Flat Bed Truck

[Celtoid]

Waved bye bye to my D4 today as it was driven away on a flat bed truck. That's the first time since I've owned it that this has happened.

Not that it was undriveable....I just didn't feel like spontaneously combusting, as it had started hosing diesel everywhere.

Bugger!!!

Rang LR, they recon something to do with the fuel filter.

Seriously unhappy and seriously dangerous. :mad:

[connock]

BUGGER:twisted: let us know the out come

connock

[Graeme]

Reminds me of my D2 one Saturday morning after some fuel line re-routing recall work where fuel started flowing from above the fuel tank just after start-up. Fortunately some verbal instructions allowed me to remove the rear carpet and refit the hose connector properly as I really needed to use the vehicle that day.

[deano]

My D4 is nearly 2 years old now. It's been on the flatbed a couple times and also had to be dragged on its bum because tray truck wouldn't go there. Apparently this is normal!!! Well according to the dealer. I hope you don't have the same evilness on yours as I do on mine. She hates me with a passion. You would think I was seeing a Toyota on the side.

[deano]

Sorry guys. She's awesome when she goes. I just have a case of the B&T's at the moment. (bitter and twisted).

[Celtoid]

Verdict....Fuel Filter Housing failure. As in the internal O-ring/s failed and started leaking. They replaced the whole assembly.

Landrover were appologetic but stated that the failure could just as likely be caused by fuel quality. Sulphur related hardening of the O-ring/s.

Now I've read that it's only been recently the Australia has started marketing decent diesel and even that term is a bit of a stretch. Consistancy of quality is another issue.

So maybe they are right.

So what do you do?

Cheers,

Kev.

[101RRS]

I doubt the fuel quality had anything to do with it - more like the o ring has not been replaced during servicing.

Garry

[CaverD3]

Or not installed properly. ;)

[justinc]

^^

as above is my opinion fwiw.

jc

[isuzurover]

...Sulphur related hardening of the O-ring/s.
...


[bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf]

Now I have heard everything. What a load of BS. If you want I can provide half a dozen PhD qualified chemists as expert witnesses that LR is spinning you porkies.

AU diesel has been <10 ppm sulphur for a while now. Btw - sulphur has minimal effect on seals, it is aromatics that effect seals.

[Celtoid]

[bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf] [bigrolf]

Now I have heard everything. What a load of BS. If you want I can provide half a dozen PhD qualified chemists as expert witnesses that LR is spinning you porkies.

AU diesel has been <10 ppm sulphur for a while now. Btw - sulphur has minimal effect on seals, it is aromatics that effect seals.

I'm a Chemical Scientist and I say you're wrong....LOL....no I'm not. Isn't a PhD a Dr of Philosophy? :wasntme:....what's that got to do with diesel?

I'm not defending LR...****ed off with the issues I've had but isn't it well documented that Australian Diesel is not great (compared to Euro standards) and of inconsistant quality, especially in the Outback and with smaller operators. Can't Tank conditions also affect the fuel?

Is this all AULRO BS....hehehe....:wasntme:...again?

[Stuart02]

PhD is a postgrad qualification in any field... The core requirement is an element of original/novel thinking... AKA philosophy... I'll take the Dr Chemists' word for it over the Dr Spin's word, thanks all the same! :)

[Ashes]

A Dr of Philosophy or a stand up Philosopher:D

[isuzurover]

I'm a Chemical Scientist and I say you're wrong....LOL....no I'm not. Isn't a PhD a Dr of Philosophy? :wasntme:....what's that got to do with diesel?

I'm not defending LR...****ed off with the issues I've had but isn't it well documented that Australian Diesel is not great (compared to Euro standards) and of inconsistant quality, especially in the Outback and with smaller operators. Can't Tank conditions also affect the fuel?

Is this all AULRO BS....hehehe....:wasntme:...again?



In the context of academic degrees, the term "philosophy" does not refer solely to the field of philosophy, but is used in a broader sense in accordance with its original Greek meaning, which is "love of wisdom".

A doctorate in engineering / chemistry / physics is still a PhD in 99.9% of Australian Unis.

Diesel in AU is not as bad as some make out. Diesel must conform to the fuel quality standard - which is basically the same as in EU, etc...
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/diesel.html)
Heavy penalties for non conforming diesel.

We have had ultra low sulphur diesel for many years.

All diesel sold in AU comes from a small number of sources, so there should be little variation unless some dodgy people are doing their own blending.

Some diesel sold in AU has higher aromatics than others. Aromatics are generally undesirable in diesel (they increase octane but not cetane rating). Aromatics make rubber seals swell up. When BP (Brisbane) introduced diesel with lower aromatics (i.e. better diesel with higher cetane rating) in the mid/late 90's in AU, there were a lot of older seals which failed. However even the oldest D3 should not be old enough to have issues of a similar nature.

[Celtoid]

Thanks for the clarification guys...on both PhD and diesel. :)

Sounds like diesel issues in Aus are an urban myth then.....just like LRs being unreliable....:wasntme:

:Rolling:

[isuzurover]

Thanks for the clarification guys...on both PhD and diesel. :)

Sounds like diesel issues in Aus are an urban myth then.....just like LRs being unreliable....:wasntme:

:Rolling:

Don't get me wrong there is dodgy diesel in AU, however usually because it has been contaminated with dirt/water/microbes - or blended by some dodgy servo or distributor - between the refinery/port and point of sale.

I know some refineries in the past have shipped in cheap, high sulphur diesel from china, etc - however they have to blend it to make sure it (just) meets the AU fuel standard before sale.

[justinc]

Don't get me wrong there is dodgy diesel in AU, however usually because it has been contaminated with dirt/water/microbes - or blended by some dodgy servo or distributor - between the refinery/port and point of sale.

I know some refineries in the past have shipped in cheap, high sulphur diesel from china, etc - however they have to blend it to make sure it (just) meets the AU fuel standard before sale.

So, like Ben says the fuel and its effect on seals aren't the issue, it is more than likely a fitting problem.... years ago when I first started servicing D3's I fitted a fuel filter to one that came with some pretty good instructions on how to avoid damaging the Orings when fitting the new filter...back then I thought obviously there has been some problems with fitting/ leaks etc, enough for LR to include literature in the box with the filter.


JC

[Blknight.aus]

Fuel quality may have played a part but not a primary one.

from the "WVO and anything else I can find thats free, oil like and burns" experience with the tdi300

Normally when replacing the fuel system filter I lube the seal then just spin it on till it contacts and then give it a little more, its by no means tight but its not so loose that it can twist loose. Occasionally after changing drums of fuel from one batch to another when refilling a couple of days after the refill SWMBO will complain of a fuel like smell in the car and sure enough the filter will be dripping but still in the same physical location (I usually write the date+ks on the filter after installation so its easily seen). This means seal failure of one nature or another but I'm yet to encounter it where giving the filter an extra part (usually 1/4) turn fails to sort it.

My theory on this is that something in the previous batch of fuel has expanded the seal and that something in the second has caused it to contract or vice versa and the creeping of the seal has been enough to ripple it so it doesnt make full contact. The saving grace of the tdi fuel system is that the filter is in a low pressure part of the system so the seal isnt trying to hold back much.

In a common rail (or unit injected in some cases) with the filter in a full pressure/high flow environment thats not the case its operating at full supply pressure to the high pressure pump and often at much higher flow rates than in an older style diesel. The seal is now holding back a lot more and a very small leak very quickly becomes a major one and the seal gets damaged.

I suspect that some servos may not be dispensing the same quality of fuel and lets just say for a second that high sulfur diesel will cause the seal to shrink and that a 10% bio blend will cause it to expand. IF you had filled up with the bio mix and run it the seal will expand, extrude where it needed to and then begin to settle into that shape. If you then ran the high sulfur mix it would then contract in the same shape which then causes a leak.

Is the fuel the root cause? no, in my experience it's the sealing surface and the seal are not adequately cleaned and lubricated prior to installation or the filter not being done up tight enough to compress the seal adequately (its a statoic o-ring style seal so a compression of 10-20% of the seals width is appropriate)

Is the filter not being on properly the only cause? No, usually something else adds the straw that breaks the camels back in some cases its mechanical vibration, in others its the fuel changing the conditioning of the seal.

[CaverD3]

D3/4/RRS diesel fuel filter is after the low pressure pump and before the HPF pump. I do not know of any filters after the HP pump.

[jonesy63]

LR were very quick to blame the fuel I used in my MY07 D3 - when the HPFP leaked diesel everywhere over the turbo. Flat-bedded twice to dealers. Had 3 failures of this - which eventually was put down to a faulty front bearing design.

I would believe LR at this stage - almost as far as I can spit! :wasntme:

[CaverD3]

Rob, you are being very gererous to LR. :eek: I've seen you spit! :D

I think it is the dealers that are too quick to blame fuel (ie its not us must be your fault)

[Celtoid]

When the replacement turbo produced an oil leak a few weeks ago, LR tightened a bracket or clamp on it and also tightened the fuel filter, as there was a slight fuel leak too.

Move on two weeks or so and diesel was hosing out!!!

[Blknight.aus]

D3/4/RRS diesel fuel filter is after the low pressure pump and before the HPF pump. I do not know of any filters after the HP pump.

I should have put a bit more into the previous post.



Some larger common rail diesel setups have 3 pumps in them

1. The lift pump this provides a constant low pressure high flow of diesel usually there is a dewatering filter with a water sensor on it in this system pressures are typically in the order of 4-8psi. Its primary responsability is to ensure that the next pump doesnt cavitate and is fed clean fuel.

2. The next pump is the pressure pump its purpose is to ensure that the injection pump is always primed and supplied at a constant pressure while being fed the ultra clean fuel that common rail injection pumps require.

3. The last pump is the injection pump this is the one that lifts fuel pressure from "that'd make a good flame thrower" levels up to the "that'll cut steel" arena.

Smaller engines dont need to meet the wildly varying demands in terms of fuel flow (theres very little difference in fuel consumption for a 400HP turbo diesel making 50HP compared to a 200HP turbo diesel making 50 HP but massive differences at the 400HP level) and cooling and so can simplify the system, typically this involves removing one complete element of the pumping setup.

The ford version of common rail (up to 2010 edition stuff) had the lift pump pulling double duty (so a relatively low pressure going into the IP) which means you can use relatively cheap filters as they dont deal with all that much pressure (typically <20psi)

The merc version has the pressure pump pulling double duty (higher pressure going into the IP) so run a heavier duty filter but as they dont usually have a self priming capability they typically run an electric pump in the tank and run a higher supply pressure (20+psi)


I was under the impression that the D3/4 setup was similar to the Merc system.

[101RRS]

The D3/4 just has a low pressure pump and then the HP pump - the main issue is that Landrover placed the filter above a cross member where piggy fingers have problems getting it in and as such is easy to stuff up - I had a couple of goes to get it to seal last change.

The filter should have been placed about 2" forward with a removable protective cover and all would have been simple.

Garry

[Celtoid]

So you know what ****s most about this....?

Yup it could have been designed a bit better...but in my experience Euro Planes, Helos and Cars are not designed with maintenance in mind..:wasntme:....in most cases....LOL!!!

But it comes down to an issue of maybe Mr Fumble Fingers....and I've got fuel all over my driveway and my street...

But wait, it's not that....it's the fact that my D4 ends up on the back of a flat bed....everybody sees that. It's not an ego or arrogance thing, but once again LR get this continuation of an unreliable car tag.... over something so simple.

That ****s me....LOL!!!

[Plane Fixer]

Hey Celtoid.... You forgot to add Metros and MU2 to your list:twisted:

[driftn69]

We had the same issue of a leaking fuel filter following a dealer service on our D4, to cut a long story short after the car was returned to the same dealer for inspection and repair. It leaked again and this time it was suggested to my wife that I was tampering with the filter!!!
What followed next was a formal letter of complaint to LRA regarding the incident, the accusation and the attitude of the very clever service manager. While LRA followed up with several phone calls no contact was ever forthcoming from the dealer.
We received a letter from the dealer recently saying that the car was due for its next service, not a chance. Our service costs now will include a 900k return trip to our next closest dealer.

[scarry]

So you know what ****s most about this....?


But wait, it's not that....it's the fact that my D4 ends up on the back of a flat bed....everybody sees that. It's not an ego or arrogance thing, but once again LR get this continuation of an unreliable car tag.... over something so simple.

That ****s me....LOL!!!


X2.........EXACTLY

Never had an LR let me down ever,maybe i have been lucky.Oh,that is not counting a stuffed battery at 5yrs old in the D2.

Today my D4 comes up with the' can't find the smart key again':mad:,& this time won't start.It did it once while i was out west on the farm a few months ago while the engine was running,but hasn't done it since. After a lot of frigging around eventually it does start,then it does it again later in the day.Eventually it starts ,so take it home,suppose it has to go to the stealers:mad:Hopefully it won't start Monday,so they can pick the friggin thing up themselves.Yer i know it will go on a tilt tray,but i haven't got time to take it to the stealers.

What is it with this key,why not have just a normal one,can't see the advantage of this smart key crap.

[Graeme]

Mine's in danger of ending up on a truck due to a rapidly degrading compressor, having dropped to the bump-stops whilst trying to get some extra height to get home.

[CaverD3]

Told you so.:D
It's your fault Graeme. :p

You should't have posted on the new compressor thread.

[scarry]

Mine's in danger of ending up on a truck due to a rapidly degrading compressor, having dropped to the bump-stops whilst trying to get some extra height to get home.

And when you think about it,you would think they would have sorted the air compressed problems ages ago,same as EPB issues:mad:

These vehicles have been around since '05,have had an updated model etc,etc.
On any forum about LR's all around the world,these seem to be the main issues.

They don't seem to be going forward:mad::mad:

[Graeme]

It was bound to happen - flirting with fate.

Edit: The truck has been avoided for the moment, even though the compressor no longer provides any pressure so can't get the vehicle to normal height. The tyre compressor has been attached to the air inlet which whilst slow, still raises the vehicle. Anderson connectors in the 2nd row foot-well allow the tyre compressor to be run when needed.