Is a Jeep Grand Cherokee really better than a D4?

[DiscoDavey]

So I have pencilled my name down next to a MY13 D4 but according to Drive, the Grand Cherokee is a better vehicle. So much so that they didn't even do a comparison - none of the competitors (including D4) could "not throw out a serious challenge"

Drive Best 4WD 2012 (http://news.drive.com.au/drive/car-of-the-year/dcoty-2012-best-4wd-finalist--jeep-grand-cherokee-laredo-diesel-20121010-27cs2.html)

So should I be thinking Grand Cherokee over D4? Has anyone done the comparison?

Pro's
GC Laredo has air suspension as an option
Cheaper (by about $10,000 depending on options)
Terrain response (Selec-Terrain)
3500kg towing capacity
8.2s 0-100km/h
8.3L/100km

Con's
No 7 seats?
Entry/Departure angles
It's a Jeep

[d@rk51d3]

So, they've awarded it "car of the year" without even driving it. :confused:

[discotwinturbo]

This Jeep does not like sand.....so you would think that would immediately wipe them out of the running for what most Australians use their 4wdrives for.

Brett....

[Tombie]

They're a tidy unit.... Guy here has the latest V8 version..

They are smaller... Less space..

But they are nice...

Would I swap the D4... Not on your life...


Amarok will be my next vehicle... Not a Jeep... :cool:

[NavyDiver]

So, they've awarded it "car of the year" without even driving it. :confused:
even better the vote for peoples choice is riged It only has the cars they want to win in the so called "peoples choice" http://www.drive.com.au/car-of-the-year/
smells like a rat to me.

Put a post on the article. Bet it will not get published.
"A 4wd compared to what. Toorak tractors or a real bush, mountain or sand likable car not tested and you vote it number 1 4WD. The seems to more than slightly undermined your credibility."

[CaverD3]

Is a Jeep Grand Cherokee really better than a D4?

No

Jeep Grand Cherokee moose test -- the full story - YouTube

[Pedro_The_Swift]

maybe some one should post that link on the Drive site

[TerryO]

I will admit I went and drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited yesterday after checking out the flash Overland model.

The Limited doesn't drive quite as nice as air suspended D3/4 but the Limited didn't have the air suspension option like the Overland does, so it's not a fair comparison.

The diesel engine is great with plenty of power, a bit noisy though but very smooth, the five speed auto is ok.

Now the Overland, compare that to even a HSE D4 in standard equipment levels and it makes the Landy look like a basic shopping trolley.

They are about the size of a RRS inside including boot space and like a RRS they are only five seats, but to be honest we don't need a seven seater.

The options the Overland comes with is amazing, you would have to order specially a HSE that would cost around $120k with similar options I would guess and it comes standard with an e-diff. The air suspension lifts 2.5 inches in off road mode and doesn't lower until 80 kph. it has heated and cooled seats, full sun roof, it has a flash pretty much D3 Logic 7 level Harmon Kardon stereo (not D4 Logic 7 level), Nappa leather trim, reverse camera and Gps, auto open and close tail gate, auto speed sensing cruise control and it also tows 3.5 ton and that is just a few of the standard features. Seriously also the finish in the Overland is very very good.

Another good thing the spare is carried inside the vehicle, so while it limits rear draws it does mean no rear wheel carrier is required and there is room for a rim with a much bigger tyre fitted. The Overland comes with 20's standard but the standard 18" Laredo rims fit if you need a reasonable selection of off road tyres. I was told they believe a long range tank will become available in the not to distant future and there is a massive amount of room under it for one.

One of the main let downs for me was you need a WDH if you tow over 2.25 ton. You can now get a bull bar (alloy) and I don't believe there is a snorkel, nor could one be fitted easily. There is no room under the bonnet for a dual battery but supposedly there is kit you can buy. The carrying capacity is not great, somewhere around 600 kgs I think, not 100% on that.

I watched the video and the swerve test was pretty bad but maybe for a start they need better tyres than the standard very low profile Kumho's they come with???

As a soft off roader that could go most places but is mainly for dirt roads and towing large vans I reckon they have it pretty much nailed. Why? Because a diesel Overland with all the bells and whistles standard costs about $78k drive away RRP.

How can Jeep sell these here for that price when a Similar spec D4 would cost way north of $100k?

If it was 100% a decision made by Gloria my wife then we would have come home with a diesel Overland yesterday end of story and at that amazing price and all the top notch gear it comes with tandard and the way it drives it is hard to argue against it I must admit. So an obvious word of advice to any others out there, do not take your wife with you to look at one of these things as it might prove to be a game changer.

cheers,
Terry

[goingbush]

I dont think the LandRover fared too well with the Moose Test either.

Land Rover Defender becomes the 3'rd car ever to fail the Moose-test (http://forums.finalgear.com/general-automotive/land-rover-defender-becomes-the-3rd-car-ever-to-fail-the-moose-test-19747/)

.

[CaverD3]

I wouldn't expect a defener to pass the moose test.
Grand cherokee ia new model and they have not got the ESC right.

LR gouge on extras. ICE upgrades, Sat nav, DAB, TV, rear air and $3000 for 'premium matalic' colours. :mad:

If previous models are anything to go by quality will be a problem. Maybe you get what you pay for?

Had a drive of a V8 one and it was fun similar to a RRS but they are a reverse tardis.

[Reads90]

I dont think the LandRover fared too well with the Moose Test either.

Land Rover Defender becomes the 3'rd car ever to fail the Moose-test (http://forums.finalgear.com/general-automotive/land-rover-defender-becomes-the-3rd-car-ever-to-fail-the-moose-test-19747/)

.

But that's a defender. A car that has not changed since the beginning of the 80's.
we don't need to spend money on a test we all already know it would fail. Same reasons that Land Rover once told me why they don't put the defender through their £6 million water leakage detection equipment. They already know they leak why do they need a £6 million thing to tell them what they already know.

[Barryp]

I had a Grand Cherokee Laredo a few vehicles ago and it was smooth riding and had nice seats but it could only be described as poor in all other respects. I will not bore you with the dealer returns that I had on the vehicle but some of the issues should have stopped the vehicle from being allowed on Australian roads. One serious issue was that suspension caster and camber were set up to drive on the wrong side of the road! Car wanted to pull to the left on a straight road. (This was a standard problem and not an isolated issue) Jeep took a long time to fix that one as the live axle had these angles set (welded) during manufacture. A special aftermarket eccentric ball joint mount was the final fix. At least it looks like the suspension is now independant!
I hope that they have improved but I wouldn't risk another one after my experiences.
Regards
Barryp

[LR D4]

I think they are good value and that's about it !!

You can't really compare this type of car to the D4, well you can but it will loose every time, with no bias of course :p

[swordfish805]

I looked at the Jeep in both Laredo and the Overland guises just a few months ago - and then promptly spent $20k more buying a D4 HSE.

The Jeeps just felt tacky - way too much plastic. Then there was the cabin noise, tyre noise...

We felt the Disco drove much more smoothly and was highly recommended as a tow vehicle.

Still, give Jeep their credit, this model of GC seems to be their best yet, the Fiat diesel is winning a lot of praise and you get a lot of equipment for your cash.

[Celtoid]

Not that I'm saying this Rag has much credibility, but didn't Overlander do a comparo last year on the last version of this car and it was seen to be very much a pretender. Lots of LR esk stuff but lacked the actual performance....as in Air Suspension didn't actually move when extended etc....?

[DiscoDavey]

The air suspension doesn't have the same range as the LR. Fully extended the Jeep GC reaches 271mm V LR's 310mm. This in turn effects the approach angles 34 degrees v 36.2 degrees. For soft beach sand the high ride is useful.

Just read this from the article..
"Last year's testing didn't include a formal off-road section, but a recent drive through the Rocky Mountains in the US highlighted that for all its plushness and new-found luxury feel, the Grand Cherokee is still a hardcore off-roader at heart."

Great testing regime!!

[Celtoid]

The air suspension doesn't have the same range as the LR. Fully extended the Jeep GC reaches 271mm V LR's 310mm. This in turn effects the approach angles 34 degrees v 36.2 degrees. For soft beach sand the high ride is useful.

Just read this from the article..
"Last year's testing didn't include a formal off-road section, but a recent drive through the Rocky Mountains in the US highlighted that for all its plushness and new-found luxury feel, the Grand Cherokee is still a hardcore off-roader at heart."

Great testing regime!!

The article I read, which was actually BS...cause the drivers had no freakin idea about the tech or systems in the cars they tested...WTF, how do u actually test the car if u have no idea about it's features?....did actually make the point that the TC in the Jeep was not quite there and the suspension when extended didn't flex at all. Not the height, just the fact that it felt like driving on bricks. That sort of thing.

[Stuart02]

Yeah there's a lot more to good air suspension than just jacking the car up - namely ride and articulation. If anyone's seen youtube footage of Touaregs 'offroading' you'll still be giggling at the way they teeter through traverses like princesses on stilts holding up their skirts...
I wonder about motoring journos these days. Even in a review I read recently on the army issue G-wagens, where the guy claimed to have the same BFG ATs on his home car, he seemed remarkably impressed by some pretty standard training ground maneuvers... I'd want to see the Jeep properly put through its paces for myself...

[Redback]

I will admit I went and drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited yesterday after checking out the flash Overland model.

The Limited doesn't drive quite as nice as air suspended D3/4 but the Limited didn't have the air suspension option like the Overland does, so it's not a fair comparison.

The diesel engine is great with plenty of power, a bit noisy though but very smooth, the five speed auto is ok.

Now the Overland, compare that to even a HSE D4 in standard equipment levels and it makes the Landy look like a basic shopping trolley.

They are about the size of a RRS inside including boot space and like a RRS they are only five seats, but to be honest we don't need a seven seater.

The options the Overland comes with is amazing, you would have to order specially a HSE that would cost around $120k with similar options I would guess and it comes standard with an e-diff. The air suspension lifts 2.5 inches in off road mode and doesn't lower until 80 kph. it has heated and cooled seats, full sun roof, it has a flash pretty much D3 Logic 7 level Harmon Kardon stereo (not D4 Logic 7 level), Nappa leather trim, reverse camera and Gps, auto open and close tail gate, auto speed sensing cruise control and it also tows 3.5 ton and that is just a few of the standard features. Seriously also the finish in the Overland is very very good.

Another good thing the spare is carried inside the vehicle, so while it limits rear draws it does mean no rear wheel carrier is required and there is room for a rim with a much bigger tyre fitted. The Overland comes with 20's standard but the standard 18" Laredo rims fit if you need a reasonable selection of off road tyres. I was told they believe a long range tank will become available in the not to distant future and there is a massive amount of room under it for one.

One of the main let downs for me was you need a WDH if you tow over 2.25 ton. You can now get a bull bar (alloy) and I don't believe there is a snorkel, nor could one be fitted easily. There is no room under the bonnet for a dual battery but supposedly there is kit you can buy. The carrying capacity is not great, somewhere around 600 kgs I think, not 100% on that.

I watched the video and the swerve test was pretty bad but maybe for a start they need better tyres than the standard very low profile Kumho's they come with???

As a soft off roader that could go most places but is mainly for dirt roads and towing large vans I reckon they have it pretty much nailed. Why? Because a diesel Overland with all the bells and whistles standard costs about $78k drive away RRP.

How can Jeep sell these here for that price when a Similar spec D4 would cost way north of $100k?

If it was 100% a decision made by Gloria my wife then we would have come home with a diesel Overland yesterday end of story and at that amazing price and all the top notch gear it comes with tandard and the way it drives it is hard to argue against it I must admit. So an obvious word of advice to any others out there, do not take your wife with you to look at one of these things as it might prove to be a game changer.

cheers,
Terry

Tell about the WDH it needs Terry:p

If you get a flat, you have to pull everything out of the back to change it, no load space, no decent aftermarket accessories.

I'd love a 4 door Wrangler Rubicon though, if only they brought the diesel into Australia:mad:

[rufusking]

I took one for a drive when the current model irst came out. Felt like I was driving from inside a letterbox! I'm a taller bloke and like the open feel of the Discovery's. On pricing, Jeep dropped the pricing dramaticaly from the previous model mainly due to the exchange rate. Good for new Jeep buyers buyers but pi$$3d off existing owners of Jeeps as their second hand values also took a hit (not that they had much to start with).

[Tusker]

I had a Grand Cherokee Laredo a few vehicles ago and it was smooth riding and had nice seats but it could only be described as poor in all other respects. I will not bore you with the dealer returns that I had on the vehicle but some of the issues should have stopped the vehicle from being allowed on Australian roads. One serious issue was that suspension caster and camber were set up to drive on the wrong side of the road! Car wanted to pull to the left on a straight road. (This was a standard problem and not an isolated issue) Jeep took a long time to fix that one as the live axle had these angles set (welded) during manufacture. A special aftermarket eccentric ball joint mount was the final fix. At least it looks like the suspension is now independant!
I hope that they have improved but I wouldn't risk another one after my experiences.
Regards
Barryp

Those old ones have nothing in common with the series on sale now. We remember Ford putting the broom through Landrover & introducing worlds best manufacturing policies. Jeep are now where Landrover was with the launch of the D3 - a complete overhaul of build quality. With the Grand Cherokkee anyway, the rest of the range leaves a bit to be desired.

The new one is mostly Mercedes Benz underneath. Floorpan steering suspension etc. The VN diesel leapfrogs Landrover, who will play catchup with 2013 specs. Transmission is the Benz 5 speed, an 8 speed comes next year.

The diesel is quicker than their 5.7 litre V8 according to Jeep figures.

Diffs etc look remarkably similar to the D4, possibly the same. I think Dana are the supplier to LandRover.

Prices... Jeep have dropped their prices with the high $A, Landrover haven't. No good enough LRA.

Tyres.. Can be had on the same 18s as the Ford Territory. (200 kgs heavier than the Ford!) The D4's minimum 19" tyre spec was the last straw for me.

So LRA have lost a sale. I've ordered a Grand Cherokee for business purposes. It won't go where a lifted & locked Defender will, but neither will a D4.

Regards
Max P

[TerryO]

Tell about the WDH it needs Terry:p

If you get a flat, you have to pull everything out of the back to change it, no load space, no decent aftermarket accessories.

I'd love a 4 door Wrangler Rubicon though, if only they brought the diesel into Australia:mad:


Correct, just like a RRS, as I said both vehicles are very similar in size inside and out and while the RRS doesn't have a Bull bar the GC now does. It would seam as these vehicles become more popular accessories are becoming available, unfortunately that is not the case with the RRS.

As far as standard flash gadgets go the Overland leaves the base model $100,000 Rangie for dead just like it does the HSE D4.

I did actually mention the need for a WDH if you tow over 2.25 ton.

I would hazard a guess that 95% of 4wd's never go to far off the beaten track, if at all. The fact that it is very hard to find a new D4 with a e-diff fitted backs that up as dealers keep telling me few buyers even ask about it nor wnt one. I would bet for 95% of punters who now buy new 4wd's they would not care about whether you can fit rear draws or extra wheel carriers etc. nor will they ever need that level of off road accessories.

I am not saying the Jeep is better than a D4, I am saying for the majority of punters out there they present as much better value for money and will do most of the things that the average punter wants from a 4wd vehicle and then some.

The proof is in the pudding, there are a handful of new diesel Overlands for sale right now as they sell as quick as they arrive and the average wait for a new one is three months. From memory I read somewhere that sales of this new model has gone up over 190% from the previous model. As far as a sales success goes the new Jeep Overland is killing the opposition dead.

As I said don't take your wife to see one or you might find yourself driving home in a Jeep!

cheers,
Terry

[NavyDiver]

Going to drive one today:), report back later. Would take a lot to get me out of my Disco. Will ask if I can take it to the bush and across the river but assume it will be a NO way :D

[Geedublya]

I'd like an SRT8 :p. Don't think it has low range though.:mad:

[andrewchr]

The Jeeps are very good value for money and the current series are streets ahead of the previous models. The mercedes mechanicals have improved things out of sight. We ended up choosing the rrs over the overland because it was a better overall package if you have passengers but if it was just my wife and I the jeep probably would have gotten the nod. Agree that its annoying that both mercedes and jeep can drop prices on the back of the strong dollar but not lra.
Just my 2 cents
Andrew

[Celtoid]

In very recent times the American car industry just about ceased to exist...all of it.

Those that survived I suppose have had to pick up their game. Dramatically dropping their prices and lifting equipment levels are probably a few of many things they have done.

A few years ago you couldn't give away an American car. LR have never had that issue with D4 and RRS, so they won't see a need for change.

It will be interesting to see how well the new Jeeps perform, last and hold value. It will be interesting to see if their 'value' hurts LR sales.

[TerryO]

Hi Celtoid,

We spend quite a lot of time driving on freeways and as I find it pretty boring I check out 4x4's coming from the other direction just to see what is being driven. From what I have seen recently the number of new model Grand Cheorkee's out there is quite amazing considering they have only been around for about 18 months.

Quite a few are towing new vans as well. After checking them out I can't help but feel these new WK models will have a major impact on D4 sales

cheers,
Terry

[Barryp]

Hi Tusker,
Test drove the Mercedes ML350 before buying the RR Sport, not sure that because the Jeep is now part Mercedes necesarily means that it is all OK these days. Must admit that the pricing on the Jeep is attractive though.
Regards
Barryp

[Celtoid]

Hi Celtoid,

We spend quite a lot of time driving on freeways and as I find it pretty boring I check out 4x4's coming from the other direction just to see what is being driven. From what I have seen recently the number of new model Grand Cheorkee's out there is quite amazing considering they have only been around for about 18 months.

Quite a few are towing new vans as well. After checking them out I can't help but feel these new WK models will have a major impact on D4 sales

cheers,
Terry

I certainly hope so Terry, 'cause I'll be looking at replacing mine in a couple of years and I'd certainly like to pay less....LOL!!!

Right now, all I've read is that LR are putting up the prices....:mad:

Cheers,

Kev.

[Celtoid]

Hi Tusker,
Test drove the Mercedes ML350 before buying the RR Sport, not sure that because the Jeep is now part Mercedes necesarily means that it is all OK these days. Must admit that the pricing on the Jeep is attractive though.
Regards
Barryp


Didn't Ssangyong have MB equipment? Say no more....:wasntme: ;)

[Tusker]

Hi Tusker,
Test drove the Mercedes ML350 before buying the RR Sport, not sure that because the Jeep is now part Mercedes necesarily means that it is all OK these days. Must admit that the pricing on the Jeep is attractive though.
Regards
Barryp

I have an idea that Jeep & Benz have parted company, & Chrysler is tied up with Fiat these days. Anyway, the ride/steering handling is very un-american. To my mind the Jeep rides better than the Mercedes, but that could be simply the 18"s v the ultra low profile rubber on the Mercedes.

Regards
Max P

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Jeep must be better than the D4. Have you noticed how many unrelated ads Jeeps are appearing in lately where it used to be RRc. ;)

The GIO lifetime replacement ad is one of the latest.

[andrewchr]

I have an idea that Jeep & Benz have parted company, & Chrysler is tied up with Fiat these days. Anyway, the ride/steering handling is very un-american. To my mind the Jeep rides better than the Mercedes, but that could be simply the 18"s v the ultra low profile rubber on the Mercedes.

Regards
Max P

That was my feeling too. The sport had the edge on the jeep which had the edge on the merc. The 4 star safety rating and the dodgy head rests in the rear seat of the jeep pushed us to the sport. When you look at what you get for the money the jeep was tempting.
Andrew

[Cruiserlux]

We've had our GC for about 5 months now. Can't fault it so far. The diesel is fantastic for towing, Good on road manners. Couple of short offroad trips so far and it goes everywhere the 100 series cruiser would go but easier.

Air suspension is definitely not as good as LR, but its not bad by any means.

Choice for us D4 or GC the GC came in under the Luxury car threshold with all the gadgets that we want.

So, the wife gets the GC and I can now get a Defender 130. :p

Long range tank is already available from Long Range Automotive and gives an additional 75 litres. Should be good for up to 1800 k's between fills.

[AnD3rew]

I have an idea that Jeep & Benz have parted company, & Chrysler is tied up with Fiat these days. Anyway, the ride/steering handling is very un-american. To my mind the Jeep rides better than the Mercedes, but that could be simply the 18"s v the ultra low profile rubber on the Mercedes.

Regards
Max P

Yep, Fiat now owns Chrysler, and I think the diesel in the GC is a Fiat motor.

[TerryO]

2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee passes German "moose test" (http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/29/2012-jeep-grand-cherokee-passes-german-moose-test/)

Well maybe the Overland failed the Swedish Moose test But it did not fail the German Moose Test. Do they even have Moose in Germany? ...:o

Above is link to an interesting rebuttal to the claims by the Swedish mag on the Overland failing the Moose Test. It was carried out by a German mag who did similar testing and reckon the Swedes overloaded the Jeep to get those results.

Hmmm! ...bloody Euro's who do you believe? ...:angel:

Cheers,
Terry

[DiscoDavey]

This quote below is from cars.com and this poor review is not on its own. Perhaps they still have some problems to iron out! Also notice Jeep have a Grand Cherokee 'Jet' limited edition that is very similar to D4's new "Black Pack" - black; grills, wheels and liftgate. Wonder who is copying who? If nothing else it shows Jeep have LR firmly in their sites!!

"I loved my 2012 Laredo X 4x4 when I first purchased it. But now that it has 8k miles on it the suspension rattles and thumps constantly. There is a humming vibration when accelerating up hills, and my 4x4 systems stopped functioning and had to be towed off the beach with my family in it. All these problems are well documented on the Jeep forums around the internet. There are no fixes for any of these problems either, I still can't take my 4x4 Jeep on the beach (going on over 4 months now since it broke) because it is not capable and Jeep has not released an update."

Think I'll stick with the D4.

[TerryO]

This quote below is from cars.com and this poor review is not on its own. Perhaps they still have some problems to iron out! Also notice Jeep have a Grand Cherokee 'Jet' limited edition that is very similar to D4's new "Black Pack" - black; grills, wheels and liftgate. Wonder who is copying who? If nothing else it shows Jeep have LR firmly in their sites!!

Think I'll stick with the D4.

Several car makers have done 'Black Packs' HSV did one at the end of 2010 so it's not a unique concept to LR nor were they the first.

Much of the criticism of the new Overland is based on the failed Moose Test, but if it was set up to fail as the other mag has basically said after they did their own tests then maybe most of the criticism is baseless.

Have you actually found any Jeep forums where people are bagging the new GC? if so could you please provide the addresses as I would like to read the comments as I am interested in finding out more about these things, good or bad.

So far I have only found Jeep forums with owners raving on about them being some kind of wonder car compared to previous models.

Like with all forums, one must try and put everything in context, if a potential new D4 LR owner found Aulro for the first time and checked out this section on any average day after reading the headings of the first 20' topics I'd reckon most would run away quickly. People do not tend to start forum topics based on good experiences, rather the opposite, as has been said on here many times before.

cheers,
Terry

[Tombie]

Jeep owners, like LR owners are very defensive of their brand.

I have driven the GC (Hemi version) and its nice, but then so is the current Prado... (I drive one daily here on site)

Neither are a patch on the D4 for comfort or capability.

[DiscoDavey]

Several car makers have done 'Black Packs'. HSV did one at the end of 2010 so it's not a unique concept to LR nor were they the first.

Have you actually found any Jeep forums where people are bagging the new GC? If so could you please provide the addresses


Jeep Forum - Jeep Enthusiast Network (http://www.jeepforum.com)
See thread "2012 Transmission problems"

If you are saying that forum threads are started (generally) by negative experiences (like AULRO, as you say) then why are all the Jeep forums you visited so positive? Not sure it makes sense. Still I do agree with you - nothing makes a good story like a negative one! It is just that there are plenty of negative threads on Jeep forums too.

And to clarify, I wasn't saying "Black Packs" were unique to LR. I was just noting that of all the marketing tools/cons at car manufacturers disposal, they chose the same one LR are about to launch. As far as I can tell the JGC is the most direct competition to the LR D4 and RRS. The timing is not by accident.

[TerryO]

Thanks for the link, good to read about potential issues, your correct there is a thread on there about a transmission fault on the six speed mated to the 5.7 litre V8.The Yanks don't have the diesel GC yet til 2014 so only have the V8's and petrol six.

The diesel has a five speed that has a long history of being very strong and almost unbreakable, I have owned several vehicles with that five speed in them and never had an issue.
As I said in my first post the five speed is ok but it isn't as good as the LR six speed and is possibly the biggest let down on the new Jeep.

cheers,
Terry

[NavyDiver]

Got a drive today. The moose test and their arguments is interesting but 4wd of the year made me think it worth a look.

Initial impressions, The Good- lot of kit, very good rear camera and 4wd systems very like my D3. Drive wise- a little more noise, a lighter car and car like handling- It seemed a very good diesel engine. Seats very good, fit out was first rate
The bad- Left foot was clearly suffering from the LHD conversion to a RHD. I did not like my left foot being forced far away from it normal resting position and I am sure I would hate it after several hours driving
The very bad
I dropped the back wheels off a little slope near me( photo below), The front wheel was still on flat ground at the top. It was green grass but fairly dry. Trying to move forward had one rear wheel slipping. Low range, first gear and 4wd mode selected and the same thing with the car moving “Backwards” not forwards. DSC off – Ditto back down the slope with only one wheel seeming to try to provide any forward motion while slipping. At the bottom I tried driving up and failed It has road rubber on.
Took my D3 back without 4wd modes, without low range and in auto it easily moved the back wheels only off and also easily drove up and down the slope with no special setting engaged and now wheel spin- OK -I have AT tires on do this is not fair. I took a Lexus RX350 back with road tires and little Offroad credibility- guess what The Lexus was clearly better on this patch of grass then the Cherokee. :eek:
The Jeep Grand Cherokee is not nearly as good 4wd. apparently an Off road pack puts a Limited slip diff on and 18inch rims. It would need that kit as I seemed to have only one rear wheel driving the Cherokee in my simple test. Quadra-Drive® II and Quadra-Lift™ where on the test car. I am not one eyed and was looking with a real possiblity if it was really 4wd of the year to look at one to replace my D3 when/if needed over the next year or two

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/11/1330.jpg:angel:

[rmp]

That's embarrasing for Drive. I thought it was an April Fool's joke.

OK to answer the question - 4X4 of the year awards do need criteria. I don't know what criteria was used for this award, so it's hard to say which is best.

I have driven both vehicles and while the Jeep is good onroad, it's not quite as good as the Disco, and while it's great offroad, so is the Disco.

The D4 kills it for 7-seater versatility and refinement though, not to mention payload and loadspace. But the Jeep is cheaper, is a good car and tows 3500kg in most variants. So it's a pretty good grey nomad caravan-puller.

As for the moose test - I don't normally post to my own blog, but I'm seeing statements made without knowledge of the facts. Full details here:

Jeep Grand Cherokee fails elk test? Full analysis: UPDATED 15/08/2012 | 4WD Book & 4X4 News (http://www.4wdhandbook.com/rmp/blog/jeep-grand-cherokee-fails-elk-test-rollover-moose-test)

[Graeme]

The air suspension lifts 2.5 inches in off road mode and doesn't lower until 80 kph.For those people eyeing-off the Jeep's air suspension, whilst its OR2 height is stated as 2.6", the "80" kph limited height is OR1 at 1.3" and that's only if the speed is kept below 64 kph or temporarily up to 77 kph for a maximum of 20 seconds. It provides less height than LR's off-road height albeit with a 15 kph higher speed limit for continued use. However in a few days time I will know if the Llams height controller works with these vehicles and can therefore provide the same unrestricted speed for off-road OR1 and OR2 raised and Aero lowered heights as it does for LRs. If it works then at least initially it will be only hard-wired rather than plug-in.

[clubagreenie]

I'd fail the moose test in a defender too. Hit it, wrap the winch under car and over roof and drag moose onto bonnet and take home for dinner.

[Graeme]

The Llams height controller is not compatible with the Jeep's sensor signals however I now have the necessary information to ponder the design of an equivalent system.

[~Rich~]

Hi Graeme, since the market for such a device would be huge in the US is there not anything already developed for it over there?
If not and you can do it you would sell heaps of them.

[Graeme]

I scanned the net looking for any info on the quadra-lift system and all I found apart from sales blurbs and an erroneous motoring writer's comments was the occasional person having experierenced a couple of unknown faults.

After seeing the Jeep owner off I did some proper thinking and realised it wasn't much of a task to handle the different signal, so called him back an hour into his journey home to try a revised program. However I couldn't get past first base so off he went home again after another hour or so wasted. I've just spotted a simple coding error that was causing the program to be very wayward but will build a proper test module to replicate the sensor signals before the next vehicle test. I can definitely do it with only minor handling of the input signal and tailoring the output signal to the Jeep specific format and also without any circuit changes. There is no guess-work whereas there was with the development for the LR system.

I don't think I would drive one at their full OR2 height very quickly because at that height the suspension tops-out on almost every bump/rut on my driveway, but OR1 or perhaps a little higher might be very useful. I doubt I'll find the necessary ecu connectors to make it plug and play but there's easy access to the wiring to do a hard-wiring connection.

[~Rich~]

You might have to open a workshop in the US to fit the kits. ;)
Perhaps California or Utah.
(Only kidding)

[gghaggis]

Be wary of American litigation - can have quite a bite!
Especially if hard-wired in.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Graeme]

With more exhaustive bench testing still to be done, the module is now processing the input signals and switch settings correctly. However I don't want Llams to get a bad name if Jeeps can't handle the higher height at speed so may need to only provide their OR1 so that when used with native OR1 they effectively get OR2 up to 77 kph briefly or 64 kph continually. The OR1 equivalent would be unlimited.

[TerryO]

Chances are we will own a new 8 speed diesel Grand Cherokee before the year is out Graeme, so I for one would be interested in a fully functioning Llams unit with extended lift.

Out of interest how much extra lift can you safely get out of one without it topping out all the time?

cheers,
Terry

[Graeme]

The vehicle was topping out creeping over my driveway ruts on OR2 so I suspect that another OR1 or similar increment wouldn't leave much movement but I will try the vehicle at faster speeds assuming Llams fitment goes to plan to see how it compares with the Disco. I hope the owner doesn't object too loudly as the vehicle is so new.

Do you think that you would want unrestricted speed for OR2 height if there's very little movement? I thought that 65/80 would be plenty fast enough under those conditions because I would expect the vehicle to be tossed around too much by the bumps. However OR1 might be a little low for high crown outback roads although their exhausts don't hang as low as it does on Discos. The only reason for Llams providing OR1 height is so that effectively only the speed limit is removed.

The plan is to fit and tailor late this week. However once the loom is fitted the module can be swapped without having to visit so minor adjustments will be possible. I hope to decide by the end of this next session whether to have 1 or 2 raised heights as if only 1 raised height then I'd limit the switch movement and could also omit program code to honour the highest setting. The vehicle owner is intending to take the vehicle off-road for the 1st time in the upcoming school holidays so I expect to get some useful feedback before too long. Hence it may be worthwhile to leave the 2 heights enabled at least for a while.

Extended lift would be possible just with Llams OR1 added to native OR2 without having a Llams OR2. Hopefully there will be some good practical test results next w/e.

[TerryO]

Hi Graeme,

It still would be nice to know how much extra usable height one can get from a Grand Cherokee if Llams was fitted.

If it was like the unit on a D3/4 where the Llams full extension dropped back down once it got to its preset speed that would be fine as full Llams extension is only used in really rough situations anyway.

Given how many of these things are being sold here in Oz I would imagine the market for them could be potentially quite extensive once people new this was available.

cheers,
Terry

[Graeme]

It would work the same way as the LR version because it would provide raised height whilst on the normal height setting therefore without a speed limit and would raise the OR1 height to OR2 with OR1's speed limit. The dilema is whether to provide OR2 height without any speed limit or provide for only 64 kph continuous which isn't much good for high crown outback gravel roads, unless OR1 is high enough.

[barney]

Havent driven the latest cherokee, but the last one I drove back to back with hte D4 in 2011. The jeep was set up to copy the d4, but didnt hit the mark, wheel travel was not as good, so the air suspension clunked and thuded. The inside was nice, comfortable and well laid out. It drove well and handled well, but no where near as well as the D4.
THe new cherokee is supposed to be loads better, Tusker has bought one as a 3rd car for touring, he still has the defender for anything serious. ?
If I wanted a comfortable 4wd that had an interior spec level of the D4, for the price of a Defender, I'd give one a look for sure.

[TerryO]

The clunking and banging in early current model GC's was found out to be because of faulty rear shocks. I believe they have fixed that issue.

New update model that comes out mid year apart from a 8 speed supposedly has all new Terrain Response programming so should be improved on that front.

With a LLams kit fitted and the standard ediff that comes in the Overland model they should be reasonably good off road. Time will tell.

cheers,
Terry

[Disco4SE]

As most would probably know, I had the D4 3.0Lt and have downscaled to a 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited.
It has the Mercedes 3.0Lt diesel and running gear.
The engine is very quiet & smooth.....more so than the D4.
The Limited spec gives you electric memory leather seats, navigation, electric sunroof, auto wipers etc etc etc.
Have since added a 3" lift kit, second battery, GDE ECU power upgrade, 3" exhaust system, bigger wheels & tyres, and a few other bits.

The Limited model comes standard with the Quadradrive 11 system that provides a locking front & rear diff as well as traction control. Only had it 10 weeks and haven't had a chance to take it off road as yet, but from what I am told, they are extremely capable.

The power upgrade means that I now have the same power & torque as the D4 3.0Lt in a vehicle that is 500Kg lighter. It will accelerate to 100Kph in around 7.4 seconds and pull my boat etc with ease.
The vehicle including all my add ons has cost just under $30K. Not bad considering what I now have.

I must admit, you cannot beat the ride of the D4's air suspension. Best out of any vehicle I have owned.

Now for the bagging...........:p:p:p:p

Cheers, Craig

[theresanothersteve]

These car of the year awards are a joke.

The Falcon 4 cyl turbo has won a few. And look how many of those have sold, the market showing what it thinks...

[ozscott]

That new Jeep is a nice machine. It is amazing value for money. I wouldnt have purchased one when they came out but by now things are getting ironed out - like any totally new platform. Its a nice looking thing - especially with black treatment on mags, and the off road gear. Their diesel engine is a very good thing.

Cheers

[Graeme]

It appears that there will be a Llams for the Jeeps as there is now a Jeep with a working Llams system which only needs some fine tuning for height. It will provide an unlimited and probably higher OR1 because OR1 isn't very high but I don't want to provide unlimited OR2. I doubt that connectors will be obtainable so only hard wired and therefore not nearly as attractive or easy to fit as LRs, but at least one solution. The Llams module uses slightly different electronics to the LR version and also has slightly different programming to support the quite different sensor signal format.

[TerryO]

I guess the question that needs to be asked Graeme is will it be easy to take out the Llams unit and reverse the wiring back to standard?

I can't imagine Jeep wold look to kindly on a new Llams fitted GC turning up for a service or warranty issue. Same goes for a modded wiring loom.

[CSBrisie]

The vehicle including all my add ons has cost just under $30K. Not bad considering what I now have.



That is exceptional value - especially if the car had never been off road before you bought it.:)

[Disco4SE]

That is exceptional value - especially if the car had never been off road before you bought it.:)
No, never been off road Stornoway, and only country klm's.

Cheers, Craig

[Graeme]

I guess the question that needs to be asked Graeme is will it be easy to take out the Llams unit and reverse the wiring back to standard?

I can't imagine Jeep wold look to kindly on a new Llams fitted GC turning up for a service or warranty issue. Same goes for a modded wiring loom.
In this installation the wiring is well hidden with the module no-where in sight. It produces a signal so close to the original when OFF that it is extremely unlikely to be detectable by diagnostics. However it would be quite a task to remove the wiring. Loom connectors would be very desireable for both initial fitment and ease of removal.

Only 1 raised height has been provided. In normal ride height mode the Llams lift is 50mm at the front and 45mm at the rear so 15 mm higher than OR1 without being speed limited, OR1+Llams is 10-15 mm higher than OR2 with OR1 speed limit and OR2+ Llams provides +40 mm above OR2 at the rear before the system faults, seemingly not able to extract any more air from the reservoir to raise the front - a disadvantage of a sealed system. Feedback on the current setup over the next few weeks will be considered before any are offered for sale.

A fault repeatedly occurred above about 20 kph over some very deep pot-holes where front and rear wheels got airborne (as did the passenger!) yet did not fault going quite slowly nor when using just OR1. No faults occurred when balancing across a ditch but each time both front wheels retained at least some weight, albeit very little at times, which might not occur with the back laden for a trip. My suggestion is to use OR1 & OR2 when climbing over rocks but OR1+Llams can be tried for a little more clearance, or OR2+Llams if stuck.

NRH+Llams provides a seemingly stable and generally-accepted safe 45-50mm height increase for outback touring, which is consistant with Llams' primary target use. OR1 height was considered insufficient for such use yet still didn't allow OR2+Llams. OR1+Llams could be useful when crossing water.

My D4/D3 rides the bumps soooo much better! Lesser pot-holes driven at 60 kph in the D4 with Llams at medium are felt as a bit of a rough patch (I do it every time) yet after trying them in the Jeep at the same speed at NRH+Llams, one would never do it again for both the occupants' and the vehicle's sake. However I don't know what the Jeep's tyre pressures were.

[Gribbsmy13]

Hi all new member. I can say from experience that the jeep still hasn't shaken off its electrical issues. I had to get rid if mine after only 12 months, it was that bad, unbelievable to drive when all was good though. Test driving an my13 tdv6 today, as it looks as though that will be the replacement.

[Graeme]

I guess the question that needs to be asked Graeme is will it be easy to take out the Llams unit and reverse the wiring back to standard?
A quick to fit plug-in Llams kit for the GC with raised heights of 33mm (OR1) and 50mm is expected to be available in the 2nd quarter of 2014. Consideration is being given to an alternate long harness to allow the suspension control module to be relocated out of the well in the floor, perhaps to under the dash if there's somewhere to mount it.

[DazzaTD5]

Hi all, I have only just joined AULRO and as someone that works on both Land Rover and Jeep, this is a really interesting thread. This seems to draw a lot of interest from people here and some of the comments are spot on the money.

My own personal comparison in servicing and repairing both brands I can certainly relate to the comments made.

I'm always comparing that same year for year models and I tend to jump from Jeep to Land Rover and back again depending upon the issue.

My own thoughts...
The Jeep Grand Cherokee from 2006 on (the K series Jeeps) are a different breed of vehicle and are way ahead of Jeeps of old for design, engineering and build quality. Cheap Jeep feel interior is the norm, especially on base models. The Merc engine first used in the WH and the early WK (the rest of the world call the models a WK, WK2) are a great engine and I see ones with over 400,000kms and still running as smooth as ever. The new VM Motori turbo diesel V6 is another step forward again over the old Merc engine. The buy price on the Grand Cherokee is hard to go past, its like getting a free 4WD when you buy a set of steak knives!!! ring now!!! And yes Chrysler is pretty well owned by Fiat, Fiat also jointly own VM Motori, with GM from memory.

Land Rover D3, RRS 2006 on, I cant say I'm a great fan of Ford engines, the V6 turbo diesels run smooth and I see a few that are now pushing 300,000kms still going strong. I spose over the years Ive got used to the Ford quirks that have found there way into Land Rovers. Thats not to say Jaguar Land Rover are strangers to "quirks" in their models, as no doubt plenty here know. As a 4WD compare year for year and the Land Rovers will generally walk all over the Jeep off road and then some or any other 4WD for that matter. The design, chassis and suspension engineering and dynamics have always been brilliant in a Land Rover. But I hate to say it, I probably have more issues with the newer generation of Land Rovers than I do with the new generation of Jeeps.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee offers unreal value for money, a lot of 4WD for your money! but saying that, Id have a 2006 2.7TD RRS over a new 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee anyday!!

That video is crazy, thats going pretty dam hard in a 4WD, is there a video of a D3 or RRS doing the same test, now I would like to see that!!

Regards
Daz

[Daks99]

Just went from late 11 gc limited to disco my 13

Night and day. Jeep is a piece of poor quality, many many issues with it. Disco is driving on a cloud.

[Gribbsmy13]

Daks99... You didn't get a refund too did you?