Tractor Aircon Help

[Tote]

I have a tractor with an airconditioned cab. The tractor is an early 1980s Fiat 980DT. The aircon doesnt work and I'm in the proceess of considering the effort required to repair it.
The compressor is a piston type, the condensor looks to be in OK condition but the hoses are looking a bit old.

What are the likely bits that will need replacing and an approximate cost?
Can I use hychill for some benefit?

Regards,
Tote

[rick130]

All the hoses will more than likely need replacing, the old R12 hoses tend to delaminate or at least become porous to the modern refrigerants.

A neighbour has a an old FiatAgri tractor, can't recall the model number, but it has the 6 cylinder Fiat engine.
We've changed the compressor (it failed several years ago, although it was a Sanden swashplate style, it was a 5 cylinder and I replaced it with an SD7H15, similar to one used in a Deefer) and had to change every hose and O ring to keep refrigerant in it.

Before we changed the hoses I was going to use R600 (HC) but i asked Ladas who was the expert on HC refrigerants and he advised that the if the hoses weren't working with the R134a blend i was using, the HC refrigerant would be going through them fairly quickly too.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

We converted our 180 pallet freezer room (2 zone - 4 refrigeration units) and 5 freezer trucks to HC refrigerants and found that the HC units had to be topped up less frequently. Apparently the HC molecule is a larger size.

However if you change to HC refrigerants you also need to change the drier unit before evacuating for the HC refrigerant. Most r12 compatible oils are HC compatible.

[rick130]

[snip]
However if you change to HC refrigerants you also need to change the drier unit before evacuating for the HC refrigerant.
[snip]


That's standard procedure for any refrigerant change or when opening up a system ;)

[scarry]

We converted our 180 pallet freezer room (2 zone - 4 refrigeration units) and 5 freezer trucks to HC refrigerants and found that the HC units had to be topped up less frequently. Apparently the HC molecule is a larger size.

However if you change to HC refrigerants you also need to change the drier unit before evacuating for the HC refrigerant. Most r12 compatible oils are HC compatible.

There was a good article in the 'Australian' a couple of weeks ago about HC refrigerants.Apparently the largest industrial fire in the town of Tamahere,NZ was fuelled by HC refrigerants.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

There was a good article in the 'Australian' a couple of weeks ago about HC refrigerants.Apparently the largest industrial fire in the town of Tamahere,NZ was fuelled by HC refrigerants.Probably came out after a press release from DuPont Chemicals who can't patent a naturally occurring gas. In fact if you read the article from the Tamahere fire service, the problem was the inadequate signage at the plant that should have warned the attending brigades that there were flammable gasses present in the plant. No different to fighting a fire at a fuel depot, or any other place where there are flammable or explosive hazards.

HC refrigerants are no more dangerous than any other form or propane and given the quantity of gas in most car (or tractor) a/c units about 15 to 20 time less dangerous than the LPG tank in the back of most Taxis.

They also have 1000 times less Global Warming Potential than CFC replacement refrigerants.

[scarry]

HC refrigerants are no more dangerous than any other form or propane and given the quantity of gas in most car (or tractor) a/c units about 15 to 20 time less dangerous than the LPG tank in the back of most Taxis.

They also have 1000 times less Global Warming Potential than CFC replacement refrigerants.

Correct.

But if you read the NZ fire services report,a lot more than just signage needs to be done before it is used in larger plants.

Tote,hope you get the tractor sorted,sorry to have hijacked the thread.
Maybe no smoking in the cab;)

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Correct.

But if you read the NZ fire services report,a lot more than just signage needs to be done before it is used in larger plants.

Tote,hope you get the tractor sorted,sorry to have hijacked the thread.
Maybe no smoking in the cab;)It didn't say that at all. These are the recommendations.
"Specific matters in the inquiry team’s recommendations include the following:
The Hazardous Substances and New Organisms (“HSNO”) regulations and standards should be amended so that stationary refrigeration systems, and the refrigerant they contain, are subject to appropriate controls.
All large-scale flammable gas installations should by law require inclusion of stenching agents in the gas.
The regulatory regime as a whole should be reviewed to promote the sharing of information about hazardous substances between regulatory and other interested agencies.
The current rural/urban fire legislation should be analysed in relation to risk planning and control of fires in buildings throughout New Zealand.
Agencies need to share information about buildings using nationally consistent formats.
Fire Service pre-incident planning processes need to identify high-risk buildings, including those that are outside the urban fire district.
The current Fire Service instruction on significant incident and post-incident support should be reviewed to capture lessons learnt in this event.
Fire Service operational instructions on the use of gas detectors should be reviewed to provide more detailed information.
Formal security and scene handover procedures for major fires should be improved.The inquiry identified nine different factors, any one of which could have avoided the risks and injuries to the responding firefighters:
HSNO regulations applied fully to this installation
prior notification to the Fire Service of hazardous substances at the premises
receipt of an application for approval of an evacuation scheme
pre-incident planning and familiarisation visit by local Fire Service staff
Fire Service awareness of the large-scale use of flammable refrigerants in New Zealand
warning signage at the premises
stenching agent present in refrigerant gas
flammable gas detection on the premises alerting crews
crews using a portable gas detector.
This indicates that the fundamental cause of the incident may lie in part in systemic defects in the regulatory environment and the communication between the various regulatory agencies. This is an issue that may deserve wider investigation by the Government."Only three of the nine identified factors pertain to the refrigeration, These were the (6) lack of signage, (7) the addition of a stenching agent into the gas (making the HC smelly) and (8) flammable gas detection in the plant.

The rest of the issues were inter-agency, fire service actions and regulatory failures. The same failures that could apply to a welding fabrication plant using equivalent quantities of welding gasses and LPG or a paint factory, a BBQ store, a commercial kitchen or boiler plant using natural gas etc etc. In fact the controls (6), (7) & (8) could just as easily be applied to natural gas or any location where large volumes of LPG or other flammable substances are stored/used. Infact a couple or three LPG powered fork lifts would have as much or more LPG as the HC in the refigeration plant.

There is a video of a scientist at UNSW filling a car with a equivalent amount of HC refigerant sitting in the car and lighting a match. Yes he does get some superficial burns to his face and hands but what person would sit in a car in an obvious cloud of refrigerant gas and still light up a cigarette.

If it is safe to smoke in a car with 80 or 100 litres of LPG fuel then it is as safe to smoke in a car with 800 grams of HC (LPG) refigerant.

[rick130]

I looked into converting a small country supermarket to HC's a few years back.

It just wasn't cost effective when you added in the necessary safety and alarm systems needed in the case of a leak.

If it had been a large supermarket we were building from scratch it may make sense, but to do the alarm and safety systems properly is pretty involved, and I'd still be a little antsy as some Woolies and Coles can have a lot of refrigerant in a system.
A tech I was talking to last week reckoned one system he used to work on carried 600kg of R404.

Imagine even 300kg of HC to replace that 600kg circulating under high pressure. (LPG heating systems only use around 5psi down stream of the regulator, R290 will be up around 300psi/2100kPa in the discharge/liquid side of the system)
A lot of safeties and alarms are needed.

One of the local roo boxes was running an HC when I was called in to service it.
No signage, no alarms and it's an airtight ex-shipping container.

You can just imagine a roo shooter opening the box at 2:00am with a ciggy hanging out of his mouth and an evap leak has dumped all the R290 inside.....

Needless to say it now runs an HFC blend instead.

[Tote]

Thanks for the replies guys:D
From what I've learned it looks like the following is probably the go:
Budget for new hoses
Budget for a new reciever/ drier
Se what eventuates with th rest of the system when the refrigeration bloke repressurises it.

Regards,
Tote

[rick130]

Thanks for the replies guys:D
From what I've learned it looks like the following is probably the go:
Budget for new hoses
Budget for a new reciever/ drier
Se what eventuates with th rest of the system when the refrigeration bloke repressurises it.

Regards,
Tote

Before you do anything, get the fridgey or a/c bloke to pressure test first with dry nitrogen and leave for a few days or a week and re-check, the hoses may be ok, at least for a while.

[Tote]

Follow up on the aircon repairs. I got it done over Christmas. About 10 swage connectors to replace the hose clamps, a joiner where one of the hoses had chafed. Replacement of the drier and hoses from the compressor to the condenser regas and test. All up $1700.00. Bloody gas was $350.00, mutter mutter carbon tax mutter.....
But at least the cab is cool now :D

Regards,
Tote

[rick130]

Trust me, 'taint just the carbon tax ;)

[scarry]

Trust me, 'taint just the carbon tax ;)

Exactly,sure the carbon tax increased the cost of refrigerants substantially,there is more carbon tax on some types than others.

But also on the 1/7/2012,all refrigerant bottle rentals increased substantially,and the wholesale buying base price of all refrigerants(before adding the carbon tax),went up at least 100%.

Then you have the phase out of R22(which has very little or no carbon tax on it),which is now around 9 to 10 times the price we were paying for it 12 months ago,by 2014 it will be very difficult to get.This is one of the most common refrigerants.It seems to be increasing in price around 30% every few months,with no direct "drop in" cheaper replacement available.

Then you have the $ value of the refrigerant sitting around in stock,and the risk using the stuff in the event you lose a lot for whatever reason.

Bottom line is working with these types of refrigerants has now becoming risky business,financially.


Good to see the tractor is cool:)

[Blknight.aus]

The approach I apply is...

Why are you airconning? thats 6hp coming of the crank that can be going to the wheels or being returned to the tank, and now it costs how much to fix?


Oh you want to feel nice and cold, in that case you get to pay for it, I don't understand the problem.

[rick130]

The approach I apply is...

Why are you airconning? thats 6hp coming of the crank that can be going to the wheels or being returned to the tank, and now it costs how much to fix?


Oh you want to feel nice and cold, in that case you get to pay for it, I don't understand the problem.

No Dave, you'll get to pay for it seeing as some large supermarket systems hold up around 600kg of R404a.

At the corporate rate of around $195/kg, Coles and Woolies will be passing the cost onto Mr and Mrs housewife.

Anyway, a tractor cab is a bloody fishbowl and without a/c it's unbearable, even in winter.
Been there, done that and used to take the open tractor out as it was better to be covered in dust and corruption than die from heat exhaustion.

[Dougal]

There was a good article in the 'Australian' a couple of weeks ago about HC refrigerants.Apparently the largest industrial fire in the town of Tamahere,NZ was fuelled by HC refrigerants.

It was actually fuelled (once started) by the huge quantities of dairy products inside. I imagine tons of melted cheese burning and flowing out the door is quite a fire-fighting problem. A mate up that way said even a year later driving past it smelt like a burnt cheese toasty.:eek:

The lack of signage was a major concern. Imagine the problems if it were an ammonia plant that size and the fire-fighters didn't know!

I am surprised at the lack of stenching agent. I thought ethyl mercaptan was in all of them.

[ezyrama]

Exactly,sure the carbon tax increased the cost of refrigerants substantially,there is more carbon tax on some types than others.

But also on the 1/7/2012,all refrigerant bottle rentals increased substantially,and the wholesale buying base price of all refrigerants(before adding the carbon tax),went up at least 100%.

Then you have the phase out of R22(which has very little or no carbon tax on it),which is now around 9 to 10 times the price we were paying for it 12 months ago,by 2014 it will be very difficult to get.This is one of the most common refrigerants.It seems to be increasing in price around 30% every few months,with no direct "drop in" cheaper replacement available.

Then you have the $ value of the refrigerant sitting around in stock,and the risk using the stuff in the event you lose a lot for whatever reason.

Bottom line is working with these types of refrigerants has now becoming risky business,financially.


Good to see the tractor is cool:)

What the main wholesalers didnt tell you was that they purchased refrigerant on behalf of the supermarkets and bought up big before 1/7/12, one alone bought 120 tons of refrigerant, R404a included for about $17 per kilo and after 1/7/12 were selling it for $125 per kg siting carbon levy as an excuse. Some of these big wholesalers are still selling their R22 quota's from 2-3 years ago at the new "carbon levy" prices and making a killing. Coles have a contract with Coles City Refrigeration and Woolworths have just purchased Ausral Refrigeration which will can all the little guys out of the market. One wholesaler owns a refrigerant manufacturer/import company and dictates what that company can sell to all the little guys. They all increased their bottle rentals as stated earlier as well. There is a drop in replacement available for R22, Its called SP22 and works very well and about $10.00 a kilo cheaper at the moment (until someone decides that R22 needs to go up again)

[scarry]

What the main wholesalers didnt tell you was that they purchased refrigerant on behalf of the supermarkets and bought up big before 1/7/12, one alone bought 120 tons of refrigerant, R404a included for about $17 per kilo and after 1/7/12 were selling it for $125 per kg siting carbon levy as an excuse. Some of these big wholesalers are still selling their R22 quota's from 2-3 years ago at the new "carbon levy" prices and making a killing. Coles have a contract with Coles City Refrigeration and Woolworths have just purchased Ausral Refrigeration which will can all the little guys out of the market. One wholesaler owns a refrigerant manufacturer/import company and dictates what that company can sell to all the little guys. They all increased their bottle rentals as stated earlier as well. There is a drop in replacement available for R22, Its called SP22 and works very well and about $10.00 a kilo cheaper at the moment (until someone decides that R22 needs to go up again)

And the ACCC did absolutely stuff all about it:mad:

[Davehoos]

last weel on abc regional was a report of government money being handed out to allow uneconomical organisations to convert to amonia to allow these to become economical..$ millions.

ministry spokesman[minister] said that projects had been rejected as they actually was not in buisness or may not even be built--unlike other grants in the past that had been abandoned after they got grants.

one company spokeman answered the question they had been counting on this gant--but it was tiny compared to other items they had to find cash for and the freezers already worked.......

[rick130]

last weel on abc regional was a report of government money being handed out to allow uneconomical organisations to convert to amonia to allow these to become economical..$ millions.

ministry spokesman[minister] said that projects had been rejected as they actually was not in buisness or may not even be built--unlike other grants in the past that had been abandoned after they got grants.

one company spokeman answered the question they had been counting on this gant--but it was tiny compared to other items they had to find cash for and the freezers already worked.......


Ammonia is extremely efficient but only suitable for industrial plants and definitely not where the public could be exposed to it, eg. you couldn't use it in supermarkets unless you made it as a stand alone chiller plant and used water as a secondary refrigerant.

Everything has to be steel, you can't use any copper or brass near it either, so it'd be a huge undertaking, everything would have to be new.

[ezyrama]

And the ACCC did absolutely stuff all about it:mad:

Exactly Paul, and all the did do was prosecute some poor easy target in S.A. after they embarrassed that ****** Combet by listing on their invoices how much carbon levy was applied to each kilo of gas. One of my customers got that Combet joker on the radio on a talk back show and challenged him to justify the levy, Combet "allegedly" replied, oh it's only going to affect a small amount of people when they get their fridges fixed. My customer replied, mate I have more gas in my cigarette lighter than some of those fridges, but what about putting 6x 63 kg bottles of R404a into a low temp rack in a supermarket, the cost has gone from about 12k worth of gas to nearly 48k worth of gas, and you think for one second that the supermarket wont take that into consideration when setting prices. All he could say was he would have to look into it. Just goes to show we have morons making decisions about a subject they know diddly squat about.

[scarry]

Ammonia is extremely efficient but only suitable for industrial plants and definitely not where the public could be exposed to it, eg. you couldn't use it in supermarkets unless you made it as a stand alone chiller plant and used water as a secondary refrigerant.

Everything has to be steel, you can't use any copper or brass near it either, so it'd be a huge undertaking, everything would have to be new.

With the size of the shopping centres around here,i can't work out why they don't have an ammonia chiller in the far corner of the carpark.

Many of the latest very large refrig plants use an ammonia chiller chilling glycol at -7degrees for everything except the freezers.Freezers are DX ammonia.
Warmer glycol is pumped through the coils using valves with actuators(similar to valves used in chilled water systems)for defrosting.

The new Primo plant at Wacol was done this way.

[scarry]

Exactly Paul, and all the did do was prosecute some poor easy target in S.A. after they embarrassed that ****** Combet by listing on their invoices how much carbon levy was applied to each kilo of gas. One of my customers got that Combet joker on the radio on a talk back show and challenged him to justify the levy, Combet "allegedly" replied, oh it's only going to affect a small amount of people when they get their fridges fixed. My customer replied, mate I have more gas in my cigarette lighter than some of those fridges, but what about putting 6x 63 kg bottles of R404a into a low temp rack in a supermarket, the cost has gone from about 12k worth of gas to nearly 48k worth of gas, and you think for one second that the supermarket wont take that into consideration when setting prices. All he could say was he would have to look into it. Just goes to show we have morons making decisions about a subject they know diddly squat about.

But SHE,the PM said when questioned about the massive cost increases of refrigerants,it is only a one of cost,and also this is a good example why we have increased the family subsidy(or something along those lines):eek:

Just shows how out of touch they are with what is going on,particularly in small business,the local butcher,independent foodstore,shopping centre owners,etc,etc,etc.

[Tote]

Ressurecting this thread, the old Blissfield (york Style) compressor clutch died at the end of last summer and although I replaced the bearings it looks like the gas has leaked out. The base of the compressor is also stained with oil so it may be the base gasket on the compressor is leaking as well and the aircon bloke told me that these seals are unobtainable.

I am off to the US and have the opportunity to pick up a compressor for $200 - 300 US which is considerably better than the $800 - 1000 I have been quoted here. The question is which compressor to get?

Sanden 5XX ?
Sanden 7XX ?

Also is it worth locating a compressor with o ring fittings or am I better to get new ends put on my hoses to suit?

Regards,

Tote

[Tote]

Can someone advise what sort of connectors the ones on the hoses are? I'm assuming O Ring?

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/toteau/Farm/IMGP2460_zpsmkfvzoyw.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/toteau/media/Farm/IMGP2460_zpsmkfvzoyw.jpg.html)

The compressor in position

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/toteau/Farm/IMGP2458_zpsknjbt28w.jpg (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/toteau/media/Farm/IMGP2458_zpsknjbt28w.jpg.html)

Regards,
Tote

[scarry]

Probably a round nylon ring that fits in a groove on the compresser.

There are different sizes,available from Actrol parts,Heatcraft,etc.

Oil them before fitting and oil the back of the rotalock nut,so it turns easily,if you know what i mean.

[Tote]

To tidy up this thread, I got the Sanden 8xx compressor and had a local engineering shop make up some new mounts, gassed it up and it was working well until I checked it today, no cold air. Rats have eaten a hole in one of the hoses, I hope the buggers choked on the gas........

Oh well another 3 hour drive to town to get the hose fixed and regassed

Regards,
Tote