late td5 or early puma?

[Samblers]

Hello all… long time lurker, first time poster here, considering my first dive into the world of Land Rovers and Adventure :)

I’m trying to weigh up which model (era) Defender 110 will be the best for my first purchase – I have read the buyers advice threads…

Specifically, my budget puts me within the range of buying either a late-model td5 or an early-model puma. What would be peoples advice on which is the better buy, and whether the early model pumas will be worth the extra 5 or so grand which I’ll have to spend? The difference between the two does not seem significant?

I have a young family, we will be using the car for weekend trips, camping and adventure, would like a bit of comfort, and I have mechanical skills.

Cheers, Sam
Perth, WA

[Blknight.aus]

my money says late TD5 (actually it screams ISUZU but thats not an option)

[Disco Muppet]

Agreed.
By the end of the Td5 run they should have worked out most of the quirks, AFAIK the Td5 is an easier engine to work on than the Tdci, and it leaves you with some $$$ for extra toys :twisted:

[chuck]

I would have said the early Puma.
They should have had all the bugs fixed under warranty by now & you get the benefit of the following:
1. air con that works
2. better seats
3. quieter more efficient motor
4. more torque
5. 6 speed
6. possibly seven seats if that what you need.
7. anti stall
8. improved traction control

Cheers

[Samblers]

Amen to that.

I must say i'm a great believer in never buying the first version of a product - thats partly why I asked the question - and reliability is important.

What are the other main functional differences I should be considering?

Any disadvantages with the td5?

Thanks

[Samblers]

Thanks chuck, your reply got in before me ...

How bad is air-con in td5 versus puma? I've tried puma and that does not even seem that great...? (wife and kids will want to know this!)

[frantic]

Td5 may be the go if your family is particularly young;) I have a td5 and the horizontal bar to fit 3 bolts for child restraint cost about 395 from memory. In a puma as they have the nice seats with a higher back you can't legally fit the horizontal bar as its to low so one puma ive sen spent over $1k to get a single bolt installed in the seat itself:o BUT (it's a big but):D it would make it easier to stow the seats when you need to move big things like lounges or tvs as the bar takes about 10-15 to undo instead of just folding the seats. Depending upon your Rta/dmr you may be able to incorporate the bolts with the cargo barrier like one of the posters did in the sticky related to this.
Puma has a nicer interior but some need double cardon fronts if lifted along with other things.
Mine has 9 seats with the inward facing rear cargo area 2002 model, last of the Salisbury rear diff defenders.

[Samblers]

Family is young, i.e. both in child seats... I will need restraint bar fitted. Saw a puma owner on here do this for $500 here in WA recently

Puma interior is "nicer" but i am probably only interested if the functionality is a significant improvement over the td5 (i.e. the reply regarding air-con, above)...

[Drover]

Go for the PUMA, don't be put off by PUMA bashers on here. The old green eyed monster has his teeth into some:eek:

Never had a TD5, but the PUMA is good thing, and yes the aircon is only just okay and everybody says how good it is. I couldn't imagine how bad the other must be.

Cheers

[Samblers]

Has anyone on here owned both?

[chuck]

The prices of well maintained TD5's are high.

There is some negotiation in new Defenders.

If you negotiate a good price and get the free corporate servicing package you could offset the purchase price by knowing you will not have to pay for service or repairs for 3 years.
If you are going to finance you will get a much better deal with a new car.
Something else to complicate the selection process!!!!


The air con has to work hard to cool such a big space.
The advantage over the TD5's is the face vents so that you can direct the air on to your face rather than knees.

I had a TD5 albeit in a D2.

I managed to incur all of the "little"problems of a TD5 i.e.
oil in the injector harness.
seized idler pulleys
severed hydraulic hoses
warped exhaust manifold
releif valves

They were not that expensive to fix but were annoying and eventually added up.

Cheers

[Samblers]

Thanks chuck

I am not considering a new puma, just an early puma (i.e. 2008 ish) versus 2005/6/7 td5

But yes the prices of nicer td5's are remarkably high, which is why i ask the question...

Cheers

[camel_landy]

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with either. Both are very solid, reliable platforms and I have spent plenty of time in both. If you have never driven either, it will be worth having a go in both as the different engines do drive differently.

Something I want to put straight from a previous comment though:

Anti-Stall... It IS also on the TD5.

The main reasons I'd go for a Puma over a TD5 are:

Better dash.
Better air-con.
Better rear seating.

M

[Samblers]

I think air-con may be a clincher, particularly with the Mrs

I know this seems to be a can of worms with Defenders (be gentle)...

but can the td5 aircon be upgraded?

[Disco Muppet]

Sure, open the windows :D :lol2:
Td5s can be expensive to maintain, but that can depend on how lucky you are ;)
Drive them both, see which on you prefer.

[towe0609]

A few AC upgrade options. This (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/130351-air-con-red-dot-6100-1999-td5-130-dual-cab.html) the ugliest and most expensive, but v effective and no condenser in front of radiator.

[Blknight.aus]

sure can ,just pull the center left vent out of the facia.

Found that one out by accident.

[goingbush]

Ive not owned a puma so its probably not fair that I comment, But I've owned a lot of Landrovers and 3 Landcruisers & a few ordinary cars too, as far as I'm concerned, the Td5 is the greatest engine of them all. Sure it has quirks but its a truly brilliant & very simple engine.

As far as the Aircon goes, the Td5 A/C is a joke. Again, cant comment on the Puma A/C.

but for just over a grand, Ive fitted an aftermarket minivan evaporator in the rear & its now by far the best A/C of any vehicle I've ever been in, it has to be expreienced to be believed.

theres a thread on it here somewhere.

[Samblers]

A few AC upgrade options. This (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/130351-air-con-red-dot-6100-1999-td5-130-dual-cab.html) the ugliest and most expensive, but v effective and no condenser in front of radiator.

Yeah thats fugly [bighmmm]

[n plus one]

Has anyone on here owned both?

Yep.

If you're after something to transport the family in go the Puma - more civilised interior,functional AC and reduced engin noise on the open road.

If you're after an off road truck just for you I'd go the TD5 - save a few bucks to spend on goodies and who cares about the civilities you're in low range anyway?

[Only ever owned landys Ed]

I own these cars
109 ex army
98 300tdi ute
98 td5 130 chipped
2007 puma chipped

I love all these cars but the reality is that as much as I like each one the puma is the best. It is quieter, more powerful, has a much better gearbox, better a/c, and better torque and smother power delivery. However I do love the td5 it seems like it has more grunt than the puma but I'm sure this is because it is not as smooth.

[Samblers]

Thanks fellas, some useful info.

Hmmm... puma. I guess you can overcome most problems/ shortcomings by chucking more money in the pot [tonguewink]

[PAT303]

Drive a Td5 and then drive a TDCi,the TDCi is better in every way. Pat

[PAT303]

Has anyone on here owned both?

Yep,got a '92 D1 200TDI,a '98 300TDI defender,a '99 Td5 D2 and a '11 TDCi in my driveway as we speak,TDCi eats the rest no contest. Pat

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Bottom line is you won't go far wrong with either aTD5 or 'Puma' (TDCi).

To keep the mrs happy I suspect you'll end up with the Puma.

There are 2 main deals for me:
1. puma air-con is WAY better.
2. Suspension changes to a TD5 is WAY less problematic.

All other points can be considered more or less equal an cosmetic.

So there you are, either keep you happy or the mrs! Choice is yours:)

Sent using Forum Runner

[Scallops]

Solmanic (definitely)/JohnR (I think?) on this forum have had both - send them a PM and ask their opinions - pretty sure both of them will give the Puma the nod - by a country mile. ;)

[Rick Fischer]

Yes. TD5 in Disco and the Ford in the SVX.

TD5 is a good motor, unfortunately it is now an "orphan". As far as I am aware there are some issues and others here will be able to add or subtract.

I understand that full overhauls/rebuilds from Crankshaft up are problematic due to engine design for production. Others here will be more familiar.

Plastic head dowels (which may or may not have been replaced with steel,)

Internal head wear around the injectors valve stems and other places requiring a new head. Mind you prices of heads have dropped significantly, and the design has been significantly modified.

I paid for both of the above.

Alternators are expensive unless imported, exchange units are rare in Oz. Denso are not interested! You will need to carry a full rebuild kit, or alternator from the UK as a spare part. TD5s like all "hot rails" will not go far on just the battery.

Having said that my understanding is that in the transition from Transit to Defender there were teething problems in the earlier Puma Defenders; apart from the sump, there were piston cooling problems which required oil jet modifications, and of course the vacuum pump. If all the SBs have been done this shouldn't be a problem. LRA should be able to supply compliance against the VIN.

The Puma engine is current and will be in various guises carry on into the future.

As to the rest of the Defender, nothing much changed forever except for one piece windscreen and coil springs :) though Puma does have better creature comforts.

As to the kids thing; haven't had to bother with that for over 25 years and you need to get other advice. However, ADRs for child restraint must be met for the "station wagon" perhaps for the 90 4 seat too. Vans Utes etc. would be a different story.

Hope this is helpful.

[Psimpson7]

TD5 is a good motor, unfortunately it is now an "orphan". As far as I am aware there are some issues and others here will be able to add or subtract.

I understand that full overhauls/rebuilds from Crankshaft up are problematic due to engine design for production. Others here will be more familiar.



There is nothing whatsoever hard in a total rebuild on a TD5. It's possibly the easiest engine I have ever worked on. (as long as its not still fitted in a D2 engine bay)

As for the original question I agree with Yorkshire Jon, although would also add that the overall interior is so much better in the newer model

They also have a better range of gearing

[The Cone of Silence]

This is a really useful thread and there are some very qualified people posting which is good to see...these are the same guys who unwittingly helped me make the very same decision a couple of years ago......and I settled on a 2008 Puma.

The decision was partly based on the fact that I'm a beginner to off-roading and the superior gearbox, higher torque and sublime traction control system would be able to help me learn while hiding some of my rookie errors.

Furthermore, the little things that all 'add up' started to become relevant.....the interior is quieter and more comfortable, heating and aircon are improved, the engine is newer, car was still under warranty (just)...and I just had a better feeling about the Puma from behind the wheel.

The issues I've had with the Puma engine have been related to the EGR valve and that will all go away when I get it chipped soon. Everything else has been terrific.

Whatever you decide, you'll find wonderful people throughout this site who are willing to share their knowledge and help you with any questions you might have.

Good luck Sam.

Bobby

[Samblers]

Some excellent info guys, thanks for that.

Hmmm, I can see myself getting sold up here!

I guess going back to my previous comment is that its easy to solve each shortcoming by throwing more and more money in the pot. I would like something that is fit-for-purpose (weekend adventure wagon with kids), and it seems as if either will do except Puma will do it a bit nicer.

This will not be our daily driver around the city by the way, we have a dreary car for that…

If it was just me I’d probably go for early Td5 (or even earlier) and rough it a bit. 20-25k. Happy to live with engine quirks, odd servicing troubles, and live without 4wd technology, fancy interior etc… it’ll do the same thing more or less

I suspect wife/kids will need the decent aircon though (note we are in WA, not Victoria)… in which case 35-40k+ … which is quite a jump up

Hmm…

[Sleepy]

Aircon in my 2001 Defender was much better than my 2005.

I like my Td5 and have had no big dramas. Oil in harness - less than $400 repair by dealer. Cheaper if you are half decent with a spanner and screwdriver.

Puma certainly goes better on the highway......but then again so does a transit van!:p

I reckon you role the dice and take your chances. Either of them could be fine.

[Scallops]

The fam. will most likely prefer the Puma...but hey, you'll love it too. As Pat said, drive a TD5 then jump out and drive a Puma....it's chalk and cheese.

[Sleepy]

....it's chalk and cheese.

.....but don't try writing on a blackboard with cheese!:p

[rick130]

How does the TD5 go with a good VNT and a little tickle up of the ECU compared to the TDCi ? :angel:

[Blknight.aus]

not having driven a puma with a chip in it

Ive driven plenty of chipped td5's and one VNT'd td5 and my SOPDyno says that the VNT doesnt let you make any more power or torque overall but it delivers it in a whole new way.

the td5 has more CC up its sleeve and an extra pot to push the crank round with so paperwork maths says the td5 should be able to be pushed further than the puma

[TimNZ]

From what I've read on the ever reliable internet most of the reputable tuners in the UK still consider the TD5 to be the king of the mountain as far as tuning goes, (for now).

[Rick Fischer]

"and an extra pot to push the crank round with so paperwork maths says the td5 should be able to be pushed further than the puma"

Is formally called "Power Overlap" ie another cylinder firing while one is still on power stroke - is measured in crank angle :)

RF

[rick130]

not having driven a puma with a chip in it

Ive driven plenty of chipped td5's and one VNT'd td5 and my SOPDyno says that the VNT doesnt let you make any more power or torque overall but it delivers it in a whole new way.

the td5 has more CC up its sleeve and an extra pot to push the crank round with so paperwork maths says the td5 should be able to be pushed further than the puma

That's the way I'd look at it too, but I think so far the UK tuners are getting slightly more out of the 2.4 than the TD5 (with VNT)

Uninformed and I backed to backed his stock or slightly de-tuned HS2.8TGV with 3" exhaust against my fuelled up Tdi and outright power was much the same, maybe even a slight advantage to the Tdi and it felt like it possibly revved a little better ? But the TGV had it all over the Tdi below about 1800RPM.
The Tdi had to move a 130 CC too with 255/85's, vs a 110 trayback with 235/85's, so it wasn't comparing apples to apples but an interesting although unscientific little exercise one evening.

I'm seriously thinking a worked over TD5 with a good VNT might be an easier/cheaper re-power for my Tdi than the 4BD1T (as blasphemous as that sounds :angel:)

I just don't think sticking a VNT on a TDi is worth the $, the TD5 has so much more potential and is overall a more robust design.

[rick130]

"and an extra pot to push the crank round with so paperwork maths says the td5 should be able to be pushed further than the puma"

Is formally called "Power Overlap" ie another cylinder firing while one is still on power stroke - is measured in crank angle :)

RF

I think Dave might actually know that Rick ;)

We had a good discussion on the torque impulse vs crank angle of a 4 vs more cylinders on a 4BD1 thread a few weeks back.

[Samblers]

I'm content for a (relatively) modern diesel engine... if it does freeway speeds and meets my (prob not v demanding) off-road requirements, i'll be happy ;)

[Psimpson7]

That's the way I'd look at it too, but I think so far the UK tuners are getting slightly more out of the 2.4 than the TD5 (with VNT)



I'm not conviced on that Rick.

Twisted Performance got 239.5bhp and 510Nm out of their td5 90

[lambrover]

I read that the td5 is getting more power then the puma engine as they can't get the thing to rev any more and that's with a upgraded VNT turbo.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[PAT303]

Sounds easy but a TDCi is a drive away vehicle,the Td5 isn't,I would not work over a Td5 without doing work to the engine so that adds cost,pushing more power through a tired R380 isn't a smart idea either,it doesn't matter if you add bolt on power to a Td5 to get TDCi performance,it's still and old vehicle.I would look at how long you plan to own the vehicle and how much you are prepared to spend on it and then make a choice. Pat

[Psimpson7]

I basically agree with you Pat, and if the choice was late td5 or new Tdci, I would nowadays almost certainly say the Tdci, as the warranty would be worth a lot.

The choice here is late td5 or early Puma and that is a lot harder in my mind, but thats probably becuase I know TD5's and dont really on the Tdci.

Both would be out of warranty.

[Samblers]

I am not considering upgrading power

Upgrading aircon is more of an issue

[Psimpson7]

In that regard buy the Tdci... its miles better!

go and drive both, see what you feel.

[Scallops]

I've got the first Puma in Brisbane and it's still under warranty!

[roverrescue]

"I'm seriously thinking a worked over TD5 with a good VNT might be an easier/cheaper re-power for my Tdi than the 4BD1T (as blasphemous as that sounds )"

That engine swapping palaver is just crazy talk and you know it Rick...

everyone knows you will just keep that 300 plodding along for another 40 years!

S

[Samblers]

As far as the Aircon goes, the Td5 A/C is a joke. Again, cant comment on the Puma A/C.

but for just over a grand, Ive fitted an aftermarket minivan evaporator in the rear & its now by far the best A/C of any vehicle I've ever been in, it has to be expreienced to be believed.

theres a thread on it here somewhere.

I found the thread here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/159715-aftermarket-c-td5-110-wagon.html)

**** :eek:

[rick130]

"I'm seriously thinking a worked over TD5 with a good VNT might be an easier/cheaper re-power for my Tdi than the 4BD1T (as blasphemous as that sounds )"

That engine swapping palaver is just crazy talk and you know it Rick...

everyone knows you will just keep that 300 plodding along for another 40 years!

S

The bloody thing just keeps going, and in the little tests I've done it's pulling as well as it did years ago, regardless of the abuse :o

[Blknight.aus]

in the face of the previous post


I've got the first Puma in Brisbane and it's still under warranty! Given that it was an 08 vehicle that came with a 3 yr warranty that just screams....

why is it still under warranty?

[newhue]

Happy to be proven wrong, but in my reading I haven't found much wrong with the Tdci motor itself. Sure the EGR is an every 10 to 60K lucky dip for replacement, however it can be banished forever with a remap.
Perhaps other parts of the car are more questionable regarding reliability. But others have said they should be sorted by warranties end, and hopefully replaced with reliable parts.

If it is a Tdci you buy, try and get a service and warranty history if possible. I'd try for one from LRA as well as the dealer. I have met a brave sole who purchased a Tdci, checked with the dealer before purchasing and it was great rig. However in a very shot period it went in for issues, and the sad truth of this cars ongoing concerns suddenly became very apparent.
Perhaps this car was made the day before Xmas, or the stripper had arrived but it sure has issues.

[weeds]

in the face of the previous post

Given that it was an 08 vehicle that came with a 3 yr warranty that just screams....

why is it still under warranty?

i thought dans would have been 07 and with a 3 extended warranty

[Scallops]

i thought dans would have been 07 and with a 3 extended warranty

Yep - warranty until October next year. Either way, the OP will be very happy with either choice I suspect. If the budget doesn't run to a Puma - get a TD5 and you'll love it...if you can perhaps afford a Puma but only if you think it's good value for the extra money, test drive one after the other.

[goingbush]

I found the thread here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/159715-aftermarket-c-td5-110-wagon.html)

**** :eek:

Yes, most important to keep Mrs Goingbush happy.

I got the message that the A/C was carp and the interior room was cramped, & why did we sell the Landcruiser was a echo that would not go away. My answers of I can fix this if it breaks & it uses 50% less fuel would only last so long. Every time a JK Jeep went past I got the "oh - I like the look of that" song - (even to the point of If the Rubicon Unlimited wagon came In a Diesel I would have had a look)

The 2 options left to me were Puma or fix the Td5 , you saw the A/C tutorial post.

Hands down the Td5 is now everything we could want, for $1000 Im laughing & could not imagine how the A/C could be any better, And more spacious front seating to boot, happy to meet up with any doubting Thomas's for a demo.

The other difference btwn Puma/Tdci that no one has mentioned is you can not open the front vent flaps under the windscreen on a Puma.

I dont know how you pressurise the interior on dusty roads on a puma but I would be lost without the opening vents of the Td5.

[manic]

ah yes the puma has no front vents :o... for that reason I am out! :D

[Samblers]

Yes i like the front vent idea also.

Last car had quarter-vent windows :cool:

[Scallops]

Vents are overrated! Drive both - see for yourself! Biggest thing for me is zero turbo lag and the only Defy without it is the Puma. Flash it and you are in heaven.

[Blknight.aus]

I'm pretty sure I know of a couple of defenders that have 0 turbo lag as well...

when you pop round Just give me a minute or 2 under your pumas hood and I'll pull the AC clutch connection then we'll see how you rate not having front vents.

[Scallops]

I'm pretty sure I know of a couple of defenders that have 0 turbo lag as well...

when you pop round Just give me a minute or 2 under your pumas hood and I'll pull the AC clutch connection then we'll see how you rate not having front vents.

I already know that answer - I'd hate it! So you aint gettin' the keys to my hood fella... :D But real world scenario...next time I drive the Gunbarrel, I'll be driving a current RR vogue, combined with that lesser known genuine LR spare part called "clinical delusion". So if my AC dies, I'll order a cab. ;)

[Samblers]

So, I'm considering late td5 (i.e. $35k ish) vs. early Puma (i.e. $40K+ ish) for my first defender and my young family... I drove both yesterday, back to back. Well, I drove a new Puma at the dealership as this was all I had at my disposal - I presume the difference between early and new Pumas is not huge (?).

2006 td5 came first, this car i'd had my eye on for a short while was low km and had some extras I wanted but turned out not to be the best example i think (had been a little negelected). Still, driving was good fun - felt suitably rugged and truck-like. Performance was nothing to get excited about, but it did the job and would cruise comfortably at speed (once it got there). Gbox was reasuringly mechanical and clunky, interior was fine by my standards. Aircon I had cranked the whole drive... on a 25deg it managed to keep me (and my legs) comfortable... on a 40deg WA summers day i think my young passengers faces would still melt. Rear seats were basic which i liked, as they folded up neatly and created a lot of load space.

So, to the dealership, and a $55K plain-white 110, vanilla flavour with no sprinkles on top (basic). Difficult to fall in love with.

Wow what a difference. A meaningful one as well... Drive was a LOT more refined, gearbox smooth, interior was pleasing, steering wheel lower with a more car-like driving stance, engine much perkier. Aircon seemed OK, if a little meagre. Rear seats and load space from the td5 i prefered... Puma rear seats seem a little further back?

OK, so this is a 2012 model, but same experience as a 2008 model i presume...?

Overall it left me feeling that with 35k to spend, i'd find another 5-8k and get a Puma even if i had to wait a little while to buy some fruit. I would consider an older, less expensive example of the td5 if I could find one that had been well cared for... but wouldnt spend as much as 35k and it just isnt worth it when this puts you in reach of the Puma.

Fair?

[djam1]

35 K is one expensive TD5 Defender


So, I'm considering late td5 (i.e. $35k ish) vs. early Puma (i.e. $40K+ ish) for my first defender and my young family... I drove both yesterday, back to back. Well, I drove a new Puma at the dealership as this was all I had at my disposal - I presume the difference between early and new Pumas is not huge (?).

2006 td5 came first, this car i'd had my eye on for a short while was low km and had some extras I wanted but turned out not to be the best example i think (had been a little negelected). Still, driving was good fun - felt suitably rugged and truck-like. Performance was nothing to get excited about, but it did the job and would cruise comfortably at speed (once it got there). Gbox was reasuringly mechanical and clunky, interior was fine by my standards. Aircon I had cranked the whole drive... on a 25deg it managed to keep me (and my legs) comfortable... on a 40deg WA summers day i think my young passengers faces would still melt. Rear seats were basic which i liked, as they folded up neatly and created a lot of load space.

So, to the dealership, and a $55K plain-white 110, vanilla flavour with no sprinkles on top (basic). Difficult to fall in love with.

Wow what a difference. A meaningful one as well... Drive was a LOT more refined, gearbox smooth, interior was pleasing, steering wheel lower with a more car-like driving stance, engine much perkier. Aircon seemed OK, if a little meagre. Rear seats and load space from the td5 i prefered... Puma rear seats seem a little further back?

OK, so this is a 2012 model, but same experience as a 2008 model i presume...?

Overall it left me feeling that with 35k to spend, i'd find another 5-8k and get a Puma even if i had to wait a little while to buy some fruit. I would consider an older, less expensive example of the td5 if I could find one that had been well cared for... but wouldnt spend as much as 35k and it just isnt worth it when this puts you in reach of the Puma.

Fair?

[goingbush]

I think you should be able to get a Excellent Td5 with all the fruit for the 30k region, 35grand seems too much, that does put you into Puma territory & that does make more sense.

[rick130]

[snip]

Drive was a LOT more refined, gearbox smooth, interior was pleasing, steering wheel lower with a more car-like driving stance, engine much perkier.

[snip]
Fair?

Luckily you've never tried a Tdi or an Isuzu powered 110.

'Truck like', 'rugged' and 'utilitarian' would be the correct euphemisms, 'refined' would not get a look in :D

[Samblers]

Yeah thats what I was getting at, though from the other direction I guess... i.e. why get a 35k td5 when you can get one for 25k and put yourself outside the Puma temptation range!

[Scallops]

Samblers - the 2012 engine is slightly different (a 2.2 litre version) to what will be in the 2007 model - but yes - the experience you noted in the "drive one then drive the other" test will be the same for an early Puma - and that was just what I expected you to discover. They are chalk and cheese.

Either are good vehicles. You'll end up loving either - but you now know how different a Puma is to a Td5 and you need to decide if it warrants extra cash. It sure does to me.

And as above - a 2006 35K Td5 is expensive. It would need to be loaded with extras and be perfect.

[Samblers]

Thanks fellas.

Hmm, so now its early td5 vs early puma ... :rolleyes:

More of a philosophical question for me and SHMBO I think...

[goingbush]

Thanks fellas.

Hmm, so now its early td5 vs early puma ... :rolleyes:

More of a philosophical question for me and SHMBO I think...


Theres a good 2002 one on ebay.
Bonus is he told me it has a Salisbury AND Traction Control - they are few & far btwn, If I was in the market I'd be on a plane (one way ticket) to have a look.

Land Rover Defender 110 Td5 (4x4) (2002) 4D Wagon 5 SP Manual 4x4 (2.5L -... | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170927671113#ht_500wt_1156)

pre 2002 had Salisbury but no TC post 2002 (inc Puma) have weaker P38 rear diff but do have TC

[Blknight.aus]

during the honey period (the end of eu2 spec engine in the my02 build spec) after they did the tombraider editions you could get them with sals and TC... at the end of the run a very few had the sals and the EU3 engine As soon as you have the EU3 in a 110 then you get TC and ABS.

That is essentially the holy grail of the defender a relatively simple electronic diesel engine that can be fixed without plugging a computer into it if you knew it well enough with the toughest diff available from factory.

[JohnR]

:eek:Howdy,

I have had both, a 2002 TD5 110 and currently a 2007 Puma 110. I will not hang on the TD5 as it was a brilliant vehicle and the engine when it came out was fantastic. But that was a generation ago. I will say that the TDCi engine is amazing! very tourqy and when coupled with the 6 speed it makes for some excellent gear ratio's which (without an under drive (Pete)) the TD5 falls short both with a higher ratioed 1st gear and a lower ratioed final gear. They both have traction control but the Puma is way more advanced and works noticably better.

The TDCi engine has been out long enough now that there are plenty of chips, mods and knowledge on it now so nothing to be scared of. I have 126,000kms on mine and it has NEVER missed a beat.

The interior is WAY superior than the TD5, Air-con, seats and much better sound deadening. These are all important with a family and it goes a long way on long trips. I know I hop out fresher that a friend in his TD5 after a long drive.

We have 3 little kiddies in car seats and the extra points cost us $395 fully engineered. With no bar so we can still drop the seats if needed. Also the Mulgo double glove box ROCKS with little kids, it gives you tonnes of extra storage for all the junk you "need" with kiddies.:eek:

Make your decision but which ever way you go you are going to end up with a awesome vehicle :D

Cheers,

[goingbush]

JohnR just bought up another point about the Td5

I am also sometimes wanting for a lower 1st gear,
1st Gear high range is just not low enough to pull away from a stop on a hill when towing the caravan, even traffic lights on an incline. Often find myself selecting low range to take off & then drop back into high once moving. Quite annoying really. From all accounts Puma does not suffer from this.

Apart from the crappy A/C that is the only other thing I dont like about the Td5.

[rick130]

JohnR just bought up another point about the Td5

I am also sometimes wanting for a lower 1st gear,
1st Gear high range is just not low enough to pull away from a stop on a hill when towing the caravan, even traffic lights on an incline. Often find myself selecting low range to take off & then drop back into high once moving. Quite annoying really. From all accounts Puma does not suffer from this.

Apart from the crappy A/C that is the only other thing I dont like about the Td5.

That's always been the biggest problem with the R380 regardless of the engine in front of it, second/low starts when towing are the norm. [edit] except the 4BD1Ti'm guessing

[Blknight.aus]

the budgets $35K?

For $30K its not impossible to find a td5 that will lunch a $35K puma.

do you know how much AC you can get your hands on for $5k?

And you still get front vents and an interior that it doesnt matter if the kids throw up in it.

and I suspect that JohnR may be stretching the truth about his puma, I remember it loosing a sway bar and doing the vac pump seal on the same trip... Same trip I killed an injector on.

[Sleepy]

You should be able to find a well sorted Td5 with lots of life left for $25-$30K.

I'd guess you'd be paying $10 to $15K more for a similarly equipped Puma.

I like the Puma's but haven't been able to justify the money required to update my quite capable Td5.

I'm saving my $$$ for the next gen Defender.
V6 Diesel, Automatic, Adjustable seats, wider cabin, good wipers, HDC, ETC,
ABS and LOOS. (As Darryl Kerrigan would say, "Tell him he's dreaming!")

[goingbush]

<snip>

I'm saving my $$$ for the next gen Defender.
V6 Diesel, Automatic, Adjustable seats, wider cabin, good wipers, HDC, ETC,
ABS and LOOS. (As Darryl Kerrigan would say, "Tell him he's dreaming!")

AND Opening front vents (but I'll have the Manual thanks)


.

[Samblers]

do you know how much AC you can get your hands on for $5k?


Nope. Would love to hear!

Despite all the can-of-worms reading ive done I still do not know what the a/c 'solution' is in the td5, regardless of cost. Can the factory setup be ripped out and replaced by something decent?

I dont feel capable of doing what goingbush did to his td5 a/c myself.

[Samblers]

whilst i'm at it... are there good/bad years from the td5 era?

[Blknight.aus]

Nope. Would love to hear!

Despite all the can-of-worms reading ive done I still do not know what the a/c 'solution' is in the td5, regardless of cost. Can the factory setup be ripped out and replaced by something decent?

I dont feel capable of doing what goingbush did to his td5 a/c myself.

its relatively easy to simply shift the existing evaporator into the roof replumb down the bpillar and then run new lines.

but in all seriousness, a simple dividing sheet down behind the second row seats and removing the left of center dash vent cools them well enough...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/33659-fixing-td5-d110-aircon.html

thats how I did it


whilst i'm at it... are there good/bad years from the td5 era?

yep...

99/00 can be a bit questionable but by now if they havent gone foom they are unlikely to if you stay on top of maintenance this does guarantee getting the sals in the deefer tho so its a pretty close call. there were some minor teething problems in the eu2/eu3 (02-03) swap over with some very minor revsions in the cooling system that some hack mechanics just bodge their way around if they get the wrong parts and usually the vehicle lasts for normal work but throws a hissy if you work it hard.

other than that mid-late 03-07 is going to be the pick of the bunch unless you want a sals. (then you just go get one and fit it up)

to be fair on the p38 diff that replaced the sals, I was less than mechanically sympathetic to mine and it held up well.

[Blknight.aus]

I already know that answer - I'd hate it! So you aint gettin' the keys to my hood fella... :D But real world scenario...next time I drive the Gunbarrel, I'll be driving a current RR vogue, combined with that lesser known genuine LR spare part called "clinical delusion". So if my AC dies, I'll order a cab. ;)

betcha you'd drive the canning in matilda though.

[newhue]

betcha you'd drive the canning in matilda though.

funny you say that Dave, I wouldn't.
I drove the series on the weekend with vents open, door top off, and rear window wide open and it was hot. Yes plenty of air flow but when it hot it's hot. Cant see what the what all fuss over vents are, go air con any day.
Same with dust, air con on, windows up, very little dust.

[rick130]

funny you say that Dave, I wouldn't.
I drove the series on the weekend with vents open, door top off, and rear window wide open and it was hot. Yes plenty of air flow but when it hot it's hot. Cant see what the what all fuss over vents are, go air con any day.
Same with dust, air con on, windows up, very little dust.

I ripped the a/c totally out of the Deefer three months ago, revelling in the increased cabin space. :D

But I am a little crazy :woot:

[Rick Fischer]

Nope. Would love to hear!

Despite all the can-of-worms reading ive done I still do not know what the a/c 'solution' is in the td5, regardless of cost. Can the factory setup be ripped out and replaced by something decent?

I dont feel capable of doing what goingbush did to his td5 a/c myself.


Going back a fairly long way and I may be incorrect, but I recall the TD5 Defender air-conditioning system was originally designed and built here in Australia and was done as part of the original Pirente Project because the pommy one couldn't hack it at all, and was crappy

It was done in Brisbane and I also recall being told by one of those LRA travelling specialists that initially the Defenders arrived in Oz sans a/c and these were installed in Brisbane before distribution around Australia.

Suspect that if this is the case then getting anything "really improved" for pre "new dash arrangement", "no vents" may be wishful thinking.

Cheers
RF

[rick130]

Going back a fairly long way and I may be incorrect, but I recall the TD5 Defender air-conditioning system was originally designed and built here in Australia and was done as part of the original Pirente Project because the pommy one couldn't hack it at all, and was crappy

It was done in Brisbane and I also recall being told by one of those LRA travelling specialists that initially the Defenders arrived in Oz sans a/c and these were installed in Brisbane before distribution around Australia.

Suspect that if this is the case then getting anything "really improved" for pre "new dash arrangement", "no vents" may be wishful thinking.

Cheers
RF

The Tdi and TD5 units were designed and built by AMC (no longer in business) using mostly off the shelf Sanden parts.

It eats up a lot of cabin space, particularly the passenger footwell and it's performance is ordinary except in a truck cab ute.

The condenser tends to restrict lot of airflow through the radiator too, its fin pitch is too tight IMO.

[Scallops]

betcha you'd drive the canning in matilda though.

:D


funny you say that Dave, I wouldn't.
....

Jason - Dave is probably right. Just like Rick, I'm a little bit mad. ;)

[Samblers]

its relatively easy to simply shift the existing evaporator into the roof replumb down the bpillar and then run new lines.


Into the roof or onto the roof...?


but in all seriousness, a simple dividing sheet down behind the second row seats and removing the left of center dash vent cools them well enough... [/url]


Whats the deal with the left of centre dash vent? Read the thread, didnt explain

Cheers

[BilboBoggles]

Has anyone on here owned both?
I currently have both a 2003 TD5 110 and a 2009 PUMA. For a young family the PUMA is a better option:

1 - The A/C is much better
2 - There is an option of 7 full size seats
3 - The middle row seats are full height and have headrests so are more comfortable and safer for the kids.
3 - The middle seat of the middle row has a full lap sash belt instead of jsut a lap belt.
5 - There is MORE leg room in the back of the PUMA, the middle/rear seat is about 4 inches further back.
6 - The rear tub has a steel frame which makes it legal to use simple bolt in child restraints, no need for a bar.
7 - It's easier to fit three child seats in a PUMA as the middle row is further back.


After just spending >$5k on a few fixes on the TD5, I can say that as they wear a there are some damned expensive bits on them (Harmonic Balancer, Flywheel.) So I'd suggest maintenance between the two should be comparable. A stock Td5 is a slug compared to a stock PUMA, the PUMA will have enough power to be a pleasure to drive, a stock TD5 is a lethargic lump compared. You can tune a TD5 and get some mind blowing power out of it... BUT that costs money and perhaps has other onflowing consequences.

From a purists point of view I'd argue the TD5 had some better quality parts, and was a little better put together. But practically these points don't make much difference.

As much as I hate to say it - the PUMA is a better defender.

[Samblers]

Thanks Billbo

Heart says tdi or td5 with some mods/accessories, spend the saved cash on more fruit, camping gear etc
Head says Puma, reality of life in a desert city and with little kids. Spend my weekends driving it rather than underneath it…

After all the advice given and the couple of test-drives I’ll probably go with the head this time.

Cheers :BigThumb:

[Blknight.aus]

Into the roof or onto the roof...?



Whats the deal with the left of centre dash vent? Read the thread, didnt explain

Cheers

into the roof, specifically underslung from it between the seat rows, its essentially little more than a replumb and rewire with Some custom fabrication required for shrouds.

theres 4 vents in the td5 ac duct take out the one on the passengers side nearest the trans tunnel. this throws more air down the back and helps prevent recirculation in the passengers footwell which makes the AC jtuink its colder than it is and winds the 1refrigerant flow rate back.

[manic]

As much as I hate to say it - the PUMA is a better defender.

And here I am thinking

more comfort = less defender
more luxury = less defender
enhanced passenger safety = less defender

If you want something of the defender lineage you should be using it to venture out into the unknown equipped with a feast of tinned spam and a swiss army knife. You should be happy whistling through baron landscapes unknown to the world with your windows wound down and the wind in your hair.

If you want a 4x4 with higher priorities on comfort and passenger safety then you have the Discovery. If you are in need of real luxury you have the Range Rover. There are even Freelanders and Evoques for the ladies!
:wasntme:


I'm not Puma bashing, evidently it is a more civilised car... but this to me does not make it a better Defender.

[Benny_IIA]

And here I am thinking

more comfort = less defender
more luxury = less defender
enhanced passenger safety = less defender

If you want something of the defender lineage you should be using it to venture out into the unknown equipped with a feast of tinned spam and a swiss army knife. You should be happy whistling through baron landscapes unknown to the world with your windows wound down and the wind in your hair.

If you want a 4x4 with higher priorities on comfort and passenger safety then you have the Discovery. If you are in need of real luxury you have the Range Rover. There are even Freelanders and Evoques for the ladies!
:wasntme:


I'm not Puma bashing, evidently it is a more civilised car... but this to me does not make it a better Defender.


Does thant mean I series is more Defender then a defender?

[Blknight.aus]

yes, yes it does.

[Sleepy]

I think your buying the wrong vehicle.

A Disco 3 will cover most (all?) of your offroad requirements and a helluva lot "nicer" than any Defender. (Geez dare I say it , other brands are "nicer" too.)
But many Defender drivers aren't after "nice".

Bottom line for me (in you position) would be money. Your looking at about 20 Grand for 1 gear, nicer interior, and slightly more capability - although most people would rarely explore that gap in capability.

I like Puma's but not worth (IMHO) the upgrade.(for me)

So I think your head heart comment is around the wrong way.:angel:




(Manic, watch out!, Julia will getya with that "ladies" comment!!):p

[BilboBoggles]

And here I am thinking

more comfort = less defender
more luxury = less defender
enhanced passenger safety = less defender

If you want something of the defender lineage you should be using it to venture out into the unknown equipped with a feast of tinned spam and a swiss army knife. You should be happy whistling through baron landscapes unknown to the world with your windows wound down and the wind in your hair.
but this to me does not make it a better Defender.

The choice here is between a TD5 and a PUMA. So out of those two choices I vote for the PUMA being the better defender. Neither a TD5 or a PUMA are what you describe or think of as a Defender - and in fact I'd reckon the character you are talking about applies to the older series land rovers, rather than a defender. The Series 2A perhaps is the closest thing you'll get to what you describe, a true indestructible, uncomfortable, reliable, brain numbingly loud a proper Land Rover, but it's not a defender.

Out of the land rovers I have at the moment, 67 and 71 (pre and post ridiculous headlights) s2a 109", Series 3 109", Series 2a 88", A few 2 door range rovers, a 4 door range rover, a 110 TD5 Defender,a 110 PUMA Defender. I reckon the best "Defender" is in fact the old Pre 86 Range Rover, best axle articulation/suspension by far, no electronics, no electric windows, proper Land Rover construction etc etc. But the closest thing they make to that now is the Defender.

And once you are in a Defender there is no going back. I sold a Discovery to buy the PUMA defender. No comparison. The Discovery has no character. A Defender has oodles of character (good and bad).

[Blknight.aus]

The Series 2A perhaps is the closest thing you'll get to what you describe, a true indestructible, uncomfortable, reliable, brain numbingly loud a proper Land Rover, but it's not a defender.


Clearly you've never driven a perentie hard top long distances.

[manic]

The choice here is between a TD5 and a PUMA. So out of those two choices I vote for the PUMA being the better defender.

Ah much clearer... I find this acceptable. :)



Does thant mean I series is more Defender then a defender?
The defender is a series of the series so perhaps it is :D

[Samblers]

Nup, its gotta be a defender, even if it has to be the soft option (Puma)…

[weeds]

I would take most interest of those that have owned both.......plenty of non puma owner that seem to experts

[spudboy]

I've got both. Love them both.

PUMA is altogether better in most areas. Gearbox has a lower 1st and a higher top gear. Aircon. Heating. Cabin ambience. Sound system (!!) and you can actually hear it at 110Km/h.

Things I miss are the front flaps for fresh air, and even though it has a more modern engine, it doesn't get any better milage than the TD5. That's about it I think.


BTW - my TD5 has a cassette player as a a sound system.... and the OE system in the PUMA rates about 3 out of 10

[Samblers]

... and the OE system in the PUMA rates about 3 out of 10

That’s fine, the noise coming out of the wife usually rates about 1.5/10
:rolleyes:

[iClick]

What a great thread to read - I'm in a similar position to the OP. My decision between a TD5 and Puma comes down to reliability when faced with questionable fuel.

I'll be taking my family overland to the UK in five years time. We're looking at a 130 Defender and the question now is what engine will be the most reliable and easy for me to service with my limited skills in an emergency.

I spoke with a Land Rover expert today and the advice I was given was to avoid all Common Rail Diesel engines as a dose of bad fuel may stop them in their tracks with repairs being costly and inconvenient. With older engines, the same fuel may take a toll on the engine, but it should be serviceable enough to get out of trouble.

I'd be interested in the opinions of others here, should I discount the Puma engine based on the chance I'll face some dodgy fuel along our trek overland?

[manic]

What a great thread to read - I'm in a similar position to the OP. My decision between a TD5 and Puma comes down to reliability when faced with questionable fuel.

I'll be taking my family overland to the UK in five years time. We're looking at a 130 Defender and the question now is what engine will be the most reliable and easy for me to service with my limited skills in an emergency.

I spoke with a Land Rover expert today and the advice I was given was to avoid all Common Rail Diesel engines as a dose of bad fuel may stop them in their tracks with repairs being costly and inconvenient. With older engines, the same fuel may take a toll on the engine, but it should be serviceable enough to get out of trouble.

I'd be interested in the opinions of others here, should I discount the Puma engine based on the chance I'll face some dodgy fuel along our trek overland?


td5 + puma , both common rail. You can put a ton of water traps and a water alarm on your fuel line if you want to be super careful. So no the possibility of bad fuel does not rule out a td5 or puma.

[rick130]

td5 + puma , both common rail. You can put a ton of water traps and a water alarm on your fuel line if you want to be super careful. So no the possibility of bad fuel does not rule out a td5 or puma.


Umm, no.

TDci = common rail (fuel rail fuel pressure generated by a high pressure electric pump)

TD5 = unit injector (fuel pressure is generated individually for each cylinder mechanically in the injector by a plunger working off a cam lobe)

But yes, both are high pressure injection compared to a mechanical inline or rotary pump diesel.

[iClick]

td5 + puma , both common rail. You can put a ton of water traps and a water alarm on your fuel line if you want to be super careful. So no the possibility of bad fuel does not rule out a td5 or puma.

Aside from water, what about other contaminants that can be found in questionable fuel that can be found in remote parts of the world - solvents, waxes and other undesirable things that modern motors don't like? Will dual filtration and water trap/alarms be enough to give peace of mind?

The quandary I have is if I choose a 300tdi or TD5 engine for it's simplicity and reliability - what will the rest of the vehicle be like mechanically given I would have close to 200,000 km clocked up by the time we left (five years from now)

I see my options as - buy used Td5 with 100,000km(ish) on the clock now and spend the next few years maintains and kitting it out, or put aside savings to my a new vehicle closer to the trip and take fuel cleaning measures to ensure a safe and reliable trip with a new car.

[spudboy]

You can definitely drive around the world in a PUMA. I posted a link a few weeks ago about a Victorian bloke who took his fairly bog standard PUMA and drove it from Australia to Europe, through a lot of 'dodgy' countries. He did 20,000 KMs without any drama at all.

A quick search should find the link, and you can read how he got on.

[spudboy]

Found the link: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/162538-blog-travelling-sth-africa-europe-puma.html

Another thought - if you take a new car overseas, think about how much the Carnet will cost. An older car will be hugely cheaper from that point of view.

Also, we just had an English couple stying with us on the weekend (David & Jayne from LissyBus.com) and they are travelling with no comprehensive insurance because it is almost impossible to get internationally. An older vehicle means less invested and less to lose if it is stolen or written off.

Cheers
David

[Guzziman]

Had the same dillema & eventually bought a very late 06 model TD5 about 6 months ago.

Through a yard (not private sale) it was $23.5k + my old 01 Falcon (worth 2k at best). 12months rego, all transfer duty etc. I just drove it out of the yard!
Now I know I got a good deal, but they are out there when you look.
My 23.5k got me a vehicle that looks as new with 100k on the clock - seriously it has no marks, dents, anything inside or out. It has never been off road (until I got it), had no options except bullbar, side steps & unusually cruise control.

Don't believe you can buy a good one at that? The boys at MR have looked over it & said its one of the best 06's they've seen, it looks new underneath as well.
With all the money I've saved I've been able to fit a Hannibal Rack with awnings on passenger side & the back as well as an LRA 127ltr fuel tank.
Its going into MR in 2 weeks time for a dual battery system, snorkel, some driving lights & ecu upgrade.
Only other mods I am likely to look at are a rear locking diff & maybe some suspension upgrades both a fair way off.

In the time I've had it all thats been done other than regular servicing is to replace the injector harness (I suspect thats why the owner sold it) - it ran like a pig when I bought it, which helped bash the price down. Oil in the harness was a sub $300 fix at MR & now it is perfect. The 120k service is a big one (worth remembering if your choice has not had it done & is getting near the mark).

The big bonus with the TD5 is that at 110kph I can't hear the wife over the engine noise - it is a tad noisy, but it is a Defender.
My 7 & 9 year old Kids in the back whinged about the aircon, but a $10 fix with some pool hose plugged into the LHS vent and routed between the passenger seat and console sorted that on the last 35deg day. If it gets to 40deg & they whinge, I'll sprinkle a little concrete dust over them & tell them to harden up (as kids we had vinyl seats in the HQ & window winders. Air-con, what was that? I think we turned out ok? didn't we???)

Cleaning is remarkably easy - spilt coffee (wife), projectile vomit (7 year old) & plenty of sand & mud already. Its the easiest to clean vehicle for kids imaginable.
1 word of advice - buy the best you can with a full service history & be happy with your choice.

P.S. I love my air vents on the TD5
P.S. 2 - a mate has a PUMA and loves it, the build quality on the TD5 looks a fair bit better to both of us, but maybe thats a one off thing??? I'm not sure...........

[Samblers]

Good read Guzziman! Sounds like you got an awesome deal.

My Puma arrived on Monday! Love it. Would love vents also but c'est la vie

Cheers :cool:

[Guzziman]

Great that you found one - I'm fairly sure you'll love it :)

[djam1]

Splash out and contact Pete Bell and get a VNT you will NOT be disappointed.
This is by far the best upgrade I have done in terms of performance, I hardly have to go
over 2500 RPM to do anything apart from cruise on the open road.
Looks like once I paid the import tax it was a little over $1700 AUD delivered to me in an isolated location

Very impressed