Defender Rear Axles

[will993]

Hello all,

I just found out that both my rear axles are completely cactus. As I do a fair amount of towing and some 4WD'ing I want to upgrade. I was wondering what options are available for a Salisbury equipped defender? I have read a few threads recommending Maxi-Drive are there any other options I am missing?
Also I am after recommendations on where to buy these from.

Thanks in advance,
Will

[weeds]

i can vouch for Hi-Tuff axles (maxi drive), mine have been in for at least five years with no wear.

M R Automotive would mail them to you but i'm sure there would be somewhere in Sydney to pick them up.

[isuzutoo-eh]

I bought Hi Tough axles for my Sals via Graeme Cooper Automotive a few weeks ago.
They reduced the slop in the drive train slightly though the original Sals axles are visually in near perfect condition.
Other options are Roving Tracks but my front HD axles from him aren't so good. I think Ashcroft do some as well.

[strangy]

I have Ashcrofts from UK. Well made, fast delivery.Ashcroft Transmissions - Salisbury Late Halfshafts (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=252)
cheers

[110 Pete]

Hey Mate,

Ive got Maxi Drive(Now Hi tuff engineering) rear axles in mine,Virtually unbreakable apparently!!

I'd go either these or ashcroft.

Cheers

Pete

[Drover]

X2 for Ashcroft.

Excellent service and fast delivery to Aus.

Had there shafts, drive flanges and CV's for last 2 years. Best product available bar none.

Deal direct, split your order to keep it under $1000AUD's, save $$$$$

[slug_burner]

Here in Melbourne you can get Jack McNamara axles, I have their diff lock however I have the Maxi Drive now Hi Tuff axles.

[rijidij]

Will,
I have a set of Maxi Drive axles and flanges sitting in the shed. I don't think I'll be using these as the only Defender I have already has them fitted.
PM me if you want part numbers etc.

Cheers, Murray

[uninformed]

Barry from Hi-Tough Eng. is a stand up guy and his axles are easily on par with Ashcroft. IMO the material he uses is better. Any of his Oz retailers will be willing to help. If your not sure who that would be, give Barry a call.

Hi-Tough Engineering Pty Ltd - Engineers--General - Carrara, QLD - Yellow Pages® (http://www.yellowpages.com.au/qld/carrara/hi-tough-engineering-pty-ltd-13410932-listing.html)

[rick130]

[snip]

Best product available bar none.

[snip]


Very good, yes, but best bar none ?

Hy-Tuff by Hi-Tough for me too and it supports a local bloke :D

[uninformed]

Very good, yes, but best bar none ?

Hy-Tuff by Hi-Tough for me too and it supports a local bloke :D

Don't let a little thing like tech get in the way of emotional content... ;)

[harro]

Hi Tough, Ashcrofts or whatever you choose they will still flog out at the drive flange if you don't change to oil lubed hubs.
It is a relatively simple fix and if done from new I am sure the factory axles would last a hell of a lot longer than they do.

I run Hi tough/maxidrive rears with their flanges all round and with the oil lubed hubs I don't expect to ever have problems in that area.

IMO the dreaded driveline clunk found in most defenders starts from there and gradually flogs out everything else including the A frame ball joint.

Cheers,
Paul.

[LowRanger]

I bought Hi Tough axles for my Sals via Graeme Cooper Automotive a few weeks ago.
They reduced the slop in the drive train slightly though the original Sals axles are visually in near perfect condition.
Other options are Roving Tracks but my front HD axles from him aren't so good. I think Ashcroft do some as well.

I think I will dispute the fact that the shafts from Keith "aren't so good" I have given mine probably more of a hard time than most,and on 35's,and they have stood the test.Which is more than I can say about the Maxi axles that I had in the rear Salisbury.I think yours is just a problem of the axle fitting through the bush on an early 110 axle housing.Keith guarantees his axles against breakage up to 35" tyres.Unlike some of the other rubber axles made to be fitted with rubber tyres:eek: And I agree with harro,you do need to run the bearings in oil

[uninformed]

and Wayne, whats not to say your Sals isnt a little out of true???How many KM's on the old MD shafts, how many on Keiths front shafts? same wheeling?

;)

Is not the rear more likely to see higher loads than the front? Though the rear shafts are longer so should handle twist a little better....

When you say the Sals are the strongest (im guessing by dia) what front splines/dia are you running?

Are your fronts 4340 or 4340 300m (Im pretty sure keith offers both...)

BTW I think Keith makes good shafts, and he is a top, truely stand up guy.

Id love to know, of all the HD aftermarket brands, suffered failure due to poor set up or bent housings??????????

[steveG]

Has anyone actually broken a standard Defender rear axle? Not talking about stripping splines due to them fretting to the point where they fail, but a physical failure of a good condition axle.

Seems plenty have busted standard rover axles, but I haven't heard much about broken Salisbury ones...

Steve

[rick130]

Has anyone actually broken a standard Defender rear axle? Not talking about stripping splines due to them fretting to the point where they fail, but a physical failure of a good condition axle.

Seems plenty have busted standard rover axles, but I haven't heard much about broken Salisbury ones...

Steve

I've heard of a few.

Not seen one with my own little peekers mind, but have talked to dealers that have had to replace them, including an ex-NSW NPWS TD5 130 I looked at buying once.

[uninformed]

I cant actually name one, but I would bet my left nut many have been. Lets not look at the size of the big cast center section of the Sals, the 24 spline axles are not that much bigger than Rover types....

below is something I posted on Outerlimits4x4 many years ago:

From Maxi drive.

ROVER FRONT AXLE CHANGE POINTS & MAXI DRIVE DIFF APPLICATION

RANGE ROVER DISCOVERY AND DEFENDER WITH ABS:
All vehicles with ABS brakes have the CV joint with the small weak 32 inner axle spline. The CV joint also has 72 serations on its outside dia. for the electronic sensor to "read" wheel speed from. The heavy duty AEU2522 CV joint can be fitted with a 72 tooth ring which is shrunk onto the body of the CV. However this increases the dia. of the CV which then means the inside of the hard chrome swivel ball has to be machined to provide clearance. The top swivel pin also has to be raised 2mm. to clear the 72 tooth ring. ABS sensor is adjusted to just touch as per normal set-up.


SPLINE SIZES & TOOTH COUNTS

10 SPLINE: Used for axle shaft to diff side gear in ROVER Type diffs from the first L/R in 1948 to app 1992. Also used in L/R series 1 & 11 vehicles at drive flange and early R/R & Disco CV joints.
Square form (40 o included angle) Major dia 28.2 (1.11") Root dia 25.3 (.997") Zp ( polar section) .212
App torque capability for axle of 1500 Mpa UTS Hytuf 5635 Nm (4160 ft lbs)

24 SPLINE: Commonly referred to as "Salisbury" spline as it first came into rover use in the Salisbury diff fitted to series 111 long wheel base. Also used at drive flange on series 111 onwards. From app 1994 the Rover Type diff also uses this spline in the side gear although this gear is about .004" tighter than the Salisbury diff gear. The side gear spline in all Maxi-Drive 24 spline diffs is also the same as the Salisbury. (Why Rover decided to depart from industry standard and make the Rover diff tighter is anyone's guess)
Involute form, flat root side fit, 20/40 DP, 30 o PA,
Major dia 31.4 (1.24") Root dia 29.2 (1.15") Zp (polar section) .294
App torque capability for axle of 1500 Mpa UTS Hytuf 7835 Nm (5780 ft lbs)

23 SPLINE: Only used as the inner axle to CV connection on the three decent CV joints, namely R606665 R/R ; AEU1828 stage one 111 and AEU2522 early county
Involute form, flat root, side fit 20/40 DP, 30 o PA,
Major dia. 30.1 (1.18") Root dia 27.9 (1.10") Zp (polar section) .281
App torque capacity of axle of 1500 Mpa UTS Hytuf 7450 Nm (5500 ft lbs)

32 SPLINE: This is the hopelessly small inner axle to CV connection used on all vehicles since app 1988. Not strong enough for the torque that can be applied with a across axle diff lock. For this reason all front Maxi-Drive diff locks use the more durably 23 spline size and if required the stronger 23 spline CV joints are used in place of the weak 32 spline CV joint.

Vee form 45 o PA, Major dia. 26.3 (1.035") Root dia. 24.1 (.950")
Zp (polar section) .192
App. torque capacity of axle of 1500 Mpa UTS Hytuf 5095 Nm (3760 ft lbs)


this was copied from a page given to me by mal, there may be some small mistakes.

[rick130]

I posted this on the other thread


and the beauty of Hy-Tuf vs other high strength axle steels is its fatigue life, notch fatigue life and ductility ;)

Of course, as with any steel it comes down to how it's handled/machined and the heat treatment.and this chart makes it easy to see the differences.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=52040&stc=1&d=1349872885

Hy-Tuf has a lower yield strength but higher UTS than 4340, so my reading of that is that in theory (and hopefully practice) it'll start to twist earlier (and go further) than 4340 but break later, although prep and heat treatment play a huge part in this too.

4340M or 300M is better again, but at much higher $$.

FWIW lots of drag race axles in the US are made from Hy-Tuf but you can't really go wrong with either material or manufacturer which are a hell of a lot better than stock.

[isuzutoo-eh]

I think I will dispute the fact that the shafts from Keith "aren't so good" I have given mine probably more of a hard time than most,and on 35's,and they have stood the test.Which is more than I can say about the Maxi axles that I had in the rear Salisbury.I think yours is just a problem of the axle fitting through the bush on an early 110 axle housing.Keith guarantees his axles against breakage up to 35" tyres.Unlike some of the other rubber axles made to be fitted with rubber tyres:eek: And I agree with harro,you do need to run the bearings in oil

EDIT: This is regarding front axles so a little bit off topic, I have no experience with this company's rear axles. /EDIT

I didn't say all Keiths axles 'aren't so good' I said 'the axles I have from Keith aren't so good'.

It isn't the bush the dodgy axles won't fit through, its the swivel ball they don't fit. Some bloody genius idea it is to sell axles that are too fat to fit through the swivel.
'Guaranteed not to break' by making them bigger till they don't break isn't rocket science it's primitive thought, I'd rather have them fit their intended purpose than indestructible.

So my axles are stuck in place, the CVs can't be removed, if something else breaks (guarantee it won't be the axle...duh) such as the diff again, I can't remove said axle to limp home, just have to let it flail around wrecking everything else. TerryO could confirm they can't be withdrawn through the swivel too, that was after they were installed by a diff specialist, so can't even blame my ham-fisted mechanicing that time.

Keith palmed me off saying the wear won't affect the strength of the axles and the swivels are easily machined out without reducing strength, all I need is a big press to remove the axles. I don't have a big press, access to a big press, desire to smash some genuine AEU2522 CVs that I can't afford to replace to get said axles out the shallow way as the place with a big press I talked to suggested... (they refused to do the job anyway)

No doubt they are a great product to the vast majority, maybe I just have that rare set of tolerances that become an interference fit. It doesn't make me a happy customer. I took it up with Keith, got fobbed off. Really, a millimetre less diameter would have been adequate clearance and according to Keith himself (after showing pictures of how mine have worn at the swivel interference), a millimetre less diameter wouldn't affect the axle's redundant unbreakability.

I'm not the only one that finds that they aren't a 100% product though:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/136943-problem-fitting-rovertracks-axles-ideas-3.html#post1559029

I feel like I'm channeling Ron's luck with buying parts for my County.

[LowRanger]

and Wayne, whats not to say your Sals isnt a little out of true???How many KM's on the old MD shafts, how many on Keiths front shafts? same wheeling?

;)

Is not the rear more likely to see higher loads than the front? Though the rear shafts are longer so should handle twist a little better....

When you say the Sals are the strongest (im guessing by dia) what front splines/dia are you running?

Are your fronts 4340 or 4340 300m (Im pretty sure keith offers both...)

BTW I think Keith makes good shafts, and he is a top, truely stand up guy.

Id love to know, of all the HD aftermarket brands, suffered failure due to poor set up or bent housings??????????

Serg
You have me a little confused:confused:Why would you think that my rear Salisbury is out of true? Because I had twisted splines on a set of rear Maxi axles?These were replace a long time ago with a set of Hi Tuff X series axles from Hi Tough,and touch wood I haven't had any problems yet.If the housing was "out of true" I would have had problems by now,and they wouldn't have been twisted splines;)
And I haven't mentioned the salisbury being the strongest?????????

[LowRanger]

EDIT: This is regarding front axles so a little bit off topic, I have no experience with this company's rear axles. /EDIT

I didn't say all Keiths axles 'aren't so good' I said 'the axles I have from Keith aren't so good'.

It isn't the bush the dodgy axles won't fit through, its the swivel ball they don't fit. Some bloody genius idea it is to sell axles that are too fat to fit through the swivel.
'Guaranteed not to break' by making them bigger till they don't break isn't rocket science it's primitive thought, I'd rather have them fit their intended purpose than indestructible.

So my axles are stuck in place, the CVs can't be removed, if something else breaks (guarantee it won't be the axle...duh) such as the diff again, I can't remove said axle to limp home, just have to let it flail around wrecking everything else. TerryO could confirm they can't be withdrawn through the swivel too, that was after they were installed by a diff specialist, so can't even blame my ham-fisted mechanicing that time.

Keith palmed me off saying the wear won't affect the strength of the axles and the swivels are easily machined out without reducing strength, all I need is a big press to remove the axles. I don't have a big press, access to a big press, desire to smash some genuine AEU2522 CVs that I can't afford to replace to get said axles out the shallow way as the place with a big press I talked to suggested... (they refused to do the job anyway)

No doubt they are a great product to the vast majority, maybe I just have that rare set of tolerances that become an interference fit. It doesn't make me a happy customer. I took it up with Keith, got fobbed off. Really, a millimetre less diameter would have been adequate clearance and according to Keith himself (after showing pictures of how mine have worn at the swivel interference), a millimetre less diameter wouldn't affect the axle's redundant unbreakability.

I'm not the only one that finds that they aren't a 100% product though:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/136943-problem-fitting-rovertracks-axles-ideas-3.html#post1559029

I feel like I'm channeling Ron's luck with buying parts for my County.

Strange that the 2 vehicles that have had problems fitting the axles have been early 110's.The axles seem to fit Defenders without a problem.
So unless you bashed the shafts in when you replaced the front housing,the axles and CV's can be removed,as we had them out,when we pulled it all apart in my front yard??Also seeing how hard it was trying to fit axles to a bent front housing,I still think that a slightly bent housing may still be the root cause of a lot of the problems.The ISUZU tends to put a lot of weight on the front end.

[rick130]

[snip]

These were replace a long time ago with a set of Hi Tuff X series axles from Hi Tough,and touch wood I haven't had any problems yet.

[snip]


Interestingly Paula (Storey) suggested the X axles when I bought my first set nearly eleven years ago and the reasons why they should be better/last longer.

[uninformed]

Serg
You have me a little confused:confused:Why would you think that my rear Salisbury is out of true? Because I had twisted splines on a set of rear Maxi axles?These were replace a long time ago with a set of Hi Tuff X series axles from Hi Tough,and touch wood I haven't had any problems yet.If the housing was "out of true" I would have had problems by now,and they wouldn't have been twisted splines;)
And I haven't mentioned the salisbury being the strongest?????????

;) all good mate, I was more making fun of the finger pointing, with a little tech thrown in....There would be more out of true Sals running around than we possibly know. I was thinking there may have been a slight chance that your original MD axles had done twice the time and miles as your new Hi-tough, and therefore not quite an accurate comparrison. But it sounds as thats not the case.

Regarding the Sals=strongest comment, well with 78 different threads going, all covering the same rubbish, errrr I mean tech, I did get cross pollenated as it were

"I run Hi Tough shafts in the rear only.I have already twisted the splines on a set of the old Maxi drive shafts,and they are Salisbury shafts,so a lot stronger as standard."

was you statement in Chooks memebers ride thread. I made the leap from stronger to strongest. But if we look at it, and disregarding the odd 23 spline 101 axles, and maybe even the ENV axles.....I think the stock Sals rear axles maybe be LR strongest. This being, that in a coil sprung housing, the shafts are longest, therefore better for twist/shock load and being 24 spline, they are the biggest major/minor dia.

But then we could throw the old material argument in the pot, where I think I read somewhere that maybe Ashcroft or such proved that the old 10 splines were as strong or a touch stronger than some of the later 24 spline axles .....and only due to LR shifting materials....or it could have been a dodgy heat treated batch.

The variables are endless.

For some of us, OEM will be fine. For others not worth the risk. Rovering Tracks, Ashcroft and Hi-tough all make good shafts.

IMO Hy-tuf being the pick, and on par with 4340-300m. Both these being better than 4340.

For the ultimate shaft, maybe contact "Lara" and see if he is willing to sort some more of his 300 Maraging shafts made by the same people that do Williams F1 stuff. BUt you better have deep pockets....can someone say $10,000 for 4 shafts :eek:, Oh and while you are at it, get him to make some more cranks, rods and pistons for your own 2.7ltr Td5 :cool:

[rick130]

[snip]

For the ultimate shaft, maybe contact "Lara" and see if he is willing to sort some more of his 300 Maraging shafts made by the same people that do Williams F1 stuff. BUt you better have deep pockets....can someone say $10,000 for 4 shafts :eek:, Oh and while you are at it, get him to make some more cranks, rods and pistons for your own 2.7ltr Td5 :cool:

Funny you should mention that.

I only found that thread on Pirate at some ungodly hour last night and read it right through :eek:

[uninformed]

yes that was a little bit of a train wreck....typical Yanks, couldnt think outside their bubble :D

[LowRanger]

Serg
The point regarding the Salisbury being stronger,refers to the fact,than in real world applications,the Salisbury axles as fitted as standard,will put up with a lot more abuse than those fitted to normal rover rear end.So although the differences may only be small,there is obviously enough difference to be of added benefit.This is not just from my experience,as over the years,I have heard and seen hundreds of people make the same statement.
There will always be arguments over which is better,as people have their own different use for their vehicles,and others have an affinity towards manufacturers that may be local,others that require something that may last a very long time,but may not necessarily be the strongest,others that require the strongest at the expense of longevity.And then there are those that shop by price,and those that will only buy local.It is a big market and there are choices for everyone,it just makes me laugh when people come out and categorically declare something as "the best";)

[weeds]

what have you decided to go with Will.........

[uninformed]

Serg
The point regarding the Salisbury being stronger,refers to the fact,than in real world applications,the Salisbury axles as fitted as standard,will put up with a lot more abuse than those fitted to normal rover rear end.So although the differences may only be small,there is obviously enough difference to be of added benefit.This is not just from my experience,as over the years,I have heard and seen hundreds of people make the same statement.
.....................";)

It can be debated which housing is stronger in stock form. I have been told of plenty of bent/broken Sals as those fitted to pre defender 110's fitted with load levellers.....

what is pretty much a no brainer are the shafts...10spline 25.3mm minor dia Vs 24 spline 29.2 minor dia. Thats a 15.4% increase in dia and a 33% increase in cross sectional area....

I am no way saying I think a rover with 10 splines better than a sals (in stock forms)

What I have been trying to bring, and I feel you are to, is that there is so much more going on than what we have breifly glossed over.

Now I can NOT confirm the info regarding 10 spliners being as strong or stronger in a one off twist to break machine.....

[Red90]

Has anyone actually broken a standard Defender rear axle? Not talking about stripping splines due to them fretting to the point where they fail, but a physical failure of a good condition axle.
Yep...

Broken Salsbury Axle on 33s
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1031.jpg

Sals Axle
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1032.jpg

Disco 1 Rear Axle.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/10/1033.jpg

As you can see late model Disco/90/RR shafts are necked down to about the same diameter as 10 spline axles...

[Red90]

I was a little bored and ran up the calcs to include common shafts on axles in the US.

[will993]

Wow this thread really blew up...


what have you decided to go with Will.........

As I needed a solution quickly I managed to find a new set of std axles for a very reasonable price. These will keep me going for the next couple of months, at which time i'll grab a set of Maxi's/Hi-tough in preperation for the Cape Trip.
Thanks for all the input!

[steveG]

Wow this thread really blew up...



As I needed a solution quickly I managed to find a new set of std axles for a very reasonable price. These will keep me going for the next couple of months, at which time i'll grab a set of Maxi's/Hi-tough in preperation for the Cape Trip.
Thanks for all the input!

Personally I wouldn't panic about having to have them for a Cape trip. We did our trip up there in July on standard rear axles with no drama's.
Ours is a '85 110 with turbo'd Isuzu 4bd1 and 255/85-16 tyres and Detroit rear locker. Reasonably loaded up but we weren't towing. We've got a on-road Jayco Flamingo so do a bit of towing normally, but none offroad.

If you've got the spare cash then go for it and get the good axles, but if you're a bit tight there's probably more useful things to spend your dollars on for that trip.

Steve

[dullbird]

we did the cape in july on standard axles as well towing a camper trailer no dramas either so agree with the poster above

[Drover]

If anything one thing is the most venerable, it have to be CV's, I would think.

[rick130]

If anything one thing is the most venerable, it have to be CV's, I would think.

Vulnerable ;) (I'm guessing your spell checker did it ?)

There are plenty of 110's around with AUE2522 Cv's that have multiple hundreds of thousands of Km on them, and lots of 110/130's with the crappy, small shaft 32 spline CV's happily soldiering on, but yeah, they'll go bang on full lock, lots of right foot and a locker, although sometimes not straight away either but have been substantially weakened in the bush.

I'm guessing it's a 50/50 type situation, but most end up replacing axles first as Land Rover have been using greased wheel bearings with two piece axles now for twenty years so the fretting/corrosion problem is well entrenched.

FWIW I posted a Q on LR4x4 a couple of hours ago re current KAM CV's.
Hopefully the two ex-KAM boys might chip on the current state of quality there.
I like the idea of an RRC style CV with replaceable stub axles, although Bearmach AEU2522 replacement CV's held up well in Ashcrofts testing for thos not wishing/unable to cough up for the strong CV's.

I'm also wondering if the wear problem some seem to be experiencing with the Ashcroft CV's might be mitigated somewhat by a better quality, super high EP oil, or better still, (and I'm dreading the outcry from suggesting this) a super high quality CV grease like NEO CV500 or HPCC1 ?

The racing type CV greases are loaded with bucket loads of lubricating solids as well as being overdosed on EP additives to fix the problems of Indycar/F1/Sports Car tripod joints and older race car CV joints.

[mox]

Hi Tough, Ashcrofts or whatever you choose they will still flog out at the drive flange if you don't change to oil lubed hubs.
It is a relatively simple fix and if done from new I am sure the factory axles would last a hell of a lot longer than they do.

I run Hi tough/maxidrive rears with their flanges all round and with the oil lubed hubs I don't expect to ever have problems in that area.

IMO the dreaded driveline clunk found in most defenders starts from there and gradually flogs out everything else including the A frame ball joint.

Cheers,
Paul.

I had left rear axle and hub splines on '97 build 130 Defender strip when vehicle had only done about 35,000 km. Other three at the time were still OK - still had a bit of oil or grease in them. Anyway, bought secondhand set of standard axles and hubs from another Defender owner who upgraded his. Also some oil seals which I intended to replace grease seals in hubs with.

However, the latter job still has not been done. Seems a quick and easy interim measure I used to stop the problem of axle splines running dry and chopping out in grease filled hubs is quite satisfactory. When repeated`occasionally should achieve same result as converting to oil fill. Simply clean plastic cap over axle end on hub and remove it. Then about half fill with diff oil or probably better still thicker industrial hypoid oil from Castrol which I used. Then just slap cap back on before oil can run out. Obviously caps should be in good condition. Anyway, a bit of surplus oil would work its way through the splines and into the bearing grease. Should stop the latter from going hard and not circulating a bit within bearings as it gets older. However, unless procedure is repeated far more often than necessary, should not be enough oil working its way out past original grease seal to cause any problem.

I have never noticed any complaints about splines on these LR axles stripping on the diff end and they are the same as those on the hub end. Seems to me if the above quick and simple maintenence job is done on all Defenders with grease filled hubs from early in their life onwards, there should not be any problems with splines of standard exles and hubs running dry of lubricant and stripping themselves.