2000 Def 110 ABS/braking problem

[Defendozer]

Hi all,

A mate of my'n very recently purchased a 2000 model Def 110 and is totally thrilled with it! Yesterday however, he had a little accident and a very lucky escape, this is what happened...
He was driving up a steep hill in first gear low range, there was no ruts, washed out areas or rocks etc, it was sub rainforest so just a lot of slippery leaf mulch and whatever.
He got a fair way up but then lost traction and had to stop to put it in difflock but as he pushed in the clutch and brake as you do the brakes just didn't work?..
On went the handbrake but was already moving so just kept going backwards, went off the bank down through the bush until the rear chassis member hit a fallen tree.
Very luckily no one was hurt and the only damage was some scratches and a big dent in the rear right chassis, a very happy ending!

So my question is, what could have been wrong with the brakes?? It has just been driven up from Tasmania to the Mid North Coast NSW with no problems at all, the brakes have been totally normal. I'm at a loss as to why!! Do the early TD5's have any common problems with the ABS units?? They are fine again now, just didn't work that one time on the hill:mad:

Any ideas anyone??? Thanks in advance:)

[goingbush]

Scary ride.

Sounds more like a traction issue rather than as brake problem. Wrong tyres / incorrect pressures for the terrain.

Brakes work in reverse but ABS dosent function in Reverse

Also he should have had the diff lock in from the beginning,
you don't put it in once you cant go any further. But you dont have to stop to put in in either, just put it in and out on the move.

[Symo]

Ummm if I can ask, why did he not have the CDL in before he started his climb and if it was not in why stop to put it in - you can activate on the fly.

Secondly are you sure the brakes failed. Slipping down a hill may be a consequence of many things - breaks being the least suspect. What tyres did he have at what pressure? How steap was the hill? Did the car steer at all as it slid (locked breaks = no steering)

do the breaks perform OK on the road now?

Its hard to say - not having been there to see it for my self and going by whats described here I would say the car is fine..... With respect - maybe a 4wd couse would help - none of us are too old or wise to learn more.

[steveG]

Glad your mate is OK, and hope the car is too. I know of another member on here that popped out of low range in a similar situation, and was stopped by a tree as he went backwards. Unfortunately it was a write-off as the impact was on the end of one of the chassis rails and twisted it.

As goingbush and Symo have already said it sounds more like a traction issue than brakes. One of the advantages of having the CDL engaged is that the back axle and front axle are locked together, so from a braking perspective its impossible to lock the brakes on one axle and have the the other axle still rotating.
Sounds like a dumb statement, but in practice what it means is that without the CDL engaged its easy to lock the front wheels on steep hills with low traction. The front has little weight, but most of the braking force (by design), so as you apply the brakes there initially isn't much braking on the rear, and the car trys to hold mainly on the front tyres. If there's not enough traction the fronts lock, you start to slide back.
Instinctively you apply more brakes to try and get the car to hold but you are already moving, so you end up just locking up the rears too.
Now sliding backwards with all wheels locked and no steering.
Locked wheels have less traction than unlocked.
At this stage, unless you are already in reverse and have the knowledge and training/experience to release the brakes and apply throttle instead then its all over until you hit something or reach the bottom of the hill.
Watch a non-CDL D2 try and reverse down a moderately steep/slippery slope and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Steve

[djam1]

As the other guys said DON'T climb hills without the diff lock engaged you are asking for trouble both mechanical and other.
As Don said ABS doesn't work in reverse so I would doubt if that is the issue but I do recall a couple of years ago a video on Youtube where what you are talking about happened.
Everyone put it down to the driver not knowing what he was doing but he was adamant that the car did it on its own.
I have a similar car and have never had a hint of it

[Defendozer]

Scary ride.

Sounds more like a traction issue rather than as brake problem. Wrong tyres / incorrect pressures for the terrain.

Brakes work in reverse but ABS dosent function in Reverse

Also he should have had the diff lock in from the beginning,
you don't put it in once you cant go any further. But you dont have to stop to put in in either, just put it in and out on the move.

Ummm if I can ask, why did he not have the CDL in before he started his climb and if it was not in why stop to put it in - you can activate on the fly.

Secondly are you sure the brakes failed. Slipping down a hill may be a consequence of many things - breaks being the least suspect. What tyres did he have at what pressure? How steap was the hill? Did the car steer at all as it slid (locked breaks = no steering)

do the breaks perform OK on the road now?

Its hard to say - not having been there to see it for my self and going by whats described here I would say the car is fine..... With respect - maybe a 4wd couse would help - none of us are too old or wise to learn more. Sorry should have said, I wasn't actually there so am just saying what I know. I was meant to be there but had to cut my holiday short and fly back last week to Tassie for a job interview:(
I just rang him then to ask him in more detail what happened.. Apparently the brakes did actually stop the car and worked for a few seconds but then gave way, he pumped the brakes a few times but nothing happened and the steering was working.
Its not got anything to do with traction control does it? Do the early TD5's even have it? The TC light comes on with the ignition and then turns off like normal. I'm really not very familiar with TD5's!
Any and all ideas welcome:)

And I will certainly be recommending he takes a few 4wd courses before doing any more damage. Its just a pity I wasn't there as I have a lot more offroad driving experience then any of them do.
Also the fact the that the brakes are working fine now makes me think it was a driving fault, or an electrical problem??? And he didn't have the CDL engaged first because of inexperience:o

[Defendozer]

Glad your mate is OK, and hope the car is too. I know of another member on here that popped out of low range in a similar situation, and was stopped by a tree as he went backwards. Unfortunately it was a write-off as the impact was on the end of one of the chassis rails and twisted it.

As goingbush and Symo have already said it sounds more like a traction issue than brakes. One of the advantages of having the CDL engaged is that the back axle and front axle are locked together, so from a braking perspective its impossible to lock the brakes on one axle and have the the other axle still rotating.
Sounds like a dumb statement, but in practice what it means is that without the CDL engaged its easy to lock the front wheels on steep hills with low traction. The front has little weight, but most of the braking force (by design), so as you apply the brakes there initially isn't much braking on the rear, and the car trys to hold mainly on the front tyres. If there's not enough traction the fronts lock, you start to slide back.
Instinctively you apply more brakes to try and get the car to hold but you are already moving, so you end up just locking up the rears too.
Now sliding backwards with all wheels locked and no steering.
Locked wheels have less traction than unlocked.
At this stage, unless you are already in reverse and have the knowledge and training/experience to release the brakes and apply throttle instead then its all over until you hit something or reach the bottom of the hill.
Watch a non-CDL D2 try and reverse down a moderately steep/slippery slope and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Steve
That makes total sense, thanks for that.
Just talking to my older brother and he reckons driver fault is the most likely cause.
Also when in a situation like that everything happens so fast you can very easily miss details, it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't notice how well the steering was working at the time!

[Symo]

Thanks for sharing Defendozer. Its all good and we all make mistakes and get into strife (shouldnt admit this but a am getting into a habbit of locking front and rear diff and forgetting the CDL too - my son often has to remind me - its an age thing I fear)

The main thing is your mate is ok and the car isnt it too bad shape either.

4WD courses not only help with your skill they are fun. Im not sure whats available in Tas but 4WD Vic run some great couses as do many of the 4WD clubs here. The club im in have some great couses and I have been lucky enough to do most of them... Sure you learn stuff but bugger that... I do them for the fun..... :angel:

[Defendozer]

Thanks for sharing Defendozer. Its all good and we all make mistakes and get into strife (shouldnt admit this but a am getting into a habbit of locking front and rear diff and forgetting the CDL too - my son often has to remind me - its an age thing I fear)

The main thing is your mate is ok and the car isnt it too bad shape either.

4WD courses not only help with your skill they are fun. Im not sure whats available in Tas but 4WD Vic run some great couses as do many of the 4WD clubs here. The club im in have some great couses and I have been lucky enough to do most of them... Sure you learn stuff but bugger that... I do them for the fun..... :angel:
Haha its like my Dad, he almost always forgets that his Def has a fifth gear:eek:

I'll ring my mate again later today and get him to tell me EXACTLY what happened, he seems to think that it is a problem somewhere but being new to LR ownership I guess he is not really used to their little habits etc;)
Inexperience doesn't help either!

I have been meaning to join a 4wd club, just haven't got around to it yet.
Used to have my older brother to go 4wheeling with but he now lives in Melbourne:(

Thanks for the info, I will pass on what you've all said to my mate. He has definitely learnt a few lessens!

[110 Pete]

Hey Remo,

Sounds like driver error;) Sounds like Angus must have panicked and just jammed on the brakes thinking that it would hold then must have been quite slippery under the leaves. Defenders are very biased on the front brakes on slippery hills and will lock and just slide until you relase the brake (Obvioulsy).

Regarding the ABS, It only works at speed as the computer modulates the braking and quickly engages and disengages the brake so as not to lock up. ABS would not have worked in this situation as the vehicle would have not been moving at a great enough speed.

Oh and if there are any brake problems ABS light will come on. There are warning lights for a reason

I definitely Agree with SteveG and Symo. I've had this situation before (On purpose), I made it happen and knew how to save it due to my training.

All said, I hope he learnt a leason and gets some more experience! :)

Cheers

Pete

P.S. It was good to meet and I hope I provided you with some entertainment :cool:;):angel::wasntme: