3.0 Turbo Reliability

[~Rich~]

I'm more than happy with my 2.7 TDV6 but a time will come when I will upgrade to another vehicle.
After reading and seeing the apparent issues with twin turbo engines and discussing them with my mechanic I'm wondering a couple of points:

1: The issues of the secondary turbo seem to occur after servicing, could it in fact be that the engines had been overfilled with oil? This would mean the drain tubes from the turbos get sealed off by the higher oil level and therefore the pressure increases and seals fail. Some vehicles have had no issues perhaps to correct oil level.

2: What will happen 10yrs and longer down the track with all these difficult to access turbo vehicles? People will not find it financially viable to repair these vehicles. This no doubt will dramatically affect the resale value of the model(s)

Cheers Rich

[boolyb]

Hey mate, latest fix for the 3.0 tdv6 turbo issue is to replace the oil drain pipe from the secondary turbo, the pipe being fitted is the same as the one fitted to the 3.0 jag engine, the difference being the jag turbo drains to the side of the crankcase, where as the original lr design was to drain to the sump, where a scavenge system was used, Incorporating the engine vac pump system.
This appears to be curing the smoke issues and oil by-passing the turbo seals.
We have tested a d4 with an oil pressure gauge fitted on the turbo oil supply pipe and on the engine main gallery. I can confirm the turbo is supplied with adequate oil pressure even when tilted to extreme angles in all directions.
Jags have always had this system and they have never had an issue with smoking or turbo fails. Hope this helps, don't know when this will be fitted to vehicles coming of the line, real pity this issue has blighted the 3.0 tdv6 as it really is a fantastic engine and transforms the d4 and rrs.
Watch this space I guess!!

[Graeme]

What concerns me is that my 3.0 doesn't get worked hard enough to keep all the moving bits moving. My TD5 worked hard enough all the time to prevent its wastegate from siezing but the 3.0 has so much torque down low that it rarely gets to try. Every so often I give it some boot but in no time at all its at the speed limit without getting any exercise.

[Disco4SE]

Hey mate, latest fix for the 3.0 tdv6 turbo issue is to replace the oil drain pipe from the secondary turbo, the pipe being fitted is the same as the one fitted to the 3.0 jag engine, the difference being the jag turbo drains to the side of the crankcase, where as the original lr design was to drain to the sump, where a scavenge system was used, Incorporating the engine vac pump system.
This appears to be curing the smoke issues and oil by-passing the turbo seals.
We have tested a d4 with an oil pressure gauge fitted on the turbo oil supply pipe and on the engine main gallery. I can confirm the turbo is supplied with adequate oil pressure even when tilted to extreme angles in all directions.
Jags have always had this system and they have never had an issue with smoking or turbo fails. Hope this helps, don't know when this will be fitted to vehicles coming of the line, real pity this issue has blighted the 3.0 tdv6 as it really is a fantastic engine and transforms the d4 and rrs.
Watch this space I guess!!
Hi Sneigy,
What are your thoughts on this???

Cheers, Craig

[roamer]

Jags have always had this system and they have never had an issue with smoking or turbo fails. !!



I think you may find the oil drain pipe was a fix for early 3lt Jags blowing smoke


Ken

[Sleeping Wood]

Just bumping this post up.
Does anyone know what model year the modified pipe (pipe into crankcase) was incorporated into 3.0 liter motor? And was this modified pipe to fix the smoke issue a recall earlier model years? (or don't LR do recalls)

[Graeme]

No recall on my late 2009 3.0.
I haven't seen white smoke since the secondary turbo was replaced ages ago but today after planting the foot whilst barely rolling I saw quite a puff of white.

[MartyJB]

I've had the turbo and the oil drain line replaced. I'm now only seeing smoke occasionally and nowhere near the extent previously. In fact I can't reliably create the smoke so wasn't sure what response I'd get from dealer. It has been back to the dealer who said there is yet another fix (technical bulletin) and am now waiting on parts from the UK, but I'm not sure yet what is being replaced, I'll let you know soon...
The positive in all this is I have never been fobbed off by the dealer.

[Rollin over]

I told LR Newcastle about my 2010 HSE 3.0 blowing some smoke, and they informed me there was a campaign for the problem which turned out to be a hose, which was put on under warranty. Only way we knew it was blowing smoke sometimes was when the wife was following me back with the van on.

Cheers Glenn

PS Happy Easter

[Disco4_tech]

No need to worry about parts "seizing". Even though the 3.0L has a secondary turbo, you will find all parts in the forced induction system will get a work out every time you drive it. Even if you drive like a grandma, the secondary turbo will still be working.

[Sleeping Wood]

I have searched and come up with the TSB it is LTB00487v3 3.0 TDV6 Excessive exhaust smoke.
That's the technical service bulletin title, anyone know where I can get a copy to have a read, despite lots of google I cant locate it on-line.

[elsey]

My D4 also recently had the modified turbo oil grallery drain installed by LR Newcastle as I mentioned that a small amount of smoke (other than the usual black diesel smoke) had been noticed. I believe that the drain now returns the oil to the crankcase above the fill level of the oil.

Lou...

[scarry]

2: What will happen 10yrs and longer down the track with all these difficult to access turbo vehicles? People will not find it financially viable to repair these vehicles. This no doubt will dramatically affect the resale value of the model(s)

Cheers Rich

It's not just turbo's,there are heaps of things that cost thousands to fix on these vehicles.

Also what about all these software upgrades?

Does that mean for the life of the vehicle it keeps having to go to the dealer regularly for them?Can't imagine the dealer will be too interested doing a software upgrade on a 10yr plus old vehicle,or trying to even find the correct upgrade.

just my 2 cents worth.

[SBD4]

I have searched and come up with the TSB it is LTB00487v3 3.0 TDV6 Excessive exhaust smoke.
That's the technical service bulletin title, anyone know where I can get a copy to have a read, despite lots of google I cant locate it on-line.

Sleeping Wood, you can get all this from topix. You will need to sign up and pay a fee (time based) to get access to the TSB's.:

TOPIx - TOPIx (http://topix.landrover.jlrext.com)

[Graeme]

Does that mean for the life of the vehicle it keeps having to go to the dealer regularly for them?Can't imagine the dealer will be too interested doing a software upgrade on a 10yr plus old vehicle,or trying to even find the correct upgrade.Updates are automatic by VIN so as long as LR continues to provide updates for specific older models they will be available. However I would expect dealers to charge for applying the updates especially if not having the vehicle serviced at the same time, but probably even then because of the extra labour time and their investment in the diagnostic equipment.

[Graeme]

I have searched and come up with the TSB it is LTB00487v3 3.0 TDV6 Excessive exhaust smoke.
That's the technical service bulletin title, anyone know where I can get a copy to have a read, despite lots of google I cant locate it on-line.
Perhaps someone who has access can confirm this is indeed for the drain change and post it up as I'd like to know how complicated it is to do the modification. I find it embarrassing to drive a 3 yo vehicle that blows oil smoke even if it only occurs occasionally - blowing fuel smoke is bad enough.

[scarry]

Updates are automatic by VIN so as long as LR continues to provide updates for specific older models they will be available. However I would expect dealers to charge for applying the updates especially if not having the vehicle serviced at the same time, but probably even then because of the extra labour time and their investment in the diagnostic equipment.

OK,but many of us,for whatever reason, use independent specialists to service these vehicles,therefore would not get the updates,and in some,if not many cases wouldn't even know there was an update available/needed.

I can see it becoming a good money spinner for the dealers,and more than likely a PITA for the vehicle owner once it is out of warranty.

[Sleeping Wood]

After lots of reading on the DISCO3.co.uk site this post sums up the problem DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - There IS a problem with MY 3.0 litre TDV6 engine (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic55820.html)

There is a post on page 9 that describes what is being fitted..
"My smokey motor has gone in to Puntland for its 3rd visit for this issue today, to have the pipe fitted.

I have seen the pipe, it is a Jaguar part, number C2Z9795 made in the Czek Republic. It is about 8 inches long, about 3/4 inch in diameter, bent about 90 degrees in the middle, with a crenelated zone (concertina effect) around the curve, pale grey alloy, with a flange on each end, one being oval with two bolt holes and one being pear shaped with one bolt hole. I did not spot a one-way valve. A google search says it is a Jaguar Tube Drain (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1'toolid=10029&campid=CAMPAIGNID&customid=CUSTOMID&catId=6000&type=2&ext=320994682652&item=320994682652).

There was also what appeared to be a blanking plate, oval with two bolt holes.
List price is about £30."

Would be nice to know hat the TB says... few phone calls next week I think.

[Graeme]

I don't expect any more updates to my vehicle now that its out of warranty. Indeed, I wish the last gearbox s/w update done at the final warranty service hadn't been applied, having effectively deleted a feature that existed when the vehicle was purchased.

[camel_landy]

FWIW - The only problems I've found in this area is where the feed from both turbos comes together... I've had the actuator fail due to it getting clogged up with mud!! :o The car then goes into 'Reduced Performance' mode.

M

[Graeme]

It seems that my 3.0 still has an oil problem as I found the air filter again soaked in oil. I hope LR are prepared to fix it under warranty as this problem was already tried to be fixed whilst under warranty.

[Disco4SE]

It seems that my 3.0 still has an oil problem as I found the air filter again soaked in oil. I hope LR are prepared to fix it under warranty as this problem was already tried to be fixed whilst under warranty.
Graeme, you may want to think about one of these Provent 200 Oil Catch Can Diesel (http://www.carformance.com.au/products/provent-mann-hummel/provent-200.html)
I had my mechanic fit one to my new ride. He is now a convert.

Cheers, Craig

[Graeme]

I fitted the updated turbo drain pipe today so I'll see how the smoking goes after its had a chance to clean out any oil residue. The LR technical bulletin shows 1.4 hours for the job but it took me 4 hours even leaving out the temporary disconnection of 2 hoses to allow accumlated oil to drain. It was a straight-forward task, albeit getting several good doses of dirt in the face.

[Graeme]

Since fitting the updated drain pipe there has not been any smoke on startup and no smoke when booted after having cruised for many hours. I regard mine's smoke problem as fixed.

[Graeme]

I've learnt something in the last 24 hours about turbos and oil seals.

Turbos don't have much in the way of seals to prevent oil from escaping to the inlet air or the exhaust side. Any pressure on the drain side including crank-case pressure caused by faulty or inadequate PCV operation will cause the oil to go out each end of the spindle. Another cause of oil escaping, typically as engine revs increase, is excessive oil flow to the turbo, possibly due to a non-existant but required flow restrictor, as discovered when my son replaced a failed genuine turbo with a copy that doesn't have an inbuilt flow restrictor. No smoke up to fast idle but give the engine a few revs and the smokescreen obliterated the view of the street!

Anyway, I'm happier now that I understand the zero pressure requirement on the drain side of the turbo and that this has been achieved for the D4 secondary turbo with the direct drain to the sump. I no longer wonder if the turbo seals are poor and could fail before a decent working life.

[Dougal]

I've learnt something in the last 24 hours about turbos and oil seals.

Turbos don't have much in the way of seals to prevent oil from escaping to the inlet air or the exhaust side. Any pressure on the drain side including crank-case pressure caused by faulty or inadequate PCV operation will cause the oil to go out each end of the spindle. Another cause of oil escaping, typically as engine revs increase, is excessive oil flow to the turbo, possibly due to a non-existant but required flow restrictor, as discovered when my son replaced a failed genuine turbo with a copy that doesn't have an inbuilt flow restrictor. No smoke up to fast idle but give the engine a few revs and the smokescreen obliterated the view of the street!

Anyway, I'm happier now that I understand the zero pressure requirement on the drain side of the turbo and that this has been achieved for the D4 secondary turbo with the direct drain to the sump. I no longer wonder if the turbo seals are poor and could fail before a decent working life.

Yes that is exactly how they work. If anything obstructs the oil drain to the sump (for example oil backing up on a side slope or inadequate drain) then they will also start smoking.
Which I beleive is exactly the problem LR had.

But when you've removed the cause of turbo oil seals leaking, it can take some driving for the excess oil to work its way out of the intake and exhaust and for smoke to stop.
A mate bought a vehicle with a blown turbo and had to drill a drain hole in the muffler to get the oil out!

[zilch]

Is there any information on when this was cured for the 3 Litre Twin turbo's, i have a August 2010 build, so wondered if the mods were done before then, or do i have a potential chain smoker on my hands, and if yes i will be asking LR to explain why they did not change it within the warranty period.. as i did pick up excessive smoke within the first year

Thanks

Jim

after reading TSB i will be asking a Land Rover dealer in North Sydney who i purchased the vehicle from and reported the excessive smoke two years ago why did they dismiss this

[Ferret]

Is there any information on when this was cured for the 3 Litre Twin turbo's, i have a August 2010 build, so wondered if the mods were done before then, or do i have a potential chain smoker on my hands ...

I wonder about this myself. The document posted by Graeme applies to D4 2010 onwards (vin AA501078 onwards), RRS 2010 onwards (vin AA212145 onwards) and RR 2013 onwards (vin DA000012 onwards). So my take on that is that it is not cured.

The cause of the problem is identified clearly within the document.

Cause: Ineffective oil drain system.

Make you wonder why you have to complain to have it addressed when LR have identified it as an ineffective design.

[Graeme]

IIRC the direct drain wasn't factory fitted until late 2012.

[Graeme]

This is a more appropriate copy. I couldn't delete the previous copy so deleted the post.
82610

[Parkes]

I have a late 2012 model and we had excessive smoke from the start. Mentioned it at the initial 3 or 6 month check up and it was the turbo drain issue. Fixed the drain and she's been fine from then on. Can't remember the build date but it was right at the end of the MY12 period, got it about two weeks before the MY13 was released.