included a huge cross axles amongst other things.

I'm not saying people shouldnt lift their cars (mine is lifted) by a long shot, but I to get fed up of hearing the "you wont follow me in a standard car" just like you get fed up of hearing that standard cars are fine. I'm not saying he would follow people absolutely EVERYWHERE to claim that would be ludicrous.

But I would almost bet you would be surprised just how far he gets in his standard car....some people dont give standard cars enough credit...a lot of it is about who is behind the wheel.

and I agree with pat a lot of people lift their cars I think because its the done thing, not because they REALLY need it.

[Dockstrada]

I lifted mine so I can get a better view of the girls legs in the car next to me at the lights, isn't that why we all do it ? :whistling:

[dullbird]

mmm I don't hahahahahah:D

[rick130]

I lifted mine so I can get a better view of the girls legs in the car next to me at the lights, isn't that why we all do it ? :whistling:

a) what are lights ?
b) everyone around here drives a 4WD



:angel: :D

[justinc]

The only reason I have Aftermarket LRA Orange front springs in my 110 is the Isuzu is heavier than a Tdi, otherwise I'd stick with FACTORY 130 fronts.The rears are standard Defender red stripe, Decarbon shocks allround.
Loaded I have an exemplary ride, especially with the campertrailer on. Unladen it is a bit harsh in the rear but I live with it. I will no doubt go down the rear airspring route at some point, I have driven some with them converted and the ride is definately better unladen, and fantastic when laden and adjusted.

I have Defender front and rear anti roll bars too, welded the factory brackets to the front chassis rails and used a Rangie front diff housing. Very happy with it all round actually :)


JC

[Dockstrada]

a) what are lights ?
b) everyone around here drives a 4WD



:angel: :D


Its a beer the girls drink :D

Summer is just around the corner.
When you live near the beach things get interesting on a hot day :p

[DeanoH]

This is what my front LHS spring/shocker looks like.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/09/228.jpg

It would seem that the shocker is rubbed by the spring (presumably at full articulation). Is this OK or should I do something about it ?

I assume this is what spring dislocation cones are for, to stop this happening ? or should I use spring retaining plates instead ? :confused:. I assume that the springs are standard. This is front LHS, the front RHS has a red/orange stripe. Shockers aren't original but I assume (without measuring) that they are standard shockers (part no 747510 Made in USA).

Deano :)

[the_preacher1973]

This is what my front LHS spring/shocker looks like.



It would seem that the shocker is rubbed by the spring (presumably at full articulation). Is this OK or should I do something about it ?

I assume this is what spring dislocation cones are for, to stop this happening ? or should I use spring retaining plates instead ? :confused:. I assume that the springs are standard.
Deano :)

Personally I'd look at doing something about it.

Spring dislocation cones are to allow your axle to droop as far as the shock will go and be able to slide back up into their seats.

Spring retaining plates are to stop the springs dropping out of their seats therefore not utilising the extra travel of the shock.

Whther the extra travel accomplishes anything considering there is no weight on the wheel (as the spring is not contacting both ends) is a different topic.

I don't believe either device will fix your problem.

[dullbird]

Ok well being as though Presses seem to be like arse holes (everyone has one)

what make would you recommend and would you say we should at least get a 30T? especially as Rick used 25 to put an A frame ball joint in..which no doubt we will have to do in the 90 soon its got a big clunk coming form the rear.

[rick130]

Ok well being as though Presses seem to be like arse holes (everyone has one)

what make would you recommend and would you say we should at least get a 30T? especially as Rick used 25 to put an A frame ball joint in..which no doubt we will have to do in the 90 soon its got a big clunk coming form the rear.

It was over 25 ton just to get the old one out.

Sometimes you can be lucky and belt them out with a lumpy hammer, other times you need the press.

I think I used near that pressure pressing out (or in ?) when I was swapping to the Haultech holey bushes in the front radius arms years ago.

[dullbird]

we have never been lucky belting them with a hammer we have had to take ours to get them pressed in and out by someone else