Towing my caravan with my D2 is very ordinary

[Sharkee]

I have the same problem as Neavsie has. To avoid highjacking his thread I thought I would start my own. Now I read on his thread about correct weight distribution throughout the trailer (my case its a caravan).
I have a 22ft van that tows very ordinary behind my D2. I don't have ace. It sways terribly. As I have sls I cant use a wdh hitch. I towed this van behind my previous 80 series and without wdh it was ordinary but not as bad as the disco. With the wdh connected on the cruiser it was'nt great but was much better. I am considering putting spring conversion on the back of the D2 so I can use the HR setup.
The van is packed well (been vanning over 20 years) but when I bought the van and originally picked it up with the cruiser it towed home very ordinary, swaying badly and it was empty:(. I dont know the ball or overall weight of it but I am dumbfounded as to what I should do!. I know people say sls is the bees knees for towing but I am not finding this on this van.
Would fitting spring conversion and using HR set up fix this? I cant realy move the axles as thats a huge job on this van.
Any ideas as to what I should do please?
I'm having trouble loading the other pics but will try again later

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1406.jpg

[Sharkee]

ope this works
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1404.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1087.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1088.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1087.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1405.jpg

[IanP]

The van and disco seem to be sitting well.

You may have tried these but I have always found sway is caused by bad weight distribution in the van, not having the correct amount of tow-ball weight (about 10-12%) of the total van weight or uneven tyre pressures in the van.

my van is not as large as yours but it sits rock steady behind the disco even at 110 (although I normally cruise at 90-95).

Cheers
Ian

[Disco EMU]

I reckon the first thing to do would be to work out your tow ball weight and go from there.

[justinc]

as said first job is check your ball weight. I would expect around 150 to 180 kg loaded with that size van and those axle placements. the d2 is rated to 250kg ball weight, so no probs there. my feeling is you possibly have not enough weight on the hitch...?

jc

[Naviguesser]

While I do not tow a caravan with my SLS equipped D2 (yet), it tows my race car on a tandem trailer with very well. The SLS sits as steady as a rock.
I agree with the others, a bit more weight on the tow ball may help.

[robbotd5]

Hey Sharkee.
You seem to have taken all the usual precautions to prevent the dreaded sway. Like has been suggested, check your ball weight. I have seen a Hayman Reece product that looks like an axle stand, with a weight scale on the side in kilograms. Weighbridge is another option. I have also seen a device that screws onto the adjusting screw on the trailer coupling that shows the BW. What are your van's weighs? It does not appear to have a front boot so excessive ball weight is most likely not the problem rather the opposite I think. Our van, a 23ft Retreat Daydream, weighs in @ 2381 kg's GTM. My D2a has coils and polyairs and I use a WDH. With 20psi in the bags and the bars pulled up with 5 links on the chain, it sits nice and level. I dont have any trouble with sway unless it is caused bt wind. You could also check your towball height in relation to the van coupling when the van is detatched and level. Hope this helps.
Regards
Robbo

[slug_burner]

Try this if you don't have access to a weighbridge. Most bathroom scales max out at 100-120 kg, this will allow you to weigh things greater than the scales max value. If you place your load half way between the scales and brick the weight will be twice what you read on the scales. Other ratios as per the formula in the graphic.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1377.jpg

It will only give you the weight on the jockey wheel. If the jockey wheel is a long way back from the tow ball a few measurements from the center of the axle group of the caravan to the towball and to the jockey wheel and we should be able to work out the ratios. It should be close enough for government work just with the jockey wheel weight.

[Sharkee]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and advice its much appreciated.I never thought that it could be too light on the ball. Just a question if its light I should be able to lift or near lift the drawbar up should'nt I ? I went out and tried lifting it and its way too heavy for me to even look,like budging it and I'm not a small bloke. Slug burner thanks for the diagram, sounds silly I know but I dont have access to any scales. I do have access to a weighbridge though but how can I weigh just the ball weight only on a bridge? I'm thinking of taking it there tomorrow to weigh it.
One thing I was wondering that might contribute to my problem a little too is, the coupling on the van sits very slightly uphill I feel. So van is not dead level, its not a lot but could this be part of the problem too?.
The van is very low and not a great deal of clearance so I was thinking of underslinging the axles to bring it up clearance wise as even changing a wheel is hard cause if jacked by suspension you cant get the wheel out from under the wheelarch and by doing this that would also give me a downward angle on the coupling which I can rectify with the rear spring conversion to compensate the rear of the disco and level it up with the hayman reece level rides. :( My annexe walls may not reach the ground but I need to make the whole thing more user friendly.
Thanks again
Steve

[flyreels]

Looking at your pictures your disco it sitting too high for your van, you need to use a drop towbar tongue to lower the van and get some weight off the back wheel of the tandem set up on the van. I have come across this many times. The other thing is to check that the van wheels are in line with each other and not running off, measure the distance from the rear corner of the van chassis to the back of each wheel to make sure that the rear wheels are square and then do the same to the front (make sure the van is square though). Then run a straight edge along the tyres to make sure they are parallel to each other.
Cheers Peter

[oldyella 76]

Same as the last one ,you can use my bridge if you like not far from here.
Lindsay.

[Sharkee]

Thanks Peter never thought of out of alighnment I will also do that. Thanks Lindsay if I can work it timewise any chance of tomorrow morning?
I will pm you my number
Thanks
Steve

[Neavesie]

Not sure what brakes you have, probably electric but I have found that my cable brakes may also be contributing to my swaying, the cables dont need to move much to make my calipers activate. I think I have really weak springs on the calipers and the cable swaying activates the brakes on one side like a tapping motion. Ill be fixing this up for sure.

[slug_burner]

Steve,

Lindsay will probably sought you out. If you can measure each axle group do it that way or if only what sits on the bridge that will work too. You need to put the van on your disco and just put the disco on the bridge with the van attached but off the bridge, the disco and van on the bridge, the disco by itself and the van by itself. You could get away with at least one less measurement but you will make it easy this way. A few subtractions etc and you will have the weights.

An adjustable height towbar tongue will sort out your height issues, there are a couple of different designs. I checked ebay and there is one for $137ish posted, they vary in design, some use bolt holes, other use 50mm SHS with pins others use a corrugated design where you select the corrugations you want to match up I think they also use a pin. The local exhaust/towbar place will most likely have a catalogue from which to choose.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1353.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1354.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1355.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1356.jpg

Plenty of designs, just pick one that is not going to get snagged too easily due to it hanging down too far.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

It wont be the car,,
(cant see pics)
as said, measure the trailer axles, are the bushes in good condition? , bearings tight? are all the tyres the same? in good nick? less tha 5-7 years old? the same pressure?

mine sits ever so slightly nose up too,, but doesnt seem to bother it,,

[Sharkee]

Sorry Pedro I was thinking my problem started out to be the D2 which is why I put it there, sorry for being in the wrong section.
Neavesie thanks mine has electric drum brakes on the front axle which I think are working as they should, I do understand what you mean if one is slightly grabbing.
Slug_Burner thanks for the pics. I am thinking maybe I will have to change to something like that. I do have the adjustable heavy duty HR one but I dont know if it will go much lower than the LR one, I'll have to try it on.
Thanks Pedro as far as I know the undercarriege components are ok and I did have different sized tyres on it untill couple of weeks back when I blew the front tyre on the left side. Had 175 14 l/t's on the left side (was'nt my doing) which were virtually new when I bought it in Jan this year, all the tyres were basically new. I have, since the tyre blew replaced both 175's with 185 bridgestone l/t's. I know that 175's are not the right size but gee I never thought they would blow!. I have a similar but a bit older setup to the pic below and would like to use all the bits but the tongue part I might see if its lower than the standard one.

I went to see Lindsay today and again I cant thank him enough for his help and the use of his weighbridge it was invaluable.
The findings
Van only weight = 1950kg
Disco only weight = 2360kg
Disco on bridge connected to van with van off the bridge = 2520kg
Ball weight = 160kg

Other weights
Disco front wheels only on the bridge
With van attached = 990kg
Without van attached = 1070kg
So van weight takes 80kg off the steer tyres when attached.

Did a little test I put just the rear axle only on bridge and pumped the air bags up into offroad setting which I think is around 2' higher and
810kg on the rear axle normal
920kg on the rear axle when airbags pumped up.

160kg ball weight is this about right?
Any thoughts on these weights appreciated

Thanks
Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

nothing wrong with 160kg,,
but blowing a tyre makes me worry about the setup, maybe the tyre just failed,, maybe.
mine is 1700kg,, so will measure rear car axle to front van axle tonight,,

I have no idea what the correct/minimum distance should be though,,:p

I'd be checking tyres for roundness, jacking the van up and shaking the wheels/axles.

truck wheel-alignment places will do vans;)

[Sharkee]

I thought 160kg was'nt too bad but if supposed to be 10% of van weight should it be around 190kg?. The tyre blowing astounded me as they would be lucky to have done a few hundred k's. I will be checking the bearings over the next couple of weeks.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

ball weight is a can of worms,,

lots of urban myth and very little engineering.

160 is more than enough,
Id tell you how much I run but this thread is running along quite peacefully!:p

[Sharkee]

ball weight is a can of worms,,

lots of urban myth and very little engineering.

160 is more than enough,
Id tell you how much I run but this thread is running along quite peacefully!:p

Ok :lol2: I won't go into ball weights then. I am a bit surprised as I thought it would have been more than 160kg as all the annexe bits (2 annexes) are up the front along with some other minor stuff ropes, pegs, wood chocks for legs etc so I thought it would be more than that

Cheers mate
Steve

[weeds]

ball weight is a can of worms,,

lots of urban myth and very little engineering.

160 is more than enough,
Id tell you how much I run but this thread is running along quite peacefully!:p

so long as your brakes are working..........all will be good

[Sharkee]

Thanks Kelvin yep they work :)

[slug_burner]

I'd definitely give that adjustable tongue a go. Dropping the towball should help. The towball weight is in the ball park some would say a bit light and as you have shown, dropping the ball height will also drop some of the ball weight. You may need to go through the process again. I'd be loading the caravan with weight forward. Do you have a water tank? Will that help with weight distribution?

[Sharkee]

Thanks Slug Burner, I have a HR drop down hitch which I need to measure to see if its lower than LR one. I have a water tank on the van and yeah I think I'll fill it to see if it makes a difference. It should put a bit more on the ball as its well forward of the axles. I will give that a try when I get a chance.
Thanks Steve

[Pedro_The_Swift]

FWIW from the hitch its 4.3m to the centre of the axles,,
IMHO more weight will only mask the problem,,

[slug_burner]

FWIW from the hitch its 4.3m to the centre of the axles,,
IMHO more weight will only mask the problem,,

So what is the problem? Better still what is the solution to the problem if putting more weight on the ball is only masking it?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

the problem?
caravan manufacturers that (still) don't care?
(my money's on this;))
old age?
lack of maintenance?

If we take the D2 as not responsible:angel: --
it must be the trailer yes?

and if my 20 year old 1.7T dual axle tows without drama,
with an 80kg ball weight
why doesn't Sharkee's if we use your "just keep adding more" theory?

with a history of blowing tyres its not ball weight thats the problem,,,

somethings out of alignment,,,, or the van has some weird aero stuff happening,, but that wont blow tyres,,

[Sharkee]

I'm going to, if I get time this weekend fill the water tank up and change the hitch to see if it makes a difference.

[Sharkee]

Oh and get the measuring tape and straight edge out as well.

[slug_burner]

Not sure how ball weight and blowing tyres come into it. I do agree that weight distribution is not the only variable to trailer stability, however given that Sharkee is going to try the other suggestions perhaps I was premature to address the weight distribution before he provided feedback on the outcome.

Hope it gets sorted and you can enjoy your van and D2.

[Sharkee]

Thanks Slug Burner I'll let you's know how I go on the weekend hopefully. Fingers crossed :)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Sorry S_B, maybe my FU,
and helpfull suggestions are never premature,,:D

[Nanna Truck]

Sharkee
Hope you solve the towing issues, here are some suggestions I have applied over 40 years.
1st rule of towing anything successfully is ball weight (yours seems to be in the ball park- little light)
2nd rule. measurement between centre of the tow coupling and the wheels MUST be equal or it will tow like a "three legged dog" and give you tyre trouble as well.
3rd rule. Ensure you do not take to much weight off the tow vehicle steering wheels, it will almost guarantee sway.
Unable to see in your pics if the Tandem Set Up has "Rocker Springs", if so check that is not one that is "Walking" as some of them do and therefore almost impossible to keep in a straight line.
Best Regards and hope you solve the problem
Harry

[Sharkee]

Sharkee
Hope you solve the towing issues, here are some suggestions I have applied over 40 years.
1st rule of towing anything successfully is ball weight (yours seems to be in the ball park- little light)
2nd rule. measurement between centre of the tow coupling and the wheels MUST be equal or it will tow like a "three legged dog" and give you tyre trouble as well.
3rd rule. Ensure you do not take to much weight off the tow vehicle steering wheels, it will almost guarantee sway.
Unable to see in your pics if the Tandem Set Up has "Rocker Springs", if so check that is not one that is "Walking" as some of them do and therefore almost impossible to keep in a straight line.
Best Regards and hope you solve the problem
Harry
Thanks Harry, I'm hoping that filling the water tank might put a little more on the ball but in saying that it probably will take a little more of the steering something I feel that can only be fixed using level rides/WDH. I will measure it over the weekend to see if axles are right. Yes it does have rocker springs and I will have a look at them also.
Thanks
Steve

[Sharkee]

Did'nt get the testing done was too busy but hopefully this weekend

[heichen]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and advice its much appreciated.I never thought that it could be too light on the ball. Just a question if its light I should be able to lift or near lift the drawbar up should'nt I ? I went out and tried lifting it and its way too heavy for me to even look,like budging it and I'm not a small bloke. Slug burner thanks for the diagram, sounds silly I know but I dont have access to any scales. I do have access to a weighbridge though but how can I weigh just the ball weight only on a bridge? I'm thinking of taking it there tomorrow to weigh it.
One thing I was wondering that might contribute to my problem a little too is, the coupling on the van sits very slightly uphill I feel. So van is not dead level, its not a lot but could this be part of the problem too?.
The van is very low and not a great deal of clearance so I was thinking of underslinging the axles to bring it up clearance wise as even changing a wheel is hard cause if jacked by suspension you cant get the wheel out from under the wheelarch and by doing this that would also give me a downward angle on the coupling which I can rectify with the rear spring conversion to compensate the rear of the disco and level it up with the hayman reece level rides. :( My annexe walls may not reach the ground but I need to make the whole thing more user friendly.
Thanks again
Steve
put the car on the weighbridge,van off the bridge. Take weight.Unhitch van, support on jockeywheel.Take weight. Difference is the ballweight.

[Sharkee]

Thanks heichen I've done that already.
Van only weight = 1950kg
Disco only weight = 2360kg
Disco on bridge connected to van with van off the bridge = 2520kg
Ball weight = 160kg

Other weights
Disco front wheels only on the bridge
With van attached = 990kg
Without van attached = 1070kg
So van weight takes 80kg off the steer tyres when attached.

Bit of an update I removed the SLS airbags from my vehicle and put springs in. I had lift springs to go in it but could'nt get them in were too long and they needed the brake lines disconected to fit and I am not keen on playing with them so I fitted standard height springs with polyairs. Unfortunately the rear is higher than it was and the van is on more of an uphill angle. I hooked up my HR WDH setup took the van for a run today and was only slightly better :(.I then played with tyre pressures a bit, the hitch height, filled the water tank in the van and went up another link or 2 on the chains and is heaps better but still not happy with it. I will do the suspension checks/measurements on the van next. I feel it definately tows better with the springs/polyairs. Still more testing to do.;)
Thanks to all that have replied:)

Steve

[TerryO]

Good luck with it Sharkee, I tried nearly everything to get my D2a to tow safely both our van and various trailers we use with work to no avail. Fitted new Bilstein shocks, changed hitch heights, checked the ball weight which was just over 10% even repacked the van and tried different ball weights etc. No matter what I did it towed like a dog, in the end I bought a D3 and the world changed overnight for the better.

On the weekend we drove down the coast and caught up to a line of vehicles behind a single axle flash new off road caravan that was wobbling and swaying all over the road at just 80 kph, it didn't surprise us when we overtook it that it was being towed by a D2.

Sure plenty of people tow with D2's and have no issues, but obviously others like us did and in the end we couldn't be bothered with the on going hassle to try and get to the bottom of the issues. Plus with a D3 you can keep up with the traffic safely and not be a slow moving road block.

A bloke that used to be a member on here used to tow a 2.7 ton 21' off road van with his D2, to get it to tow well he to went down the path of coil springs with internal airbags and a WDH. He reckoned in the end it was pretty good but from memory it took him some time to get it sorted.

cheers,
Terry

[robbotd5]

Gee I don't know, it maybe that I have not towed my van with anything else but I feel my D2a does a preaty good job concidering it's got 2300kg and 23ft of van hanging off the back of it. We just did a 4500km tour of Victoria and experienced all road conditions, stiff headwinds and some gnarly hills. I was able at most times to sit on 90-95km/h and did not hold up traffic. All the while she returned 13.5 l/100km. Sure, on the steep hills, I got back to second gear (mainly to keep the lid on the EGT's) but she just kept on plugging forward. All the trucks that passed me on the flat were despatched with on the hills. I did get some trailer sway but it was always caused by either cross winds or passing semi's. So for now I'm a preaty happy camper.
Regards
Robbo.

[Sharkee]

Thanks Terry, I'm sort of in the same boat. I measured up my axels for position and line and they're good and where they're supposed to be. The d2 is in getting some work done on the suspension as we speak (:( more money) so when I get it back, hopefully tomorrow night I will re access it as the height will be different again. At this point I'm looking at raising the height of the van as its way too low anyway but unfortunately my annexe walls for the roll out awning probably wont fit if I do this. Its very much a try it thing I reckon. Would love a d3 but but :lol2: to get that would have to sign the divorce papers :eek:. Thanks Robbo, Its funny you hear about so many stories like that about people saying they tow big loads like a dream, I'm envious and wish I was one of them. Although I'm nearly at the end of my tether with the whole thing , I am still hopefull of getting on top of it.


Thanks
Steve

[Sharkee]

I finally got around to doing my van springs. I did an undersling and its lifted it considerably and with the coils on the vehicle allowed me to level it totally. I came across some little probs that need attending to like worn spring shackle bushes which would have contibuted to the swaying. I have to say with the van lift its not quite right but a hell of a lot better, and although not one,looks like an offroad van now:D. It tows heaps better but just needs some tweeking so to speak.

[Sharkee]

Pics before undersling
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1087.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1088.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/687.jpg

Some pics of the van now
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1089.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1090.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1091.jpg

[slug_burner]

The last two look like it is after the mod! Looks high.

[Sharkee]

Yeah SB they are the after pics. It is higher than I antisapated but tows so much better behind the D2. It is perfectly level now and I wont have the issues I had changing a wheel on it now. It's obviously not an offroader but gives me heaps more clearance to get it more places. Before I did the undersling I turned it around in the paddock next to it in the 3rd pic which has a very minor step up onto it and the bum dragged on the road getting up there. Wont happen now:D. I took it for aound 10k run and seems a lot better so I'm thinking there was just too much more weight on the rear axle compared to the front one. I will get a pic of it all set up on the disco when I can.


Steve

[slug_burner]

I am glad for you that the towing stability has improved, just sorry you had to do away with the airbags.

[Sharkee]

Thanks SB, I know they are good in a lot of cases and I will miss being able to lift it up at the push of a button. But to be honest much happier with whats in there now. I put the SLS gear on ebay yesterday, Compressor,airbags and the box it mounts in. There was someone who was interested on here but bugger I can't remember who it was and can't find the post it was in. If they read this "Sorry" :(

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I would like to think the improvements more to do with the fixed shackles than raising the van 4 inches or replacing the SLS

what was the real problem?
I doubt you'll ever know now Sharkee;)

all you have to do now is post some holiday snaps:p

[Sharkee]

Thanks Pedro, Yeah I may not ever know but at a guess I reckon too much of the weight was distributed on the rear axle instead of being more evenly spread but who knows!. Could have been a combination of all the things I've changed maybe?. Will definately get some happier snaps;):D

Cheers Steve

[rod7416]

Gee I don't know, it maybe that I have not towed my van with anything else but I feel my D2a does a preaty good job concidering it's got 2300kg and 23ft of van hanging off the back of it. We just did a 4500km tour of Victoria and experienced all road conditions, stiff headwinds and some gnarly hills. I was able at most times to sit on 90-95km/h and did not hold up traffic. All the while she returned 13.5 l/100km. Sure, on the steep hills, I got back to second gear (mainly to keep the lid on the EGT's) but she just kept on plugging forward. All the trucks that passed me on the flat were despatched with on the hills. I did get some trailer sway but it was always caused by either cross winds or passing semi's. So for now I'm a preaty happy camper.
Regards
Robbo.
Hi robbotd5 i think you might of answered one of my problem before i have 2002 td5 auto but have a problem when towing our van which ways only 1150 kgs it starts of ok but you have to slow stop for intersection i struggle to get to 80k,s again gearbox rebuilt at easter and replaced wastegate modulator it has a straight through exhaust apart from a small muffler at the back seems to make plenty of boost by the gauge have you or anyone got any ideas of what it could be.