Idiots and rattle guns

[TD50WA]

A couple of months ago I went to a well known specialist off road store and had some mtz tyres fitted in the 32" size.
First of all the "experts" said these wouldn't fit.....yes they do....mmmmm

Then just this weekend gone I found out that the numb*#%^ who did the job obviously used a rattle gun to do the wheel nuts up.

I was changing my suspension and of course this entails wheel removal. Normal tools would not undo even one nut on any of the four wheels. Now I have my own rattle gun and used this to undo the nuts....I only managed to get 5 of the 20 nuts off with a rattle gun!

I ended up using a 6' extension pipe on a socket bar to crack the remaining nuts all the time waiting for that snapped stud sound.....or my back giving out!

Now imagine being out in the bush, on your own on a stinker of a day and getting a flat.......this could be a life ender.....seriously.

You would think that a specialist 4wd store would have more sense than your local tyre dealer as to the repercussions of remote travel....obviously not.

The morale of this story is when you get some work done, particularly this type, check to see if tensions/adjustments are correct, or this scenario could cost you dearly.

Not happy jan!:mad:

Cheers all
Kev

[schuy1]

I totally agree with you! To the extent now I watch them do the nuts up after telling them how tight I want them, and I still recheck when I get home. As you say it could be a life incident, I have come across a vehicle and occupants immobilized because of this exact thing. they were not in danger just very inconvenienced.
Really cannot stress it enough that people recheck the nuts before venturing into the wilds.

[alien]

Ive got into the habit of loosening and retightning wheel nuts once I get home.
If they can't be undone with the wheel brace it goes back.

A simple wheel change doesn't need to become a trip changeing drama:mad:
This can be worse if you have locknuts.

The only exeption is the work truck where I watch them tourque the nuts.

[Blknight.aus]

no they are morons who dont know how to read or set torque values.

Work Accident Photos–WARNING VERY GRAPHIC (http://www.safetyrisk.com.au/2011/10/01/work-accident-photoswarning-very-graphic/)

the person with the nut wound finger from that link is an idiot with a rattle gun.

Graphics warning level BLuuurgh..... you might loose your cookies over some of the images.

[Chops]

Had the same thing with my D2, but what made it worse was they used the gun on the locknuts. Ended up finally getting them off and getting new nuts to replace the locks.
Inconsiderate tossers that don't know their job, and probably don't care anyway.

[Yorkie]

just recently had all tyres replace on mine, after 2wks and a weekend camping . spotted last weekend one nut missing from the drivers front, checked the nuts on that wheel and one was finger loose:eek:, the rest needed tightening with the wheel brace. checked all the other wheels and all nuts need a tweak to come tight so i thing they used the wrong torque bar.
store in question checked cctv and confirmed the fitter worked all four corners but of course could not see if correct tools used, they are replacing the lost nut and will look over it all at the weekend. :)

[goingbush]

no they are morons who dont know how to read or set torque values.

Work Accident Photos–WARNING VERY GRAPHIC (http://www.safetyrisk.com.au/2011/10/01/work-accident-photoswarning-very-graphic/)

the person with the nut wound finger from that link is an idiot with a rattle gun.

Graphics warning level BLuuurgh..... you might loose your cookies over some of the images.

Yah , too true, I havent stuck a rattle gun on my finger but
the guy with the wire in the eye resembles an injury I had,
I lost a lot of eye fluid & gave myself a cataract, had to get a Fred Hollows implant and a cornea graft.

And I had a lawnmower blade smash my side window as I was driving past some guy mowing his nature strip, Lucky I had the window up.
EVERY time I drive past anyone mowing now its windows up & turn my head away from the mower.

[rovercare]

Yah , too true, I havent stuck a rattle gun on my finger but
the guy with the wire in the eye resembles an injury I had,
I lost a lot of eye fluid & gave myself a cataract, had to get a Fred Hollows implant and a cornea graft.

And I had a lawnmower blade smash my side window as I was driving past some guy mowing his nature strip, Lucky I had the window up.
EVERY time I drive past anyone mowing now its windows up & turn my head away from the mower.

I went to emergency a few nights ago, triage nurse takes my name, looks at me and says foreign body in eye, yep I reply, she says thought so, your history says it all....

Ironically enough, I pull out the jigsaw to cut out for a temp controller on a control box for a powder coating oven for a job, put safety glasses on, a bit of steel flicks up and deflects of my glasses into my eye, got that one out myself, 2 in 2 weeks

Rattle guns undo, torque wrenches/breaker bars do up

[Franz]

A couple of months ago I went to a well known specialist off road store and had some mtz tyres fitted in the 32" size.
First of all the "experts" said these wouldn't fit.....yes they do....mmmmm

Then just this weekend gone I found out that the numb*#%^ who did the job obviously used a rattle gun to do the wheel nuts up.

I was changing my suspension and of course this entails wheel removal. Normal tools would not undo even one nut on any of the four wheels. Now I have my own rattle gun and used this to undo the nuts....I only managed to get 5 of the 20 nuts off with a rattle gun!

I ended up using a 6' extension pipe on a socket bar to crack the remaining nuts all the time waiting for that snapped stud sound.....or my back giving out!

Now imagine being out in the bush, on your own on a stinker of a day and getting a flat.......this could be a life ender.....seriously.

You would think that a specialist 4wd store would have more sense than your local tyre dealer as to the repercussions of remote travel....obviously not.

The morale of this story is when you get some work done, particularly this type, check to see if tensions/adjustments are correct, or this scenario could cost you dearly.

Not happy jan!:mad:

Cheers all
Kev
Yes, a supposedly reputable tyre store (part of a national chain) used a rattle gun on my vehicle and I had a hard time removing the nuts. Needless to say, I caused some damage and they had to buy me a complete set of nuts for the vehicle. On another occasion, another reputable tyre place use a rattle gun on the spare tyre carrier and broke a stud - they fised it at their expense!

Moral of the story - whenever taking the vehicle to a tyre shop make sure you specify "no rattle guns to be used"

Be specific with tyre shops and non Land Rover repairers.

[Barefoot Dave]

One stuff-up that will stay with me, is when I was a Patrol2IC for a 1800km vehicle mounted patrol, half off track.
New tyres on one vehicle and I didn't check the nuts.
Yep, you guessed which vehicle gets a flat.
Ever tried to change a Custo Extra Grip- High Miler on the vehicle, even on a split rim, it was a challenge!
Always check now, had a few words with the manager last set of tyres I got.
Hand tighten the locknuts, don't throw the old tyres away and here is the kill switch.
All too hard "A lot of work for a little money"he says. Won't go back there.
Didn't put the old tyres in the boot
Kept my lock nut key and the brace!!:o

They clearly had too much business.
Dave

[clubagreenie]

I had one on the x-trail so tight that it spun the stud in the hub so back it went and I had days of fun watching the "fitter" use a piece of hacksaw blade to attempt to cut the head off from behind after dismantling and disassembling the brake calliper and associated bits with the wheel still on. They then decided to weld it onto the hub (without battery/alt disconnection so fried them both as well) and get it off a few turns and stopped again, so then he couldn't cut the head off so he was now between the hub of the wheel and mounting face of the hub, again with the blade. 4 days later it was apart. They then wanted to use the same hub, by welding the stud to it. Same wheel, with hacksaw cuts into it, and same brake caliper that was damaged during dismantling.

They made $800- for the set of tyres. Cost them that for the elec repairs alone. Then hub assy, brake discs (got the supplier to supply as a set), calliper, wheel, set of nuts (only came as a set from Nissan),. Total was just shy of $3500-, when he finished the boss made him fit a big new sign saying that all staff must hand fit nuts only and be inspected by a second person and then fired him on the spot.

[justinc]

i have a decent Wurth rattle gun with low torque settings for doing up, and automatically uses the full 450Nm to undo. always recheck by hand afterwards, and almost always they require retensioning.

jc

[Blknight.aus]

JC is yours the one that does the torque control electronically or the air valved one?

If its the electronic one, Dont trust it too much, One of the failure modes is to fail to full power...

Highly entertaining when the guns being used with a deep reach to spin down nuts on some long, fine pitch Stainless steel M5 studs

[justinc]

only air valve, i'd trust it more than any electronic controlled ones (didn't know they existed???). of course you have to remember to set it first:D

jc

[rover-56]

Came across 2 girls in a Defender on the Coastal Hwy in 2010 with a flat.
These girls were very capable but couldn't get the nuts undone.
42deg. 2 dogs in the back, no shade.
Wheels had recently been rotated and tyres checked by tyre dealer in Exmouth for their trip to Perth. Rattle gun used.
I bent every bar in my toolbox and failed to loosen any of them.
Ended up taking them back to the last roadhouse.
Could easily have been a life threatening situation.
Terry

[weeds]

i always ask that they use my wheel brace ( i leave it on the drivers seat) when refitting the nuts and i always check before driving off that i can undo them.......5 min of my time at the time of picking up my rig save frustration later

[schuy1]

the horror stories go on :). As an idea to how tight they do them up a standard defender wheel nut is 80 ft/lbs , heavy duty Wolf is 120 ft/lbs and Discos are 103ft/lbs. Now those are fairly high torque figures yet all can be easily undone with a standard wheel brace by my 15yo daughter! :)
Now having personally bent breaker bars undoing tyre shop nuts:eek: it is amazing more are not just twisted off by those so called x-spurts!

[Bigbjorn]

The reverse also happens. At White Motor Corp the wheel nuts were tightened on the assembly line with a calibrated rattle gun. After post assembly inspection and road test, the nuts were slackened off and retorqued by hand with a torque wrench. Over-tightening wheel nuts on spider wheels was a source of rim distortion and cyclic rough ride syndrome hence the care taken in tightening to correct torque only.

Truckies would take delivery of a new truck and say to us "Don't you guys tighten wheel nuts? I checked them at (here insert name of town) and I put a quarter turn on them and 100 k's later put some more on." Their method of tightening was usually to stand on a long bar until nothing moved. No amount of explaining the engineering reasons behind tightening to given torque only would sink in. "If they are not done up tight they will loosen and lose a wheel" they would say. Not so.

[Blknight.aus]

only air valve, i'd trust it more than any electronic controlled ones (didn't know they existed???). of course you have to remember to set it first:D

jc

sorry, should have stipulated...

its on their electric rattle guns....

[schuy1]

The reverse also happens. At White Motor Corp the wheel nuts were tightened on the assembly line with a calibrated rattle gun. After post assembly inspection and road test, the nuts were slackened off and retorqued by hand with a torque wrench. Over-tightening wheel nuts on spider wheels was a source of rim distortion and cyclic rough ride syndrome hence the care taken in tightening to correct torque only.

Truckies would take delivery of a new truck and say to us "Don't you guys tighten wheel nuts? I checked them at (here insert name of town) and I put a quarter turn on them and 100 k's later put some more on." Their method of tightening was usually to stand on a long bar until nothing moved. No amount of explaining the engineering reasons behind tightening to given torque only would sink in. "If they are not done up tight they will loosen and lose a wheel" they would say. Not so.

Yes for sure, and having worked in a workshop on trucks and driven with truckies I know what they are like! But more so than losing a tyre assembly their biggest fear it seems is spinning a rim on the spider and tearing the valve stem out! Which I have seen happen. so they tighten 10.8 turns past TIGHT! just to be certian:D The number of weirdly worn tyres I've seen resulting from their tightening antics is something to behold :D. But in all the time Ive had my primemover I have never spun a rim and Ive had some fair loads on at times! :)

[zedcars]

Guys
In my shop wheels have to be torqued by hand.
Yes we use a 3/8th air tool to spin the nuts down, but the torque wrench comes out to secure the wheels. That is shop policy!

Maybe I am a bit more conscious of this and its consequences than many!
For 14 years I was a zone rep and service engineer for Leyland trucks. At one stage my job was to support truckers running from the UK to Iran and beyond. My patch was Leibniz to Tabriz in Iran.

Back in the 70's the wheel of choice was the 10 stud cup 'n cone type nut/wheel. If you didn't keep an eye on it as a trucker it would come apart and totally wreck the hub and studs/wheel etc.

I can remember a "delightful exercise" putting a UK trucker back on the road in Bucharest after he lost his wheels. Since I had no studs/nuts nor wheel for a Scammell Crusader I scrounged a Mercedes truck wheel, filed the studs to fit the Leyland axle with a BFH and got it to Istanbul where we did a "propah job!

If I have the inclination I have an entertaining story of losing a front wheel on a Pinzgauer;, after the owner had driven it some 300 miles mentioning a slight noise. I get in it to test and the bloody wheel shot of at 50 mph on test.
My luck
Cheers Dennis
zedcars

[manic]

Wheel brace that came with my LR which I think is genuine issue.. it folds in half, you can undo at full length but only do up at half. Theres a clue right there. I trust the amount of leverage LR provided - as tight as i can be bothered with my arms and then stand on it to finish. No need for a torque wrench or rattle guns.

I must remember to check em whenever back from the garage, if I was stranded with locked on wheels - I would go NUTS! ( :cool: yeah i said it )

[djam1]

All this and no mention or acknowledgement of torque tubes.
Despite the urban myth that every Tyre fitter in the country is a retard and uses a rattle gun to destroy our cars things are not always as they seem.
In the Tyre shops that I have been associated with the use of color graded torque tubes prevents what you are all talking about.
That said some fool with the wrong color tube will do exactly what you are saying.
The worst experience I had was when they didn't do the nuts up.

[zedcars]

Torque tubes were fashionable and still are to a certain extent.

But up 'n over here the torque wrench seems to be the norm these days in the multistate chain tyre shops. Like Discount Tires & Big O Tires, the J/C or W/O print out often states the wheel nut torque etc, and the foreman goes around and writes in the box provided on the W/O the torque he set the wheel nuts before handing over the car to the customer.

The very litigious nature of the US car repair business almost dictates it especially in California.
Dennis
zedcars

[clubagreenie]

What defines a torque tube?

I once had a fitter tell me that the anodised color coded tubular sockets with the plastic to stop it scratching your bling that are now fashionable were torque sockets and when they stopped it was tight. I agreed but he couldn't tell me how tight.

[Blknight.aus]

they are basically an extension bar or long socket that has a slip clutch in them that lets go at a predetermined torque limit.

[zedcars]

Here you are:-
For your continued rattle or windy gun pleasure accessory list!:D
http://www.torquestick.com/images/torque_chart.pdf
Dennis
zedcars

[justinc]

Here you are:-
For your continued rattle or windy gun pleasure accessory list!:D
http://www.torquestick.com/images/torque_chart.pdf
Dennis
zedcars

these are a great idea, but nothing beats the feel of hand tools for final torque.

jc

[teejay19662000]

Hi everyone

Funny reading this as just had nrma out to remove my lock nut as had a flat tyre... huge amount of effort due to rattle gun madness at the tyre fitters.

Do they not get the request do lock nuts up by hand not a rattle gun?????? I will throw my lock nuts away anyway.... key is damaged and so are nuts from over tightening...