Vibration in my butt with Tom Wood's shaft :)

[Dockstrada]

So I just fitted a Tom Wood DBL Cardan shaft today and I noticed a vibration only under heavy acceleration at around 60kph then it smoothens out after that.
I’m thinking I still need radial arms to re position the diff to its normal position. I'm yet to contact Tom for advice. Any ideas?


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1576.jpg

[Drover]

Hi Dock,

Shaft looks good. Is it a greaseless centre joint on the DC ?

Any chance of couple of close up pic's of he DC. The DC joint looks similar to joint that Cummings Truck machine shop use on my DC shaft.

Your vibration issue may disappear with Caster Correction arms, they will align the to TC and diff flanges. For 50mm lift use 3 degree arms.

I have recently fitted the TerraFirma version to achieve alignment, I was lucky enough not have any vibration issues, but I did have a Gibson DC shaft fail with only 4000k's on it.(prior to the CC arms being fitted)

Cheers
Grant

[JC Rover]

I've not long had mine, and I'm getting a little vibration around 80km/hr to 90km/hr. How big is your lift?

Jono

[Slunnie]

Sorry for the tangent... as always....

What is that service tool? Is that to grease the centre bearing?

[LowRanger]

The centre bearing on the Woods Double Cardan joint is greasable,and the tool is for doing the job.Or you can use a needle type attachment.

[Drover]

Hi Lowranger,

Do you know, is the DC joint a CVK2a ?

Cheers

[LowRanger]

Hi Lowranger,

Do you know, is the DC joint a CVK2a ?

Cheers

I have checked the Woods site and there is no parts listing,I have also checked the joint and there is no part number stamped on it.I just went and checked the sizes on my joint,compared to the CVK2a listed on the Hardy Spicer web site,as listed to fit Land Rover 6x6,and the sizes are different for both the centre line length and the spigot diameter.The CVK2a has a longer centre line distance ,but the woods has a larger spigot diameter.

[Slunnie]

I'm pretty sure that many of those parts are unique to Tom. He was saying to me that there was not a really good DC joint out there, the strong ones were not servicable and the servicable ones were not strong. He ended up manufacturing (or having manufactured) his own from cast steel that included the servicability so that he could have the best of both worlds with both life and strength. This is for the Rover Disco2 pattern DC joint.

[rick130]

It's interesting that the Bailey-Morris shafts couldn't handle sustained high speed/heat (ie. normal cruising/touring) and were pooping themselves at (I think) the centring bearing.

Was it yours that did that Drover ?

[chook73]

It's interesting that the Bailey-Morris shafts couldn't handle sustained high speed/heat (ie. normal cruising/touring) and were pooping themselves at (I think) the centring bearing.

Was it yours that did that Drover ?

It was my bailey Morris that had the joint go in it after just 19,000km, when we went back to them they said that their shafts were only designed for low speed crawling type applications and should not be used for high speed touring. This despite their website claims as being the toughest shafts on the market.......


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[Dockstrada]

So today I went out and bought a set of Terrafirma 3 degree radial arms. After fitting the bushes I installed them, which only took from wheels of to wheels back on, 1h 20m, quiet an easy job.

All excited I took her out for a spin and nothing has changed. could it be that I need a adjustable panhard rod to re center the diff after the lift ?

I’m scratching my head at this point. I have sent a message to tom Wood, I hope he has an answer.

Process

Fitt bushes to new radial arms

lift truck and set on stands

Remove Tie rod end

Unbolt sway bar from top mount

Remove old radial arms

All in reverse again.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1536.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1537.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1538.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1539.jpg

[Dockstrada]

Just thought I'd add some pics of the shaft and CV angles.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1534.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1535.jpg

[Dockstrada]

I've not long had mine, and I'm getting a little vibration around 80km/hr to 90km/hr. How big is your lift?

Jono

lift is about 40mm over all only in the front , But im starting to think that it may have already had L/R HD springs fitted by the previous owner.

So in not sure right now .

I have aprox 125mm between the bump stop and diff pad .

[Dockstrada]

Hi Dock,

Shaft looks good. Is it a greaseless centre joint on the DC ?

Any chance of couple of close up pic's of he DC. The DC joint looks similar to joint that Cummings Truck machine shop use on my DC shaft.

Your vibration issue may disappear with Caster Correction arms, they will align the to TC and diff flanges. For 50mm lift use 3 degree arms.

I have recently fitted the TerraFirma version to achieve alignment, I was lucky enough not have any vibration issues, but I did have a Gibson DC shaft fail with only 4000k's on it.(prior to the CC arms being fitted)

Cheers
Grant

Nah it was supplyed with a service tool so I asume it contains grease.
Pic uploded best i could do .

[chook73]

Have you had a balance and alignment done after all of your suspension changes?


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[Drover]

Hey Dock,

Sorry to hear it didn't fix your vibration. In any case it will make evrything aligned, so you didn't waste your money.

Your front end is dead ringer for mine.(arms, shocks, lift)

I only got 40mm lift from my front springs due to bull bar and winch.

I would go and get a wheel alignment as your next step. I have an adjustable panard rod but I am not sure if it is required. I only have it as it much heavier duty than the stock unit.

Good luck

[Dockstrada]

Nah haven’t had it balanced or any alignment done. I find it strange that they may play a part since the vibration has only shown it’s self after I fitted the CV shaft.

Is there a torque setting for the M20 nut on the rear of the arms ?
I m guessing if they are over tightened the can drag the arms back and alter the castor angle.

I did on the other hand have a small vibration at around 80kph before the CV but after fitting a 10mm spacer to the rear which went under the bottom rear coil retainer plate.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1532.jpg

[chook73]

Didn't the vibration start after you changed the suspension setup hence the reason for the dc shaft? I found with mine that even a 10mm change threw everything out which is why I eventually took it to a specialist as I was constantly chasing the problem with no satisfactory result.

The reason I mentioned the balance and alignment as I found them to be so sensitive after each change.


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[dullbird]

It was my bailey Morris that had the joint go in it after just 19,000km, when we went back to them they said that their shafts were only designed for low speed crawling type applications and should not be used for high speed touring. This despite their website claims as being the toughest shafts on the market.......


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Total 360 with me though told me there is nothing wrong with using their shafts for highway use at all....and advised that the staff member that you guys had spoken to was wrong with what he had told you...apparently advised that in not so many words is a guy that always looks on the negative and is doom and gloom but he had not provided the correct information regarding their shafts.

they advised me that they source the best materials possible for their shafts and told me to continue using the shaft touring in Australia because it shouldnt be a problem they also advised they did change their design something like 18months ago but even so of the 100's they have sold they have only had 3 shafts return with a failure yours being one of them.

I basically told them that I would keep their shaft (and the emails they know I have other emails too regarding the other info they have given) if it was like they say nothing wrong with using it, but also told them that if this shaft lets go they are going to bloody know about it!!!

[Dockstrada]

Didn't the vibration start after you changed the suspension setup hence the reason for the dc shaft? I found with mine that even a 10mm change threw everything out which is why I eventually took it to a specialist as I was constantly chasing the problem with no satisfactory result.

The reason I mentioned the balance and alignment as I found them to be so sensitive after each change.


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Nah the reason I fitted the shaft was for the binding issue after fitting the +50 shocks .

Did you sort your issues ? who did you use ?

[chook73]

Nah the reason I fitted the shaft was for the binding issue after fitting the +50 shocks .

Did you sort your issues ? who did you use ?

I took it out to ken at ultimate suspension on the recommendation of a few people on here. He weighed each corner and fitted a suspension system to suit the truck weight and my needs. Now I must add that I pick it up today so I can't comment on it just yet however he has committed that if its not right he will keep working on it until I am happy as part of the price. He called the other day to say he wasn't happy with the sway bars so he is remaking them and to me that's service that you don't often see any more.

The puma's seem to be so sensitive, my old gq patrol got a 2" lift and larger Tyres the week I bought it and in the 8 years I owned it I never had a problem. I only put a 35mm lift onto the puma and its not been right since with vibration and binding on the shaft and sway bars to a thrown dc shaft.

There are a few people like drover who have managed to get it to work first time and there are some like me who have used the same lift and components and haven't.

I would recommend a balance and alignment anyway before you go too much further.


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[Dockstrada]

Looking over some Pics last night , I noticed that I had tightened the M20 nut on the chassis side deeper on to the treads than from the standard arms.

So last night I crawled under the truck and backed the nut off until 2 threads from the end which moved the diff forward 15mm , The vibration is noticeably better almost gone.


I wonder if there is a measurement that needs to be adhered too in this area.

[Dockstrada]

Just found this information re the M20 torque setting .


"Fit and tighten nut securing radius arm to
chassis member to 175 Nm, 130 lbf ft."

[LowRanger]

Looking over some Pics last night , I noticed that I had tightened the M20 nut on the chassis side deeper on to the treads than from the standard arms.

So last night I crawled under the truck and backed the nut off until 2 threads from the end which moved the diff forward 15mm , The vibration is noticeably better almost gone.


I wonder if there is a measurement that needs to be adhered too in this area.

There is a known problem that can occur with the Pumas,where the wheel base can be different from side to side,and SuperPro,on their website actually have spacers to rectify it.

[LowRanger]

Looking over some Pics last night , I noticed that I had tightened the M20 nut on the chassis side deeper on to the treads than from the standard arms.

So last night I crawled under the truck and backed the nut off until 2 threads from the end which moved the diff forward 15mm , The vibration is noticeably better almost gone.


I wonder if there is a measurement that needs to be adhered too in this area.

I think you have hit the nail on the head and found the cause,the cause being the angle of the front diff,causing compound angles at the pinion flange great enough to induce a vibration in the drive line.

[Drover]

Looking over some Pics last night , I noticed that I had tightened the M20 nut on the chassis side deeper on to the treads than from the standard arms.

So last night I crawled under the truck and backed the nut off until 2 threads from the end which moved the diff forward 15mm , The vibration is noticeably better almost gone.


I wonder if there is a measurement that needs to be adhered too in this area.


Wow I must have had so fluked it:D. First go to......

Anyway glad to hear it is sorted.

Cheers

[Dockstrada]

Wow I must have had so flunked it:D. First go to......

Anyway glad to hear it is sorted.

Cheers

Well it's not sorted as the torque setting for the m20 is 175Nm which means that the nut is wound right up, and the vibration is back.

I did measure the diff for center today it is 20mm to the driver’s side which puts the shaft at a bit of compound angle. I have since bought a T/F adjustable panhard rod, Il get it fitted tomorrow and see what happens.

I’m also going to machine up some spacers to space the arms forward 12mm.

[Dockstrada]

Wow I must have had so flunked it:D. First go to......

Anyway glad to hear it is sorted.

Cheers

Hey drover what coils U running in the front and rear ?

Did you use a T/F adjustable phanard rod ?

What Brand coils and lift size please.

[Drover]

Hey Dock,

Front springs are Old Man Emu 767x +50mm
Shock + 50mm TF ProSport
TF 3 degree Caster Correction arms

Rear springs are TF Heavy Duty + 50mm (articulation is reasonable, but I need them for towing my off road van)
Shocks TF BigBores, standard length.
+ 50mm PloyAir - air bags
TF cranked rear trailing arms

Panard Rod and steering rods are all Heavy Duty TF.

Cheers

[Dockstrada]

Hey Dock,

Front springs are Old Man Emu 767x +50mm
Shock + 50mm TF ProSport
TF 3 degree Caster Correction arms

Rear springs are TF Heavy Duty + 50mm (articulation is reasonable, but I need them for towing my off road van)
Shocks TF BigBores, standard length.
+ 50mm PloyAir - air bags
TF cranked rear trailing arms

Panard Rod and steering rods are all Heavy Duty TF.

Cheers


Very similar to mine, so maybe my misalignment of the axel could be the missing link.

Il throw in the Panard Rod , let’s wait and see.


The only other difference is the +50 springs on the rear.

I also have a theory that maybe the rear springs although the rear sits visualy a little higher than the front aprox 15mm its still too low, which is causing the front to point skyward not visually just in geometry and adding extra shaft angle on the front shaft.

Like I said in one of my previous posts, once I added a 10mm spacer to the rear my initial vibration with the standard shaft disappeared.

Like in my previous pic of the cardan shaft it still has quite allot of angle.

The castor correction and the DBL cardan shaft have now increased the front shaft angle by rotating the diff down and moving the last top uni forward .

Which in my theory if I add extra lift to the rear it will decrease this angle
by alinging the T/C flange and the Diff flange faces .



Just a theory

[Drover]

+50mm Front springs are actually 50mm longer that stock springs, but rear +50mm are the same length.:eek:

The lift is achieved by a stiffer rate.

In any case the height of rear will have no consequence on the front prop angle. If you think about it the rear height would only pivot the front wheels on the stub axels, not actually affect the front suspension/diff position to the chassis.

The TC case flange, on a PUMA, points to the floor (up), but as the front suspension or lift or travels down, the top of the diff flange travel away from the top of the TC flange, the bottom of each flange travel together.

The CC arms cause the top of the of the diff flange to rotate towards the rear of the vehicle, or causing a better alignment of the two flanges.

The flanges needs to be within 3 degree of being parallel. The height difference is not the major issue. That's why we use a DC joint, but not even the DC joint can compensate of the not being parallel. It causes the centre bearing to over work, over heat and inevitabley it will fail.

(If you decipher that mess that I just wrote....well done)

Cheers

[Dockstrada]

My flanges look like this , well very similer T/C flange points more twards the sky .

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1462.jpg

[Naks]

So I just fitted a Tom Wood DBL Cardan shaft today and I noticed a vibration only under heavy acceleration at around 60kph then it smoothens out after that. I’m thinking I still need radial arms to re position the diff to its normal position. I'm yet to contact Tom for advice. Any ideas?


Maybe it's slightly out of phase? Or is it one of those where that's not applicable?

[Drover]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1462.jpg

Nice picture, do you have one for a standard shaft ?

I am struggling to understand the role of the DC joint in your picture. With that said, I just looked at mine and it also appears to be per your picture. :confused:

My "long winded"explanation is solely based on advice from Cumming Trucks machine shop. Who advised to perform the caster correction for longjebity of the DC shaft, the machine shop manger spoke at length about 3 degree maximum variation in flange angles.

[Dockstrada]

Nice picture, do you have one for a standard shaft ?

I am struggling to understand the role of the DC joint in your picture. With that said, I just looked at mine and it also appears to be per your picture. :confused:

My "long winded"explanation is solely based on advice from Cumming Trucks machine shop. Who advised to perform the caster correction for longjebity of the DC shaft, the machine shop manger spoke at length about 3 degree maximum variation in flange angles.

yeah im just thinking outside the square at the moment .

Just checked the angle of the T/C flange using the iphone level :( and it was aprox 11 degree diff flange was aprox -3.6 degree and shaft angle was aprox 15.5 degree .
so if anyone can work that out, great . let me know if im in a world of hurt .


Pic as requested .

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1505.jpg

[Dockstrada]

Maybe it's slightly out of phase? Or is it one of those where that's not applicable?

Ok Il ask ! what's out of phase mean ?

[slug_burner]

Dockstrada,

Try this

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1502.jpg

[Drover]

Ok Il ask ! what's out of phase mean ?

It can occur when the slip joint is pull apart and not put back together in original position misaligning the splines, causing the uni to be out of phase.

Normally the to halves of the shaft will have an indicator on each to align to. Sometimes it is just a painted mark.

[Bush65]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1462.jpg

This drawing is correct for when a double cardan joint (also known as constant velocity or CV joint) is used.

The pair of joints in the double cardan joint are forced (by the centre ball) to work at equal angles. Because the angles are equal the angular velocity of the driveshaft is the same as the transfer case output shaft (this is why they are also called constant velocity).

The standard cardan joint at the diff end should only have a small angle change. As stated less than 3 degrees, but less is better. Some people like a slight change so the needle rollers don't stay static.

Only at zero angle will the angular velocity of the diff pinion be equal to the angular velocity. As angle change increases, the angular velocity changes 4 times per revolution. Change in angular velocity = angular acceleration and this is what causes vibration in this case.

The first pic (Tom Woods shaft) and this drawing show the 2nd joint of the double cardan joint and the joint at the diff in phase. This is how it should be.

[Drover]

The standard cardan joint at the diff end should only have a small angle change. As stated less than 3 degrees, but less is better.

I now assume that this is what o'l mate at Cummings Trucks was referring to. It seems that I have totally misunderstood the whole " 3 degree" thing.

At least I'm on to it now.

[Dockstrada]

Ok so today I fitted the Terrafirma adjustable panhard rod to the fender. It easy job, took about 40min including adjusting the steering wheel.

The axel was 22mm out of center towards the driver’s side. Once I corrected that the it shifted the bottom uni and shaft to more of an aligned position.i suspect this was the culprit I was looking for .

I took it for a squirt and hey presto the vibration is virtually gone, more than expectable. After I returned I spun up a new 20mm spaces for the rear coils in replacement for the 10mm one I had installed earlier, I took it out for another spin and now it’s as smooth as silk.

Woohoo ! im a happy little vegimite :)

Next I intend to buy some front dislocation cones rear cranked rear radial arms and a full bush kit then fab up an offset front swaybar spacer, down 22mm and back 10mm .

After that Il stop messing with the suspension and start to fit it up for camping and playing.

[Drover]

Good news, you must be relieved.

[Dockstrada]

Good news, you must be relieved.


**** yeah it was doing my head in ..

Thanks for your help :)