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dullbird
11th October 2012, 09:58 PM
guys i'm just wondering if anyone can tell me

I have purchased a superwinch x9

would 30m of 10mm rope fit on the drum??

was looking at this
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Synthetic-Winch-Rope-Yellow-30-x-10mm-Patrol-Nissan-GQ-GU-Toyota-Landcruiser-/110963042718?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d5e9a99e

Thanks

Lou

Tombie
11th October 2012, 10:25 PM
Sure would:)

dullbird
11th October 2012, 10:35 PM
Mike what is the maximum length of 10mm I could fit on the drum do you know?

and I'm assuming 10mm is more than adequate or should I go a little smaller diameter so I can get more rope on?

Tombie
11th October 2012, 10:39 PM
10mm is quite good wearing...

30mtrs is almost all recoveries... often less is needed...

Get an extension strap or more rope as an extension strap for longer recoveries...

30mtrs fills nicely, any more and you cant get the lay on the drum nice...

dullbird
11th October 2012, 10:43 PM
Ok cool thanks..although lay on the drum nice? its my understanding you are supposed to put synth rope on the drum messy because if you line and layer it on llike wire rope it can easily bind

Tombie
11th October 2012, 10:45 PM
In this scenario.. By lay nice I mean cross hatch pattern...

Layer 1 /////////
Layer 2 \\\\\\\\\

Unlike S.W.R where each layer is: ||||||||| ;)

dullbird
11th October 2012, 10:47 PM
nice pictures :D

rick130
12th October 2012, 05:14 AM
Good price and find Lou.

Hmm, do I really need to shed a few kg's from the front end ? :angel:

dullbird
12th October 2012, 11:09 AM
I do think you could possibly get it a little cheaper however I like the fact its yellow..in keeping with the car plus bit more hi vis I reckon.....

LowRanger
12th October 2012, 12:41 PM
Lou

Don't get caught up in the pretty colour thing:p

The specs for the rope look OK,although nowhere near the what they could be for that diameter rope.
The other thing you should find out is,does the rope have a metal thimble fitted in the eye.And also it says it has an eye and splice sheath pre fitted.You should ask if the sheath is moveable along the length of the rope,and can be used as an abrasion guard,because this is something that is overlooked and ideally should be fitted to any synthetic winch rope.Ideally you would want it to be at least 3mts long.If these items were not fitted,I would walk away and order what I really needed.

Blknight.aus
12th October 2012, 02:27 PM
whichever you get dont forget to carefully heat shrink on a warning marker when you're down to about the last 6 turns on the drum.

Ive had to re-crimp far too many synth lines that have pulled out of their eyelets because the operators tried to load up without enough left on the drum.

dullbird
12th October 2012, 04:56 PM
Wayne I would of fitted an abrasion guard anyway...I have one on the 110.

in fact I was considering fitting an abbrasion guard at one end and a rope sock (which is much tighter fitting) at the other to know when I got the last wraps on the drum.

I did wonder whether it had the metal eyelet in the end of the loop however I wondered whether it wasn't and was taken out for a reason because do you really need the metal eyelet in it as long as there is a hold strong enough to be able to accommodate a hook?

can you point me in the directions of some specs wayne if your saying there is better stuff out there.

Blknight.aus
12th October 2012, 06:04 PM
I did wonder whether it had the metal eyelet in the end of the loop however I wondered whether it wasn't and was taken out for a reason because do you really need the metal eyelet in it as long as there is a hold strong enough to be able to accommodate a hook?


the eyelet (or webbing former) is there to protect the rope at the hook up point from creasing, abrading and cutting. About 1/3 of the plastic ropes I see on winches I'm servicing have damage at and around the eyelet, I've just recently started wrapping the eye with a rubber electrical tape and the "splice" with a low temp heat shrink and providing the instruction that if the wrapping is damaged have it checked.

LowRanger
12th October 2012, 06:40 PM
Wayne I would of fitted an abrasion guard anyway...I have one on the 110.

in fact I was considering fitting an abbrasion guard at one end and a rope sock (which is much tighter fitting) at the other to know when I got the last wraps on the drum.

I did wonder whether it had the metal eyelet in the end of the loop however I wondered whether it wasn't and was taken out for a reason because do you really need the metal eyelet in it as long as there is a hold strong enough to be able to accommodate a hook?

can you point me in the directions of some specs wayne if your saying there is better stuff out there.

Lou

The thimble not only stops the rope from abrading and cutting,it helps to spread the load around the eyelet and not just at the point where the clevis pin for the hook contacts the rope.

weeds
12th October 2012, 08:45 PM
i was looking at this rope for my PTO...... Best Deals Direct items - Get great deals on items on eBay Stores! (http://stores.ebay.com.au/Best-Deals-Direct/Dyneema-Rope-10mm-x-30m-/_i.html?_fsub=2143950016&_sid=712690956&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322) probably this one New Dyneema Winch Rope Sk75 Synthetic Cable 9mm x 45m 4WD Recovery Offroad Warn | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Dyneema-Winch-Rope-Sk75-Synthetic-Cable-9mm-x-45m-4WD-Recovery-Offroad-Warn-/170920062098?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item27cba12c92#ht_4431wt_1348)

how important is having an eyelet? i see the guys a work and cranes using endless/round slings, i understand they are constructed differently but are these designed to bend around tight radius's compared to winch rope? i notice a lot of suppliers do not have eyelets fitted.

Blknight.aus
12th October 2012, 09:44 PM
its variable.

if you cant tie your own knots or splice the stuff, its important. if you can, not so much.

the strength of an endless sling is in the fibres in the middle the sheath on the outside is to keep it together, keep it clean, and provide identification,.

NavyDiver
14th October 2012, 07:00 PM
guys i'm just wondering if anyone can tell me

I have purchased a superwinch x9

would 30m of 10mm rope fit on the drum??

was looking at this
Synthetic Winch Rope Yellow 30 x 10mm Patrol, Nissan GQ, GU Toyota Landcruiser | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Synthetic-Winch-Rope-Yellow-30-x-10mm-Patrol-Nissan-GQ-GU-Toyota-Landcruiser-/110963042718?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19d5e9a99e)

Thanks

Lou
It would Loo but you might like to save a dollar or two via Dyneema ROPE (http://tigerz11.com.au/categories/Dyneema-Rope/)

Have you seen http://www.aulro.com/afvb/recovery/158850-tigerz-11-yellow-rope-sleeve.html

dullbird
17th October 2012, 10:42 PM
just for interest that link i put up earlier the rope does not have the metal eye on it its a spliced loop with an abrasion guard over the top......

just in case anyone was thinking of buying

Rick Fischer
18th October 2012, 04:57 PM
In this scenario.. By lay nice I mean cross hatch pattern...

Layer 1 /////////
Layer 2 \\\\\\\\\

Unlike S.W.R where each layer is: ||||||||| ;)


Wish I could get mine on like that I I I I I I I I . Without a cyclic rewind mine is always more like **** :angel:

RF

John W
20th March 2013, 11:25 AM
Just to slightly hijack this thread; I have an aldi winch works very well. Super cheap have a deal on with 10mm dynema and an aluminium hawse fairlead for $199. Tempted but wondering about the problem of heat in the drum affecting the dynema. Is this a real world problem or just theoretical and I presume the heat would be from brake action letting the rope out backwards down hill more than pulling out of a bog or up a hill? Does anyone use a cheap chinese winch with dynema. I just like the safety factor of the dynema if it lets go.

rangieman
20th March 2013, 01:26 PM
Just to slightly hijack this thread; I have an aldi winch works very well. Super cheap have a deal on with 10mm dynema and an aluminium hawse fairlead for $199. Tempted but wondering about the problem of heat in the drum affecting the dynema. Is this a real world problem or just theoretical and I presume the heat would be from brake action letting the rope out backwards down hill more than pulling out of a bog or up a hill? Does anyone use a cheap chinese winch with dynema. I just like the safety factor of the dynema if it lets go.
You answered your own question re the brake and heat , Don't power out under load and all will be good no matter what brand or origin of winch , High mount winch,s don't suffer the same fate as their brake is not part of the drum its external;)

Tank
20th March 2013, 01:48 PM
just for interest that link i put up earlier the rope does not have the metal eye on it its a spliced loop with an abrasion guard over the top......

just in case anyone was thinking of buying
Instead of using a hook with a skinny clevis pin in the eye of your winch rope (this goes for wire cables as well) which will damage the eye every time you use it.
Use a bow shackle, the shackle pin is much thicker than the clevis pin in a hook setup and won't damage the eye in your rope, Regards Frank.

rick130
20th March 2013, 06:20 PM
Just to slightly hijack this thread; I have an aldi winch works very well. Super cheap have a deal on with 10mm dynema and an aluminium hawse fairlead for $199. Tempted but wondering about the problem of heat in the drum affecting the dynema. Is this a real world problem or just theoretical and I presume the heat would be from brake action letting the rope out backwards down hill more than pulling out of a bog or up a hill? Does anyone use a cheap chinese winch with dynema. I just like the safety factor of the dynema if it lets go.


You answered your own question re the brake and heat , Don't power out under load and all will be good no matter what brand or origin of winch , High mount winch,s don't suffer the same fate as their brake is not part of the drum its external;)

You could always run a Kevlar or Nomex cover over the first layer of rope on the drum too just to insulate it.

flagg
20th March 2013, 09:05 PM
...it melts.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/03/420.jpg

clubagreenie
21st March 2013, 10:22 AM
You could always run a Kevlar or Nomex cover over the first layer of rope on the drum too just to insulate it.

Source?

clubagreenie
3rd April 2013, 12:28 AM
Looking back at this you can get a different type of thimble. Mine is stainless and encircles the rope at the ends but is open around the radius.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/755.jpg

Pros: Heavy duty & stainless, stops damage if dragged along ground as only small part of end is exposed, easy to fit hook, rope slides easily in it (not crimped or fixed), room for rope sheath if desired, about $25 by memory, doesn't distort or twist under load like the lighter ones.

Cons: A bit heavier, about $25 by memory
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/887/imag01631.jpg] (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/imag01631.jpg/)

rick130
3rd April 2013, 07:04 AM
Source?

I've seen Kevlar overbraids on ebay and I think the US rope sellers stock it.

While primarily for abrasion protection, kevlar has very, very good thermal qualities and I'm sure I've seen it advertised as a first layer wrap to protect against brake heat on XD style winches.
I planned on getting one when i was looking at buying rope, but I've stuck with wire (for now).

Leroy_Riding
8th April 2013, 01:32 PM
kind of another Hijack here, But Ive just re-built my winch.
but what I have done is take my RidgeRider 1200-lb (super cheap) and my burnt out Tigerz11 9000lb 2 speed and built myself a a winch using the 6hp motor from the Ridge Rider 12000lb and the 2speed gearbox from my burnt out Tigerz11 now it seems to run fine and all but Ive noticed that the drum from the Tigerz11 isnt exactly square so when spinning the center of the drum is straight but the ends wobble a bit. Does anyone see an issue with this?

also the main reason for my reply is, I also have the orange synthetic rope from the Ridge Rider, is it worth continuing to use this? or should i ditch it and spend the money on dyneema?

Bardizzo
8th April 2013, 08:53 PM
Source?

Nomex Braided Sleeving, High-Temperature Light-weight Sleeving (http://www.cableorganizer.com/nomex/#features)

Dave

Loubrey
17th April 2013, 04:08 PM
Just got mine in the post from these guys...

Winch Rope Sock protector 2mtr - www.roadrunneroffroad.com.au (http://www.roadrunneroffroad.com.au/Winch-Rope-Sock-protector-2mtr.html)

Maybe not kevlar or nomex but good tough synthetic gear to protect the first 2 meters after the hook from abrasion and UV damage (already have the good heat resistant one protecting the line on the drum.

Cheers,

Lou

jonesy63
7th May 2013, 04:00 PM
Has anyone actually bought one of the low price dyneema ropes of eBay? For instance, this one:
10mm X 30M Blue Dyneema SK 75 Synthetic Winch Rope Cable Uhmwpe 9 5T 4x4 4WD ATV | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/10mm-x-30m-BLUE-DYNEEMA-SK-75-SYNTHETIC-WINCH-ROPE-CABLE-UHMWPE-9-5T-4x4-4WD-ATV-/270984262702?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f17ebb42e&_uhb=1)

At $139.50 delivered, it is about the cheapest out there. Just not sure if the eye and lug are made from alfoil, rope not really SK75, etc.

Tigerz11 has 10mm for $220... and then the price climbs from there.

Opinions?

Thanks,
Rob

Tank
8th May 2013, 03:05 PM
Well they say in the eBay ad that the " Working Load : 9,500 kg. Or over 20,000 lbs",
which I find amazing that 10mm rope can used to lift almost 10 tonnes, so If they believe that then what else is "true" about their product, if a supplier of recovery gear can't give give you the Safe Working Load/Working Load Limit (SWL/WLL) then buy from someone that can, BTW the thimble in the eye of the rope should be made of steel, Regards Frank.

FeatherWeightDriver
8th May 2013, 05:31 PM
9500kg sounds about right for the breaking strain of raw 10mm dyneema line (i.e. not spliced), but that's definitely not the SWL.

I struggled to find anyone that would quote a SWL on dyneema rope, probably because of something like this:


Because of the wide range of rope use, rope condition and the degree of risk of life or property, it is not possible to make a blanket recommendation for safe working load. It is ultimately dependent on the rope user to determine what percentage of break strength is their own safe working load

On a related not I stumbled on this thimble end for nylon ropes that I had not seen before. Then again, maybe I'm just slow... :cool:

http://www.winchline.com/images-products/ST3s.gif
http://www.winchline.com/images-products/viking-wl-stm.gif

Tank
8th May 2013, 07:00 PM
That thimble looks the goods, but if it is aluminium I wouldn't use it, and if a company that makes/sells this type of rope can't give you a SWL when they already know the Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS) then they are bull****ting, because 9500kg. sounds better than 1900kg SWL, Regards Frank.

jboot51
8th May 2013, 07:19 PM
What's peoples thoughts on using synthetic rope through a pulley block.
If you need a Hawse Fairlead on the winch then a pulley block would possibly be frowned upon.

clubagreenie
8th May 2013, 07:43 PM
I've been searching for the same answer for months. If there's requirements for syn to use a hawse is there a spec for use of pulleys etc (steel/alloy/plastic of some sort).

FeatherWeightDriver
8th May 2013, 08:42 PM
That thimble looks the goods, but if it is aluminium I wouldn't use it, and if a company that makes/sells this type of rope can't give you a SWL when they already know the Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS) then they are bull****ting, because 9500kg. sounds better than 1900kg SWL, Regards Frank.

Of the two figures I'd rather know the GBS rather than the SWL. That way I can be the judge based on the situation if I can get away with a 2x, 5x or 10x safety factor.

As for the thimble, it is aluminium (Viking Offroad Safety Thimble 2 Black (http://www.vikingoffroad.com/viking-offroad-safety-thimble-2-black/)) which I guess will means it comes off second best if you are plugging it in to steel shackles

Tank
8th May 2013, 09:45 PM
Of the two figures I'd rather know the GBS rather than the SWL. That way I can be the judge based on the situation if I can get away with a 2x, 5x or 10x safety factor.

As for the thimble, it is aluminium (Viking Offroad Safety Thimble 2 Black (http://www.vikingoffroad.com/viking-offroad-safety-thimble-2-black/)) which I guess will means it comes off second best if you are plugging it in to steel shackles
The SWL is a Safety Factor, it is used because from the first use of the rope/cable it deteriorates and will eventually deteriorate to the point where it is unusable, so after use over a year or so your GBS is no longer that advertised, that's why if you use a rope to it's GBS the chances of it breaking are certain. How would you be the judge of say a rope that has been used a dozen times and has had the occasional abrasion and been submerged in mud, leaving sharp particles of dirt in the fibres, what is the Breaking Strain of this rope after this.

Commonsense says that if you use a rope to it's SWL/WLL then you will get some life out of it and less chance of failure.
As far as pulleys go wire rope is more adversely affected by snatch blocks than fibre rope, wire rope needs as big a diameter pulley as possible and the groove needs to be the right size for the Dia. of the cable, too narrow and the cable will be pinched, too wide and the cable will be flattened. Common to both rope and wire cable is when they pass over the pulley wheel the outside of the cable/rope is stretched and the inside (closest to groove surface) gets crushed. In a wire cable this causes kinking and broken wires, rope is not as badly affected but it will cause some damage and if the rope has grit in the fibres it will eventually destroy the rope (lower the GBS), another reason to work within the SWL/WLL, Regards Frank.

FeatherWeightDriver
8th May 2013, 10:05 PM
^^^ I hear you tank, and completely agree the GBS isn't a load to work to, it's the number to calculate from. :angel:

Knowing the SWL and the safety factor tells you the GBS, but if the manufacturer does not tell you the safety factor you really don't know much about how strong that gear is at all.

Take rock climbing gear as an example (near and dear to my heart)

All rock climbing gear comes GBS loadings, not SWL. So if I take a piece of rated equipment out of the packaging, and decide to load it up to 90% of GBS for a certain application where failure is not terminal, then that's my call and I should expect the gear to perform.

If on the other hand I am pulling an injured mate up a cliff with non-new gear I will make damned sure my safety factor for every single piece of gear in the link is 1/20th the GBS (20x safety factor) to cover degradation over time, redundancy in the system etc.

In your example if a piece of gear gear goes round a tighter bend, is wet, is older, needs a mid line knot etc. etc. that also needs to be factored, meaning a higher factor for that link.

But the safety factor to apply for each piece of gear, in each situation, is my call and no-one else's.

Another way to look at it is like this: You have a rope with a SWL of 1 tonne. When is it no longer fit for purpose? If you don't understand how the gear works (not saying you don't...) and don't know the GBS (or SWL and safety factor) and you don't know how the gear is being used (static load, dynamic load, wet, dry, old, new, corners, knots) then you simply don't know if it is fit for purpose any more...

Maybe this mob explain it better than I do: The ABCs of Recovery Safety: WLL, SWL, & MBS – Central Overland (http://centraloverland.com/2011/04/working-load-limit-wll-safe-working-load-swl-minimum-breaking-strength-mbs/)

Heck actually they do, maybe just ignore me and read the linked web page :D

FeatherWeightDriver
8th May 2013, 10:40 PM
Apologies for the rant, but if you spend enough time hanging off gear that is saving your life you spend a lot of time thinking about how it works ;)

My other pet hate about SWLs is that the SWL is entirely without context.

Climbing gear (yes sorry here we go again) is rated for different loading configurations:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/906.jpg

But if I load a recovery shackle at 45 degrees or 90 degrees (see below, assuming the pin can't pivot) when will it break? I'm betting well within the SWL, particularly at 90 degrees...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/907.jpg

Tank
8th May 2013, 11:49 PM
Apologies for the rant, but if you spend enough time hanging off gear that is saving your life you spend a lot of time thinking about how it works ;)

My other pet hate about SWLs is that the SWL is entirely without context.

Climbing gear (yes sorry here we go again) is rated for different loading configurations:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/906.jpg

But if I load a recovery shackle at 45 degrees or 90 degrees (see below, assuming the pin can't pivot) when will it break? I'm betting well within the SWL, particularly at 90 degrees...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/907.jpg
I've posted before about using a shackle the way it was designed to be used, in that case involving a 8.0 tonne GBS snatch strap and a shackle with a GBS of 17.5 tonne, with the snatch vehicle off centre to one side (probably 30 to 40 degrees).
In this case the shackle was torn apart and the shackle pin travelled 50+ metres and broke the cast iron hinge on the back of a Stage 1 LR. the shackle body disappeared in to the scrub.
So the point here was that 17.5 tonne GBS exploded and the supposedly weakest link, the 8 tonne GBS snatch strap, survived intact. So misusing the shackle that was engineered and designed only to be used in a straight ahead pull ends up the weak link, instead of the strongest.
In your diagram the recovery point is thick enough to stop the actual pin shank jambing in the hole, but the majority of recovery points on 4WD's are about half that thickness, allowing the shackle pin to janb on a much smaller surface are.
Easy way to tell if a shackle has been abused is if it is harder to undo the pin, if you can't undo it with your fingers then the body of the shackle or the pin has been bent.
I've seen riggers and 4WD'ers misuse a shackle and have to undo the pin with a podgy bar or a shifter, luckily most times the pin will not screw back into the shackle body and is disposed of (with a gas axe). BTW the SF for a Lift or device that lifts people is 10, so you should feel OK about getting in a lift, Regards Frank.

THE BOOGER
9th May 2013, 12:12 AM
Hey Frank I knew you would like the shackle post have had that discussion with you before:D

Tank
9th May 2013, 02:42 AM
Hello Geoff, I understand you have a Disco now, you haven't got rid of "the Booger" have you, love that truck and when are you coming down this way again.
Bloody shackles, I was watching 4WD Action on Aurora channel 183 on Austar the other night. Roothy and his mates tearing up the countryside, getting bogged rigging up to pull a 3 tonne nissan/toyota piece of crap up a hill, when they threw a tree strap aound a tree with one eye on the pin of the shackle the other eye on the side and the hook from the winch cable on the opposite side, talk about morons that should know better, passing on dangerous practices on to the general public, anyway got any pics of the new machine, Regards Frank.

uninformed
9th May 2013, 07:05 AM
Regarding the aluminium thimble being a bad choice of material, would it not depend on what type and spec aluminium before writing it off ?

Red90
9th May 2013, 07:30 AM
My thought on SWL...based on stall rating of winch.

Rope 2:1
Rigging and attachments 4:1
This ensures the rope is the failure point if any as that is much safer than a failure of the rigging.

With proper care of the rope you will not see failure with reasonable life by the time you see normal abrasion as require replacement, you will be within a safe fatigue loading for a 2:1 safety factor.

FeatherWeightDriver
9th May 2013, 08:31 AM
With proper care of the rope you will not see failure with reasonable life

Agreed - proper care and use within the design envelope.

I found this vid (apologies for those who have seen it before) illustrating why it is a bad idea to use rope / straps with knots in them. Especially without a dampener.

That's a decent size dent in the back of the car for "only" strap impact.

Australia's Best 4WD BOGS - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZSlOH7LHVxk#t=503s)

(action starts at 8:23)

THE BOOGER
9th May 2013, 09:39 AM
Hello Geoff, I understand you have a Disco now, you haven't got rid of "the Booger" have you, love that truck and when are you coming down this way again.
Bloody shackles, I was watching 4WD Action on Aurora channel 183 on Austar the other night. Roothy and his mates tearing up the countryside, getting bogged rigging up to pull a 3 tonne nissan/toyota piece of crap up a hill, when they threw a tree strap aound a tree with one eye on the pin of the shackle the other eye on the side and the hook from the winch cable on the opposite side, talk about morons that should know better, passing on dangerous practices on to the general public, anyway got any pics of the new machine, Regards Frank.

Still got the s111 got the d1 just to play with:D hoping to get down your way soon the disco is much faster than the booger

Tank
9th May 2013, 12:56 PM
Yes, but the SIII looks the part, be good to see you and the young fella down here again, Regards Frank.

Tank
9th May 2013, 01:09 PM
The alloy thimble does look solid, but where it counts, inside of the eye of the rope the alloy doesn't look to be any thicker than a steel thimble, I have never seen any thimble made of anything other than steel.
The eye of the rope is the most vunerable part of a winch rope, if you look at breakages of otherwise undamaged rope you will find the most breakages occur at the eye that doesn't have a thimble to protect the rope fibres. I have seen ropes actually melt at the eye (without thimble) and fuse into a solid.
I don't think an alloy thimble would be strong enough to handle the type of forces imposed on a steel thimble, Regards Frank.

Tank
9th May 2013, 01:37 PM
My thought on SWL...based on stall rating of winch.

Rope 2:1
Rigging and attachments 4:1
This ensures the rope is the failure point if any as that is much safer than a failure of the rigging.

With proper care of the rope you will not see failure with reasonable life by the time you see normal abrasion as require replacement, you will be within a safe fatigue loading for a 2:1 safety factor.
SWL is a Safety Factor used because the first time you use or abuse a new rope it's GBS becomes less and each use or abuse diminishes the GBS of the rope.
Now if you use 2:1 SF on a rope that has say 10tonne GBS by loading it to 5 tonne then you are putting more stress and damage than if you used a SF of 5:1, so in theory the 5:1 loaded rope should last longer than a 2:1 loaded rope.
Because a rope is tested in a laboratory to destuction to find it's GBS, how in everyday use do you determine the ever diminishing GBS of a rope that has had a severe shock loading, been dragged over abrasive surfaces and through mud, what would the GBS be of this rope after it had been subjected to this sort of work.
Only way of knowing what the GBS is of a well worked rope would be to test it to destruction in a Lab test.
Point being that SWL's are there to cover this type of Use/Misuse or abuse as it is impossible to guess how far the GBS has dropped from when the rope was new.
Dyneema 12 strand rope has the same strength as wire rope of the same diameter, wire cable rope for a winch will (should be) IWRC 7 strands, with 19/24 wires per strand. Dyneema rope has some advantages, 90% lighter, it floats and doesn't kink, wire rope, heavier, doesnt float, not affected by sunlight or abrasion, does kink.
But diameter for diameter they are the same strength (quoting the company that manufactures Dyneema), so if you stick to the limits of a SWL/WLL and maintain your rope you will get a longer safer life from your rope or cable, Regards Frank.

Blknight.aus
9th May 2013, 02:08 PM
Apologies for the rant, but if you spend enough time hanging off gear that is saving your life you spend a lot of time thinking about how it works ;)

My other pet hate about SWLs is that the SWL is entirely without context.

Climbing gear (yes sorry here we go again) is rated for different loading configurations:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/906.jpg

But if I load a recovery shackle at 45 degrees or 90 degrees (see below, assuming the pin can't pivot) when will it break? I'm betting well within the SWL, particularly at 90 degrees...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/907.jpg

ID bet you're wrong....

If you were talking about ally stuff like the climbing gear usually is Id back you but with the steel stuff, not so much.

You'll get deformation of the shackle onto the pin which if its done too tight will bind up the shackle warranting its replacement. Its a moot point at any rate because typically if you're recovering off of a bow shackle at more than 45 degrees off center you're most likely doing it wrong enough to be risking additional damage to the vehicle or other recovery equipement.

FeatherWeightDriver
9th May 2013, 02:30 PM
I'm always happy to be on the safe side of that line.

It keeps me from "doing it wrong" (as you said)... :)

Here's a shackle tested to failure with both pull force axes rotated by 90 degrees from the usual. It always amazes me how much (non brittle) metal gear stretches before it fails...

Super Slings Inc. 5/8" Shackle Break Test - YouTube

Blknight.aus
9th May 2013, 06:33 PM
what your facing off against with ally lifting gear is that all the strenght is in the outside where the hardening is, damage that or deform it and then your basically dealing with the playdough soft ally in the middle.

if you'd like a real world example of why you can trust bow shackles for some good angles lets try this.

Picture doing a 2 leg lift, its a 4t weight so you use a 4t shackle BUT due to lifting height clearance restrictions you need to do the lift running on the limit of slinging angles of 120 degrees. to pull that off you need to have 8T legs hanging from the shackle.

so theres 8T trying to deform the shackle.

As a side tip. If you EVER have a dogger or craney trying to explain that that is a perfectly safe way to conduct a lift walk off. The dimensions of the gear is matched, if you need to rig 8t straps you use an 8t shackle to avoid damage to the straps.


for your video

did you notice that they stated the MBS (which I'm assuming is the manufacturers stated value not a test value) and the test shackle beat out both the stated normal pull and side pull values on the graph at the end?

on the graph

can you spot when the shackle is going through its "plastic" stage? (more questions on that later if you can)

given that the shackle can reduce in diameter 10% before its a write off, where on the graph at the end (nearest 500lb or second) has that shackle reached the point where it (in theory) is deformed past that 10%.?

FeatherWeightDriver
9th May 2013, 08:20 PM
Yes I did notice the breaking load was give or take the "normal" load direction MBS, but was going to do some more homework to see why that was the case :angel:

Best I can come up with is that the strength across the gate is not too different to the strength across the curved section. As they load roughly evenly with a centre line load, there is also no torque to worry about.

I wonder if that is still true for the 90 degree load in the my earlier diagram? The torque must decrease the strength, but the only reference I can find to loading that way says subtract 50% of the limit load (whichever one you are working in). Source: http://www.dcl-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/PH00_Shackles_Part1.pdf

As for your other questions, as it has been nearly 20 years since I last "knew" that stuff I will need some more thinking time :(

Blknight.aus
9th May 2013, 09:43 PM
start by researching torque to yield bolts.

think along the lines of that sinking "why'd the bolt just get easier to turn" feeling some people get just before they take the torque wrench off only to discover no radiating lines when there should be 3 or 6 or no marking when there should be an 8.8 or 10.9.

Tank
9th May 2013, 11:11 PM
what your facing off against with ally lifting gear is that all the strenght is in the outside where the hardening is, damage that or deform it and then your basically dealing with the playdough soft ally in the middle.

if you'd like a real world example of why you can trust bow shackles for some good angles lets try this.

Picture doing a 2 leg lift, its a 4t weight so you use a 4t shackle BUT due to lifting height clearance restrictions you need to do the lift running on the limit of slinging angles of 120 degrees. to pull that off you need to have 8T legs hanging from the shackle.

so theres 8T trying to deform the shackle.

As a side tip. If you EVER have a dogger or craney trying to explain that that is a perfectly safe way to conduct a lift walk off. The dimensions of the gear is matched, if you need to rig 8t straps you use an 8t shackle to avoid damage to the straps.


for your video

did you notice that they stated the MBS (which I'm assuming is the manufacturers stated value not a test value) and the test shackle beat out both the stated normal pull and side pull values on the graph at the end?

on the graph

can you spot when the shackle is going through its "plastic" stage? (more questions on that later if you can)

given that the shackle can reduce in diameter 10% before its a write off, where on the graph at the end (nearest 500lb or second) has that shackle reached the point where it (in theory) is deformed past that 10%.?
A shackle pin or body can wear up to 10% before condemning, but if there is an area that has waisted due to stretching you wouldn't worry about if was 10%, you would scrap it immediatley.
In the scenario above with the 8 tonne slings you would not use a shackle to connect the slings to to the crane hook, you would either use a manufactured sling with one piece round or oblong style "rings" which are usually connected to a larger crane hook ring. You certanly would not use a shackle on the crane hook with slings at any angle over 45 degrees. Shackles may be used at the other end of the slings as long as they were being loaded in the straight ahead line.
I was watching (on Austar) a while back a recovery of a 20ft container supposedly weighing around 20 tonne from a ditch on the side of the road, they used a 4 leg chain sling and because of the angle of the container one of the hooks couldn't be connected to the container pin holes on one corner. So they used a large shackle, looked to be 50/60mm in thickness in the pin hole and they fitted another shackle into the side of the "D" shackle body then hooked up the sling hook. These shackles were in the 20 tonne SWL range. The crane lifted the container and when it was about 10' off the ground the shackle that was jambed in the container pin hole, and being pulled sideways broke and the load fell to the ground and the mobile crane flipped over backwards, no one was injured. Another case of a load equal to the SWL of the shackle snapping well before its GBS because it was not designed to be used the way it was, Regards Frank.

Blknight.aus
10th May 2013, 06:24 AM
A shackle pin or body can wear up to 10% before condemning, but if there is an area that has waisted due to stretching you wouldn't worry about if was 10%, you would scrap it immediatley.
In the scenario above with the 8 tonne slings you would not use a shackle to connect the slings to to the crane hook, you would either use a manufactured sling with one piece round or oblong style "rings" which are usually connected to a larger crane hook ring. You certanly would not use a shackle on the crane hook with slings at any angle over 45 degrees. Shackles may be used at the other end of the slings as long as they were being loaded in the straight ahead line.
I was watching (on Austar) a while back a recovery of a 20ft container supposedly weighing around 20 tonne from a ditch on the side of the road, they used a 4 leg chain sling and because of the angle of the container one of the hooks couldn't be connected to the container pin holes on one corner. So they used a large shackle, looked to be 50/60mm in thickness in the pin hole and they fitted another shackle into the side of the "D" shackle body then hooked up the sling hook. These shackles were in the 20 tonne SWL range. The crane lifted the container and when it was about 10' off the ground the shackle that was jambed in the container pin hole, and being pulled sideways broke and the load fell to the ground and the mobile crane flipped over backwards, no one was injured. Another case of a load equal to the SWL of the shackle snapping well before its GBS because it was not designed to be used the way it was, Regards Frank.

you dont always happen to have custom slings for doing certain jobs. sometimes you have to make the gear as you go.

I think know the show you were watching and if memory serves they were trying to lift a 40ft container not a 20 (which is why the gear didnt reach) and they were well past the 120 degree limit when the shackle broke

Tank
10th May 2013, 01:41 PM
you dont always happen to have custom slings for doing certain jobs. sometimes you have to make the gear as you go.

I think know the show you were watching and if memory serves they were trying to lift a 40ft container not a 20 (which is why the gear didnt reach) and they were well past the 120 degree limit when the shackle broke
Dave in the lifting scenario, if I didn't have a manufactured sling to do the job then I would do away with the shackle on the crane hook. I would put the eyes of the sling on the crane hook and if the crane hook size allowed it I would use a shackle in each eye and put those on the crane hook, Regards Frank

uninformed
10th May 2013, 08:13 PM
what I want to know is, who takes their friggin crane 4x4ing in the first place :p

Tombie
10th May 2013, 08:19 PM
what I want to know is, who takes their friggin crane 4x4ing in the first place :p

I prefer my Heavy-Lift Helicopter to escort my tougher trips :D

clubagreenie
12th May 2013, 05:36 PM
On the thimble front, here's my choice for synthetic.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/05/755.jpg

Blknight.aus
12th May 2013, 05:56 PM
what I want to know is, who takes their friggin crane 4x4ing in the first place :p

I've been known to get in with a bit of 4x4, 6x6 8x8 and once 10x10 off road in a crane to get to the site....

They suck when you bog em tho.

Tank
13th May 2013, 11:15 AM
I like the open ones, you can slip them into an existing eye and put some whipping around it to hold in place, with the closed one shown you would have to know how to splice. Anyone know how to splice Dyneema type ropes, or can refer to a site with instructions, regards Frank.

Blknight.aus
13th May 2013, 03:57 PM
theres plenty of it on you tube and splitting hairs your not really splicing it, that stuff works like Japanese finger trap so its not so much a plaiting process

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP74FE4p8to

theres one.

clubagreenie
13th May 2013, 09:34 PM
Check out Samson ropes, www.samsonrope.com (http://www.samsonrope.com) , , they manufacture dyneema and have great instructions including videos for every type of rope they manufacture. Check out the stuiff on splicing the kernmantle ropes where they cut off and then re-splice the sheath.

When I had mine done L&B Ropes had never done it either so they got the rep out, used my rope and trained and I got to sit in, was a great learning day.

Basically you pass the working end through the standing part, run both ends parallel a short distance (a ratio of the diameter and maybe eye size by memory) and then pass the standing part through the working end, a lot of rope to pull through but means the working end cannot pull out without turning the rope inside out. Then leave another short parallel length and insert the working end into the standing part, but there is allowance for tapering the tail down (4 strands at a time I think) to a nice tapered lead.

You can also do this without access to the end of the standing part but it's harder to do and remember and is harder on the rope. I'll try to get some pics of mine but need to get the winch fixed first (thanks to elecs burning out the motor).

Note; The video above is showing making a soft shackle, the tow ends are effectively tied together by a diamond knot so while it does simply pass down the centre and is held by the tightening of the outer braid, it cannot pull out anyway. The rep demonstrated on the test bed that dyneema will pull out of itself if it's done this simply. Both the working end and standing part need to cross each other at least once. Cheaper braided nylons will slip easier than genuine dyneema.

The diamond knot, which I'm trying to master, can be made even better by unbraiding the two lines and rebraiding them into each other as you would a traditional splice so creating two strands as before, each comprised of half of the other and then tying the diamond knot.

clubagreenie
29th May 2013, 12:02 AM
Here's an excerpt from a safety notice re a sling failure:


A damaged polyester sling was discovered during a routine safety audit in the SA. The label indicated "If red core yarns are visible remove the sling from service". Upon further inspection, the red core warning yarn was not present.


Hmmm

jonesy63
3rd June 2013, 01:45 PM
FWIW and reference - I just took off the wire cable and winch rollers, and replaced them with 30m of 10mm dyneema and aluminium offset hawse. The total weight saving was 11.5kg. Well worth the ~ $200.
Cheers,
Rob

weeds
3rd June 2013, 03:13 PM
FWIW and reference - I just took off the wire cable and winch rollers, and replaced them with 30m of 10mm dyneema and aluminium offset hawse. The total weight saving was 11.5kg. Well worth the ~ $200.
Cheers,
Rob

where did your rope come from..........after having to use my winch last friday on and off for 3 hrs with two diferent 2 to 1 set ups...the weight didn't bother it was the kinks and the wire going loose on the drum between pulls that was annoying

jonesy63
3rd June 2013, 07:04 PM
Hi Weeds,
I got the rope from this place on eBay:
NEW Dyneema Winch Rope SK75 Synthetic Cable 10mm X 30M 4WD Recovery Offroad Warn | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Dyneema-Winch-Rope-Sk75-Synthetic-Cable-10mm-x-30m-4WD-Recovery-Offroad-Warn/161035357679?ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1&ih=006&category=42611&cmd=ViewItem)

Came with protector at the drum end (for heat), as well as the loop end (for rocks).

Also got the offset hawse that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Cheers,
Rob

clubagreenie
4th June 2013, 07:37 AM
Don't quote me as I can't find the info yet but from memory SK75 while it is a syneema strand isn't necessarily the best option fir our applications for winch use.

Also found this video on cross winding laying of synthetic rope onto drums.

It's All About Rope: Winding Rope on a Winch - YouTube (http://youtu.be/eHPhb071ZVU)