Remapping EU2 motors - a word of warning

[OffTrack]

At the outset I'd like to make it clear this ONLY applies when upgrading a MSB ECU as fitted to 2001MY and earlier Td5's to the later NNN reflashable ECU's.


I've recently picked up a NNN ECU with the intention trying to find a map that suits my needs better than the Bruce Davis chipped MSB ECU I currently have.

I've had a few issues and to help others avoid this problem I'd suggest before giving a vendor your hard earned dollars ask them a simple question:

"Will you use a EU2 base map that is designed for my ECU?"

If the answer is no, "we optimise a EU3 map to suit the EU2", or evasive, walk away. Even if you have to spend more with another vendor - just walk away.

If you don't you are likely to end up with a vendor telling you that a list of faults like this is perfectly normal when using a NNN on a vehicle originally equipped with a MSB ECU:


NANOCOM - TD5ENG.APP - TD5 ENGINE fault file

(4,3) COOLANT TEMPERATURE CIRCUIT, (LOGGED HIGH).
---
(6,3) COOLANT TEMPERATURE CIRCUIT, (CURRENT).
---
(8,1) AIR CONDITIONING FAN DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(8,2) FUEL PUMP DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(8,3) TACHO DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(8,4) GEARBOX/ABS OUTPUT DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(8,5) AIR CONDITIONING CLUTCH DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(8,6) MIL LAMP DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(8,7) GLOWPLUG RELAY DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(8,8) GLOWPLUG LAMP DRIVE OVER TEMPERATURE, (LOGGED).
---
(10,1) AIR CONDITIONING FAN DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (LOGGED).
---
(10,2) FUEL PUMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (LOGGED).
---
(10,3) TACHOMETER DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(10,4) GEARBOX / ABS DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (LOGGED).
---
(10,5) AIR CONDITIONING CLUTCH DRIVE OPEN LOA D, (LOGGED).
---
(10,6) MIL LAMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (LOGGED).
---
(10,7) GLOWPLUG LAMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (LOGGED).
---
(10,8) GLOWPLUG RELAY DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (LOGGED).
---
(12,1) AIR CONDITIONING FAN DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(12,2) FUEL PUMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(12,3) TACHOMETER DRIVE OPEN LOAD.(CURRENT).
---
(12,4) GEARBOX / ABS DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(12,5) AIR CONDITIONING CLUTCH DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(12,6) MIL LAMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(12,7) GLOWPLUG LAMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(12,8) GLOWPLUG RELAY DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,1) AIR CONDITIONING FAN DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,2) FUEL PUMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,3) TACHOMETER DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,4) GEARBOX / ABS DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,5) AIR CONDITIONING CLUTCH DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,6) MIL LAMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,7) GLOWPLUG LAMP DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(14,8) GLOWPLUG RELAY DRIVE OPEN LOAD, (CURRENT).
---
(24,7) PROBLEMS DETECTED WITH AUTO GEARBOX, (CURRENT).
---


plus these gearbox faults


NANOCOM - D2AGB.APP - DISCOII AUTO GEARBOX fault file

CODE P1843
CAN TIMEOUT MONITORING
---
CODE P1842
CAN LEVEL MONITORING
---


Oddly enough when I install a factory map designed for an EU2 motor every single one of those faults disappears. :angel:

So be warned, and ask the question before picking a vendor of your MSB -> NNN upgrade remap.

cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

I've used Td5 Map Editor to copy the tuning differences from the incorrect NNN000130 base map file across to the correct NNN500030. This has transformed the way the remap behaves and I'm pretty impressed with the way it drives.

Fixing this basic issue has also reduced the number of errors reported quite significantly:


NANOCOM - TD5ENG.APP - TD5 ENGINE fault file

(4,3) COOLANT TEMPERATURE CIRCUIT, (LOGGED HIGH).
---
(6,3) COOLANT TEMPERATURE CIRCUIT, (CURRENT).
---
(24,7) PROBLEMS DETECTED WITH AUTO GEARBOX, (CURRENT).
---


and


NANOCOM - D2AGB.APP - DISCOII AUTO GEARBOX fault file

CODE P1843
CAN TIMEOUT MONITORING
---
CODE P1842
CAN LEVEL MONITORING
---


so far better than previous, although I'm not particularly happy given that these faults don't appear when running a factory map, nor with the BD MSB ECU. These appear to be the result of using a EU3 base map rather than one designed for an EU2 motor.

[TD50WA]

"so far better than previous, although I'm not particularly happy given that these faults don't appear when running a factory map, nor with the BD MSB ECU."


So to clarify, the BD ecu is fine? This upgrade was from another vendor and not BD?

I have a 99 I am going to upgrade and obviously want to avoid these issues, so just want to clarify what you are saying.
Who was the other vendor? If you don't want to publicly say, I'd appreciate a pm.

Why did you find it necessary to change from the BD if that is working fine just out of curiosity?

Cheers
Kev

[OffTrack]

"so far better than previous, although I'm not particularly happy given that these faults don't appear when running a factory map, nor with the BD MSB ECU."


So to clarify, the BD ecu is fine? This upgrade was from another vendor and not BD?

I have a 99 I am going to upgrade and obviously want to avoid these issues, so just want to clarify what you are saying.
Who was the other vendor? If you don't want to publicly say, I'd appreciate a pm.

Why did you find it necessary to change from the BD if that is working fine just out of curiosity?

Cheers
Kev

Hi Kev,

Due to the forums name and shame rules I can't say who has done the remap, but it isn't from an .au vendor.

The BD is ok but tends to be very clattery on light throttle openings and is a bit all or nothing from low throttle opening. I'm not sure if it is a stage 1 or 2 map but it's a bit raucous and "boy racer" for my tastes. Maybe I'm getting a bit pedestrian because I've been enjoying the factory map as a contrast.

As I mentioned above now that I've moved the tuned portions to a base map for the correct ECU (NNN500030) the remap is pretty impressive - it's very smooth (and goes like the clappers as a bonus) which I what I was after and doesn't suffer from the general nastiness that I was getting with the .map file as supplied by the vendor.

The ONLY faults I get with the BD rechip AND the NNN with a LR factory map are related to the EGR which has been removed. The other faults are purely the result of the base file being used for the remap. Oddly enough the EGR faults don't come up with the EU3 base file, so this points to "wires being crossed" but this seems to be brushed off by many as "ghost faults". I have read comments on UK forums by Ian from IRB Tuning which seem to indicate these faults may actually be detrimental to performance.

While not quite the quote I was thinking of this makes the point I think,


You can use a later Flash type ECU (part number NNN*****) but you need to program it with files suitable for an earlier EU2 engines. Using the wrong files (i.e. later ones) is not good - there are lots of differences in the engines - not all TD5's are the same!

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=29037&#entry287370

And the other one I was thinking of:


The great misconception is that a Td5 is a Td5 - so will run with any ECU, and any files.... technically it will run, but is not ideal, and not without faults.


http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php'showtopic=32876&st=20#entry319519


I can see WHY the EU3 base files are being used - there are more tables for fuelling, responsiveness and throttle that can be tweaked so it is easier for the tuner to get the desired result. Plus they don't have to worry about learning the ins and outs of two distinctly different map architectures.

cheers
Paul

[CountP]

Offtrack, this information is gold.
You have just saved me a lot of headaches.

Not one of the tuning companies I have spoken to have said anything about this issue when using a remapped NNN ecu to replace a MSB ecu.
What I have picked up is that quite a few companies are resellers and therefore cannot answer questions about the finer details.

I was considering an off the shelf remapped NNN ecu which I have been assured would be compatible but in all likelihood has a EU3 base map.

I am now thinking that having my MSB 're-chipped' is the way to go.

I am also interested why you didn't stick with the BD remapped MSB.

Thanks
Ryan

[OffTrack]

Ryan,

There isn't really an issue IF you use the correct base map for the early engines.

Basically you have 4 types (five in actual fact but lets not complicate things) of ECU, two of which are suitable for the Auto and two suitable for the Manual.

For the Auto you can use either a NNN000130 or NNN500030.

For the Manual you can use either a NNN000120 or NNN500020.

When the MSB ECU's were phased out LR produced map files that allow the NNN ECU's to work correctly with the EU2/10P engines. These can be generated by the Nanocom map wizard for example.

Realistically there is one map for each ECU that you want to use as a base for remapping:
NNN000120: sttdp009-sthde021.map
NNN000130: sutdp012-suhde036.map
NNN500020: sttdp010-sthde021.map
NNN500030: sutdp014-suhde036.map

Each of these will allow a NNN ECU to work with zero faults on an EU2 engine.

The only reason you get faults is if the tuner is using the EU3 map with adjustments to make the injectors work with the earlier engines. It won't be an issue if you buy a remap from company that knows how to work with the EU2 maps.

I've been told by other members that you need to be very careful about exhaust gas temps if you are running an adapted EU3 maps.

cheers
Paul

[Tombie]

You mean like my spreadsheet...

http://www.users.on.net/~tombraider/TRT/Vehicle_Modifications/Entries/2010/4/3_EU2_Map_Files_List_files/EU2_Map_list.pdf

[OffTrack]

You mean like my spreadsheet...

http://www.users.on.net/~tombraider/TRT/Vehicle_Modifications/Entries/2010/4/3_EU2_Map_Files_List_files/EU2_Map_list.pdf

Yes, like that one.

There is a excel posted to AULRO based on the Testbook database which is possibly more comprehensive but your spreadsheet is to the point. :D

BTW are you still selling BAS remaps or do I need to talk to them direct now?

cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

This is a post from Pete Bell of Bell Auto Services from a few years ago re: the avalanche of errors on remapped ecus.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/63856-fault-codes-after-ecu-upgrade.html#post819024


There are generaly 3 reasons fof these faults to be there.

1st the faults do actualy existin the ecu

2nd Or are part of the tipical TD5 ghost fault codes that do come and go as and when on some cars.

3rd and most likley IF they were not present before tuning, The mapping done to the ecu is WRONG for the ecu part number and a generic (one fits all) mapping had been done.
Its not a problem if the car is running good but in some cases the conversion of mapping does cause pages of faults like this.

Regards Pete

[Rick Fischer]

All of these problems can be avoided with a real good European strap-on!, and at a fraction of the cost. Been there done that :)

[OffTrack]

Having taking the D2 for a quick trip down to the shops it seems my map copy has created other problems. The D2 is chugging/huffing on the over-run so something is not right.

It's back to the factory map for me as there is no way I'm going to run this map.

[CountP]

All of these problems can be avoided with a real good European strap-on!, and at a fraction of the cost. Been there done that :)

Tell me more, hopefully its not the 'strap-on' that comes to mind.

[OffTrack]

Tell me more, hopefully its not the 'strap-on' that comes to mind.

I suppose if you were having "performance" issues a strap-on could be a solution but it's not quite the same as the real thing.

[OffTrack]

The two faults on the gearbox EAT seem to be caused by loss of communication while reflashing the engine ECU and haven't returned since I cleared them.

The gearbox fault logged in the ECU still returns after clearing faults on both ECU's so that one has me baffled.

The tuner has been in touch and reckons he can solve all the issues, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

cheers
Paul

[onesilop]

hmmm your situation looks really familiar to me,

I have a 99 defender and put in an NNN I was not able to download the map because of some comms issues with my Nannocom. So the map vendor generated one for me from my VIN.

Just looked at the map I have and it is based on the svlne007-svtnp005 ECU map I am thinking this is for a later defender.

Are the additional data points you are talking about the ones in this attached image? (Standard map VS Remapped)

[OffTrack]

The remaps don't add data, they adjust the existing curves to achieve better performance. It requires a pretty in depth knowledge of how the ECU operates to do this effectively, and the guys who do know definitely aren't telling how it's done ;)

The screen shot you posted is showing two different tables from two different base maps. Squinting a bit the top base map is sthde021-sttdp009.map which is for a NNN000120 fitted to a Euro/Aus EU2 manual Discovery, the second (your remap) is built on svlne007-svtnp005.map which is the factory map for a NNN000120 fitted to a Euro/Aus EU3 Defender 90.
Because you are comparing EU2 and EU3 maps there is no correlation between the table numbers or addresses. The top one looks like it is the table for idle speed, and the bottom one is marked "reference cut low range" which performs a different function - from trying to decipher the Italiaglish in Map Editor it appears to be related to fuel and is also known as the "torque curve".

The EU2 maps are significantly different to the EU3 maps. Even at first glance you'll see the EU2 map has around 77 tables, whereas a EU3 map has something like 115 tables. The EU2 has 3 fuel map tables which each of which are a 17x17 matrix, whereas the EU3 has 4 fuel map tables each of which are a 17x10 matrix. The EU2 map appears to have single throttle response table, whereas the EU3 has separate throttle response tables for hi and lo range. This makes it substantially easier to tweak and fine tune the EU3 maps.

To fully understand what the map tables do you'd need to reverse engineer the code to identify which inputs are being monitored and what aspects of the performance are being adjusted. You'll see Td5 Map Editor only identifies a handful of the tables and only for the EU3 maps, and even then there is a lot of uncertainty what precisely is controlled by the parameters.

There is professional tuning software that would appear to give the user access to more in depth information about map functionality, but you are looking at products that start at $2500 and head north from there.

cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

A little update. The vendor has been in touch and has offered a refund if we don't get the faults sorted out, so that makes me feel a lot better about the exercise.

While looking for some information on how to modify the VIN programmed into the ECU I came across a UK forum post made by someone who had the same combination of coolant sensor and gearbox comms faults after upgrading to a NNN ECU. The poster had finally fixed the faults by replacing the existing AAP sensor in the air box with a 4 wire version from the EU3 motor. The EU3 AAP contains an additional temperature sensor attached to C0158-30 which is shown in the RAVE pinout table as "Not Connected". HOWEVER in the text description for the AAP mentions that the temp sensor is in fact connected to pin 30.

I had been wondering about what effect the missing temp sender would have, and then it dawned on me that the density of a gas is related to temperature and pressure. The IAT/MAP sensor on the intake manifold contains both pressure and temp sensors, so fuelling strategy must already be partially based on intake charge density. So I have to assume that the EU3 motors are using the difference in density between air box and intake manifold rather than pressure differential.

What this means for the EU2 motor running a EU3 map I'm not sure, but I think we can assume that a default value is being substituted for air box temperature, which will potentially result in less than optimal fuelling at ambient temperatures above or below the default. The forum post mentioned above indicates this could have a significant effect on fuel consumption.

Why the lack of temp sensor results in a Coolant Temp fault is a bit curious - it may be that the fault codes are lumped together and possibly a testbook system can differentiate based on additional information.

So what is the fix? We have two obvious options, first is to use an EU2 base map and avoid the issue in the first place, and second is to retro fit the later 4 wire AAP and give the ECU the missing information.

Retrofitting the 4 wire sensor is definitely doable. It does also require replacing the plug at the air box and running an additional wire back to the ECU. The pin at the ECU is unused on the EU2 motors so it is a simple matter of crimping on the correct type of pin. It was mentioned that the later AAP sensor also requires a different lid on the airbox and Microcat does list a different part numbers for EU3 lid. The post reported a substantial improvement (~4mpg) in fuel economy after this change was made.

The AAP sensor is around £80 ex vat, and the airbox lid is £27 ex. vat plus shipping. You'd also need to factor in ECU connector pin and seal, and also find a source for the 4 wire AAP plug. I'm guessing all up this will cost in the region of $150-200 to do.

See:
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/1357802-post10.html
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/1413599-post19.html
http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/1363518-post17.html
for posts documenting installing the later 4 wire AAP.

ECU connector pins and seals can be found on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/landrover-connectors/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686


cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

Being a bit dense I missed that RAVE actually describes the role of the AAP temp sensor:


The sensor also supplies a voltage between 0v and 5v proportional to ambient temperature. The ECM uses this signal
for the following functions:
l Exhaust gas over temperature protection.
l Turbocharger overspeed protection.

So no prizes for guessing why an EU2 motor running an EU3 map and 3-wire AAP will tend to show high exhaust gas temperatures.

I've made the decision to retro-fit the 4-wire AAP as this solves the EU3 map problem and is backwards compatible with the MSB ECU because the addition wire is treated as "Not Connected".

[onesilop]

Being a bit dense I missed that RAVE actually describes the role of the AAP temp sensor:



So no prizes for guessing why an EU2 motor running an EU3 map and 3-wire AAP will tend to show high exhaust gas temperatures.

I've made the decision to retro-fit the 4-wire AAP as this solves the EU3 map problem and is backwards compatible with the MSB ECU because the addition wire is treated as "Not Connected".

Would this be similar on a TD5 defender?

[OffTrack]

Would this be similar on a TD5 defender?

Possibly, but I couldn't say with any degree of confidence. If you have access to the wiring diagrams for the EU3 Defender you could check to see if there is an AAP and how many wires are connected.

edit. The Defender setup looks significantly different to the Disco, so you'd need pre-2002MY diagrams to compare differences.

[strangy]

This is good stuff Paul.

Can we get this in the "Good Oil" please Pedro?

cheers

[OffTrack]

The tuner emailed through a EU2 .map file for the D2 last night, which proves they are capable of doing so if needed. I would point out that firm in question has an excellent reputation, and my concern has alway been that an EU3 .map had been supplied for an earlier EU2 motor. The fact they can supply an EU2 map if the customer demands eliminates my concerns about the products they supply for the EU2 engined D2. :cool:

But of course, despite all the occult preparations and sacrifices to the gods of ECU flashing, the Nanocom froze in the final 10% of the upload and the ECU is bricked again. :angel:

cheers
Paul

[td5inside]

Hi,

Hopefully I can give you guys some of my experience regarding this subject, although almost everything was said.

Again, sorry for not writing absolute correct language but, as some of you know, English is not my mother language.

Main differences between Eu2 and Eu3 are the throttle settings, the injector pressure and of course the AAP sensor.

An NNN ECU and EU3 map has more accurate settings and readings than old msb units and eu2 maps. That´s why you will always achieve more performance with EU3. Trying to make an EU2 engine “look and behave” like an EU3 (if we can put it this way) is always a difficult task that needs constant adjustments till it´s perfect, specially when you are using nanocom – with rovacom is a bit easyer, because it allow us to match the software variant with fuel tune id.Of course, in this process some “ghost” errors can pop up in the ECU, and they should be looked with attention and of course see which ones are a reason to worry about.

Regarding the AAP sensor offtrack had the subject very well covered.

Using an NNN ECU EU3 in a post 2002 car with a 3 wire AAP sensor will give you non accurate atmospheric pressure readings. The ECU will have inputs 10/15% above real. For example: if we are in a place with 950mba the ECU will have inputs of around 1070mba. 10% to 15% seems to be a small difference, but in fact this is the difference of the car being in a place 600 m above sea-level or in a place at 1000m... big difference!

3 Wires:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/1165.jpg

4 wires:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/1166.jpg


What happens is that the oxygen concentration at 600m above the sea-level is a lot different from the oxygen concentration at 1000m. So, the ECU will tell the engine to inject more diesel in order to make a good combustion. This will make the engine to work with more fuel then needed, specially when your car is at higher places.

Just a quick note to say that readings with the nanocom are in kpa/cm2 so you will have to x10 that number to have mbar readings.

Differences between AAP sensor pre and post 2002:
- In both cases they receive the 5v signal from the pin8 of the ECU conector – Pink/purple cable
- In both cases they receive power from the signal - Pin 30 of the ecu – Pink/black cable
- In both cases the outsignal for the AAP sensor is a White/yellow cable wich goes to de pin 10 of the ECU
The main difference is the Green/Blue cable - pin 31 of the ECU – This output signal gives information regarding air temperature and egt. So, with a 4 wire AAP sensor, the ECU receives to different signals from the sensor. These are data for the discovery. Defender is a bit difference in some parts, most regarding to some cable derivation to the IAT I believe.

Additional Information:
The 4 wire AAP sensor is LR P/N MHK100820 and is the same sensor form the new mini, so any BMW dealership can source you that at half the price - part number 0872648
If needed, there are connectors available here:
Simtek (UK) - For All Your Automotive Connectors (http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtekuk.co.uk/info.php?p=12&pno=0&pid=226073&cat=1624&ack=9&search=&sought)=

Hope this info is useful.

Regards,
José

[OffTrack]

Hi José

Thanks for posting this information. It really helps understanding the finer points between the EU2 and EU3 remaps.

So it seems that if you want to simply replace the MSB ECU on a EU2 motor with minimal fuss, you need to run a EU2 map.

On the other hand if you want the best optimised map you need to look to a EU3 base map plus AAP upgraded to 4-wire and throttle pedal to a 3-way version.

cheers
Paul

[Mundy]

I read all this with absolute fascination, even though most of it was over my head. Thankyou to all you learned people - I am in awe. Just a couple of little questions, what ECU, EU, AAP and throttle pedal versions does an MY04 TD5 manual have? Where can I read more of what and how the ECU works to manage the performance of the engine?

[bob10]

My heads spinning, I really need to read up on this, but then again, at my age, perhaps I should have bought a series 111, Bob :eek::D

[Tombie]

I read all this with absolute fascination, even though most of it was over my head. Thankyou to all you learned people - I am in awe. Just a couple of little questions, what ECU, EU, AAP and throttle pedal versions does an MY04 TD5 manual have? Where can I read more of what and how the ECU works to manage the performance of the engine?

EU3 NNN500020 or NNN500120

4 wire AAP

3 wire pedal

:angel:

[OffTrack]

I read all this with absolute fascination, even though most of it was over my head. Thankyou to all you learned people - I am in awe. Just a couple of little questions, what ECU, EU, AAP and throttle pedal versions does an MY04 TD5 manual have? Where can I read more of what and how the ECU works to manage the performance of the engine?

Like tombie says.

Unfortunately there isn't really any info on the inner workings of the Td5 ECU's beyond what is in the RAVE Td5 engine management section.

As a small update I've been running the EU2 remap for the past few days, and even as a starting point it's impressively well balanced and smooths out a fair bit of the vibrations I was getting before up changes. I like far more than the DPL chip for every day driving.


Cheers
Paul

[Redback]

What amazes me is the fact the tuners know an EU3 map won't work on early D2s when you stick an NNN ECU in with an upgraded EU3 file.

When we finally got ours sorted, the tuner sent us a new file that was EU2 based, suddenly the car drove better, the smoke was reduced and all the ghost faults disappeared.

One thing we also found out in all this, DON'T go for the biggest file(most power) you can, they don't work on the early EU2 files, regardless of what they say.

Our ECU was a NNN500020 ECU that replaced our old MSB ECU, this is now in another forum members car and he (and his wife) are very pleased with the power it gives them over the BD chipped ECU.


I reckon this is probably some of the best info on tuning ECUs I've read on this forum and I'd like the thank Offtrack for posting it:BigThumb:

I only wish he did it 3yrs ago;)

Baz.

[spudboy]

So for my 2001 TD5 130 Defender, I would have a 'pre-NNN' ECU - is that right? An MSB unflashable one?

If looking for an upgrade - I need to stick to an EU2 based program.

Or, If I go for an EU3 program I need to upgrade a sensor (AAP?? not sure what this is, but will Google it) and get a new throttle pedal. Is that correct?

Thanks
David

[Tombie]

Its been a strong learning curve for many tuners and enthusiasts as well.

We learn more and more about products as we continue to mess around with them!...

Offtracks posts are very useful to the AULRO community.. I applaud his effort.

[mturri]

So for my 2001 TD5 130 Defender, I would have a 'pre-NNN' ECU - is that right? An MSB unflashable one?

Defender
If VIN prior to 2A622423 then ECU is MSB type (OTP, non-flashable)
If VIN post 2A622424 then ECU is NNN type (flashable)

Discovery (Manual or Auto)
If VIN prior to 2A736339 then ECU is MSB type (OTP, non-flashable)
If VIN post 2A736340 then ECU is NNN type (flashable)

Rgds
Matt

[TD50WA]

'tis the dark arts for sure......begone thee evil one.....:eek:

Ok....to the less informed, technophobes like myself, what, and where is the AAP?

It seems that if you want to do this the proper way and get the best value for your upgrades, then doing the whole thing is best.

Cheers all.
Kev

[mturri]

EU3 NNN500020 or NNN500120

4 wire AAP

3 wire pedal

At the risk of coming across a bit pedantic... shouldn't it be NNN000120 instead of NNN500120?

[Redback]

So for my 2001 TD5 130 Defender, I would have a 'pre-NNN' ECU - is that right? An MSB unflashable one?

If looking for an upgrade - I need to stick to an EU2 based program.

Or, If I go for an EU3 program I need to upgrade a sensor (AAP?? not sure what this is, but will Google it) and get a new throttle pedal. Is that correct?

Thanks
David

The Ambient Air Pressure sensor, it's in your airbox, they are not cheap either, stick with the EU2 file, it will work out much cheaper.

Baz.

[Tombie]

At the risk of coming across a bit pedantic... shouldn't it be NNN000120 instead of NNN500120?


Erm... Yeah... My apologies..... :)

[OffTrack]

The Ambient Air Pressure sensor, it's in your airbox, they are not cheap either, stick with the EU2 file, it will work out much cheaper.

Baz.

Good advice :)

Updating the older D2's to the 3-track accelerator and 4-wire AAP probably adds $200-400 to the cost of doing an upgrade.

After a bit of investigation I think the 3-track pedal is actually plug and play. Despite the indications of the 2000MY wiring diagrams that a wire was missing, the all the connections actually seem to be in place. Second hand pedal: $60.00

The 4-wire AAP requires using a different version of the air box lid - they are £29.00 new so pointless getting robbed by wreckers on this (it's a bit like the battery cover which is cheaper to buy genuine from local parts suppliers than from the wreckers). The 4-wire sensor is about half the price of the 3-wire version if you buy genuine. Halve that again if you buy the Mini part.

The 4-pin connector Jose linked to is available locally at comparable cost but has a MOQ of 5 pieces. I'll have four spare if anyone is looking for one. :angel:

cheers
Paul

[Tombie]

Good advice :)

Updating the older D2's to the 3-track accelerator and 4-wire AAP probably adds $200-400 to the cost of doing an upgrade.

After a bit of investigation I think the 3-track pedal is actually plug and play. Despite the indications of the 2000MY wiring diagrams that a wire was missing, the all the connections actually seem to be in place. Second hand pedal: $60.00

The 4-wire AAP requires using a different version of the air box lid - they are £29.00 new so pointless getting robbed by wreckers on this (it's a bit like the battery cover which is cheaper to buy genuine from local parts suppliers than from the wreckers). The 4-wire sensor is about half the price of the 3-wire version if you buy genuine. Halve that again if you buy the Mini part.

The 4-pin connector Jose linked to is available locally at comparable cost but has a MOQ of 5 pieces. I'll have four spare if anyone is looking for one. :angel:

cheers
Paul

I'll buy a couple from you Paul :cool:

[bob10]

I must thank Offtrack for posting this information, I'm printing it out and will spend some time trying to get an understanding of the subject, if only to get a basic idea in how the system works. So, thanks, Offtrack, for getting my tired old brain creaking into life, [ it's all those rusted cogs] Bob

[Disco W.A]

The 4-wire AAP requires using a different version of the air box lid - they are £29.00 new so pointless getting robbed by wreckers on this (it's a bit like the battery cover which is cheaper to buy genuine from local parts suppliers than from the wreckers).

cheers
Paul[/QUOTE]



Paul

Can you please give me the part number for the later air box lid?

The local dealer can't break it down from the complete air box assy

Thanks Roger

[OffTrack]

Paul

Can you please give me the part number for the later air box lid?

The local dealer can't break it down from the complete air box assy

Thanks Roger

phc000020 is the pn# for the eu3 lid.

[facimus_et_frangimus]

I recently got a Bruce Davis remap on my 2004 D2 and am pretty impressed. More power througout the rev range with a dramatic increase above 2500rpm (where before there was almost no power gain and seemed to rev unnesessarily for no gain above 2800). Good service and good knowledge, fuel consumption is slightly better but now has a whistle from the exhaust?

Maybe you could just ask Bruce to modify the map to your specifications.

[OffTrack]

I recently got a Bruce Davis remap on my 2004 D2 and am pretty impressed. More power througout the rev range with a dramatic increase above 2500rpm (where before there was almost no power gain and seemed to rev unnesessarily for no gain above 2800). Good service and good knowledge, fuel consumption is slightly better but now has a whistle from the exhaust?

Maybe you could just ask Bruce to modify the map to your specifications.

Glad you have had a good experience. What you are describing is pretty much sums up what I dislike about the Davis chip. I'm looking for better balance and distribution through the rev range, rather than buckets of power above 2500rpm.

[Tombie]

Glad you have had a good experience. What you are describing is pretty much sums up what I dislike about the Davis chip. I'm looking for better balance and distribution through the rev range, rather than buckets of power above 2500rpm.

They all like it till they get offroad and try to technical drive something and get.......nothing then.............................Wham.....

:D:o

[Mundy]

I have a Davis chip (2004 D2a manual) and find I now have "buckets" of power over 1500 compared to the OEM version and better at take off (say 1000RPM). I don't think there's any chip that's going to give a huge improvement until the turbo spools up but i'd love to know of one. The OEM version seemed completely gutless till 1700RPM which the Davis chip has reduced to 1500.

I have several friends with Hiluxs, which don't seem to have the apparent turbo lag our Discos have. Why is that? Surely not just the low end gearing?

[Tombie]

Luxs have VNT / VVT

Drop a VNT on a TD5, map it and smile

[OffTrack]

connectors available here:
Simtek (UK) - For All Your Automotive Connectors (http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtekuk.co.uk/info.php?p=12&pno=0&pid=226073&cat=1624&ack=9&search=&sought)=



Before anyone else wastes their money - that is the wrong connector, as I've just discovered.

It's wrong width overall, the pin spacing is wrong, and the housing doesn't have the cutout which would allow the plug to mate with the pins even if other 2 factors were right. In other words wrong, wrong, wrong.


This one looks more like it but I'll try to confirm before randomly ordering product:
http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtekuk.co.uk/info.php?p=12&pid=2644147&ack=9
At least the keying on the body looks correct, so that is a start.

ADD:

The above product (Metri-Pack 150 Pull to Seat) is being phased out by Delphi, but they have introduced a more modern replacement part using more conventional push to seat design which will mate with the 4 pin AAP sensor. The replacement is showing up in searches as a Harley Davidson part. ;) At this stage I haven't found a source I'd actually place an order with.

ADD2:

In the end I had to order the Metri-Pack 150 as I wasn't able to find a trustworthy source that didn't have a MOQ of 380 units.

I got mine from here:
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/109_130_132/products_id/836

Ended up being $18 by the time shipping and low order fees were added in.

These "pull to seat" connectors require passing the wire through the connector, adding the crimp connector, then pulling the connector back into the housing to seat.

[Disco W.A]

[QUOTE=OffTrack;1783838]Before anyone else wastes their money - that is the wrong connector





Thanks Paul I was wondering if I had the wrong plug or sensor


Roger

[OffTrack]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=52549&stc=1&d=1351020475

Definitely a case of the wrong plug.

I thought I'd try a 5mm vacuum connector cap on the EGR outlet. I'm not sure it's the best solution but I'm going to have trouble removing without cutting off so it's probably ok.

[bronson]

Luxs have VNT / VVT

Drop a VNT on a TD5, map it and smile
Sorry just trying to work out what Luxs is after doing a google search??

cheers
Bronson

[OffTrack]

Hi-Lux.

I'll have to disinfect the keyboard after typing that...

[OffTrack]

ADD2:

In the end I had to order the Metri-Pack 150 as I wasn't able to find a trustworthy source that didn't have a MOQ of 380 units.

I got mine from here:
Home » Shop » Connectors / Harnesses » Delphi / Packard » Connector Kits » GM Delphi / Packard - 4 way metripack 150.2 sealed male connector Kit for iac, black (http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/product_info.php/cPath/109_130_132/products_id/836)

Ended up being $18 by the time shipping and low order fees were added in.

These "pull to seat" connectors require passing the wire through the connector, adding the crimp connector, then pulling the connector back into the housing to seat.

Just got the plug in the mail. It is a correct fit to the sensor.

cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

A quick report back from the front...

I've finished the install of the 4-wire AAP. The biggest PITA of retro fitting is adding it to the existing loom. I need up with the battery box out and most of the loom pulled back to the intake side and it was still a job and a half. I'd done this a few days ago and it took about 3 hours from beginning to end.

The final step of hooking up the plug and fitting the new lid was a doddle.

I can confirm that hooking up the 4-wire AAP clears out the last of the "ghost faults" relating to Coolant Temp Circuit. The EGR fault is still not showing up. Not sure this is a big issue however.

The gearbox fault is simply the result of the auto ECU losing communication with the engine ecu during reflashing and doesn't return after clearing faults on both engine and gearbox ecus.

NANOCOM - TD5ENG.APP - TD5 ENGINE fault file

(4,3) COOLANT TEMPERATURE CIRCUIT, (LOGGED HIGH).
---
(6,3) COOLANT TEMPERATURE CIRCUIT, (CURRENT).
---
(24,7) PROBLEMS DETECTED WITH AUTO GEARBOX, (CURRENT).
---


cheers
Paul

[Nova]

Can I ask a question, I was thinking about this the other day.

Does this mean that you could take a MSB ecu, unsolder the chip, re-solder a flashable chip and "make" a NNN ecu?

Cheers,
Nova

[mturri]

Does this mean that you could take a MSB ecu, unsolder the chip, re-solder a flashable chip and "make" a NNN ecu?

No you cannot. MSB type ECUs are not suited to handle the map read / write process.

Rather than re-soldering a new chip just solder a socket, then you can pull the chip out anytime you want and "reflash" it using an EPROM programmer (e.g. Willem). Alternatively you could have multiple chips with different maps each.

[td5inside]

No you cannot. MSB type ECUs are not suited to handle the map read / write process.

Rather than re-soldering a new chip just solder a socket, then you can pull the chip out anytime you want and "reflash" it using an EPROM programmer (e.g. Willem). Alternatively you could have multiple chips with different maps each.

Something like this:

http://imageshack.us/a/img534/619/imag0551f.jpg

[OffTrack]

In theory you can do it. One of the SAAB Trionic ecu's is similar to the msb. A couple of individuals have developed software mods which allow the ecu to be reflashed using obd port. It would require changes to the ecu firmware and specially written software to perform the flash upload.

There has been 6-7 years work done by the Saab tuning community to get to the stage where this is possible. In comparison the Td5 only really has one tool that is remotely comparable - td5 map editor. Google "t7 tuning suite" if you want to see the kind of tools that have been developed as a community effort!

[Nova]

No problems, just thought if the chip was the only restriction to re-flashing then soldering on another chip would be easy. Should have thought if it was that easy it would have been done already.

Cheers,
Nova

[OffTrack]

Having taking the D2 for a quick trip down to the shops it seems my map copy has created other problems. The D2 is chugging/huffing on the over-run so something is not right.


I have since discovered the chugging/huffing is normal for the EU3 motors, and is nothing to worry about. Td5 Auto's with the EU3 motor exhibit this behaviour - it is something like the revs hunting slightly on overrun.

I still find it a bit disconcerting, but I'm getting used to it ;)

[OffTrack]

The extra wire for the 4-wire AAP fits in the top row of the red connector. The correct slot is 6th from the left, which is empty in this pic.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/106.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58333978@N04/8222250787/)

Back view of the connector with the additional wire inserted. It's the green wire between pink/black and yellow.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/107.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58333978@N04/8222251259/)

To get a clean as possible install I unwrapped the existing loom and the rewrapped with the additional wire.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/108.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58333978@N04/8223325968/)

The battery and battery box were out and I was still had the bulk of the loom to do. I think at this point I realised I didn't have time to be taking pics and just got stuck in. :eek: The whole section across the front of the motor to the AAP, waste gate modulator, etc, etc was rewrapped.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/109.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58333978@N04/8223326406/)

And the end result is the additional wiring for the AAP is completely routed within the main harness.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/110.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/58333978@N04/8222280849/)

[OffTrack]

I've now been running one of Jose's modified EU3 remaps for a couple of weeks and about 1000km much of which has been country/highway driving. I'm really happy with the result. It's not as aggressive as the Davis chip - at my request - and is really smooth to drive. It's got a lot more poke than the stock map and it pulls like a train on highway hills. :D

The retro-fitting the 4-wire AAP cleared up the last of the fault codes as reported earlier, and I haven't seen any other issues.

Being a curious bugger I've had a look at what the base map is and was a little surprised to find it was a ROW non-ECD3 EU3 motor. From what I can determine these were originally used on the South African delivered D2a's. The interesting thing was that these D2a's came from the factory without the EGR gear installed, hence the "non-ECD3".

Checking out the non-ECD3 vs ECD3 factory maps they are identical in terms of fuel maps, however there is one table which Td5MapEditor shows as "unknown" that is RADICALLY different. I haven't been able to find out what this controls as yet. Note this is comparing factory Euro and ROW maps not factory vs tuned.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=53782&stc=1&d=1353994842

Regardless of what this table controls, it seems like using a non-EGR base map is a masterstroke. The clatter that appeared when I removed the EGR gear last year is now gone, and the D2 is much, much, much more civilised. :cool:

All-in-all it's been a bit more of an expensive exercise than I'd planned for, but the outcome has been well worth the money spent.

cheers
Paul

[CountP]

Paul,
I see you have BD chipped ecu for sale. I thought I would post this here as others may benefit from it.

I have keenly been following your posts with regard to the EU2 and EU3 base maps and using a South African D2a EU3 base map. I am actually going back to SA for the month of December and was hoping to speak to a few companies there that do remapping.

WRT to your BD ecu, if I get this ecu set up for my vehicle and then for some reason want to go back to my std ecu, is it as easy as just swopping the ecu's, without the need for a Nanocom. So besides the ecu essentailly nothing on the vehicle changes.

Firstly the reason I ask is because I don't have a Nanocom, so I would be paying someone to set up the remapped ecu. (I am on the Gold Coast.)

And secondly I am in two minds whether I should just leave mine std (99 Td5). Somehow I am not feeling the improvements everyone else seems to be. I removed the centre silencer and can't say I felt any improvement.

I also removed the egr and it made the engine feel a lot rougher not just at the usual 2250rpm so I put the egr back in. There was a marginal performance improvement but then I was revving it higher than usual.
With the egr back its back to how it has always been.

I also have the go faster blue silicone turbo hoses :cool: and gave the wastegate actuator 1.5 turns which made a noticeable improvement.
Cleaning the intake manifold sensor also helped.

Thanks
Ryan

[Disco EMU]

is it as easy as just swopping the ecu's, without the need for a Nanocom


Yes. Once you've read the injector codes and saved the file ... you can swap back at any time. Although ... I don't think you will.


I don't have a Nanocom, so I would be paying someone to set up the remapped ecu.

I'm sure another member on here can help you out ... after all, that's what this forum is about! All you've gotta do is ask.




I also removed the egr and it made the engine feel a lot rougher not just at the usual 2250rpm so I put the egr back in. There was a marginal performance improvement but then I was revving it higher than usual.
With the egr back its back to how it has always been.


Removing the EGR is about engine longevity ... not performance.

Cheers

Craig

[OffTrack]

Hi Ryan,

The ECU has been sold already.

The BD ECU was a MSB unit so would have been fine with any 99-01MY Td5 Auto Disco. Most of what this thread is about is converting from a MSB ECU to the later reflashable NNN ECU's.

Once an ECU is configured for the motor you can swap between stock and remapped ECUs without any dramas.

Mods like muffler and egr are pretty marginal at best. Rechipping or remapping is in a different league as it changes the way the engine is fuelled. A stage 1 chip or map will transform the way the vehicle drives.

cheers
Paul

[Disco EMU]

Call Phil at TRS in Adelaide.
For $600 and a swap-over ... you can have a chipped MSB ECU. (Smooth delivery of torque too) and if you think you'll need it ... for another $400 you can keep your old one.
Just gotta find someone with Nanocom to help you out.
Do it!

[jakeslouw]

A lot of this info is comparable to petrol ECU technology: obviously, the diesel pumps work differently, but a lot of the sensors are very similar and provide similar inputs for the same AF reasons.

Thanks for the thread.

[Mikey]

Hi Paul (offtrack), thanks for the work you have put in on this subject, most appreciated. All I have to do now is go back to the start and collate the information you have provided into a reference for doing mine.

That brings me to a question I have for you. I have a 99 D2 TD5 Auto with SLS and ACE. My question is. will I have any issues with the ACE or SLS systems being incompatible with the NNN ecu that you know of?

I know they are separate systems but I do not know enough about how the different systems work together to make an informed assumption.

I would love to get a NNN into my vehicle to make it easier to try different maps to get the most out of my vehicle.

I have the EGR removed, BD remap (not sure what stage and they cannot tell me), silicone hoses, different exhaust manifold, allisport intercooler, vnt and boost box (Fabulous), different exhaust etc.

Regards.
Mike

[td5inside]

Hi Paul (offtrack), thanks for the work you have put in on this subject, most appreciated. All I have to do now is go back to the start and collate the information you have provided into a reference for doing mine.

That brings me to a question I have for you. I have a 99 D2 TD5 Auto with SLS and ACE. My question is. will I have any issues with the ACE or SLS systems being incompatible with the NNN ecu that you know of?

I know they are separate systems but I do not know enough about how the different systems work together to make an informed assumption.

I would love to get a NNN into my vehicle to make it easier to try different maps to get the most out of my vehicle.

I have the EGR removed, BD remap (not sure what stage and they cannot tell me), silicone hoses, different exhaust manifold, allisport intercooler, vnt and boost box (Fabulous), different exhaust etc.

Regards.
Mike

Hi,

SLS and BCU are differente command units, so you will be fine.
You just have to look for an NNN ecu ending in #30 - nnn500030 or nnn000130 - wich are for the auto.

Regards,

[Franz]

Hi Paul (offtrack), thanks for the work you have put in on this subject, most appreciated. All I have to do now is go back to the start and collate the information you have provided into a reference for doing mine.

That brings me to a question I have for you. I have a 99 D2 TD5 Auto with SLS and ACE. My question is. will I have any issues with the ACE or SLS systems being incompatible with the NNN ecu that you know of?

I know they are separate systems but I do not know enough about how the different systems work together to make an informed assumption.

I would love to get a NNN into my vehicle to make it easier to try different maps to get the most out of my vehicle.

I have the EGR removed, BD remap (not sure what stage and they cannot tell me), silicone hoses, different exhaust manifold, allisport intercooler, vnt and boost box (Fabulous), different exhaust etc.

Regards.
Mike
I have neither of these functions but do know they are not controlled by the ECU. Not sure which but they are controlled by either the BCU or the SLABS units.

[OffTrack]

While it isn't an issue in terms of moving from MSB to NNN (D2a's have the same range of non-engine features as D2's after all!!) there is communication between most ECU's. It's not a matter of "control" but of passing information.

Both ACE and SLABS use data from the ECU:

C0658-19 (ECM Tacho output) -> C0647-19 (ACE Engine Speed input)
C0658-32 (ECM ABS output) -> C0504-10 (SLABS Engine data input: throttle position, torque, engine type, gearbox type)

cheers
Paul

[Neavesie]

Great info here. Im glad that a lot of confusion has been sorted out here. This is really one of the best posts I have come across .
So to sum it all up very simply, this is my understanding the outcome:


If upgrading from MSB to a NNN ECU, the ECU has to be specific for an Auto or a Manual.
An EU2 map is used as a direct map upgrade.
An EU3 map requires some slight modifications (4 wire AAP, 3-track accelerator, airbox lid, 4 pin connector and run a new wire.)


Just a couple of questions.
So how much roughly would the actual modification cost for EU3 map setup?
Do any of the maps result in the same or similar torque output? It sounds to me that delivery of power from idle to cruising speed n the road is the main difference.

All that being said what map vendor would you recommend for HEAVY towing? or are they all so different? Happy to get private messages about this if anyone feels they might name and shame.

[gavinwibrow]

Others will comment as they see fit, but José at TD5Inside (posts on this site) did mine specifically for towing whilst keeping an eye on economy. They did have a special price for aulro members and if you have access to a nanocom for installation (worth buying one almost for this alone) its cheaper again. The best part is that their after sales service is A1 - they will keep trying remaps if you're not satisfied, plus they race LRs so know their stuff.

[OffTrack]

Can't comment on towing, but I wouldn't worry about the EU2 -> EU3 update too much.

Stick with an EU2 compatible remap, and spend the money on an uprated intercooler. The intercooler will help keep EGT's under control while you are towing and give you an improvement in torque/power.

cheers
Paul

[pibby]

have gone home to tassie and picked up my nanocom and plugged her in. i have written to jose and was going to send my map to him when i came across this post of his. i'm kinda thinking it explains why my AAP reads around 116-118 even when i was parked on the beach.

so before i send my map off to him i want to make sure i resolve the AAP reading. there are some faults coming up relating to coolant as mentioned earlier in thread.

the vehicle is a 2000 td5 defender, it is running an auto via a compushift. the AAP sensor is a 3 wire and i can't see any electrickery on the boost modulator??? like the disco td5. the pedal appears to be a 2 track, well when i set it to 3 track it doens't work so i'm assuming that's conclusive.

the motor is from a 2003/4 disco and is stamped june 2003 and starts with 16P.

it has a NNN ecu in it.

if it is the later motor (EU3 i'm assuming) does it have different injectors and/or FPR so i have to put the 3 track accelerator and 4 wire AAP in?

or do i get the EU2 map and it makes no diff as injectors & fpr are the same?

thanks,
brett.






Hi,

Hopefully I can give you guys some of my experience regarding this subject, although almost everything was said.

Again, sorry for not writing absolute correct language but, as some of you know, English is not my mother language.

Main differences between Eu2 and Eu3 are the throttle settings, the injector pressure and of course the AAP sensor.

An NNN ECU and EU3 map has more accurate settings and readings than old msb units and eu2 maps. That´s why you will always achieve more performance with EU3. Trying to make an EU2 engine “look and behave” like an EU3 (if we can put it this way) is always a difficult task that needs constant adjustments till it´s perfect, specially when you are using nanocom – with rovacom is a bit easyer, because it allow us to match the software variant with fuel tune id.Of course, in this process some “ghost” errors can pop up in the ECU, and they should be looked with attention and of course see which ones are a reason to worry about.

Regarding the AAP sensor offtrack had the subject very well covered.

Using an NNN ECU EU3 in a post 2002 car with a 3 wire AAP sensor will give you non accurate atmospheric pressure readings. The ECU will have inputs 10/15% above real. For example: if we are in a place with 950mba the ECU will have inputs of around 1070mba. 10% to 15% seems to be a small difference, but in fact this is the difference of the car being in a place 600 m above sea-level or in a place at 1000m... big difference!

3 Wires:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/1165.jpg

4 wires:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/1166.jpg


What happens is that the oxygen concentration at 600m above the sea-level is a lot different from the oxygen concentration at 1000m. So, the ECU will tell the engine to inject more diesel in order to make a good combustion. This will make the engine to work with more fuel then needed, specially when your car is at higher places.

Just a quick note to say that readings with the nanocom are in kpa/cm2 so you will have to x10 that number to have mbar readings.

Differences between AAP sensor pre and post 2002:
- In both cases they receive the 5v signal from the pin8 of the ECU conector – Pink/purple cable
- In both cases they receive power from the signal - Pin 30 of the ecu – Pink/black cable
- In both cases the outsignal for the AAP sensor is a White/yellow cable wich goes to de pin 10 of the ECU
The main difference is the Green/Blue cable - pin 31 of the ECU – This output signal gives information regarding air temperature and egt. So, with a 4 wire AAP sensor, the ECU receives to different signals from the sensor. These are data for the discovery. Defender is a bit difference in some parts, most regarding to some cable derivation to the IAT I believe.

Additional Information:
The 4 wire AAP sensor is LR P/N MHK100820 and is the same sensor form the new mini, so any BMW dealership can source you that at half the price - part number 0872648
If needed, there are connectors available here:
Simtek (UK) - For All Your Automotive Connectors (http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtekuk.co.uk/info.php?p=12&pno=0&pid=226073&cat=1624&ack=9&search=&sought)=

Hope this info is useful.

Regards,
José

[OffTrack]

have gone home to tassie and picked up my nanocom and plugged her in. i have written to jose and was going to send my map to him when i came across this post of his. i'm kinda thinking it explains why my AAP reads around 116-118 even when i was parked on the beach.

so before i send my map off to him i want to make sure i resolve the AAP reading. there are some faults coming up relating to coolant as mentioned earlier in thread.

the vehicle is a 2000 td5 defender, it is running an auto via a compushift. the AAP sensor is a 3 wire and i can't see any electrickery on the boost modulator??? like the disco td5. the pedal appears to be a 2 track, well when i set it to 3 track it doens't work so i'm assuming that's conclusive.

the motor is from a 2003/4 disco and is stamped june 2003 and starts with 16P.

it has a NNN ecu in it.

if it is the later motor (EU3 i'm assuming) does it have different injectors and/or FPR so i have to put the 3 track accelerator and 4 wire AAP in?

or do i get the EU2 map and it makes no diff as injectors & fpr are the same?

thanks,
brett.

The defender doesn't use the boost modulator so you won't find the electrickery.

I'm not sure about the wiring on the defenders, but assuming the same principles apply (and the screen shot suggests they do) I'd highly recommend you update to a 4-wire AAP and the 3-way pedal. All EU3 base maps will be designed for this configuration so you'll see errors and misfuelling with the throttle and AAP left in place.

cheers
Paul

[pibby]

thanks paul.

i've attached a photo of the maps on the ecu and tried to reference them to a link from an earlier tombie post but can't find them listed. it appears tombie's list is just EU2 and i'm inferring mine is a EU3?

do you/anyone know if the injectors and fpr are the same between the EU3 motor and the earlier ones?

what i'm getting at is if i am a lazy bugger, what would happen if i just put a standard EU2 map back in (for auto or manual?) would it work ok? it actually goes ok now but it goes into limp (i'm assuming it's such as accelerator response goes all doughy). turn off and back on and she's good to go again.

i'm interstate working and i keep telling myself no playing with the car till i get back home and then i'll just drive it into JC's workshop.

thanks,
brett.

just realised this thread is in the D2 - hope you guys don't mind getting your mouths dirty talking defender talk!

[OffTrack]

thanks paul.

i've attached a photo of the maps on the ecu and tried to reference them to a link from an earlier tombie post but can't find them listed. it appears tombie's list is just EU2 and i'm inferring mine is a EU3?

do you/anyone know if the injectors and fpr are the same between the EU3 motor and the earlier ones?

what i'm getting at is if i am a lazy bugger, what would happen if i just put a standard EU2 map back in (for auto or manual?) would it work ok? it actually goes ok now but it goes into limp (i'm assuming it's such as accelerator response goes all doughy). turn off and back on and she's good to go again.

i'm interstate working and i keep telling myself no playing with the car till i get back home and then i'll just drive it into JC's workshop.

thanks,
brett.

just realised this thread is in the D2 - hope you guys don't mind getting your mouths dirty talking defender talk!

No problems - happy to help a member of the Td5 brotherhood ;)

The map you've got installed is a for a manual European spec EU3 Defender 90 which is all fine.

The injectors and FPR are both different. You'll be able to tell the FPR is correct for the motor due to the three hoses that connect to it. One will run along beside inlet manifold to near the front of the head.

The injectors are also different between the two motor types. The pressure was increased from 1500bar on the EU2 to 1750bar on the EU3. The injector stroke is longer and the rockers and rocker shaft plus timing gears were also uprated to handle the increased injector loads. I'm sure someone will correct me but from memory EU2 injectors have blue or black spacer around the plunger and the EU3 injectors are green.

[Mudguard]

Afternoon,

After reading right through the pages (very interesting reading)

My previous D2 was a 03 TD5 and i had the BD chip put in as it was one of the first 03 D2's (i think from memory it was a Dec02 build)

i have a question regarding my current disco. Its a 04 D2 TD5. So does that mean its automatically a EU3 engine and how do you tell.

What do i need to do to remap. I had the advice given to me to carry out the EGR mod first (kit on its way from the UK) then look at remapping.

Im currently searching the forum for the best place to purchase a Nanocom. I have been putting it off for a while but im almost ready and need to find the best place to get one. Advice anyone.

Craig

[Mudguard]

ooops, just found the info on Nano coms in the electronic gizmos folder. :(

Still after the info on the EU3 engine etc though.

[OffTrack]

Afternoon,

After reading right through the pages (very interesting reading)

My previous D2 was a 03 TD5 and i had the BD chip put in as it was one of the first 03 D2's (i think from memory it was a Dec02 build)

i have a question regarding my current disco. Its a 04 D2 TD5. So does that mean its automatically a EU3 engine and how do you tell.

What do i need to do to remap. I had the advice given to me to carry out the EGR mod first (kit on its way from the UK) then look at remapping.

Im currently searching the forum for the best place to purchase a Nanocom. I have been putting it off for a while but im almost ready and need to find the best place to get one. Advice anyone.

Craig

Hi Craig,

From 2002MY onwards the D2 Td5 was EU3 spec and came fitted with the NNN series remapable ECU. All you need is a means of uploading the map file.

The best place to buy the Nanocom is direct from BlackBox Solutions.

https://blackbox-solutions.com/shop/?code=NCOM02&from=NANOCOM%20EVOLUTION&item=NCOM02

It will cost you around 25-30% less than buying from a dealer in the UK.

There are a number of companies selling tuned maps you can upload with a Nanocom. These include:

Bell Auto Services: Diesel performance tuning and economy remap chip tuning for Landrover Defender Discovery TD5 Puma TDV6 TDV8 (http://bellautoservices.co.uk/)
IRB: IRB Developments - Diesel Tuning and More (http://www.irbdevelopments.com/stage1_td5.html)
AliveTuning: Alive Tuning - Land Rover Tuning Excellence (http://www.alivetuning.com/)
Td5Inside: td5 INSIDE The ultimate solutions for remapping TD5´s (http://www.td5inside.com)

I got my remap through José at Td5Inside and have been very happy with it.

cheers
Paul

[Mudguard]

Thanks very much Paul,

I found the BBS site (again) just after posting the previous question... :(

Anyway appreciate the repsonse and i will try and get a couple of quotes for the files from the companies you have listed.

Craig

[OffTrack]

Thanks very much Paul,

I found the BBS site (again) just after posting the previous question... :(

Anyway appreciate the repsonse and i will try and get a couple of quotes for the files from the companies you have listed.

Craig

Just noted that you have clocked 50 posts which is the eligibility point for a AULRO member discount on the Nanocom.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/88555-exclusive-discounts-all-aulro-members.html

Td5Inside do a special pricing on remaps for AULRO members. José is great to deal with and will customise the maps to meet your requirements. One of the nice things about Td5Inside is if you add upgrades like a big intercooler or vnt to the car after you've had the remap done José can adjust the current map to suit, whereas most companies will expect you to buy another tune.

cheers
Paul

[Mudguard]

Awesome, pays to be on here making comments and asking questions. I will have to tell my wife.... :p

Will check the link out and have a squizz.

Thanks

[Furka]

Hi all,

I have currently a NNN000520 firmware map (EU-2 based) sthde021 sttdp010, into a NNN000120 ECU, with 4 pin connector AAP (retro fitted), and 2 way accelerator, on a 2000 Discovery Td5.

Can I gain responsiveness or simply best fuelling/air mixture changing to a 3 way accelerator, and changing the map to the NNN0000120 firmware like a sthde021 sttdp009?

On the other hand, is better to send my original MSB to remap, and return to the standard (on pre-2002 Disco2) 3 pin AAP ?

Best regards,

Joan

[joel0407]

Hey "Off Track"

I have just discovered I have the same Cooling circuit fault codes after receiving my Nanocom today.

I knew it had been remapped but I didn't know what with. Nanocom says swdxe007 which is some sort of EU3 map and as it's only a 2001 Disco I guess it's only a EU2 Disco.

The guy I bought the vehicle from said who ever did the remap offered unlimited changes and it wasn't restricted to the purchaser. He may have just been saying that but I'll look into it.

My question is how much differance did you get from adding the temp sensor to the air box. I mean if I can get a free revert to EU2 map then it might be worth while me getting it done. If it's going to cost me for the remap, maybe it's cheaper for me to add the sensor than pay for another map. Then how much differance does the sensor make? Did fuel economy improve? I dont tow and I have a EMS2 with EGT gauge so I keep an eye on that anyway.

Happy Days.

[Furka]

Anyone know the differences from the firmwares of a svdxe006-svtnp003 and a svdxe008-svtnp005 ?

[Furka]

:cool:

[D2Drover]

Hi everyone,

This has been unbelievable reading, have thoroughly enjoyed it.
Thanks to all for the info. I am not ready to up grade yet, as my Disco is not running as I believe it should.

This information will be greatly received when the time comes, so thank you all very much for your input.

Happy times

D2D

[carlosbeldia]

What about using a Discovery EU2 map in a Defender EU2 in a NNN000120? would this be for better?

What about using a EU3 map in a EU2 car just Off track was using in the beginning? does this have any risk of damage? I mean, using the car normally, not going for a rally or something like that...

[OffTrack]

What about using a Discovery EU2 map in a Defender EU2 in a NNN000120? would this be for better?

No. ECU firmware is written to match the sensors and ancillaries requirements of each vehicle. If fact I'd go as far as saying it would be idiotic to use a Defender map on a D2. I know this won't stop people trying...



What about using a EU3 map in a EU2 car just Off track was using in the beginning? does this have any risk of damage? I mean, using the car normally, not going for a rally or something like that...

The thread covers at some length issues involved with running the EU3 maps on EU2 - I'll leave it up to you to decide whether you act on that information or not...

[carlosbeldia]

I was asking about putting a Disco map in a Defender ECU, does it worth? I have never drove a Disco with a TD5 engine....

[OffTrack]

I was asking about putting a Disco map in a Defender ECU

"Defender ECU" is only meaningful if you are talking about non-programable MSB ECU's.

NNN000120 and NNN500020 ECU are for manual Td5's - there is also a NNN000250 but that only has maps to suit the Manual Disco.

You can load maps to suit either Manual Defender or Manual Discovery on these ECU's. It doesn't make the slightest difference what vehicle the ECU originally came from - the configuration is in the map files so you load a map to suit your vehicle.

[Furka]

The last days I have played with 2 maps, one for EU2 and the other for EU3 TD5 Discovery2, with the 4 wire AAP I have fitted actually. The result, I think, is clear: with the EU2 map, the MAF reads 88,7 Kpa of ambient pressure, while with the EU3 it reads 99,7 Kpa.

Today, our pressure is 1008.4 hPa, so for the best results, I have to return to the standard EU2 AAP, with 3 wires, because my TD5inside remap is based on standard EU2 sthde021 sttdp010 . I am not sure if the NNN will dump the typical 'coolant temperature' errors with the 3 wire AAP. With the 4 wire one, it does.

On the other hand, the EU2 map makes the sound of the TD5 a little different, adds torque and is smoother than the same engine running the EU3.

:o

More info: the remap is for NNN500020 and my ECU is NNN000120. Don't know if the same map with the NNN000120 firmware will change the MAF readings.

[OffTrack]

The figures you're referring to are for the AAP (Ambient Air Pressure) sensor not the MAF. José explained the pressure reading difference earlier in the thread. It's definitely not a matter of changing between the two to suit the atmospheric pressure - the ECU works on the basis of pressure readings from the appropriate sensor: EU2 = 3 wire, EU3 = 4 wire. If you use the in wrong sensor for the MAP you are using the ECU is getting incorrect data.

Stick with the correct variant map for your ECU. The variant maps are tailored to the hardware of the ecu and the specific sensor requirements of the vehicle so you wont be doing yourself any favours by mixing and matching.

The best practice is to use a variant-fuel map pair to suit the ecu and vehicle, then modify the fuel maps accordingly. You pretty much guarantee so-called "ghost" faults and less than optimal running if you pick maps designed for a different ecu or vehicle.

I'd argue what you are experiencing in terms of worse performance from the EU3 maps is entirely down to using an inappropriate remap for the engine//sensors. Which was why I posted the thread in the first place....

Cheers
Paul

[Furka]

Firstly many thanks to all, and specially to you, Paul. Your post has pushed me to respect the original config. I am on the way to return to 3 way AAP. In a week or so, i will post the results.

[joel0407]

Hey "Off Track"

I posted this before but maybe you missed it.

Nanocom says I have swdxe007 which is some sort of EU3 map and as it's only a 2001 Disco I guess it's only a EU2 Disco.

Apparently it was mapped by Davis Peformance Landy (previous owner).

My question is how much differance did you get from adding the temp sensor to the air box.

I'm finding it a bit thirsty (13.5+L/100km). I'm wondering should I source a EU2 map or add the temp sensor.

Happy Days.

[OffTrack]

Hey "Off Track"

I posted this before but maybe you missed it.

Nanocom says I have swdxe007 which is some sort of EU3 map and as it's only a 2001 Disco I guess it's only a EU2 Disco.

Apparently it was mapped by Davis Peformance Landy (previous owner).

My question is how much differance did you get from adding the temp sensor to the air box.

I'm finding it a bit thirsty (13.5+L/100km). I'm wondering should I source a EU2 map or add the temp sensor.

Happy Days.

MY2002 which did have the EU3 motor began 3 July 2001. Check your VIN and see if it is SALLTGMxx1Axxxxxx or SALLTGMxx2Axxxxxx. If it's a "2A" the engine is EU3.

You don't get a difference per se. It removes a fault code relating to the missing sensor, and gives correct ambient pressure reading. You are far better off just making sure that the base map matches the ECU, engine type, and gearbox rather than spending money on 4-wire AAP sensors, airfilter lids and plugs...

FWIW The fuel map id you've given is for an EU3, Auto gearbox Disco, running on an NNN000130 ECU.

cheers
Paul

Add: I think you've got a Nanocom - it might be worthwhile making a recording of the fuelling inputs to SDCard and posting up the .csv file to the forum. This will tell a lot about how the engine is running, and members who have a bit of experience interpreting the "tea-leaves" should be able to tell you if anything looks suspect...

[joel0407]

MY2002 which did have the EU3 motor began 3 July 2001. Check your VIN and see if it is SALLTGMxx1Axxxxxx or SALLTGMxx2Axxxxxx. If it's a "2A" the engine is EU3.

You don't get a difference per se. It removes a fault code relating to the missing sensor, and gives correct ambient pressure reading. You are far better off just making sure that the base map matches the ECU, engine type, and gearbox rather than spending money on 4-wire AAP sensors, airfilter lids and plugs...

FWIW The fuel map id you've given is for an EU3, Auto gearbox Disco, running on an NNN000130 ECU.

cheers
Paul

Add: I think you've got a Nanocom - it might be worthwhile making a recording of the fuelling inputs to SDCard and posting up the .csv file to the forum. This will tell a lot about how the engine is running, and members who have a bit of experience interpreting the "tea-leaves" should be able to tell you if anything looks suspect...


Cool, thanks mate.

I think I have a bit of a different VIN SALLTGM93YA2?????.

From your decoder post:

9=Td5 EGR w/o CAT for Aus, EEC, Japan (EU2?)

3 = RHD automatic

Y = 2000

I think this is partly good because I might have a CDL but partly bad because I might have a EU2 and currently a EU3 map. I only have the 3 wire sensor in the Air Box.

I'm a bit tied tonight since I started work at 3am this morning but I'll definatly get onto the fuel log thing with my Nanacom.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

FWIW The fuel map id you've given is for an EU3, Auto gearbox Disco, running on an NNN000130 ECU.

Add: I think you've got a Nanocom - it might be worthwhile making a recording of the fuelling inputs to SDCard and posting up the .csv file to the forum. This will tell a lot about how the engine is running, and members who have a bit of experience interpreting the "tea-leaves" should be able to tell you if anything looks suspect...

I have attached my .CSV file. I think, not sure, it might be a prime example of error incounted from a EU3 map on a EU2 Discovery 2.

I have done some searching and I'm lead to believe my "AMBIENT PRESSURE" should not be more than 100Kpa. As you can see from my .CSV, mine is around 114Kpa at sea level. I'm around Darwin so I'm not that far above sea level.

Please read my tea leaves.

Happy Days.

[OffTrack]

Yes, the ambient pressure is definitely wrong, unless Darwin is now 1500M below sea level :eek:

The ECU will be fuelling for a much higher air density than actually exists, so the engine will be running rich.

See if you can save out a copy of the existing map as a backup. If you can do that I'd suggest you try loading up a factory EU2 to suit the ecu/engine and give that a run for a tank or so to see what effect that has on fuel consumption.

The problem with shifting to a 4-wire AAP is that the EU3 map still needs to be modified to run correctly on an EU2 motor, so you add the expense of new air box lid, sensor and plug to the cost of a remap. You'd be better off just skipping the exercise and getting an EU2 remap.

[joel0407]

See if you can save out a copy of the existing map as a backup. If you can do that I'd suggest you try loading up a factory EU2 to suit the ecu/engine and give that a run for a tank or so to see what effect that has on fuel consumption.

Thanks for you help mate,

Is there a factory map avalible online somewhere?

I'll try calling Davis Peformance Landy later today.

Funny, a Google search for "td5 factory map eu2" brings me back to here several times over.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

[QUOTE=joel0407;1933764]Is there a factory map avalible online somewhere?
QUOTE]

Never mind, I found Nanocom Map Wizard.

Happy Days.

[OffTrack]

Depending on which ECU you have pick one of these, that is assuming you have an Auto with EU2 which the fuel map id you posted earlier suggests:

NNN000130: sutdp014-suhde036
NNN500030: sutdp012-suhde036

These are both the same fuel map (suhde036) but with different variant maps to suit the ECU.

cheers
Paul

[joel0407]

Depending on which ECU you have pick one of these, that is assuming you have an Auto with EU2 which the fuel map id you posted earlier suggests:

NNN000130: sutdp014-suhde036
NNN500030: sutdp012-suhde036

These are both the same fuel map (suhde036) but with different variant maps to suit the ECU.

cheers
Paul

Hey mate,

I have the NNN000130 ECU so I'm thinking sutdp014-suhde036 is the go.

I have also found 2 others that I think will match SUHDE 036-SUTDP 012 (Europe) or SUHDR 009-SUTZP 004 (Rest of the world). Both are EU2 maps for Automatic TD5 Discoverys.

I'm just wondering what the differance in the fuel maps might be?

[Tombie]

ROW is for lower grade fuels.

Most (if not all) Aus delivered TD5s are Euro

[joel0407]

ROW is for lower grade fuels.

Most (if not all) Aus delivered TD5s are Euro

Cool.

So is SUHDE036 it is then. Once my wife gets home with the Disco

I have contacted Davis Performance and waiting a call back from them.

Happy Days

[joel0407]

Small update.

I have loaded the standard map and my "AMBIENT PRESSURE" is now at 100kpa (or very close to).

Updating the map was a bit nerve racking. It might be ok for you guys that do it all the time but I have read several stories about blocking the ECU and I have a holiday booked to go away on Saturday.

Now I cant read my SD card through my Nanocom. I'm just working on that now because I made a short CSV file to chow the results.

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

Ok I have just attached a CSV from a run with the suhde036-sutdp014 map.

"AMBIENT PRESSURE" is all good but seat of the pant power is well down.

I have red that many have found the Davis Performance maps to be very peaky with nothing under 2000rpm the plenty. With the pedal flat it felt like you had a big balloon strapped to the back and semi trailer had just run into you. With the Standard map its smooth but well down on power.

I called Davis Performance. The first time I was told Bruce was on the phone and he will call me back in half an hour. Then when I called 1 hour later, I was told he is still busy but he has the message and he will call me. I off to get ready for work now with a 12 hour shift, I guess he will call me tomorrow when I am sleeping.

[Furka]

I am on way to return from 4 wire AAP EU3, to my old standard EU2 two wire AAP. Anyone with an EU2 connector could take a picture that shows the colour of the cables and their position please ?

[joel0407]

I am on way to return from 4 wire AAP EU3, to my old standard EU2 two wire AAP. Anyone with an EU2 connector could take a picture that shows the colour of the cables and their position please ?



I can in the morning, mate. Just on my way to work.

What exactly do you need a picture of?

The connector on the sensor or the ECU?

Happy Days.

[joel0407]

I am on way to return from 4 wire AAP EU3, to my old standard EU2 two wire AAP. Anyone with an EU2 connector could take a picture that shows the colour of the cables and their position please ?

Tell me what you need a picture of and I can take it now. I have 20 minutes to waste just sitting in the disco.

[joel0407]

62015Does this help?

[Furka]

Many thanks, that'i it :-)

[pibby]

anyone got a heads on the pin number on the old aap sensor and which pin number it corresponds to on the new aap sensor? and which pin on the new sensor the 4th wire attaches to? well, i can't actually see pin numbers on mine but a description would go a long way too.

wasn't going to get this done till went home in few weeks but unfortunately have had a rush of enthusiasm.

my RAVE is at home and after a few web searches...........well, i give up so need to ask the question.

[OffTrack]

anyone got a heads on the pin number on the old aap sensor and which pin number it corresponds to on the new aap sensor? and which pin on the new sensor the 4th wire attaches to? well, i can't actually see pin numbers on mine but a description would go a long way too.

wasn't going to get this done till went home in few weeks but unfortunately have had a rush of enthusiasm.

my RAVE is at home and after a few web searches...........well, i give up so need to ask the question.

The 4 pin connector is marked with letters rather than numbers, 3 wire AAP pin numbers in brackets:

ECU RED pin 30 -> Pink/Black -> Pin A (Pin 1)
ECU RED pin 31 Green/Blue -> Pin B (Extra 4-wire AAP connection)
ECU RED pin 8 -> Pink/Purple -> Pin C (Pin 3)
ECU RED pin 10 -> White/Yellow -> Pin D (Pin 2)

cheers
Paul

[Amigo]

Thank you Offtrack for a highly informative thread.

I have a 2000 D2 TD5 Auto (owned from new) & 5 years ago had an upgrade to a flashable ECU & had it flashed by a Sunny Coast indy.

I have a Hawkeye & prior to the upgrade had no faults - After the upgrade, Hawkeye showed the 2 coolant faults & the transmission fault as outlined in your posts. It also shows my AAP between 115 - 117 (I live a sea level).
In spite of that I was pretty happy with the performance, both improved power & fuel consumption. Improved fuel consumption was a bit surprising given the increased AAP reading would cause overfuelling.

After a bit of trial & error, I decided that fuel consumption & power were even better if I simply unplugged the AAP sensor causing it to use the default of 100. It has been unplugged ever since.

Thanks to your posts, I now know all the technical reasons of, why?.


Adios.

[pibby]

thanks paul.

even though my vehicle is a defender, the current 3 wire sensor i can match the wire colours you mention so ok with that one though can't see any identification at all.

whilst i mentioned earlier there were no pin numbers on the 4 wire either the new aap sensor does have the writing 2314 as per attached photo which i had assumed was some further identification for a part number etc. (there are 4 pins on it though in the photo you'd swear there only 3!) in my mind i was expecting them to be in sequence, but are these the actual pin numbers?

do you recall where you sourced the connector for the ecu end of the new 4th wire or a description?

thanks,
brett.

[joel0407]

I simply unplugged the AAP sensor causing it to use the default of 100.
Adios.

Thanks mate.

I might try this until I can afford a new map from TD5inside

[Amigo]

Thanks mate.

I might try this until I can afford a new map from TD5inside

If you do unplug the AAP make sure you secure it with a cable tie or similar - You don't want it dropping down near a pulley or belt!

BTW - I have the same VIN as you, SALLTGM93YA2xxxxx. Mine is a 2000 model with the CDL gizzards.


Adios.

[OffTrack]

do you recall where you sourced the connector for the ecu end of the new 4th wire or a description?

thanks,
brett.

ECU connectors came from:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TD5-Engine-ECU-Connector-Gold-Tipped-Terminals-Wire-Seals-x-5-AMP-Econoseal-/151059731056

I'l try and get a pic of the AAP connector. The 4-wire connector is actually marked A B C D rather than numbers so not really sure what relationship that has to 1-4 markings on the sensor itself, I'd suspect very little.

cheers
Paul

[OffTrack]

do you recall where you sourced the connector for the ecu end of the new 4th wire or a description?


You can get the terminals here:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TD5-Engine-ECU-Connector-Gold-Tipped-Terminals-Wire-Seals-x-5-AMP-Econoseal-/151059731056

The numbering on the sensor itself is probably a batch number or similar - mine is marked 0228.

cheers
Paul

[jabber]

Thanks for this brilliant post! I know my 10P appreciates it!

As I was poking around the my nanocom evo I noticed the following config/map:

sthle019 sttlp007

I thought my MSB had a standard tune, but when I started "googling" around found:

sthle022sttlp009
and
sthle022sttlp010

Overall, things seem to be running ok, maybe a touch rough at times. Any ideas as to the differences?

I've only just scratched the surface of the td5 electronics; as I'm trying to clear up some of it's mechanical issues before jumping head first. The depth and breadth of td5 knowledge on this forum is amazing!!

Cheers,
Mike

Forgot to add it's a 'fender 110, but you probably gathered that from the map info.

[OffTrack]

It sounds like you have the original non-remappable MSB ECU that was used with the 10P/EU2 motors.

The codes for the maps have two parts.

In your case the sttlp006, sttlp009, and sttlp010 identify the variant map. Variant maps contain the software that supports the hardware features of a particular ECU, so the sttlp009 is the variant map for NNN000120 running a Defender 90 fuel map, and the sttlp010 is the variant code for a NNN500020. In some cases the variant map is the same for both the Defender 110 and Manual Td5 Disco...

sthle019 and sthle022 are the identifiers of the fuel maps. The MSB and NNN fuel maps have significant differences and can't be interchanged.

So sthle022-sttlp009 and sthle022-sttlp010 are the same fuel mapping with paired with different variant maps to suit the NNN000120 and NNN500020 respectively.

cheers
Paul

[disco_ute]

I have a little software issue i hope someone can help me out with.

I have a huge amount of un-burnt diesel (white smoke) being blown out the exhaust when idling with the NNN ecu fitted. Admittedly I also have very low comp on No1 cylinder so a bit of white smoke is to be expected. So to rule out a SW problem I fitted the original MSB ecu to check the injector codes and a few other things and started her up and the smoke is now only noticeable when No1 fires. I am running the correct default fuel map on the NNN ecu for my engine. I don't get whats wrong. Anyone have any ideas?

Mick


MSB ECU running -

Config. tune ID: sutdp008
Fuel tune ID: suhde024

NNN500030 ECU that I flashed with -
Config. tune ID: sutdp014
Fuel tune ID: suhde036

[disco_ute]

double up

[disco_ute]

Here is some video

this was just the change of the ECU

NNN Ecu (https://picasaweb.google.com/104946269064637057408/TD5Conversion#5911170646422249746)

MBS Ecu (https://picasaweb.google.com/104946269064637057408/TD5Conversion#5911171213020330754)

Mick

[disco_ute]

For anyone wanting to do this to 99/2000 plate car you might find 1 wire is missing from the pedal. You need to add a wire from PIN C on the pedal plug to pin 20 on the ECU (Black Plug) and also the APP wire.

Mick

[shack]

So paul, (aka OffTrack)

I have a very similar td5 d2 to yours, (even same colour I think!) but have a trs remapped msb ecu, after your experience doing yours, do you think you actually gained anything from converting over to a nnn and the 4 wire aap,

as I already have a remapped one would I be likely to see any improvement, ie power, fuel economy, driveability etc, ( I know I know.. how long is a piece of string:))

also does anyone have any experience how a stock d2a compares to a d2 in performance,
I always thought they were identical,... but maybe not;)
otherwise lr probably wouldn't have made the updates , or maybe this was primarily for eu3 specs?

[OffTrack]

So paul, (aka OffTrack)

I have a very similar td5 d2 to yours, (even same colour I think!) but have a trs remapped msb ecu, after your experience doing yours, do you think you actually gained anything from converting over to a nnn and the 4 wire aap,

as I already have a remapped one would I be likely to see any improvement, ie power, fuel economy, driveability etc, ( I know I know.. how long is a piece of string:))

also does anyone have any experience how a stock d2a compares to a d2 in performance,
I always thought they were identical,... but maybe not;)
otherwise lr probably wouldn't have made the updates , or maybe this was primarily for eu3 specs?

The main reason for the 4 wire AAP was to give the ability to utilise the EU3 maps which apparently have a bit more tweakability than the EU2 maps - they do at least have more tables for the tuner to work with. I'm still not entirely convinced it was really worth the effort.

Swapping to an NNN ecu gives you flexibility to load maps more than anything else. The end result in terms of economy, power, drivability will result from the map that you load rather than the hardware itself. If you were chasing economy as the primary goal a tuner should be able to optimise the mapping to suit, likewise if you wanted major power increases a tuner should be able to sell you something that suits your needs.

So it really boils down to whether you are sufficiently unhappy with your TRS ECU to justify the cost of an NNN ECU and a new remap.

cheers
Paul

[towe0609]

Slightly off topic, but can a NNN000130 (auto disco) be used in a 1999 Manual Defender.

There seems to be some suggestion that you cant mix and match auto and manual NNN ECUs, but others report that an auto ECU can be used for a manual, but not a manual ECU for an auto.

I appreciate I'll need to remap the ECU and have a nanocom to do so.

[Disco Muppet]

So, to go from MSB to NNN do you have to do the 4 wire swap or not?
Just realised that to have a realistic idea of what's going on when I go to an NNN Td5Inside ECU I'd need to get a nanocom, which is a sensible idea but $1300ish in one go is probably pushing it...
Hmm...

[shack]

I was wondering this also,

I think if you stay with an eu2 map it should be OK,but then you lose some of the eu3 map benefits, but retain the ease of remapping,personally I think whether you remap or not,a nanocom is very useful with these vehicles.

cheers james

[OffTrack]

So, to go from MSB to NNN do you have to do the 4 wire swap or not?

I'm guessing you didn't read the thread. :angel:

The short version:

There are several "ghost faults" that were supposedly "normal" when upgrading from MSB to NNN on an EU2.

These faults are actually caused vendors supplying a remap based on an EU3 base map which expects an ambient temperature input from the 4-wire AAP which isn't present in the 3-wire AAP. The fault is basically the ECU reporting a missing input from a sensor, and isn't a "ghost fault".

This essentially means you have two choices for a "fault code free" remap.

- Ask the remap vendor to supply an EU2 remap to suit your engine and the standard 3-wire sensor. If they do this you won't get any "ghost faults".

- Ask the remap vendor to supply a modified EU3 remap and fit a later air-box lid and 4-wire sensor to suit the requirements of the EU3 map. If you are going to the trouble of doing this, you should also consider updating to a 3 way throttle pedal.

I'd only go for the second option if you were dealing with Jose and you need to let him know this is what you are doing. It adds at least $200 to the cost and leaves you with no easy way to swap back to an EU2 map without messed up sensor readings.

cheers
Paul

[td5inside]

Hi all,

Dont forget something very important to... The EU2 engines only have 1500 bar pressure injectors and the EU3 have 1750. The tuner must work on the map having this in consideration.

Regards

[Furka]

Some time out of this forum, and the car without changes (only new wheels).

In order to search the more perfect way to make an EU2 remap, is the remap of the original MSB the best way ? I currently have an EU2 running on a NNN000120, with a 3 pin AAP, and it performs good, but the AAP reads with a 8% o error: on a 101.8Kpa real, it reads 92.4Kpa. Bad sensor, perhaps. I have on mind to send the map and the MSB Ecu, and make the remap on it. Do you recommend that, or I will not see any difference of performance ?

Best regards to all.

[OffTrack]

There are two maps that are suitable for a NNN000120 and EU2 D2:

sthde021-sttdp009 (European)
sthdr009-sttdp009 (ROW)

Land Rover wrote suitable maps for EU2 motors when the NNN ECU's were introduced. They should be functionally identical to the equivalent MSB map so this would be the best starting point.

If you want to remap a MSB ECU there are technical challenges. The memory is one time programmable so needs to be replaced with a flash memory chip. Once that is done you'll be able to reprogram the chip fairly easily with via the BDM interface but it will likely require a bit of messing around to get it working.

cheers
Paul

[Furka]

Thank you Paul. I currently have a sthde021-sttdp009 on the NNN0000120 and have the original MSB for an emergency or recovery. In your opinion the MSB will not work best than the NNN with the same map ? Does not pay the effort ?

[OffTrack]

There should be no functional difference between NNN with correct map loaded and the MSB ECU.

You could try swapping in the MSB ECU to check the AAP reading is the same. The map you have loaded will have the correct information for the three wire AAP so that would be the last thing I'd be worrying about.

The MSB will require a fair bit of effort unless you are happy to send to a tuner for them to load a map.

cheers
Paul

[Furka]

Many thanks, If there is not any advantage I will center my atention to correct the read error of my AAP.

When I have installed the new 3 pin AAP, perhaps the total length of the cables is now superior of 20 cm. 20 cm of cable could make a difference of reading of any % or it is irrelevant ?

Markdeb: you private messages are not allowed.

[MarknDeb]

Gday send the PM you have to tick box for "Send message to users even if they are not on your contact list." under message

[Furka]

This is the message of error:

MarknDeb has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

If you are trying to send this message to multiple recipients, remove MarknDeb from the recipient list and send the message again.

[GILLOVERLAND]

Is there an actual benefit to be had then from running an eu2 map through a nnn ecu with the 3 wire aap and 3 track throttle or do those two mpds mean that you can run an eu3 map?

[disco_ute]

I have done the 3 track 4 wire mode to my eu2 engine. The tuner gave me 2 maps to try 1 was just the stock eu2 the other a eu2 hybrid. The hybrid won hands down. So yes it has its benefits.
But....
It's not that easy and the parts can be expensive and or hard to get 2nd hand. My 1999 loom didn't have all the wires for th he 3 track pedal so it was a real pain. Also the 4th wire had to added.

Mick

[GILLOVERLAND]

So you mean you can upload maps with a nanocom that are emailed to you which you cant do with an msb ecu?

[disco_ute]

Yep

[OffTrack]

Many thanks, If there is not any advantage I will center my atention to correct the read error of my AAP.

When I have installed the new 3 pin AAP, perhaps the total length of the cables is now superior of 20 cm. 20 cm of cable could make a difference of reading of any % or it is irrelevant ?

Markdeb: you private messages are not allowed.

You won't get that much difference from 20cm of cable.

[td5inside]

Hi all,

You are always better off with an NNN ecu with correct map. From what I´ve experienced, I´´ve always found out the cars running the NNN ecu more responsive (less lag, more throttle response) than the ones that are running MSB´s, even If I almost match the remap parametres in both!!

Regards,

[Furka]

I think my prob with the AAP reads is sorted. The difference of sound/smoothness and feel in general is like it is another engine. Now I need time to go for some rides with the car (and set the waste-gate the better I could), and after that I will install the Boost Box. I will set the WG to 1.30 max boost, a little under the max recommended by Td5alive pdf manual. I will look at smoke and EGTs too.

[jan v b]

Hi I have done a remap since after the remap I have a list of ghost fault codes. Is it possible that the tuner could have used a eu2 map on my eu3 engine? Any info would be apreciated.

[td5inside]

Hi I have done a remap since after the remap I have a list of ghost fault codes. Is it possible that the tuner could have used a eu2 map on my eu3 engine? Any info would be apreciated.

Can you get an hold of a nanocom?

Thank you

[strangy]

Can you get an hold of a nanocom?

Thank you

Hi Jose,
please check you PM s

[jan v b]

Can you get an hold of a nanocom?

Thank you
I've located someone with a nanocom. Wat should I do? [emoji16]

[ChookD2]

So,....after reading all 16 pages of this thread, and I must say a BIG :BigThumb: to OffTrack (Paul) :TakeABow:, I have come to the following conclusion(s) and would just like someone to perhaps confirm my thinking or steer me in the correct direction.

I have a 2000 D2 TD5 Auto with ACE. (currently MSB ECU) VIN SALLTGM93YA28xxxx
I have a Nanocom Evolution
I have an NNN ECU (NNN500030) from donor D2a TD5 Auto.

Now the tricky bits. I don't want (cost prohibitive at this point) to change AAP or pedal.

So for me to install this NNN ECU,...
I need to read the current map from the ECU, to make sure it hasn't already been remapped (which I doubt), and to retrieve injector codes. Correct?
Then I need to download the correct map file from Map Generator, being NNN500030, sutdp014-suhde036.map. Correct?
Then swap out ECUs and using Nanocom to allow new ECU to sync security. Correct?
Then install downloaded map to new ECU. Correct?
Then reconfigure injector numbers. Correct?

And this should (with fingers crossed) now work without any mysterious/ghostly fault codes. Correct?
And this may give me a marginal improvement in performance/economy/drivability. Correct?
And to gain a little more improvement (later) I should remove the muffler and install a D2a intercooler. Correct?
And to get even better performance (at a later stage) a remap utilising the existing EU2 map file. Correct?

How do I change the VIN?
Can I change the VIN?
Do I need to change the VIN?

Do I need to connect battery charger, as I read somewhere, is there that much drain?

Sorry for so many questions and I'm hoping I have assimilated the information correctly, but I can't afford to stuff this up and have this thing on tilt tray to a mechanic.

I have read quite a bit from a search of this forum and other places and this is the best information I have found. Just need to get it straight in my head. If there is any other information about my car that is required, just ask.

If, by some miracle, I have all the above correct and there are any other tips or tricks then please let me know.

And if we ever meet in person Paul, more than happy to shake your hand and purchase you a beverage of you choice.

Still in awe of this forum, it's members and the knowledge.

[PhilipA]

Do I need to connect battery charger, as I read somewhere, is there that much drain?

When I remapped my EU3 , I bought a 20amp 12volt power supply from Jaycar, which is really 13.8 volts and connected it to the primary battery.
.

I have considerable voltage drop on my Optima battery when I turn on the ignition , down to just on or under 12 volts, so yes I think there is a large drag of current, maybe to energise the capacitors in the ECU, and someone has suggested that the glow plugs are lit even if the light is not on.

Seeing the danger is bricking the ECU, I think it was money well spent.

Regards Philip A

[MarknDeb]

mate get the injector codes with the Nanocom then swap ECU put your injector codes into new ECU and you should be on your way

[Kaaaiju]

Got an 99 D2 td5 with an NNN ecu, had an MSB ecu and got an Td5inside one and plug it in and change the injector codes and synced the security code, took less that 5min and off it went

[discorevy]

​
So,....after reading all 16 pages of this thread, and I must say a BIG :BigThumb: to OffTrack (Paul) :TakeABow:, I have come to the following conclusion(s) and would just like someone to perhaps confirm my thinking or steer me in the correct direction.

I have a 2000 D2 TD5 Auto with ACE. (currently MSB ECU) VIN SALLTGM93YA28xxxx
I have a Nanocom Evolution
I have an NNN ECU (NNN500030) from donor D2a TD5 Auto.

Now the tricky bits. I don't want (cost prohibitive at this point) to change AAP or pedal.

So for me to install this NNN ECU,...
I need to read the current map from the ECU, to make sure it hasn't already been remapped (which I doubt), and to retrieve injector codes. Correct? : nanocom won't read msb map , just retrieve injector codes.

Then I need to download the correct map file from Map Generator, being NNN500030, sutdp014-suhde036.map. Correct? :yes

Then swap out ECUs and using Nanocom to allow new ECU to sync security. Correct? : yes
Then install downloaded map to new ECU. Correct? : yes
Then reconfigure injector numbers. Correct? : yes

And this should (with fingers crossed) now work without any mysterious/ghostly fault codes. Correct? : yup
And this may give me a marginal improvement in performance/economy/drivability. Correct? : yep
And to gain a little more improvement (later) I should remove the muffler and install a D2a intercooler. Correct? ya
And to get even better performance (at a later stage) a remap utilising the existing EU2 map file. Correct? si

How do I change the VIN?
Can I change the VIN?
Do I need to change the VIN? : no , only the ecu vin will be required regarding NNN remapping

Do I need to connect battery charger, as I read somewhere, is there that much drain? : a good battery fully charged should normally suffice , not much drain once the fuel pump switches off and glow finishes its cycle which is short after a good run to fully charge battery, you can also hook another large same type battery up via jumper leads if you have one ( obviously good and fully charged as well :-)

Sorry for so many questions and I'm hoping I have assimilated the information correctly, but I can't afford to stuff this up and have this thing on tilt tray to a mechanic.

I have read quite a bit from a search of this forum and other places and this is the best information I have found. Just need to get it straight in my head. If there is any other information about my car that is required, just ask.

If, by some miracle, I have all the above correct and there are any other tips or tricks then please let me know.

And if we ever meet in person Paul, more than happy to shake your hand and purchase you a beverage of you choice.

Still in awe of this forum, it's members and the knowledge.

alternatively you can ask td5 inside to supply an eu2 remap but in your case you would fit the NNN to your car to read the map first.
oh and I tried to answer your questions in red but that didn't work obviously [bighmmm]

[ChookD2]

​

alternatively you can ask td5 inside to supply an eu2 remap but in your case you would fit the NNN to your car to read the map first.
oh and I tried to answer your questions in red but that didn't work obviously [bighmmm]


Thanks for the answers, just needed to confirm what I'd read. In regards to the battery I have a Redarc solenoid connecting second battery and have installed a push button override in case of flat starter battery. Would pressing this button for the duration of the flash be sufficient to maintain enough voltage? Don't want to "brick" the ECU, not cheap to replace.

[discorevy]

Thanks for the answers, just needed to confirm what I'd read. In regards to the battery I have a Redarc solenoid connecting second battery and have installed a push button override in case of flat starter battery. Would pressing this button for the duration of the flash be sufficient to maintain enough voltage? Don't want to "brick" the ECU, not cheap to replace.


no you don't want any voltage spikes, so either jump the solenoid or the push button , or even jumper leads between batteries, you'll have enough to do without holding a button in

[AK83]

If you can fully over ride the 'jump start' switch, I reckon you'd be OK.
But heed discorevy's advice. If you plan to hold it for the duration of the reflash .. I'd say DON'T! you don't want to be kicking yourself for sneezing/forgetting/etc.

I have the Redarc DBS and fitted a momentary push switch for the jump start feature. Helps to hold battery voltage when preheating.

Are both your batteries in good nik?
I'm assuming the switch is a momentary type? That's what they recommend. If the flash takes 10mins or so, do you really want to be holding it in for that long.
Did you fit the switch, and or Redarc? (ie. do you know how it works?)

[sierrafery]

mate get the injector codes with the Nanocom then swap ECU put your injector codes into new ECU and you should be on your way
I'm not gonna dignify this with an answer :wallbash:

[Neavesie]

I found that my Nanocom loves heaps of power. I have best success when I charge the battery fully first and then leave the charger on the battery while I use the nanocom.
With the old ECU I used the Nanocom to look at every option and setting and wrote it down the same so when it came to a using the NNN ECU I could replicate the same settings. Sometimes knowing the door code is super handy (EKA code I think?). I Had to use the code several times to be able to start the D2 after a ECU flash or flat battery. It is simple once you know how.

[ChookD2]

Are both your batteries in good nik?
I'm assuming the switch is a momentary type? That's what they recommend. If the flash takes 10mins or so, do you really want to be holding it in for that long.
Did you fit the switch, and or Redarc? (ie. do you know how it works?)

Yes both in good nick, yes it is a momentary switch, yes I istalled it.
No I'm not going to use it for this operation, if it is gunna take 10mins, I didn't know how long it would take. I have printed off the Flashing Porcedure from BBS and the only time frame mentioned is turning the ignition off for 15 seconds.

I may go and have a look at the power supply mentioned by Phillip.


With the old ECU I used the Nanocom to look at every option and setting and wrote it down the same so when it came to a using the NNN ECU I could replicate the same settings. Sometimes knowing the door code is super handy (EKA code I think?). I Had to use the code several times to be able to start the D2 after a ECU flash or flat battery. It is simple once you know how.

Yep, that is the plan. Get all the info I can before anything else. Thanks


I'm not gonna dignify this with an answer :wallbash:

I wasn't going to do that. After all I've read I knew it wasn't that simple.

[Pippin]

Will he also have to also set the new ECU for a 2 pot TPS?
Nick

[sierrafery]

An addendum for this:
....being NNN500030, sutdp014-suhde036.map. Correct?....
it's not incorrect but there is another for the ROW, see attached list

143459

[ChookD2]

An addendum for this:
it's not incorrect but there is another for the ROW, see attached list

Yep, knew there was two, was using the European one based on OffTrack's recommendation at the start of this thread.
Do you feel the ROW version is better? I do have the EGR deleted if that makes any difference.

Happy for any and all information before I get the tools out.

[sierrafery]

Offtrack rules in this area so follow his advice, anyway IMO non of those two standard maps are with de-EGR'd fuel map

[AK83]

Yes both in good nick, yes it is a momentary switch, yes I istalled it.
No I'm not going to use it for this operation, if it is gunna take 10mins, I didn't know how long it would take. I have printed off the Flashing Porcedure from BBS and the only time frame mentioned is turning the ignition off for 15 seconds.

....

In case you don't get a power supply, your idea should should work.
But as you have a momentary switch(as I also do), the only thing you'd have to do is to bridge the blue wire on the redarc to the Aux terminal(which is what the switch does).

So you'd disconnect the wire you added to the blue wire terminal at the redarc, use another wire to plug into thos blue wire spade connector and then connect the other end of this new wire to the Aux terminal.
If you do this, you have achieved the same action as the switch you installed, but without the need to hold the switch it. [thumbsupbig]

[MarknDeb]

I have my Hyundai Elantra hooked up to the Disco when i remap with jumper leads, i bricked 1 ecu and dont want to try that again

[Kaaaiju]

So isn't good to have gone for an drive to charge the battery and the do an reflash?

[ChookD2]

Offtrack rules in this area so follow his advice, anyway IMO non of those two standard maps are with de-EGR'd fuel map

But at least, when completed, I can have a remap at a later dated to include the EGR delete.[thumbsupbig] Because the current map sure can't include it.[biggrin]

Cheers.

[sierrafery]

So isn't good to have gone for an drive to charge the battery and the do an reflash?
Better put a smart charger on the battery over night and let it connected while you work with nanocom in the fuel map then you are on the safe side.... that's how i did it few times and haven't had any problems whatsoever

[Kaaaiju]

Ok, and have it on Supply mode?

What about the SD card with the Nanocom? Just reformat it and copy the map onto it?

[AK83]

If you have a Nanocom, there are some PDF files on the BBS website you can download for more info on the workings of the Nanocom.

The pdf file specifically relating to ECU remapping is called Nanocom Evolution TD5 Map facility and guide.pdf


The two page doc assumes you have your map file ready to upload into the ECU.
Have read it a few times(never done it tho), and you need a .tun file(according to the instructions) for using the Nanocom to do a remap.

[ChookD2]

Have read it a few times(never done it tho), and you need a .tun file(according to the instructions) for using the Nanocom to do a remap.

As I am getting ready to do an ECU swap I have been digesting information at an alarming rate, I think I've even put on weight [bigwhistle]
I don't think the above is entirely correct.

From my readings you can flash with a .map file or .tun file but the .tun file is a particular tuned file that is specific to the VIN of the ECU and the Nanocom ID.

When reading from the the ECU to Nanocom the file can be saved as either an unencrypted .map or an encrypted .tun file on the SD card. I would suspect that the .tun file could then be supplied to a tuner and then retuned for reflashing to the ECU. I believe you can get .map file generator to get generic untuned standard maps for various models, engines and ECU.

I could be wrong so if someone with more expertise wants to correct this, please do. I'm still learning.

[Kaaaiju]

Yeah and my ecu and TD5INSIDE ecu and map cannot be saved off the ecu due to copy right issues, which is fair enough you can only get updates tunes flashed ontot the ecu

[MarknDeb]

If the voltage drops below 11.9v ECU will brick so wise to have asuply that can keep it up because the 2 large capacitors in the ecu take quite a bit of power out of the system when you turn to ignition