Steering stop bolts

[uninformed]

hey all,

vehicle: 1998 110 tdi.

My steering stop bolts have bent. These are NOT OEM. I bought new replacement 8.8 bolts. Problem is I dont think the heads are big enough to work correctly. The head rather than hit the corner/face of the swivel ball/ axle flange, it slides across the outer edge. I just fitted a brand new non OEM bolt, finger tight to the correct width and then low speed steer on my driveway. I could only just feel the contact and in no way did it stop the steering. It just bent the new bolt.

Now while Im guessing doing the bolt up tight may help it somewhat, I feel the bolt is being bent and not compressed???

Do the OEM bolts have larger heads? (what size spanner fits them?) Or am I missing something (other than a functional brain)

cheers
Serg

[goingbush]

On the Td5 Defender there is a Tang that the Stop Bolt bumps into

My stop bolt is screwed right in & the tyre rubs on the RA before the bolt touches but you get the idea in the pic.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/08/654.jpg

[uninformed]

thanks,

no tang/tab on mine and I cant ever recall one. I think the bolt is ment to be stepped, as in a larger dia and head outboard of the threaded section that screws into the swivel housing.....

[Judo]

I'm quite certain my Disco doesn't have a tab like that...

I might have even posted a pic of it in another thread not long ago.... I'll have a quick look and can show you where mine hits.

[Judo]

No tab. Hits where i've drawn the circle.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/01/1208.jpg

[rick130]

No tang on mine either mate.

I'll check the head size of the OE bolt and get back to you.

[uninformed]

Bolts I had are M12 coarse with 18mm hex. They skid across the edge face, nit hit the corner as in Judo's pic.

[TimNZ]

Serg, having a look at the part for the bolt, (AFU1234, FTC4111, or SH112505), they all appear to be normal M12 x50mm Bolts.

Has the thread of the bolt hole distorted allowing the bolt to sit at an angle? You could always fit the tang, TAU100170 to slove the problem? Britcar (UK) Ltd > TAU100170 BRACKET (G) (http://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php?xProd=133089)

Cheers,

Tim

[rick130]

19mm hex on mine.

I wouldn't have thought 0.5mm at the hitting point would've made a difference ?

[Judo]

19mm hex here too.

Probably a stupid question, but are you sure you haven't just got it screwed in too far? It looks like it would miss the edge if it was just screwed in way too far. :confused:

[uninformed]

Hmmmmm. Setting it as per rave. A stock 50mm bolt is not long enough to be set at correct length and have the lock nut on the back side. Winding them in further would allow more housing angle and actually be better for bolt to flange angle/contact. At correct setting it s to shallow and skims across the face...

[wagoo]

I wouldn't have thought bolt head size would make any difference. If the bolts are bending then the force is being applied outside of the radius of the bolt shank I would imagine. If adjusting for either more or less steering angle places the pressure point outside the bolt shank radius, you could alter the angle of the swivel ball flange at the pressure point with a die grinder.
Bill

[Jode]

uninformed -
I've been musing over this same issue with our 110 300 TDI from '95 - it also likes to bend the stops. Our first landie was a 110 built in RSA during sanctions, and IIRC its stops were big lumps of steel with a bolt head at the lumpy end and a short threaded end that screwed through the swivle housing and out the other side for locking with a lock nut at the other end. These never bent.

My plan (if I evr get around to it...) is to buy some fresh, straight bolts and try to source (or maybe get turned on a lathe) a sleeve the thickeness of the bolt head. I'd cut these to the correct length once I'd set the stops up with the front on axle stands so that I could be sure that they stop the wheel before the tyres rub, then slide them onto the bolts, screw the bolts in and screw the lock nut on.

Maybe you could do something similar?

[uninformed]

I wouldn't have thought bolt head size would make any difference. If the bolts are bending then the force is being applied outside of the radius of the bolt shank I would imagine. If adjusting for either more or less steering angle places the pressure point outside the bolt shank radius, you could alter the angle of the swivel ball flange at the pressure point with a die grinder.
Bill

Problem is bill its not hitting the face or corner of the flange, its sliding across thout OD of it and the axle flange.

See attached pics:

first is a standard 60mm M12 8.8 bolt. Nice and straight, adjusted to 55mm including the casting. Note that there is only 10mm max of exposed thread on the back side for the lock nut.....if I was using a 50mm bolt there would be none.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/53087d1352619663-steering-stop-bolts-steering-stop-bolt-001-rs.jpg

second pic is at turn with bolt almost touching...at this point there was only 50mm between the opposing tyre and RA. Manual says min of 20mm gap... so 30mm at the OD of tyre isnt going to be much more wind in of bolt at stop. So even winding it in a few more mm, it still would not hit the corner or face of flange.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/53088d1352619693-steering-stop-bolts-steering-stop-bolt-002-rs.jpg

[rick130]

It would only take a degree or two off in the machining of the lock stop bolt hole in the swivel, or the swivel somewhere else, or the axle tube flange to have these bolts miss and skid like yours.

Here's mine.

!! Actually, get some 19mm headed bolts and have the hex oriented as mine are and see how it goes.
Notice you have the flat on yours is in the same plane as the flange ? (two flats are parallel to the ground)
Have the point of the hex pointed at the axle flange.
This gives more area to hit the flange.
I think I twigged to this really early on when trying to maximise lock.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=53090&stc=1&d=1352621568

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=53091&stc=1&d=1352621648

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=53092&stc=1&d=1352621648

[uninformed]

I think its going to be one of those things where the bolt shop looks at me like im a goose and tells me the dia/thread determins the hex and that M12 is 18mm and thats that!.....

I notice your bolt is threaded all the way, Im guessing its only 50mm long. And going by your pic it looks you have it in a good 10mm more than mine....I think that along with the touch bigger hex may allow it to land where it should.

One of my thoughts were good old LR machining skills.......:D

when I googled the other day, I found a topic on LR4x4 and they mentioned a stepped bolt that is bigger in dia than the thread going through the casting...no pic though. I took this as being OEM

[rick130]

Two alternatives.

An OE stop bolt (mightn't be as dear as we all think ?)

Get a larger bolt with a larger head (22mm ?) and turn it down to an M12 thread.

[wagoo]

So how come Serg's swivel ball flanges are chamfered and Ricks are not?
Does your truck have Railko bushes Serg? If so maybe they are worn oval ?
Bill.

[uninformed]

well spotted Bill. I have no idea. AFAIK my front assembly is all original and im sure Ricks is as well....both are 98 defenders.

What are railko bushes Bill? are these the king pin bushes vs a bearing?

[wagoo]

well spotted Bill. I have no idea. AFAIK my front assembly is all original and im sure Ricks is as well....both are 98 defenders.

What are railko bushes Bill? are these the king pin bushes vs a bearing?

The top swivel bearing is a fibre bushing fitted to the swivel ball into which fits a steel pin that is bolted to the top of the outer swivel housing. The pin and bush have parrallel sides (not tapered), so there is no proper means of adjusting for wear. If either or both pin and bush are worn eccentric then on full lock the swivel radius may vary.Or if they are loose the lock stop bolt can deflect on lock.
Bill.

Edit, I think your vehicle does have Railkos. A photo a little higher up of the upper part of the swivel assembly should confirm it.

[wagoo]

With the wheel off the ground, apply the foot brake with a stick or similar and try to rock the wheel to feel for king pin play. try it at several different degrees of steering lock. Also rock the wheel back and forth at different steering angles to check for looseness .

[rick130]

[snip]

Edit, I think your vehicle does have Railkos. A photo a little higher up of the upper part of the swivel assembly should confirm it.

I highly doubt it Bill, it's a late model swivel housing as it doesn't have the drain or level plugs.

Good pickup on the chamfer. ;)

[isuzutoo-eh]

My county has 22mm hex head steering stop bolts. There'd be about 5mm contact against the chamfered flange. It must have a stepped shaft or else the shaft is enormous. Can upload photos if required.

[wagoo]

I highly doubt it Bill, it's a late model swivel housing as it doesn't have the drain or level plugs.

Good pickup on the chamfer. ;)
You are probably correct Rick,but I wouldn't put it past LandRover to build some vehicles for the Colonies with left over obsolete components. They did it occasionally on Series vehicles.
bill.

[Jode]

My county has 22mm hex head steering stop bolts. There'd be about 5mm contact against the chamfered flange. It must have a stepped shaft or else the shaft is enormous. Can upload photos if required.
Here is a drawing cut from the 1984 LR workshop manual, which shows what seems to be a stepped bolt:

53137

You'll notice that the threaded portion is visibly thinner than the shaft below the bolt head. Maybe this little fella will sort out the bends.

[Jode]

Next time I'll try to insert the piccie so that it's visible in the thread....

[uninformed]

I ordered some OEM bolts from my local LR mechanic. I didnt bother asking what the differences are of different steering stop bolts over the years as I figure this would just add to confusion. I just gave them "98 110 defender". I wanted to see what would be supplied.

Part# FTC 4111 (one of the ones TimNZ listed

Length: from underside of head is 55mm long, 10mm of smooth shank, standard M12 thread.

Hex size: 22mm (Bingo, we have a winner!!!)

I only just walked in the door and am yet to fit them, but Im thinking they are going to work. I will be setting them up, then cutting some ERW tube to fit tightly between underside of head and the swivel housing....

thanks for all the help.

PS while Im under there I will snap some pics for Bill to further discuss the top Bush/bearing set up....

[uninformed]

so I finally got around to fitting these bolts (put off due to the fact I was going to fit crush tubes as well)......

using the new OEM 22mm hex head bolt, I fitted it, did some very slow speed steering to check lock adjustment, feel the inside tyre just start to rub the RA.

Yep, the bolt bent first try. I did not feel ANYTHING. (yes I was feeling for it) Again it skims across the outside edge of the swivel/axle flange.

I pulled this bolt out and fitted the other one, turned the wheel and could see there was no way, even with alinging it as per Rick's sugestion, that it was going to land on the corner with any amount of material.

I have no clue now???

[wagoo]

Assuming you have checked the swivel bearings for excess play, that is very wierd Serg.Does it do it on both right and left hand sides?In addition to the chamfer, I wonder if the diameter or thickness of the swivel ball flanges are below spec? Can you and Ric measure them for comparison?
What size tyres and rim offset? If the tyre is touching the RA,maybe the panhard rod, due to suspension lift is pulling the axle offcenter and you aren't able to screw the stop bolt in far enough? I've got splinters under my fingernails from excess scratching of the old noggin.
Still reckon the bolt should make contact with the flange within the radius of the bolt shank, unlike on Rics example where the contact mark is outside the radius.
Bill.

[justinc]

i have seen them bent too, but not very common. late td5 i think 2002 on? and puma defers have a small plate bolted to the flange which may help prevent this, using the 2 bolts at the frnt of the flange as a mounting. The plate extends out over the edge of the flange, and is shaped slightly to ensure it doesn't kick the bolt head off to one side.
I am assuming that they did this to prevent bolt bending, as the turning circle is increased in these later models, and the bolts having to be unscrewed further to accomodate this means they will hit on a different angle and bend.

jc

[uninformed]

235/85R16 Goodyear Wrangler MTR fitted to Landrover 130/wolf rims (6.5 inch wide). I have just put these on. Prior I had the same tyres on 7 inch wide Mach 5 rims with 12-20mm more outboard offset. The tyres never rubbed before and the bolts were definitely bent. Its just the LR rims with less offset. Im pretty sure the bolt is mounting same both sides.

I had replced the bolts once before after I had run my 9/34 swampers out west. I wound the bolts out to stop tyre rub, but they bent within the hr of playing. I havent really ever had a problem with tyre rub due to the Mach 5 rims. Id say the bolt problem has always been there???

[rick130]

i have seen them bent too, but not very common. late td5 i think 2002 on? and puma defers have a small plate bolted to the flange which may help prevent this, using the 2 bolts at the frnt of the flange as a mounting. The plate extends out over the edge of the flange, and is shaped slightly to ensure it doesn't kick the bolt head off to one side.
I am assuming that they did this to prevent bolt bending, as the turning circle is increased in these later models, and the bolts having to be unscrewed further to accomodate this means they will hit on a different angle and bend.

jc


Goingbush has a good photo up the top of the first page showing the plate. ;)

[justinc]

Ooops, Sorry that'll teach me to read/ view more carefully.



JC

[uninformed]

On the Td5 Defender there is a Tang that the Stop Bolt bumps into

My stop bolt is screwed right in & the tyre rubs on the RA before the bolt touches but you get the idea in the pic.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/08/654.jpg

hey mate, looking at your pic, the little tab is bent on the end. Is this factory for it to be square-ish to the bolt head, or has it simply just bent?

[justinc]

Serge, that is how they are shaped, on an angle like that to contact the bolt head properly.

JC

[uninformed]

thanks JC, I drew my own design up and PSimpson turned them into CAD (all of about 2mins!!!) when I get them cut I will have a little mill work to do. I dont mind, gives me a simple task to learn some stuff on.