Bio-diesel and warranty

[iClick]

I'm looking at a 2011 Defender and the seller who works for a large interstate freight company casually admitted to using bio-fuel occasionally (blended with regular diesel) We were discussing the quality of diesel in Oz and he informed me that the big rigs use a lot of bio-diesel.

Are there any potential problems running bio-diesel in a Puma engine and if issue was to develop with the fuel system, could Land Rover deny a warranty claim (would there be any evidence left behind in the fuel filter?)

[Blknight.aus]

RTM

the permissable % of bio in a puma is.... 0.

yes, it leaves traces

LR would jump on you.

[isuzurover]

All Australian diesel can be up to 5% bio without labelling.

If you have put a several tanks of fuel through and changed the engine oil, then you cannot detect that it had run bio.

There was a recent French study on a diesel fleet (including commonrail) over 12 years. Half the fleet were running bio and half not. Engines were dismantled after the study and no difference found.

[iClick]

All Australian diesel can be up to 5% bio without labelling.

If you have put a several tanks of fuel through and changed the engine oil, then you cannot detect that it had run bio.

There was a recent French study on a diesel fleet (including commonrail) over 12 years. Half the fleet were running bio and half not. Engines were dismantled after the study and no difference found.

So I would gather by your statement you'd not be concerned about buying a s/h Puma that had been run on bio?

I would't plan on running it myself on bio, just concerned that if I have to make a warranty claim it could be rejected.

[isuzurover]

So I would gather by your statement you'd not be concerned about buying a s/h Puma that had been run on bio?

I would't plan on running it myself on bio, just concerned that if I have to make a warranty claim it could be rejected.

Scroll down here:
Fuel Quality in Australia - Diesel fuel quality standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/diesel.html)

Unless you took it into them with a tank full of fuel that contained >5% Bio, LR would have no way of knowing if your vehicle has been running bio or just pump diesel with <=5% Bio.

IMHO it wouldn't stop me buying the vehicle if the price was right.

[iClick]

Thanks for the information - I plan on inspecting the vehicle soon and I feel a bit more comfortable knowing that the bio-diesel issue isn't necessarily a big issue in this case.

[isuzurover]

Thanks for the information - I plan on inspecting the vehicle soon and I feel a bit more comfortable knowing that the bio-diesel issue isn't necessarily a big issue in this case.

A bigger issue is the quality of the BD it ran and how long it was taking to get through a tank at the time. The biggest issue in commonrail engines seems to be oxidative breakdown due to high temps and mots of fuel recirculation.

In short - BD + short trips or low km not a good idea.

[ALBI]

I'm looking at a 2011 Defender and the seller who works for a large interstate freight company casually admitted to using bio-fuel occasionally (blended with regular diesel) We were discussing the quality of diesel in Oz and he informed me that the big rigs use a lot of bio-diesel.

Are there any potential problems running bio-diesel in a Puma engine and if issue was to develop with the fuel system, could Land Rover deny a warranty claim (would there be any evidence left behind in the fuel filter?)
read youre manuel for warrenty clause
bio-diesel not allowed

[ALBI]

All Australian diesel can be up to 5% bio without labelling.

If you have put a several tanks of fuel through and changed the engine oil, then you cannot detect that it had run bio.

There was a recent French study on a diesel fleet (including commonrail) over 12 years. Half the fleet were running bio and half not. Engines were dismantled after the study and no difference found.
the problem here is that european diesel is far better than ours !
even their bio-diesel is better

and by the way this australia and european results do not reflect our fuels

[101RRS]

read youre manuel for warrenty clause
bio-diesel not allowed

I think a manufacturer will be hard pressed on knocking back a warranty claim related to the legislated limit of up to 5% BD in diesel. Aust warranty provisions override manufacturers provisions where they conflict or the manufacturers provisions are unreasonable.

Garry

[isuzurover]

...

and by the way this australia and european results do not reflect our fuels

???

Please speak english.

If you are trying to say that EU data is not representative for Australia, then I disagree. The Australian Fuel quality standard I posted a link to above is equivalent to EU standards, only they allow a higher % bio than we do.

[Blknight.aus]

Last time I saw results from a random servo sample Australian fuel was struggling to meet the Euro 3 fuel spec standards.

The differences shouldn't make any difference to the economy of the vehicle as the failing points (from memory) were the % of suspended water and the foreign particulates in suspension all of these should be delt with quite easily by the fuel water separator the puma doesn't have and the filter.

[isuzurover]

Last time I saw results from a random servo sample Australian fuel was struggling to meet the Euro 3 fuel spec standards.

The differences shouldn't make any difference to the economy of the vehicle as the failing points (from memory) were the % of suspended water and the foreign particulates in suspension all of these should be delt with quite easily by the fuel water separator the puma doesn't have and the filter.

That is a different matter entirely. In which case it would not conform to the standards.

(Link?)

[Blknight.aus]

I'll see if I can dredge one up....

20 minutes of searching and I can find a few documents with embedded links that lead to pages to the effect of


"this document has been removed....."

"Due to legal requests this linked document has been removed.."

I found some for 2009 but they mainly concentrate on the blended bio not meeting the standards for straight diesel.

[isuzurover]

I'll see if I can dredge one up....

20 minutes of searching and I can find a few documents with embedded links that lead to pages to the effect of


"this document has been removed....."

"Due to legal requests this linked document has been removed.."

I found some for 2009 but they mainly concentrate on the blended bio not meeting the standards for straight diesel.

The bottom line is though that the current Australian Fuel standard is equivalent to current EU fuel standards. It is illegal to sell diesel which does not conform, and any servo found to be doing so can be fined and/or prosecuted.

[Blknight.aus]

its fun and games...

The fuel is only warranted (in most cases) till its in the tank of the servo...

if you suspect you've gotten bad fuel you need to have the receipt of the servo you filled up from a sample of the fuel and the complaint has to be lodged within 30 days.

Fair enough until you do the legwork on what happens then....

lets assume that you filled the tank completely there (if they find any traces of alternate suppliers markers or additives other than their own approved fuel additives you don't get your payout) they then might send a sampling team around to the servo and sample the tanks. IF that sample fails testing in the same way as the fuel thats in your tank then they will consider making a contributing payment to the cost of your vehicles repair.

From memory.. the issue with the fuel wasn't what was being refined it was what was coming out of the pumps, and since very few of us have the luxury of being able to access fuel straight out of the refinery its a fair enough point. I think the big conglomerates defended it with something along the lines of

"the fuel as it leaves our refining point is at the required standard, we were not approached to provide a sample as part of the test and all of your samples were obtained from independently owned or managed service stations. The problem is not the supply of quality fuel but the handling of it once it leaves our supply lines."


I have found a stack of documents that refer to AVtur not meeting the standards (aviation safety stuff mainly) some more recent water contaminated petrol issues and docs covering diesel issues with water contamination (typically complaints about servos that are delivering bad fuel after floods) and a pearler all the way back in 1988/9 done by the navy.

[superquag]

The other side of the coin is the quality and feedstock of the biodiesel, whether run straight (B100) or a blend, say B5 or less. Even at 5% or so, crook bio. can cause concern with delicate fuelling systems.

Just before I stopped making it, my labours yielded a fuel that was almost as good as the top bio produced here in WA, which surpassed many of the European EN14214 parameters.

Around the same time I purchased some commercially brewed bio, which met the current Australian standards... and blocked up my filter in one tankful.

Sure, it was a manufacturing stuff-up which would'nt have been readily noticed when diluted... but the error is a weakness of the process used.

I can see where LR are coming from... keeping thier corporate backsides well-armoured.

Unless the PO is making the equivalent of mountain moonshine... if the engine runs nicely from a cold start etc, I'd stop worrying about it.:p:p:p

[phl]

Around the same time I purchased some commercially brewed bio, which met the current Australian standards... and blocked up my filter in one tankful.

Was this after running normal diesel for some time, or running on Bio regularly? I recall several new Bio users having problem, but it was put down to existing dirty line, which the Bio cleaned out, which ended up in the filter, thus blocking it. The advice at the time was to carry a spare filter, and change the filter after the first few tanks full.

[superquag]

No, it was after running a lot of my homebrew... circumstances and a change in WVO supplier left me a bit short, so I cheated and took the easy way out. :o
Proved embarrasing, but I always carried a spare filter so it was'nt a big drama.
My system was well and truly cleaned out before then.

Carrying a fuel filter is good practice for any diesel, the further from civilisation the better the idea... Even your favourite servo can be delivered a dodgy batch of fuel... unlikely, but possible.

Then there's extreme cold, (like Victoria and Tassie ?)... bio can plug your filter if it gets cold enough and/or there's any Palm Oil in the feedstock. Should be ok with commercial bio.. and for Backyard Bio...well, you've done the fridge test for every batch have'nt you....;)

[phl]

I buy my bio from a supplier that supplies some of the councils for their trucks, and notice they have filters on all their bowsers. So far (touch wood) haven't had any problems from them.

[frowdy]

Ive ran a 2008 nissan 2.5 common rail on home made Bio and had no problems with the warranty all you should is change the fuel filters . because the Bio works as a cleaner