Water injection

[Jason F]

I don't seem to see any threads on water injection ?

Its a proven technology to utilise the excess heat by turing the water into steam. It was popular in the 70s but died off as the down side to this was getting water past the pistons into the oil, which is bad.

However, what I was wondering was, if a high pressure pump with fine atomiser nozzel was used instead, to simply add some vapour to the inlet air on a hot day?

Much like when the vehicle runs better on damp days due to the cooler wetter more oxygenated air.

Rather than fitting a larger intercooler, I thought that a manual switch could be used when pulling a heavy load uphill to give a bit more grunt.

Surely people have tried this ? but I suppose getting a small high pressure pump is the hard part?

[bee utey]

I have run water injection to quench pinging on high compression engines, not sure how much use it would be on a low comp engine. You can use a washer bottle pump with an adjustable vacuum switch and a LPG safety cut-out (or microswitch on the throttle lever) , just aim your nozzle into the intake before the throttle. Metering by fish tank bubble hose adjuster..

BTW damp air has no more free oxygen than dry air, it's all around 21%...

[PhilipA]

Nitrous Oxide would be more effective in giving That little shot of extra power.

Regards Philip A

[LandyAndy]

I had water injection on a tough 302 ford V8 back in the 80's.
It was suposed to stop detonation,wasnt much good and sometimes syphoned back into the engine when not running.
In the end I turfed it and got slightly thicker head gaskets to reduce the compression.
It worked best with a 25% to 50% metho spirits mix;););););)
Andrew

[Bigbjorn]

Water or water/alcohol injection was popular in the early-mid 1950's in Australia. We were importing cars that needed higher octane fuel than was sold in Australia. Water injection was a method of maintaining ignition advance and thus full performance. Otherwise the new higher compression engines would have to operate with retarded timing. The use disappeared within a couple of of years of "Super" petrol becoming available.

Its other use was in high performance turbocharged aircraft engines in WW2. When a pilot pushed the throttle to Military Emergency Power, or "through the gate" as it was termed, water-methanol injection was activated. This acted as an extra intercooler (latent heat of evaporation) allowing the addition of extra fuel to the denser air charge thus more power. A tell-tale was activated under the cowling to tell the ground crew that a pilot had used emergency power. USAAF rule was that an engine used in this way had to be removed from service for teardown, inspection, and overhaul.

[Davehoos]

I had a electronic water injection unit in the 80's.and added metho some times.gave a clean cyl head.

very good in the heavy polution detuned days with my starfire commodore and 85 bluebird.allowed you to run advance in the leyland in hot weather.

my RAAF mates reversed engineered it and improved the circuits.-they also added a MSD system and mult coil.

mitubishi chain drive lancer with 4X GT40R cascade switched.
dick smith point assisted ignition modified to give 7 sparks a go------2x 80 amp alternators-one delta wound to feed the current draw and stop the engine missfiring when the 4 driving lights was turned on.

bizzar now you buy a cheep car with more high tech

[manic]

I'd be tempted to try it on a Tdi that has EGT issues on hills.

I found this kit which looks like it would work great with tdi, it has a boost pressure adjusted switch that can be tuned to kick in between 0-60psi.
200 psi water alcohol methanol injection kit turbo sc | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/110679586274)

I figure I could have an enabling switch on the dash and if my EFT gauge ever beeps at me I can flip the switch to cool her down or have the EGT alarm switch it on. It would only be used on those rare occasions, not looking to dump a power boost on the old motor - purely for emergency cooling of EGT's.

Would it be best to inject before the intercooler or after?

I doubt I will end up doing this anytime soon if at all because of the multitude of other things I need to spend money on

... but given this kit would it be a bad idea to install it for emergency EGT reduction on a tdi?

[two up]

Water methanol injection is very good at reducing egts and giving you an extra boost in power at high boost settings. Devilsown do a very good kit with a progressive controller to give you complete control. I have been using it on my patrol for the past 6 months. I have a 2gph nozzle pre turbo and a 3gph nozzle pre intake manifold. It is set to start injecting at 10 psi and reach 100% at 17 psi. Egts pre wm injection would peak at about 500 degrees c post turbo, now they peak at about 400, power at full injection is noticably higher. I run a 50:50mix of water and methanol for an increase in power but you could run 100% water for egt cooling only. Have a read of their website, other manufacturers include coolingmist and snow performance.

[Mick_Marsh]

Much like when the vehicle runs better on damp days due to the cooler wetter more oxygenated air.
You're getting a little confused.
The cooler the air, the denser the air. It has no more oxygen in percentage terms but has more molecules of air (nitrogen, oxygen, argon, carbon dioxide, hydrogen, Neon, helium, krypton, xenon) per volume. You would also be using more fuel.
I have a cold air intake which supposedly gives me an extra 3kW.
In the chemical burn of the air/fuel mix, water is a waste product. If I remember the old chemistry days correctly, at standard temperature and pressure, the volume of water produced is greater than the volume of fuel used.
I think you'd get more bang for your buck if you turbocharged the thing.

[austastar]

Hi,
like this? (http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/)

cheers

[kreecha]

I see some interest generated here concerning water injection, and when time allows I will post my complete install in the members rides section. For now I will just list the information and stats I have collected.

I have used a snow performance kit, and yes it does achieve a purpose, it is not however all that I am after; more on that later.

Firstly, I am using a snow performance kit. It is a stage 2 diesel boost cooler with a 60ml/min nozzle. I have my water pump mounted behind the passenger side headlight where a dual battery can be mounted. I have my injection nozzle mounted in the outlet pipe on the top tank of the intercooler. As the water reservoir, I initially used the supplied water tank, but at just over 1 liter it doesn't last long enough, so I am using the headlight washer hose from the windscreen washer bottle. This gives me about 5 liters useable water. I never use Metho it is too expensive. I have the adjustable controller set to start injection at 6psi. Full injection is programmed to be delivered at 19psi. My boost is only set at max 14psi though.

The purpose: the purpose that I employ the water injection for is dropping EGT's. On a recent Darwin-Brisbane return I collated some data as follows;

Between Avon downs and the NT/QLD border at 60kph @ 1230 the gauges showed the same EGT as doing 100kph @ 0200-0600 due to a 40km/h headwind. Boost was 4psi. Ambient temperature at 1230 was 36degC. At 0600, the temp was 20degC. (This was prior to water injection).

@ 100kph EGT 550degC block temp 97degC steady boost 11-12psi headwind dependent (strong headwind)

@ 100kph EGT 480degC block temp 94degC steady boost 9.5psi headwind dependent (small headwind)

I noted that a small ambient temp increase = large EGT increase.

With water injection I observed @ 105kp/h EGT 480degC block temp 92degC boost 10

A major positive that I also found is that not only does the water injection drop EGT's but it lowered my coolant (block) temps on average about 3-4degC. Mid-range boost was also slightly increased when injecting, but I would like a dyno run to prove it, this could be psychological.

Lastly; I need to address the system due to it's design shortfall's. If I do not prime the pump (suck water through the line) then the boost in the intercooler pushes the water past the pump and it runs dry. As soon as this happens I no longer get any injection. To overcome this I will fit a boost switch controlled solenoid between the pump and injection nozzle. I will set the adjustable injection controller to commence injection at about 5.5psi. I will then set the boost switch to open the solenoid at 7psi. This will overcome the pump-dry scenario.
I have the adjustable injection controller mounted under the passenger seat at the moment, but I will be moving it to under the bonnet.

I also have to increase my water storage solution because at the moment I use 5 1/2 liters of water in an hour at 100km/h.

I have found the initial outlay was expensive, but I have offset the cost because I used to use Cost Effective Maintenance de-carboniser religiously. Instead of the de-carboniser I now use the water injection to steam clean the inside of the engine.

[manic]

I see some interest generated here concerning water injection, and when time allows I will post my complete install in the members rides section. For now I will just list the information and stats I have collected.

I have used a snow performance kit, and yes it does achieve a purpose, it is not however all that I am after; more on that later.

Firstly, I am using a snow performance kit. It is a stage 2 diesel boost cooler with a 60ml/min nozzle. I have my water pump mounted behind the passenger side headlight where a dual battery can be mounted. I have my injection nozzle mounted in the outlet pipe on the top tank of the intercooler. As the water reservoir, I initially used the supplied water tank, but at just over 1 liter it doesn't last long enough, so I am using the headlight washer hose from the windscreen washer bottle. This gives me about 5 liters useable water. I never use Metho it is too expensive. I have the adjustable controller set to start injection at 6psi. Full injection is programmed to be delivered at 19psi. My boost is only set at max 14psi though.

The purpose: the purpose that I employ the water injection for is dropping EGT's. On a recent Darwin-Brisbane return I collated some data as follows;

Between Avon downs and the NT/QLD border at 60kph @ 1230 the gauges showed the same EGT as doing 100kph @ 0200-0600 due to a 40km/h headwind. Boost was 4psi. Ambient temperature at 1230 was 36degC. At 0600, the temp was 20degC. (This was prior to water injection).

@ 100kph EGT 550degC block temp 97degC steady boost 11-12psi headwind dependent (strong headwind)

@ 100kph EGT 480degC block temp 94degC steady boost 9.5psi headwind dependent (small headwind)

I noted that a small ambient temp increase = large EGT increase.

With water injection I observed @ 105kp/h EGT 480degC block temp 92degC boost 10

A major positive that I also found is that not only does the water injection drop EGT's but it lowered my coolant (block) temps on average about 3-4degC. Mid-range boost was also slightly increased when injecting, but I would like a dyno run to prove it, this could be psychological.

Lastly; I need to address the system due to it's design shortfall's. If I do not prime the pump (suck water through the line) then the boost in the intercooler pushes the water past the pump and it runs dry. As soon as this happens I no longer get any injection. To overcome this I will fit a boost switch controlled solenoid between the pump and injection nozzle. I will set the adjustable injection controller to commence injection at about 5.5psi. I will then set the boost switch to open the solenoid at 7psi. This will overcome the pump-dry scenario.
I have the adjustable injection controller mounted under the passenger seat at the moment, but I will be moving it to under the bonnet.

I also have to increase my water storage solution because at the moment I use 5 1/2 liters of water in an hour at 100km/h.

I have found the initial outlay was expensive, but I have offset the cost because I used to use Cost Effective Maintenance de-carboniser religiously. Instead of the de-carboniser I now use the water injection to steam clean the inside of the engine.

Nice, what are you driving?

I want to install something like that but have my EGT sensor activate the water injection system only when the EGTs gets over a certain level, say around 450c. I figure this way it will only use water when needed which might allow 5L to last between fuel stops? I usually see temps between 350 and 480C at 100kph unless struggling up a hill where it can start to rocket up through the 500's.

Thanks for the info, its good to hear that you have found it effective at lowering coolant temp and EGT's. Lower temps is what I'm after!

[kreecha]

Ahh,
I wondered where all my info got to.

Manic, I drive a S1 Disco with the 300TDI.

I think it would be a good idea to have the EGT sensor activate the water injection system because then the gains would be even more impressive, and the water usage would be directly linked to the load. (more load = higher EGT's).

However, going on your expectation of only using water when needed this way, I would be confident that 5L of water will not last between fuel stops. i have quite a large water usage, and was surprised with just how much was actually consumed.

I had a colleague in Darwin who had water injection in a D2 operated off of only boost, and around town (little load) he would consume 5L in about 3days, well short of the fuel tank running dry.

I see that you indicated that you see temps of 350 and 480C at 100km/h. Is this pre or post turbo? As you can see from my collated data my EGT's are a great deal higher.

I am, on a side note, internally cleaning my intercooler this weekend to ensure that it is not gummed up with oil, and rubbish therefore being as effective as LR designed.

Lower temps are a good thing and whilst I understand that 300TDI's do run hot, I know that the closer I can get the engine to maintain 89-93C the longer everything from head gaskets, p-gaskets, and anything in the engine bay will last. My experience with MTU's constructed similarly to the 300TDI has proven this.

I am pleased to see you appreciated the info, and if I have been a help then that is good to hear. As my system progresses in size and complexity i will be sure to post up my trials and triumphs.

Cheers, Adam.

[kreecha]

G'day to all those watching this thread with interest.

As a quick update, I have spent a great deal of time considerIng what requirements I have of my WI system including that of the 300tdi, and what I can best build to suit my requirements, driving style and climate.

As a consequence I have recently purchased some equipment to expand the current configuration I have installed.

What I have currently installed;
Window washer reservoir - pump - 60ml/min nozzle.

I am currently experiencing cavitation with the pump, which is the snow performance ultra high output pump, and as I found, I do not have the integrated check valve. This means that the boost is pushing the water past the pump towards the reservoir, and as a result the pump cavitates. Not good.

The system I intend to build will incorporate a few ideas.
I will be installing a check valve between the pump and the nozzle designed to operate when the pump is activated from the standard progressive controller. This will hopefully stop the pump cavitating.
I will also be installing a tee piece in the system to run at least 1 extra nozzle. The second nozzle will be controlled by a boost switch and solenoid.

As for nozzle placement;
I Have the original nozzle mounted in the intercooler outlet pipe.
The second nozzle I intend to place in the system will be in the pipe work coming out of the turbo compressor housing.
The possible third nozzle I intend to use will be mounted pre-turbo, where I intend to spray directly onto the compressor wheel.

After much googling and study and also this informative post found here: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1447718-post33.html this shows how heated the compressed air is discharging from the compressor wheel. I believe that a nozzle mounted in the pipe work from turbo will be beneficial for a few reasons including; water turning to steam may increase the effeciency of the compressor by (chemically/artificially) increasing the boost, water turning to steam will steam clean the inlet tract of the oil found in it (including the intercooler which is filthy inside!!), water turning to steam in this pipe will assist the factory intercooler.

Pre-turbo injection is understood to be very beneficial due to its ability to artificially make the turbo act as a bigger turbo.

Some of the considerations I have made in regards to the disadvantages to what I intend to do are;
The WI could pool in the intercooler,
The WI could make the factory intercooler less efficient,
The WI could WILL erode the compressor wheel.

Cheers, Adam.

[Blknight.aus]

what you need to do is use boost pressure from the turbo bleed point that drives the compensator and waste gate actuator to pressurize the storage tank install a carburetor like venturi after the turbo charger and then simply fit a small irrigation solenoid,.

[two up]

what you need to do is use boost pressure from the turbo bleed point that drives the compensator and waste gate actuator to pressurize the storage tank install a carburetor like venturi after the turbo charger and then simply fit a small irrigation solenoid,.

No that is not the way to go, if you intend to stay with the current system place a check valve just before your nozzle. If you intend to upgrade to 2 or more nozzles you will have to use solenoids especially pre turbo. You do not want any dribble pre turbo because that is what will destroy compressor blades. You will not really benefit from having an additional nozzle post turbo you will however gain a large benefit if you install a nozzle pre turbo. You wont however have much of a cleaning effect in the intercooler with straight water, you will need methanol for this. It will clean the engine well but not the piping or intercooler. Your turbo will not convert the water to steam if you install a nozzle pre turbo. It may occur with very high pressures, but unless you constantly run 15 psi + the air and turbo wont get hot enough to convert the water to steam, within 1 minute of your system activating the compressor cover will be cool to the touch. If you want the largest benefit from your system run water and methanol at 50:50, you will see a reduction of approx 100 degrees Celsius in your egts whilst boosting power by approx 15%. I run a combined 5gph in injected fluid but I could easily triple that for added performance but then it becomes costly.

If I was to advise on your install I would say use a 1gph pre turbo and a 3gph pre intake manifold. Start injecting at a boost pressure that is about 3psi above cruise and have 100% injection set at your current max boost.., use 50:50 methanol with tank or distilled water. Using that formula will give me about 1000k of hilly highway driving in a heavily loaded vehicle whilst using about 20lt of fluid.

[Jason F]

I have a 300 tdi also.

Anyone worried about water getting past the pistons and ruining the oil?

[Blknight.aus]

No that is not the way to go, if you intend to stay with the current system place a check valve just before your nozzle. If you intend to upgrade to 2 or more nozzles you will have to use solenoids especially pre turbo. You do not want any dribble pre turbo because that is what will destroy compressor blades. You will not really benefit from having an additional nozzle post turbo you will however gain a large benefit if you install a nozzle pre turbo. You wont however have much of a cleaning effect in the intercooler with straight water, you will need methanol for this. It will clean the engine well but not the piping or intercooler. Your turbo will not convert the water to steam if you install a nozzle pre turbo. It may occur with very high pressures, but unless you constantly run 15 psi + the air and turbo wont get hot enough to convert the water to steam, within 1 minute of your system activating the compressor cover will be cool to the touch. If you want the largest benefit from your system run water and methanol at 50:50, you will see a reduction of approx 100 degrees Celsius in your egts whilst boosting power by approx 15%. I run a combined 5gph in injected fluid but I could easily triple that for added performance but then it becomes costly.

If I was to advise on your install I would say use a 1gph pre turbo and a 3gph pre intake manifold. Start injecting at a boost pressure that is about 3psi above cruise and have 100% injection set at your current max boost.., use 50:50 methanol with tank or distilled water. Using that formula will give me about 1000k of hilly highway driving in a heavily loaded vehicle whilst using about 20lt of fluid.

you use the pre intercooler air to pressurise the water tank, you deliver it post intercooler. then depending on the efficiency of your intercooler you're already in front of the game for delivery pressure.

The shape of the delivery mechanism after the intercooler needs to be like the venturi in a carby but if you want to get exotic you really need and induction ring setup like they use in the dyson bladeless fans.

[Dougal]

Its other use was in high performance turbocharged aircraft engines in WW2. When a pilot pushed the throttle to Military Emergency Power, or "through the gate" as it was termed, water-methanol injection was activated. This acted as an extra intercooler (latent heat of evaporation) allowing the addition of extra fuel to the denser air charge thus more power. A tell-tale was activated under the cowling to tell the ground crew that a pilot had used emergency power. USAAF rule was that an engine used in this way had to be removed from service for teardown, inspection, and overhaul.

But the reality was a bit different. I worked with an ex WW2 RAF mechanic, he said they had no time to rebuild engines that had been pushed through the gate. They simply crimped new seals on the throttle and pushed them back out.


I'd be tempted to try it on a Tdi that has EGT issues on hills.

Then you need more boost and/or better intercooling, not water injection. It's that simple.

There is no such thing as "emergency high EGT". Either the tune is safe and produces safe EGT or it's not.

[kreecha]

I have a 300 tdi also.

Anyone worried about water getting past the pistons and ruining the oil?

Hi Jason,
When I discussed the water injection with my dad he voiced his concern of water in oil due to the high volume of water I was injecting in my attempt to use water injection as an intercooling method.

But I dispelled this concern recently on a drive from Darwin to Coober Pedy. During the drive I had a 44-gallon drum in the back of my disco with a 10% methanol mix. I used all 200L before I arrived at Coober Pedy. And I had nice clean oil. And I had great fuel economy. And I had lower EGT's. And I had lower block (coolant) temps. BUT after some feedback from my wife, using water/methanol at an average consumption rate of about 1L per 11km is not sustainable.

Therefore I bought a allisport double core intercooler and now I am progressing my system to develop some new results.

Cheers, Davo.

[kreecha]

Then you need more boost and/or better intercooling, not water injection. It's that simple.

There is no such thing as "emergency high EGT". Either the tune is safe and produces safe EGT or it's not.

Agreed.I have experienced this first hand and agree that the tune is the issue.

As Dougal said.
Reduce fuel, or
Intercool more effeciently, or
Increase Boost, or
Lean off of throttle, or
Change Gears.

I prefer options 1, 2, and 3. I do not like 'user input' to control the EGT's as it makes me really nervous when my wife drives and doesn't comprehend EGT's above 650DegC and the damage that can occur.

Or use a combination. WI is not the fix-all I had hoped. It is however a damn good fuel economy booster, and fantastic at decreasing the block (coolant) temps

Cheers, Adam.

[kreecha]

Agreed.I have experienced this first hand and agree that the tune is the issue.

As Dougal said.
Reduce fuel, or
Intercool more effeciently, or
Increase Boost, or
Lean off of throttle, or
Change Gears.

I prefer options 1, 2, and 3. I do not like 'user input' to control the EGT's as it makes me really nervous when my wife drives and doesn't comprehend EGT's above 650DegC and the damage that can occur.

Or use a combination. WI is not the fix-all I had hoped. It is however a damn good fuel economy booster, and fantastic at decreasing the block (coolant) temps

Cheers, Adam.

Oh and in retrospect of all this,
I will absolutely continue to use WI.

[Dougal]

Or use a combination. WI is not the fix-all I had hoped. It is however a damn good fuel economy booster, and fantastic at decreasing the block (coolant) temps

Cheers, Adam.

Were you including the energy content of the methanol in your fuel economy calcs?
Not to mention, carting around 200 litres (kg's) extra. :eek:

[kreecha]

Were you including the energy content of the methanol in your fuel economy calcs?
Not to mention, carting around 200 litres (kg's) extra. :eek:

What do you mean by calculating the energy content of the methanol?

When acounting the price difference, I can use this scenario;

With the extra 200kg's of liquid, and the 400kg of equipment for our camper trailer (Yes I was very (Borderline) close to GVM), fuel economy (FE) with WI was 14.5L/100km[FE] with acceptable block temps and EGT's, (I was in a hurry). Without WI (Coober Pedy to Pt Augusta) fuel consumption was just under17L/100km.

With WI
Therefore I did 2200 @ 14.5FE.
14.5FE equates to $23/100km (1.63/L)
2200km @ $23/100km equals a total cost of $506 (plus $60 for meth)

Without WI
600 @ 17FE
17FE equates to $28/100km (1.63/L)
600km @ $28/100km equals a total cost of $166

Therefore cost per 100km-
With WI = $25.7
Without WI = $27.6

So noting I just did 11,500km's in our 4 week trip, I potentially could have saved $218.

Sadly my consumption rate is unsustainable. My intake manifold and intercooler is clean though!!

Cheers, Davo.

[Dougal]

What do you mean by calculating the energy content of the methanol?

Methanol is a fuel which is offsetting some of your diesel usage.

[Roverlord off road spares]

Atomising the water..... just drip feed it onto a Hiclone, the swirling action of the hiclone will do the work.......
PS. this was intended as a sarcastic remark, often people read things on AULRO and take it as a positive fact.;)

[justinc]

I would not inject ANYTHING except gasses pre turbo on the compressor side. The blades spinning at 100,000+rpm will be damaged by droplets (even misting droplets) of fluid just as if you had been feeding sand into it:o


(This wasn't in response to the Hiclone comment Mario because I realised you are 'avin a larf, :) , just to an earlier post about preturbo nozzle placement :))

JC

[two up]

I have injected well over a thousand litres of water/meth through my turbo at 2gph over the past 18 months, its still as good as the day it was fitted, just make sure you use top quality nozzles, high injection pressure and have a check valve/solenoid as close to the nozzle as you can. The benefits far outweigh the negatives if done properly.

[kreecha]

I have injected well over a thousand litres of water/meth through my turbo at 2gph over the past 18 months, its still as good as the day it was fitted, just make sure you use top quality nozzles, high injection pressure and have a check valve/solenoid as close to the nozzle as you can. The benefits far outweigh the negatives if done properly.


Hi two up,
I see you say you have injected through your turbo,
When I do this the effects are adverse, what have you found your results to be? And how did you measure the results? When I inject into the turbo my EGT's increase.

Cheers, Adam.

[justinc]

I have injected well over a thousand litres of water/meth through my turbo at 2gph over the past 18 months, its still as good as the day it was fitted, just make sure you use top quality nozzles, high injection pressure and have a check valve/solenoid as close to the nozzle as you can. The benefits far outweigh the negatives if done properly.

Mmm, I stand corrected. It goes against everything I 'know' about high speed objects (Turbocharger compressor blades) hitting a 'solid' as water is deemed to be in a whole 'droplet' form, but I guess water / metho and proper misting nozzles and not just water droplets are a goer then:).

JC

[two up]

Hi two up,
I see you say you have injected through your turbo,
When I do this the effects are adverse, what have you found your results to be? And how did you measure the results? When I inject into the turbo my EGT's increase.

Cheers, Adam.

I am injecting pre turbo and pre inlet manifold, ar a ratio of 50:50 wm. The egts stay noticeably lower, in the vicinity of 100 deg Celsius, this is measured post turbo. One of the largest benefits is that you can control when it starts to inject so you are only injecting when you need it. I would suggest if your egts are going up you NEED to reduce your ratio of meth to 30:70. The increase in power is quite significant.

[two up]

Mmm, I stand corrected. It goes against everything I 'know' about high speed objects (Turbocharger compressor blades) hitting a 'solid' as water is deemed to be in a whole 'droplet' form, but I guess water / metho and proper misting nozzles and not just water droplets are a goer then:).

JC

You are correct, if the droplets are not small enough or you do not control the shut off (allow the injector to dribble) properly you can cause damage to the blades. Done correctly you can use it to control egt whilst adding power, it will also make the turbo more efficient if injecting pre turbo.

[Dougal]

I am injecting pre turbo and pre inlet manifold, ar a ratio of 50:50 wm. The egts stay noticeably lower, in the vicinity of 100 deg Celsius, this is measured post turbo. One of the largest benefits is that you can control when it starts to inject so you are only injecting when you need it. I would suggest if your egts are going up you NEED to reduce your ratio of meth to 30:70. The increase in power is quite significant.

What is wrong with your tune that you need water injection to control EGT? Do you not have enough boost? Why are you measuring EGT post turbo?

Of course water/meth gives you more power. Methanol is fuel. Diesels also hate fuel being injected into the cylinders before compression.

[two up]

What is wrong with your tune that you need water injection to control EGT? Do you not have enough boost? Why are you measuring EGT post turbo?

Of course water/meth gives you more power. Methanol is fuel. Diesels also hate fuel being injected into the cylinders before compression.

I am not using it to control the egt, but that is surely a benefit, I am using it to add fuel as my fuel pump is maxed out and I am at a power level I am now happy with, plus my turbo was near its limit, but a new billet wheel and a little machining will fix that problem. I have been measuring post turbo and using the 200 rule because it was easier to do at the time, but when the turbo comes off I will be switching over to pre turbo.

What is your reasoning for saying diesels hate having fuel injected before compression.

There is a couple of additional reasons I did the wm injection. It cleans the engines internals continuously, (reducing carbon build up significantly) lowers engines operating temperatures when pushed hard.

[Dougal]

What is your reasoning for saying diesels hate having fuel injected before compression.

Because diesel combustion pressures and temperatures are high enough to detonate all liquid and almost all gaseous fuels.
The only way to prevent detonation is to only inject fuel when it's needed (which is how diesels normally work).
Any fuel introduced through the intake can detonate. Increasing engine stress far out of proportion with any power gains.

The only thing stopping your methanol detonating is the water in the mix. If you run too much methanol and not enough water, you're in trouble.

[two up]

Because diesel combustion pressures and temperatures are high enough to detonate all liquid and almost all gaseous fuels.
The only way to prevent detonation is to only inject fuel when it's needed (which is how diesels normally work).
Any fuel introduced through the intake can detonate. Increasing engine stress far out of proportion with any power gains.

The only thing stopping your methanol detonating is the water in the mix. If you run too much methanol and not enough water, you're in trouble.

All the research I have done, and after having spoken to a mechanical engineer who has been using and installing wm in 4wd and large marine diesels for over 20 years, shows that this is only possible once you pass about 75% methanol to water. He said you have a greater chance of quenching the flame front if you use too much water meth at 50:50 .

[two up]

Done PROPERLY it works well.

[Dougal]

All the research I have done, and after having spoken to a mechanical engineer who has been using and installing wm in 4wd and large marine diesels for over 20 years, shows that this is only possible once you pass about 75% methanol to water. He said you have a greater chance of quenching the flame front if you use too much water meth at 50:50 .

I am a mechanical engineer, that's why I won't use anything like that.
Even if you don't get pre-ignition. You get a much faster combustion which gives the same problems as over-advanced injection timing.
It gives a spike in cylinder pressure which produces far more stress on the engine components (head, pistons, con-rods, crank, crank bearings) than the same power and torque levels on diesel does.

Which ultimately means you can blow head gaskets and crack heads at lower power levels.

Which is why I always ask why people are running methanol in diesels.
Some are running it as a tuning crutch. What they really need is more air through higher boost or better intercooling.
Some run it because they think it makes the engine run cooler. But trading off cooler EGT (which can be managed better with boost) for more engine stress is not good.
Some, like yourself, are running it because they are out of fuel. But as a performance enhancer it has several drawbacks.
- If a nozzle has a bad day it can erode the turbo or even hydraulic the engine.
- You're carrying around a lot of weight in the name of performance. 250cc/min is a low figure. An hour on the juice and you've gone through 15 litres.

But ultimately. Are you producing power figures higher than acheivable on diesel alone?

[two up]

Dougal my system is controlled by a progressive controller and solenoid's, I am only injecting in high demand situations. For injection to start I need to be making 12lb of boost, and it reaches full injection flow at 20lb. Generally the only time this occurs is on steep hills. I carry 28 litres of fluid, driven sensibly this gives me a range of about 1000kms. On flat roads I could drive for hours without using a drop but I do take your other point,
If a nozzle clogs up yes I could damage a turbo, but as my system is controlled by pressure if this occurs the solenoid's will automatically cut flow to the nozzles.


From my current setup, yes I am producing more power than I could on diesel alone. To upgrade the fuel pump I am looking at a minimum of $2800 ,new turbo $1500 fitting/ dyno tuning $6-700
That will buy me enough methanol to keep me going the next 10-15 yrs.

[Dougal]

From my current setup, yes I am producing more power than I could on diesel alone.

How much?

I'm pretty sure the roads around here would eat 28 litres of water/meth in about 500km max. I run 8-9psi boost at a flat 100km/h cruise.

[two up]

Not really sure but seat of the pants I would say 15-20 hp would be conservative. Flat cruise for my rig is 5-7 psi @ 100 km on the GPS. I just got back from a weekend in quite hilly country keeping up with a mate's v8 cruiser I used 17l in 470 km. Drive to the speed limit general usage is about 25 lt per 1000 ks. One of the benefits with the variable controller is I can set the start and full injection volumes so I can tune the system how I want it, or turn the system off, inject with 1 nozzle or with both. Limit the total quantity or have it come in hard. With the turbo mods I will be deleting pre turbo and just injecting pre inlet manifold. The only reason I am currently injecting pre turbo is to alter the compressor map.

[Blknight.aus]

Dougal my system is controlled by a progressive controller and solenoid's, I am only injecting in high demand situations. For injection to start I need to be making 12lb of boost, and it reaches full injection flow at 20lb. Generally the only time this occurs is on steep hills. I carry 28 litres of fluid, driven sensibly this gives me a range of about 1000kms. On flat roads I could drive for hours without using a drop but I do take your other point,
If a nozzle clogs up yes I could damage a turbo, but as my system is controlled by pressure if this occurs the solenoid's will automatically cut flow to the nozzles.


From my current setup, yes I am producing more power than I could on diesel alone. To upgrade the fuel pump I am looking at a minimum of $2800 ,new turbo $1500 fitting/ dyno tuning $6-700
That will buy me enough methanol to keep me going the next 10-15 yrs.

urmmm

whats your maximum boost?

[two up]

16lb without wm injection and about 19.5lb with wm.

[Blknight.aus]

have you done anything to change the wastegate actuation or played with the compensator/fuel settings on the pump yet?

(Im running the assumption you've got a tdi(x)00)

[Tombie]

Two up.. What vehicle is this on? And what engine?

[isuzurover]

Maybe this one?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/148122-tdi-200-130-a.html

[two up]

Its the one mentioned at the beginning of the /\ post. I am using it as a test bed in preparation for the move to the 130 ( it is a TDi 300 ). From all the reading I have done and the advice I have got from my engineer friend the results I am getting should be easily replicated on the 130 but I will be using smaller nozzles and a larger tank for much greater range. The current vehicle has done close to 80k now without a single hiccup. I am hoping for around 100kw with the new vehicle to allow me to carry the weight and maintain a decent cruise speed on the highway.

[Tombie]

Is the 4.2 inter cooled?

What type?

Guys here (2) have GU 4.2s making some serious power using std pump turned up nicely, big Intercoolers and 3" exhausts.

These things are making serious power on factory turbos!

The 3rd one - just out of town runs a custom turbo and its a serious machine!

A Defender can make nice power with a good exhaust, big cooler and a safe wind up of the fuelling. And controlled safe EGTs.

Matched boost and fuel keeps EGT under control.

Adding water is just a hassle not worth the bother..

[two up]

Is the 4.2 inter cooled?

What type?

Guys here (2) have GU 4.2s making some serious power using std pump turned up nicely, big Intercoolers and 3" exhausts.

These things are making serious power on factory turbos!

The 3rd one - just out of town runs a custom turbo and its a serious machine!

A Defender can make nice power with a good exhaust, big cooler and a safe wind up of the fuelling. And controlled safe EGTs.

Matched boost and fuel keeps EGT under control.

Adding water is just a hassle not worth the bother..

Gu patrols have a 11mm fuel pump and with big ic and exhausts set up properly will make 130-140 Kw, but not with the ht18 turbo, it is a piece of rubbish, most go custom td 05 16g or 18g turbos. My gq in na form made about 50 rwkw with a 10 mm pump, and with the gt2860 big ic and exhaust will make about 100 Kw. Some of the more extreme td42t with big fuel pumps are making 220+ Kw. I am using the wm to add a bit more power for highway travel. In the bush I rarely see more than about 10 psi. I believe it has proven itself to be a worthwhile addition and has many benefits when used properly.

[Dougal]

Its the one mentioned at the beginning of the /\ post. I am using it as a test bed in preparation for the move to the 130 ( it is a TDi 300 ). From all the reading I have done and the advice I have got from my engineer friend the results I am getting should be easily replicated on the 130 but I will be using smaller nozzles and a larger tank for much greater range. The current vehicle has done close to 80k now without a single hiccup. I am hoping for around 100kw with the new vehicle to allow me to carry the weight and maintain a decent cruise speed on the highway.

What is the fuelling limit (cc/1000 shots) for a 200/300tdi pump?

If you can't reach 100kw without meth, there's something badly wrong.

[fonfe]

Interesting read!
First time I've ever come across people using water/meth in diesels!
Done lots in the uk still for performance cars but that only so you can run faster ignition timing at WOT and or run a slightly higher compression on a boosted petrol engine.
Find it quite bizarre people are fitting it to their diesel 4x4s? Surely there's a lot more gain to be had with simply a bigger intercooler or if space is an issue an intercooler spray system? Just I can't see how a water/meth setup can benefit a diesel enough to warrant the cost? + is the gain decent enough to offset the running negatives in terms of power taken and power given for the setup?

[Blknight.aus]

it helps cool the immediate combustion temps which helps drop the EGT's

IT doesnt really make you any more power, it lets you make more power but it doesnt cost much power to run it if you plumb it up right, at a guess you could probably run the whole system off of a single 10A fuse.

[Dougal]

Interesting read!
First time I've ever come across people using water/meth in diesels!
Done lots in the uk still for performance cars but that only so you can run faster ignition timing at WOT and or run a slightly higher compression on a boosted petrol engine.
Find it quite bizarre people are fitting it to their diesel 4x4s? Surely there's a lot more gain to be had with simply a bigger intercooler or if space is an issue an intercooler spray system? Just I can't see how a water/meth setup can benefit a diesel enough to warrant the cost? + is the gain decent enough to offset the running negatives in terms of power taken and power given for the setup?

It's just a high maintenance way to add fuel.
Methanol is fuel, but due to the high compression of diesel engines, you need water to prevent detonation.

I don't see the point myself. It's just another tank to fill, another system to go wrong and it can't add power beyond diesel and boost anyway.

[goingbush]

It's just a high maintenance way to add fuel.
Methanol is fuel, but due to the high compression of diesel engines, you need water to prevent detonation.

I don't see the point myself. It's just another tank to fill, another system to go wrong and it can't add power beyond diesel and boost anyway.

Not Quite Right,
Methanol contains oxygen for improved fuel combustion.

In a petrol engine the air/fuel ratio is 16:1
in a Methanol engine the air/fuel ratio is 4:1

to me that illustrates how much oxygen is in Methanol


Water injection will also works pretty good without any methanol in my opinion.

[Dougal]

Not Quite Right,
Methanol contains oxygen for improved fuel combustion.

In a petrol engine the air/fuel ratio is 16:1
in a Methanol engine the air/fuel ratio is 4:1

to me that illustrates how much oxygen is in Methanol


Water injection will also works pretty good without any methanol in my opinion.

Nope.

Diesels run lots of excess air. Stoich for a diesel is 14.5:1, production engines run ~20:1 (almost 50% excess air) minimum. At lower loads it can be 30:1, 40:1, at idle it can be 80:1.
Any oxygen from methanol is pointless in a diesel engine. They always run lean and need excess air for cooling (i.e stop pistons melting).

[brettphillips43]

G'day guys. If you guys are really interested, check out VW's new diesel/water injection system. 300 MILES per gallon. (4 litres). Brilliant piece of kit...

[Mick_Marsh]

G'day guys. If you guys are really interested, check out VW's new diesel/water injection system. 300 MILES per gallon. (4 litres). Brilliant piece of kit...
You got a link?

[isuzurover]

You got a link?

Volkswagen 1-litre car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car)

It does not run water injection.

It seems school/uni holidays have started?