LA

[Scallops]

"Lance Armstrong has no place in cycling and he deserves to be forgotten in cycling." - UCI president, Pat McQuaid. Discuss.

(Read more: UCI agrees to strip Armstrong of titles (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/sport/cycling/uci-agrees-to-strip-armstrong-of-titles-20121022-281uc.html#ixzz2A4E8PxrU))

[Scallops]

...I'll kick it off. I think we need to distinguish between what LA did on the bike (and off it in the team bus :D) and what he has done for cancer research. Seems this is the take of his former sponsors, too. These sponsors have stuck with the Livestrong foundation on the proviso that LA resigns from the board and relinquish any control over the body. He has done so.

[rick130]

Although from a little I've read over the last few weeks it can be asked what has Livestrong done too other than help raise awareness ?

It doesn't appear a lot of funds have actually been funnelled into research ?

[Scallops]

That's a good point, Rick. I really hadn't considered if the Livestrong foundation actually represent an efficient use of research dollars....anyone else have an opinion or info on that?

[boofdtl]

I just hope that people dont forget the good things he has done.
Yes he has made a big stuff up but has done heaps of good things as well i dont like drugs or have the time for people on them..
LA time to pay for your mistakes and do it like a man.............

[rick130]

I also forgot to add that Livestrong has been a convenient foil for LA too.

Call me a cynic if you will, but an organisation like that can help deflect a lot..... :angel:

I did love watching the tours he raced, the imperial tactics of the USPS team and the way he demolished the opposition was amazing, although I was usually cheering the opposition like Jan Ullrich, et all (although I never really cared for il Pirata/Marco Pantani too much, but loved the way he climbed) and yes, they were all on the juice too......

[Scallops]

I just hope that people dont forget the good things he has done.
Yes he has made a big stuff up but has done heaps of good things as well i dont like drugs or have the time for people on them..
LA time to pay for your mistakes and do it like a man.............

Yeah, that's what I was getting at too in my 2nd reply above. Even if it's only that he has encouraged many to get on a bike and take up cycling, that is a huge positive.

[Eevo]

wow
for a man who never failed a drug test

i have zero faith in the cycling community now


im not saying he's innocent. im just not seeing any real evidence against him
i see 1 failed drug test over how many years. and that drug test doesnt positively identify anything, or done to correct proceedure. i see a lot of statements that finger point to each other. "i got caught, cant have my medal so i'll try and take other down too. if i cant have it, noone can. i cant prove they were cheating but just trust me, i know they were".

if this was in a criminal court, would it stand up? i dont think so

i'll be the first to admit i have little interest in cycling. its the allegations and process i find interesting.

i feel like they keep throwing it accusations about until they find something that sticks. hence why i called it a witch hunt.

they investigated, didnt find anything, but lets keep investigating, lets keep pushing and manipulating until we can make the evidence fit.

[Scallops]

wow
for a man who never failed a drug test

i have zero faith in the cycling community now


im not saying he's innocent. im just not seeing any real evidence against him
i see 1 failed drug test over how many years. and that drug test doesnt positively identify anything, or done to correct procedure. i see a lot of statements that finger point to each other. "i got caught, cant have my medal so i'll try and take other down too. if i cant have it, noone can. i cant prove they were cheating but just trust me, i know they were".

if this was in a criminal court, would it stand up? i dont think so

i'll be the first to admit i have little interest in cycling. its the allegations and process i find interesting.

i feel like they keep throwing it accusations about until they find something that sticks. hence why i called it a witch hunt.

they investigated, didnt find anything, but lets keep investigating, lets keep pushing and manipulating until we can make the evidence fit.

Never failing a drug test and not being guilty of taking drugs in another thing. As is the very question of "never failing a drug test'. Perhaps you should read, at least, a condensed version of the allegations, especially as you admit to not having seen any real evidence against him. Do you seriously believe USADA and the UCI would strip an athlete of 7 Tours and all results over the best part of a decade without unequivocal evidence?. LA did fail a drug test for cortisone, and has also been shown by genuine scientific lab results to have tested positive to EPO. The document covering the allegations explain how he avoided being busted in both cases. And it is underhand. The doctor who backdated prescriptions in this case has been prosecuted. It also details how LA's team managed to circumvent testing regimes for years. For those who have been closely associated with cycling, these revelations are somewhat less surprising.

As for standing up in a court of law - I think you will find this question proven one way or the other in the very near future. All the legal advice tends to suggest he'll go down when it does. Sponsors, race organisers - even the US government are very likely to line up to prosecute LA. Stay tuned.

[Eevo]

Never failing a drug test and not being guilty of taking drugs in another thing. As is the very question of "never failing a drug test'. Perhaps you should read, at least, a condensed version of the allegations, especially as you admit to not having seen any real evidence against him.im not saying he didnt take PED, im saying the evidence doesnt support it


Do you seriously believe USADA and the UCI would strip an athlete of 7 Tours and all results over the best part of a decade without unequivocal evidence?.yes. witch hunt.



LA did fail a drug test for cortisone, and has also been shown by genuine scientific lab results to have tested positive to EPO.
was using saddles cream. i called in sick to work last week, then i went the dr and got my med cert.
EPO testing is in debate. There was no test for EPO in the early days and there still isn't a test for re-injecting your own blood.
and again, its 1 test. cortisone in 99 helped him win 2004? (i might have years mixed up)


The document covering the allegations explain how he avoided being busted in both cases. And it is underhand. The doctor who backdated prescriptions in this case has been prosecuted. It also details how LA's team managed to circumvent testing regimes for years. For those who have been closely associated with cycling, these revelations are somewhat less surprising.
the people statements all point fingers towards others. "i got caught, cant have my medal so i'll try and take other down too. if i cant have it, noone can. i cant prove they were cheating but just trust me, i know they were".
LA played to the rules.

As for standing up in a court of law - I think you will find this question proven one way or the other in the very near future. All the legal advice tends to suggest he'll go down when it does. Sponsors, race organisers - even the US government are very likely to line up to prosecute LA. Stay tuned.innocent until proven guilty. circumstantial evidence at best.

[Scallops]

im not saying he didnt take PED, im saying the evidence doesnt support it

yes. witch hunt.

What is wrong with the lab results as published in L'Equipe? They are accepted in the scientific community as being unequivocal.


was using saddles cream. i called in sick to work last week, then i went the dr and got my med cert.
EPO testing is in debate. There was no test for EPO in the early days and there still isn't a test for re-injecting your own blood.
and again, its 1 test. cortisone in 99 helped him win 2004? (i might have years mixed up)

Did your Doctor backdate your script for your saddle cream too? This wasn't a backdated Medical certificate. More importantly, has your doctor been found guilty of corruption? It is routine to retest samples when new testing procedures are available. Probably didn't help the 2004 "win" as you say, but very likely might have been significant in his 1999 "win" :D


the people statements all point fingers towards others. "i got caught, cant have my medal so i'll try and take other down too. if i cant have it, noone can. i cant prove they were cheating but just trust me, i know they were".
LA played to the rules.
innocent until proven guilty. circumstantial evidence at best.

Read the evidence! That said, I accept your feeling that this an unresolved question. I don't agree, but again, I have read at least some of it....

Reasoned Decision (http://www.scribd.com/doc/109619079/Reasoned-Decision)

[Ferret]

... innocent until proven guilty. circumstantial evidence at best.

I think there is the testimony of team mates, people within the sport and people outside the sport to consider - maybe ~ 15 or more people with little or nothing to gain by fingering Armstrong. Plus now it is in the open, others associated with Armstrong or his former team have stepped forward and owned up to it.

I though initially there may have been some room for doubt, mainly because Armstrong was such a figure within and outside of cycling but the evidence seems overwhelming - very disappointed.

[Eevo]

Read the evidence! That said, I accept your feeling that this an unresolved question. I don't agree, but again, I have read at least some of the evidence.

Reasoned Decision (http://www.scribd.com/doc/109619079/Reasoned-Decision)
i have read half the report. i didnt seem the evidence as clear proof, i saw it as circumstantial, and a bit dodgy.
dont get my wrong, im not saying he did or didnt use PED. im saying the evidence doesnt back it up

[Eevo]

I think there is the testimony of team mates, people within the sport and people outside the spot to consider - maybe ~ 15 or more people with little or nothing to gain by fingering Armstrong. Plus now it is in the open, others associated with Armstrong or his former team have stepped forward and owned up to it.

I though initially there may have been some room for doubt, mainly because Armstrong was such a figure within and outside of cycling but the evidence seems overwhelming - very disappointed.
actually they have a lot of gain by pointing the finger. sort of like a plea bargain.
and the others were found gulty by testing.
people lie under oath

[Scallops]

i have read half the report. i didnt seem the evidence as clear proof, i saw it as circumstantial, and a bit dodgy.
dont get my wrong, im not saying he did or didnt use PED. im saying the evidence doesnt back it up

As before, what is your objection to the lab results as published in L'Equipe?

[Disco Muppet]

I have very little interest in cycling, although I have a few mates who are.
They may not have much to gain by pointing the finger, but what have they got to lose?
Could it be they're just toeing the party line?
Also, I thought he simply said no to challenging them, which is not an admission of guilt.
Just casting my cynical eye over it, happy to be corrected :)
Cheers
Muppet

[Eevo]

As before, what is your objection to the lab results as published in L'Equipe?
blood deteriorated over time.
leads to a false positive.

and their using a new test. the old test was good enough 15 years ago to say he was clean.

in anotoher 15 years they will invest another test that proves him clean
no independent testing. its tested by 1 body only.


remember with lindy chamberland (spelling) the test showed blood in the car, was a false positive, later tests showed it was choc milk

[Scallops]

blood deteriorated over time.
leads to a false positive.

and their using a new test. the old test was good enough 15 years ago to say he was clean.

in anotoher 15 years they will invest another test that proves him clean
no independent testing. its tested by 1 body only.

remember with lindy chamberland (spelling) the test showed blood in the car, was a false positive, later tests showed it was choc milk

These samples were held in a controlled environment where the integrity of samples were guaranteed. Not on the dashboard of a Kingswood. The lab is a world accredited independent lab. The new tests were good enough to be used at the Sydney Olympics and there after, but not good enough to convince you?

[Eevo]

These samples were held in a controlled environment where the integrity of samples were guaranteed. Not on the dashboard of a Kingswood. The lab is a world accredited independent lab. The new tests were good enough to be used at the Sydney Olympics and there after, but not good enough to convince you?

blood deteriorated over time. there is no stopping that.
im not saying their a bad lab or not qualified. but the samples wernt tested by other. no peer review, no cross examination.

as i said before, the old tests were good enough then, why not now?
or can newer testing only be used to prove someone guilty and not innocent. that seems fair,

[Scallops]

blood deteriorated over time. there is no stopping that.
im not saying their a bad lab or not qualified. but the samples wernt tested by other. no peer review, no cross examination.

as i said before, the old tests were good enough then, why not now?
or can newer testing only be used to prove someone guilty and not innocent. that seems fair,

Because new testing regimes can still identify cheats who managed to avoid detection at the time of their deceit. It is true that blood deteriorates over time, which is why this new testing method didn't rely purely on specific qualities of the blood sample itself, rather, it used an alternative method whereby the testing for traces of compounds in the blood that change significantly after the drug is taken. These compounds - or blood parameters - are indirect markers of EPO abuse and are now accepted by all laboratories worldwide as representing unequivocal evidence. But your assertion that in 15 years time, a new test might disprove these results is completely bogus. Testing that can demonstrate drug use at any point in time needs to apply the rigour of scientific analysis to become a testing protocol. All that can happen in 15 years time is that further samples taken in the past can test positive then.

No drug testing is done over multiple labs. B samples are rechecked under the same parameters in the same lab to actually add rigour to the testing.

So you won't be finding out that LA was doing chocolate milk this time.

[Eevo]

<snip>
No drug testing is done over multiple labs. B samples are rechecked under the same parameters in the same lab to actually add rigour to the testing.

So you won't be finding out that LA was doing chocolate milk this time.

ive no issue with the first part.

using only 1 lab, i see that as a problem. no independent verification.

lol @ choc milk

[Scallops]

ive no issue with the first part.

using only 1 lab, i see that as a problem. no independent verification.

lol @ choc milk

In regard to your objections to not testing samples in multiple labs, let me provide you with some information, as I have had quite some experience in cycling and the procedures in place in regard to participation and drug testing. Here is an excerpt from the Australian Government National Measurement Institute, the body that conducts drug testing in sport in this country.

NMI's sports drug testing laboratory (known worldwide as the Australian Sports Drug Testing Laboratory or ASDTL) complies with the requirements of ISO/IEC 17025:2005 and is accredited by NATA (7.71).

We are the only laboratory in the Australian region accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency to carry out doping control analysis in human sport and as such perform virtually all of the sports drug testing carried out in Australia and New Zealand. Samples are collected and shipped to us by the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority and Drug Free Sport NZ

It's the only sports drug lab in Australasia! This is exactly what happens the world over too. If you maintain that multiple labs must test multiple samples - otherwise, the results are somehow flawed, you are in effect saying that the entire process is flawed and therefore, by deduction, no positive test ever recorded can necessarily be legitimate. That is clearly non nonsensical.

[Eevo]

It's the only sports drug lab in Australasia! This is exactly what happens the world over too. If you maintain that multiple labs must test multiple samples - otherwise, the results are somehow flawed, you are in effect saying that the entire process is flawed and therefore, by deduction, no positive test ever recorded can necessarily be legitimate. That is clearly non nonsensical.

no, im saying people make mistakes, tests arnt accurate all the time. it needs repeated.

i did a physics degree at uni.

for something to be a theory or rule/law/accepted in the physics community, it needs to be repeated many times.

[EchiDna]

info on the financials on livestrong cancer "awareness" vs "research" debate, note that it predates much of the current investigation...

Lance Armstrong and Livestrong | Lance Armstrong | OutsideOnline.com (http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all)


as for the lab tests, the current testing for the re-injection of your own blood, tests for plasticizers in the blood that leach out of the plastic storage bags and into the blood. Stuff that does not exist in your blood unless you put it there - the fact that this was not tested for in prior years (the same scenario applied for EPO at the time) but now is does not make someone less guilty of cheating, it was simply a case of the testing used at the time of the offense was not targeting the drug or technique being used by the team.

As an imperfect analogy, think back 10-15 years - someone could be 100% off their head on marijuana or speed or a similar recreational drug. Mr Plod pulls said driver over and only has one tool at his disposal as a drug testing device, he uses his breathalyser to test for blood alcohol level and the driver passes (because he had no alcohol in his blood) so off the driver goes, he didn't fail the test so was never caught. Does this mean the driver was not intoxicated by any form of mind altering/judgement impairing drug? of course not, but this is the drivel brought up time and again by lance supporters - he never failed a test... which is not true on many levels beyond the mere intimidation/falsification testimonies given under oath by his former team mates etc.

Its not hearsay, its not proof, its testimony given under oath by a large number of guys, many of whom are now banned themselves for doing so. Did they have a choice? well only one guy has refused to take the stand in these cases and plead no contest - effectively stopping himself from either committing perjury now or admitting to perjury in the past by admitting drug use.

I find it unbelievable that people like Michael Ashenden have had their credibility challenged and their way of life effectively removed from them via the UCI and the bully boy tactics of team lance.

[Killer]

These samples were held in a controlled environment where the integrity of samples were guaranteed. Not on the dashboard of a Kingswood. The lab is a world accredited independent lab. The new tests were good enough to be used at the Sydney Olympics and there after, but not good enough to convince you?

Torana actually. :D:D Must get your facts correct Mr Scallops.:twisted::wasntme:
Keep up the discussion, it makes for interesting reading.

Cheers, Mick.

[Killer]

These samples were held in a controlled environment where the integrity of samples were guaranteed. Not on the dashboard of a Kingswood. The lab is a world accredited independent lab. The new tests were good enough to be used at the Sydney Olympics and there after, but not good enough to convince you?


Torana actually.:p

Keep the dicussion going, it is making very interesting reading.

Cheers, Mick.

[EchiDna]

no, im saying people make mistakes, tests arnt accurate all the time. it needs repeated.

i did a physics degree at uni.

for something to be a theory or rule/law/accepted in the physics community, it needs to be repeated many times.

Not the case in Chemistry ;-)

You need to study more on the validation of analytical test methods - this aint research or R&D, this is pharmaceutical quality assurance, an area where I make my living for over 20 years. Every single element of potential variation between user, equipment, chemical reagents, day of the week, location, operating conditions, range of testing, interfering false positives etc etc etc is tested multiple times across multiple laboratories in inter-laboratory comparison studies - in order for a method to be considered ready for use, everyone across that lab network globally will be getting the same results +/- 2% on specially prepared blind samples long before they move onto live samples.

Its this process that takes so much time to ensure the accuracy of the test methods when they finally do come out that allows the athletes to be ahead of the game for a few years, until such time as the tests are "officially" ready for use. The rigidity and validation program under which the analytical community has to work is in the athlete's favour in the short term, but in the long term, you are busted bigtime.

[rick130]

Wow, LA reads and posts on AULRO !




:angel:

[Scallops]

Wow, LA reads and posts on AULRO !




:angel:

He does? How do we know this? :eek:

[rick130]

Eevo ! :D





On one of the cycling forums I used to hangout on, even the fanbois have admitted it's all over, I'm really surprised someone has continued the ASADA witch hunt theme.

[rick130]

i


as for the lab tests, the current testing for the re-injection of your own blood, tests for plasticizers in the blood that leach out of the plastic storage bags and into the blood.

[snip]



This is one of the things that was claimed in Contador's clenbuterol positive, (although not busted for as it wasn't an authorised test at the time) the presence of plasticisers that indicate autologous transfusion.

Segura Says Contador Plasticizer Levels Are Indicative Of Transfusion | Cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/segura-says-contador-plasticizer-levels-are-indicative-of-transfusion)

[Eevo]

Not the case in Chemistry ;-)

chemistry is just a subset of physics :o


+/- 2% on specially prepared blind samples long before they move onto live samples.
2% is inaccurate imho

[Eevo]

Eevo ! :D

i own a mountain bike :D

[Scallops]

So this is interesting. We have a few who feel the evidence is poor and others who regard it as convincing.....it'll be interesting to see how (or if) any of our positions change. Keep the viewpoints coming..

We also have entertained the idea that even if LA is guilty.....he had at least done something positive....but interestingly again, perhaps not so much because of his foundation, but perhaps only because many are now riding.

If he isn't guilty - would this not be the single most remarkable cockup in the history of sport? Imagine fooling USADA and the UCI.....there'll be hell to pay.

[rick130]

Floyd came across as desperate and neurotic, Tyler just plain crazy with his 'twin' argument, but when Big George, Whitey, Dave Z, et al all say that the entire team did it and it was all to help the lead rider it's either the biggest conspiracy/collusion to frame someone ever seen in sport, or LA's as guilty as sin. :(

[Scallops]

Yep - and my money is on the latter....and I just heard on ABC news that a US insurer has demanded repayment of 7 million bucks (?) payed out as bonuses for TDF "victories" - I think that was the figure....anyway, the report went on to say that if LA doesn't volunteer to repay the funds, they'll take him to court. This company clearly regards it's case as robust....so will be interesting to follow this. The first of many such litigations, one suspects.

[isuzurover]

Yep - and my money is on the latter....and I just heard on ABC news that a US insurer has demanded repayment of 7 million bucks (?) payed out as bonuses for TDF "victories" - I think that was the figure....anyway, the report went on to say that if LA doesn't volunteer to repay the funds, they'll take him to court. This company clearly regards it's case as robust....so will be interesting to follow this. The first of many such litigations, one suspects.

I believe it was the lawyer for the same company who said on 4 corners they have a deposition where Armstrong perjured himself (by saying he had never used PEDs). I suspect the threat of a prosecution for perjury would be significant motivation to repay the $$$.

[rick130]

Yep - and my money is on the latter....and I just heard on ABC news that a US insurer has demanded repayment of 7 million bucks (?) payed out as bonuses for TDF "victories" - I think that was the figure....anyway, the report went on to say that if LA doesn't volunteer to repay the funds, they'll take him to court. This company clearly regards it's case as robust....so will be interesting to follow this. The first of many such litigations, one suspects.

That stems from a case years ago where LA took the insurance company to court as they refused to pay out on his sixth or seventh Le Tour win bonus as they claimed he was probably tainted.

He beat them with the 'never tested positive' argument, so they obviously now want their money back.

[Eevo]

He beat them with the 'never tested positive' argument, so they obviously now want their money back.

that is still the case.

note the difference, he is guilty without testing positive.

[isuzurover]

that is still the case.

note the difference, he is guilty without testing positive.

That is not the case - he did test positive at least once (cortisone?).

[Scallops]

that is still the case.

note the difference, he is guilty without testing positive.

But only not guilty through alleged deceit as presented in the USADA dossier....a court will test this evidence sooner rather than later, I suspect.

[rick130]

that is still the case.

note the difference, he is guilty without testing positive.

Witnesses still carry reasonable weight in court even without hard evidence and many witnesses are saying he did it, corroborating the circumstantial evidence.

[Blknight.aus]

Im going to take my normal stance on this....

we need to do it like racing was before it got all girliefied...

open class..

ya got four wheels? go for it, whaddya mean you want more rules... ok after the flag drops first car past the finishline wins....

Same for humans, basic bipedal, head at the top, 2 arms eyes and ears, pair of lungs and a single heart. cool go for it....


Restricted..

Ok for the cars, uummm 3l engine max swept volume, no more han 100psi boost and 100l fuel tanks.. ummm well make more of it later.

humans
No augmentations, biological, toxilogical, mecanical or neurological. your basic shoved out of some woman kicking and wailing into the world human.

[rick130]

That is not the case - he did test positive at least once (cortisone?).

Yep,and witnesses claim the GP wrote a pre-dated script after the fact, claiming it was a cream used for saddle sores.

These blokes know they are supposed to get an exemption prior to use and know damned well what they can and cannot take.

SWMBO was in a squad for one of the Olympics ('96 ?) and the lists of what you couldn't take were huge, and notification had to be made prior to anything even remotely being suspect used, etc, etc.
She was called in for a random, out of comp test too.
It was eye opening stuff for us, we were only used to the horses being swabbed.

[Scallops]

Now I get what LA really meant when he said, "it's not about the bike"....!!!!!

[rick130]

Im going to take my normal stance on this....

we need to do it like racing was before it got all girliefied...

open class..

ya got four wheels? go for it, whaddya mean you want more rules... ok after the flag drops first car past the finishline wins....

Same for humans, basic bipedal, head at the top, 2 arms eyes and ears, pair of lungs and a single heart. cool go for it....


Restricted..

Ok for the cars, uummm 3l engine max swept volume, no more han 100psi boost and 100l fuel tanks.. ummm well make more of it later.

humans
No augmentations, biological, toxilogical, mecanical or neurological. your basic shoved out of some woman kicking and wailing into the world human.

The only reason doping is banned is for basic health reasons, otherwise it'd be open slather.

It isn't for something altruistic like ensuring a level playing field.

[rick130]

Now I get what LA really meant when he said, "it's not about the bike"....!!!!!

A Scottish book store has placed that little tome in the 'Fiction' section of their shop :D

[isuzurover]

That is not the case - he did test positive at least once (cortisone?).

To add to this, a prologue sample has tested positive for EPO. There are witness statements of another positive test (EPO again???).

The evidence seems "beyond reasonable doubt" to me.

Maybe the solution for future TDF is to make all the riders (and officials) sleep in one big room - what the Germans would call a "matrazenlager". Plenty of them throughout the alps...

[EchiDna]

chemistry is just a subset of physics :o
2% is inaccurate imho

well lucky your authority doesn't stand up to the requirements of the global pharma industry eh? ;-)

USFDA, MRHA, EDQM, ICH, TGA the list goes on of health authorities that require +/- 2% variation in results across method validation - remember we are often talking about picogram concentrations here, at the edge of detection levels...

biochemistry is a branch of physics perhaps, but it would be like looking for a daffodil flowering on a gumtree.

[rick130]

To add to this, a prologue sample has tested positive for EPO. There are witness statements of another positive test (EPO again???).

The evidence seems "beyond reasonable doubt" to me.

Maybe the solution for future TDF is to make all the riders (and officials) sleep in one big room - what the Germans would call a "matrazenlager". Plenty of them throughout the alps...

For the last couple of years they've used what is called a 'biological passport' ie, they all had to give blood prior to a season start, full bloods have been done and they aren't allowed to vary too much from that baseline for the entire season, so if they undertake something like an autologous transfusion, use EPO or any other doping method that can be tested for it should show up.

All bloods are also stored indefinitely and can be tested in the future when better test methods are devised.

[isuzurover]

...

biochemistry is a branch of physics perhaps...

I agree with you (and disagree with LA's alter ego (Eevo)), except for the above...


All science is either physics or stamp collecting

[Eevo]

That is not the case - he did test positive at least once (cortisone?).
to a drug which was in a cream prescribed for saddlesores

[rick130]

I agree with you (and disagree with LA's alter ego (Eevo)), except for the above...

A mate of mine with a PhD in Chem reckons there are only three sciences, Physics, Chem and Mathematics, all the rest is voodoo.

Mind you we are polar opposites in the climate change debate and have had some pretty intense arguments, particularly when I tell him he is disregarding logic, evidence and science by denying man has or is causing any changes to the earth and its climate :angel:

[rick130]

to a drug which was in a cream prescribed for saddlesores

Claimed, and according to witnesses the saddle sore cream excuse is bollocks.

As I said above, anything like that has to have pre-approval, and these blokes know the rules.

[Eevo]

well lucky your authority doesn't stand up to the requirements of the global pharma industry eh? ;-)
dont get me started on them




biochemistry is a branch of physics perhaps, but it would be like looking for a daffodil flowering on a gumtree.
chem is a subset
an inferior subset :wasntme:

*disclaimer, i did first yr chem at uni :angel:

[Eevo]

As I said above, anything like that has to have pre-approval, and these blokes know the rules.
when you call in sick for work, do you go the dr for a med cert first or after you call in?

[rick130]

when you call in sick for work, do you go the dr for a med cert first or after you call in?

It doesn't work like that and they know it, it isn't 'normal' life.
If it's listed, it can't be used. Full stop, end of story. You then get approval, and it's all monitored and under supervision.

Anyone else in another sport would have been instantly suspended.

[Scallops]

Maybe some contributors need to re-read this thread. The post dating was for a script - not a medical certificate.

And really, many of the persons contributing to this thread have degrees in Science.....it's not like any individual represents the lone voice of reason in this regard.

[rick130]

[snip]

And really, many of the persons contributing to this thread have degrees in Science.....it's not like any individual represents the lone voice of reason in this regard.

I better stop then, I'm just a dumb tradie.
I couldn't possibly recognise reason, logic or weight of evidence, even if it may be based on witness accounts and circumstantial evidence...





:angel:


(That wasn't a dig at you Dan, just couldn't help myself :D)

[Ferret]

when you call in sick for work, do you go the dr for a med cert first or after you call in?

Does not work like that in sporting teams I've been on at international level.

If your a member of team and you need to see a Dr. the team manager accompanies you. You don't get to the Dr without management being with you. Management brings their list of prohibited substance for the Dr to consult prior to proscribing.

You don't like that, that's OK, you don't have to agree but you also don't compete either.

[rick130]

[snip]

There was no test for EPO in the early days and there still isn't a test for re-injecting your own blood.
and again, its 1 test. cortisone in 99 helped him win 2004? (i might have years mixed up)


the people statements all point fingers towards others. "i got caught, cant have my medal so i'll try and take other down too. if i cant have it, noone can. i cant prove they were cheating but just trust me, i know they were".
LA played to the rules.
innocent until proven guilty. circumstantial evidence at best.

IIRC there were two EPO tests devised early on, and it took several years for one to be adopted.

There are ways to see if autologous transfusions are used, they look at haematocrit levels and these days compare them to the riders 'biological passport' or baseline bloods.
In the past it was less cut and dried, the levels were tested and levels would either fall into a 'normal' range or 'suspect'.

Pretty sure Marco Pantani failed on this basis once ?

The riders that have implicated LA haven't all failed dope tests, only Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton and maybe Levi Leipheimer are convicted cheats (can't recall if Levii ever failed a control ?)

George Hincappie (LA's Lieutenant for many years) Dave Zabriskie (sp?) Matt White, etc never failed a doping control, but have come out and admitted they doped, damning LA in the process.

[Eevo]

George Hincappie (LA's Lieutenant for many years) Dave Zabriskie (sp?) Matt White, etc never failed a doping control, but have come out and admitted they doped, damning LA in the process.

that indicates to me that the process doesn't work
and LA might of been able to dope for 15years

that represents a failure of the anti dope people

[Scallops]

Yep, but I hope there is no inference here that this diminishes individual responsibility.

[Blknight.aus]

The only reason doping is banned is for basic health reasons, otherwise it'd be open slather.


sounds like darwinism to me...

(and I did realise the reason behind it having that crap beaten into me every year again, and again and again and again and its so depressing that by the time Ive sat through equity, WHS, drugs, fraud I find myself in need of the suicide awareness briefs)

I think it still applies..


if you want to try to squeeze 400PSI boost into a 1.1l diesel and enter it in an open event go for it, when it blows apart well yes, you get that the risks are generally well understood.

If you want to dope yourself up to the eyeballs to go that extra m/s faster for 10 minutes to win in an open event go for it, but when your blood pressure is so high your sphincter is expelled and your heart breaks apart your ribcage pulverizing your lungs and you become some strange mutated glow in the dark freak that could double for rolex in the fly II well yes, you get that, the risks are generally well understood.

[Scallops]

Yeah, but not everyone does Dave, that's the thing. The guys who won't do drugs are either shunned, or quit (Graeme O'Bree a classic example) Same thing with Defys though- some folks simply can't come around to using the most performance enhanced model of the lot!

[EchiDna]

that indicates to me that the process doesn't work
and LA might of been able to dope for 15years

that represents a failure of the anti dope people

The process didn't work at the time because the scientific rigour required in order to adopt a new test method is extreme and can take years. Don't forget this class of pharmaceutical did not even exist commercially only 20 years ago (recombinant DNA based biopharmaceuticals) and we are talking about an athelete and team abusing the system more than 13 years ago.

Can't you accept that just because someone develops a new drug intended for healing people with anemia or aids or cancer (in the case of EPO), that the doping control bodies do not automatically begin developing test methods immediately for every new drug out there... However, guys like Dr Ferrari see the opportunity to boost performance through increasing the oxygen carrying capacity of the subject's blood and athletes that want to cheat will do so.

Reality is at the time of the early offenses, the athletes had access to better science, better doctors and better tech than the authorities but that has changed and hopefully moving forward the authorities will be ahead of the curve rather than behind. Regardless, cheating when you think you can't be caught is still cheating is it not?

The USPS team had a doping program, so many people have owned up to doping through the legal action of the USADA - all had so much to loose by doing so, their reputations, their lively hood, their family and friend's respect... not the kind of things people take lightly.

[rick130]

[snip]
Same thing with Defys though- some folks simply can't come around to using the most performance enhanced model of the lot!

:lol2:

Another ex-USPS rider admits to doping.

Kjaergaard confesses to doping while at Chicky World and US Postal

Kjaergaard Confesses To Doping While At Chicky World And US Postal | Cyclingnews.com (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kjaergaard-confesses-to-doping-while-at-chicky-world-and-us-postal)



Kjærgaard did not have to dope alone whilst at the US team, but was taken into the programme. “I was part of the now well-known U.S. Postal regime to prepare riders to the limit. I was on the carousel for nearly three seasons.”
However, he did not know what his teammates were doing, doping-wise, he claimed. “I did not have direct knowledge of this. It was a closed system, and I chose to keep it closed.”

[Scallops]

Was looking into the sponsors who have dumped LA recently, and being a bit of a Trek man, checked out their website. Couldn't find any reference to LA any longer, but this is what is written under their top tier road machines....


Race Performance / Train, race, win

Tour winners. Olympians. World Champions. These are our race performance test pilots. We work together with them to create bikes that are fast, strong, and perfectly suited to conquer every challenge on every road.

Got me thinking :D ....Tour winners on Treks. Well, LA ain't no more. Alberto Contador - I know he won on the Discovery team in 07 and 09 - were these stripped as 2010 was??

[Killer]

Just 2010 I think, it was a 2 year ban.

Cheers, Mick.

P.S. I might have to do something about the sticker on the Defender that says "Lance and I ride trek." :angel:

[isuzurover]

... I might have to do something about the sticker on the Defender that says "Lance and I ride trek." :angel:

I was just saying the other day to a mate that there must be a lot of trek owners out there who feel a bit silly now...

[EchiDna]

It sucks to think that Trek shelved the "Lemond" brand/range of bikes with the intro of the "Madone" range when a certain Texan became top dog... Greg had to take them to court to get the use of his own name back even though they weren't going to use it again.

as for Contador, yep, he only lost the 2010 yellow jersey and kept the earlier ones.

Buggered if I can work out how Pat Mcquaid can justify keeping his position at the moment...

[Scallops]

I was just saying the other day to a mate that there must be a lot of trek owners out there who feel a bit silly now...

Nah - I've got the non team civilian model. ;)

[rick130]

It sucks to think that Trek shelved the "Lemond" brand/range of bikes with the intro of the "Madone" range when a certain Texan became top dog... Greg had to take them to court to get the use of his own name back even though they weren't going to use it again.

as for Contador, yep, he only lost the 2010 yellow jersey and kept the earlier ones.

Buggered if I can work out how Pat Mcquaid can justify keeping his position at the moment...

Yep, LeMond has come out of all this totally vindicated.

For those that aren't aware, LeMond has been claiming LA was tainted for a number of years now, so Trek (supposedly with LA egging on) dumped his brand/line of bikes as he was damaging the marketing tie in with LA and the USPS team.

LA went after LeMond and his family, so you had Trek on one side and LA on the other as they tried to wipe him out financially to silence him.

LeMond became increasingly shrill with his LA denunciations, claiming all sorts of skullduggery and bully boy tactics from LA personally and LA and Trek's legal teams, which to most commentators sounded like it was paranoia, or at least verging on it.

Turns out it was all true.




Both Pat McQuaid and Hein Verbruggen look either tainted or incompetent from an outsiders perspective.
Either way, the UCI looks almost as bad as the dopers.

[Blknight.aus]

Yeah, but not everyone does Dave, that's the thing. The guys who won't do drugs are either shunned, or quit (Graeme O'Bree a classic example)

Same thing with Defys though- some folks simply can't come around to using the most performance enhanced model of the lot!

If your worried about peer pressure to do the drugs, thats easily fixed by the different competition classes, basic human and open. just like guys who race in naturally aspirated classes are immune to the derision to fit turbochargers and superchargers.

no reason why we should....


Same thing with Defys though- some folks simply can't come around to using the most performance enhanced model of the lot!

If you can get there and dont need the extra help, why pay to have it on board?

But that also fits into the general demise of driver skills anyway... a driver who can reverse parallel park a car without auto park can still parallel park a car thats got it. Can the one who needs the auto park to do a reverse parallel park in a car that doesnt have it?

OR how about the new WV auto brake... The adds grate driver talking to the passanger not paying attention to the road, facing the passanger and nearly goes through the steering wheel cause the brakes have come on automatically. Awesome, accident avoided. 2 questions.

1. What if he'd drifted into the oncoming traffic instead of staying in lane behind the van in front.
2. Does it in any way encourage responsible vehicle operation.


but thats kinda getting off the point of the LA debacle.

[EchiDna]

Speaking of Lemond....McQuaid et al....
Open Letter to Pat McQuaid from Greg LeMond | Cycling Tips (http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/10/open-letter-to-pat-mcquaid-from-greg-lemond/)

[rick130]

Speaking of Lemond....McQuaid et al....
Open Letter to Pat McQuaid from Greg LeMond | Cycling Tips (http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/10/open-letter-to-pat-mcquaid-from-greg-lemond/)

Cheers.

From the same site, this is worth reading too....
Q&A With Paul Kimmage | Cycling Tips (http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/10/qa-with-paul-kimmage/)

[DiscoWeb]

when you call in sick for work, do you go the dr for a med cert first or after you call in?

When your work, your livelihood and "brand" rely on an particular image in a sport already heavily tainted by drug use, I would go to the doc before I got sick to advise him I was feeling a little off.

The argument is flawed.

Additionally what does cycling as a sport gain by outing, albeit belatedly their greatest ever champion! If they thought there was any shred of doubt about the ASDA evidence they would have torn it apart and reinstated their champ.

They did not!

George

[Scallops]

Cutting edge TV show to detail the entire saga......:D

‘South Park’ takes aim at Lance Armstrong | GulfNews.com (http://gulfnews.com/about-gulf-news/al-nisr-portfolio/tabloid/south-park-takes-aim-at-lance-armstrong-1.1096162)

[Scallops]

And LA is now even a hit with the Edenbridge Bonfire Society! :D

Armstrong effigy unveiled for UK bonfire (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/armstrong-effigy-unveiled-for-uk-bonfire-20121101-28l67.html)

[Scallops]

I dunno, I liked the bonfire story better myself! :D

[Scallops]

So...where were we?

Coming clean: Armstrong considers full confession (http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/coming-clean-armstrong-considers-full-confession-20130105-2c9xa.html)

[Marmoset]

I wish he'd just get lost to be honest. I can't believe that there's talk of a deal in order that he can compete again at something in 4 years time, does he have no shame?

[Ferret]

Reports are that he confessed today on the Oprah Winfrey show.

Why is it he finds it OK to confess in the court of 'day time television' but can't confess in the court of 'law'. Guilt, cheating - it's just something to be stage managed properly.

Your right Marmoset - he has no shame.

[Eevo]

anyone know where i can see the full episode of the show?

[Ferret]

I watched here

OWNTV (http://www.oprah.com/own_tv/onc/lance-armstrong-one.html)