Identification Help

[hughie88]

Hi All,

I am hoping that i might some of you might be able to help identify this vehicle.

My Dad bought it for me on my 14th birthday as a "learn your way around cars my son" project. I did learn a lot.In fact id say i owe my carreer to date to the interest that landy sparked in me.
I spent hours with him repairing and honing brake cylinders, rekitting the front end and repairing suspension etc etc.

He bought it at a farm clearing sale in 2000, i spent my school holidays using it as a hunting ute and its spent the last 6 years parked in one of the garages on the farm.

Looks like the farm might go within the next 12 months and im left wondering what to do with this vehicle. I have a neighbour that has expressed an interest in me giving it to him but he is a butcher and i dont want to see him cut it up and turn it into some dangerous farming contraption.

I am hoping that it might bear some sentimental value to an entusiast or collector.


I really dont know a whole lot about it but ill tell you what i do know

Series 2A
109
Ex Aus Army
PTO Capstan winch on front (complete and working)
Pintle hook mounted to bullbar
has toolboxes in the back behind the rear wheels (look like they might have once held batteries?)
twin fuel tanks.
Holden 186
I have attampted to attach some photos below, Boy oh boy do i regret giving it that colour scheme when i was a kid. It appears my value for sentiment and originallity has grown with age.

Unfortunatly as i will have nowhere to store it when the farm goes i will have to sell it in the near future. Im just interested in finding out some info about it before i try to sell it on the appropriate forum.

Im heading back to the farm on the weekend so i will take some photos of the plates to give a little mor info.

Cheers

Hughie

[alien]

Sounds like a good introduction to things mechanical:)

If you find a military plate grab the details and look on here...
The Registry of Ex Military Land Rovers. Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere. (http://www.remlr.com/)
It's a starting point if it is ex military.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The toolboxes down the back are standard. SIIa that had radio batteries had them in the tub just behind the transom.

Was the capstan winch on the vehicle what you got it?

[hughie88]

Yes Lotz A Landies the winch has been on it as long as I have had the vehicle. Is that a piece of hardware that could have been fitted by the army? Or is it more likely to have been by an owner once the vehicle began civilian life.

And yes it was a good introduction to all things mechanical. Since then I took on an apprenticeship as a plant mechanic, topped the western institute of NSW for automotive and am now in the middle of a degree in mechanical engineering. Good onya Dad!:BigThumb:


I will get some shots of the plates, the vehicle in general and the winch... It does seems to provoke some interest amongst Enthusiasts.

[hughie88]

Hey all,

I got asked my Dad to duck into the shed and take a snap or two of the plates he could find on the dash and this is what he found...

I tried to track down the chassis number like you suggested alien and what i have found has left me a little confused.
112-1661091961-Series 26032Lubricating and servicing unit, power operated, Truck mounted, 3/4 ton GS.unk25304001A-750x1639NSW. Original chassis was 153101763not noted-

Am I looking at the same vehicle i dont know.

I have not been able to track down the number 153101715.

There must be another plate on the old girl somewhere.
Ill have a crawl over her on the weekend.
This is the Landy as she sits today.

Looking forward to finding out more.

Cheers

Hughie

[Lotz-A-Landies]

OK interesting vehicle you have there, it is a 1961 Series 2 109", it was originally fitted as a Lubricating & Servicing workshop variant ARN 112-166.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/956.jpg

The workshop bodywork was eventually swapped onto a SIIa chassis 25304001A (which came from ARN 108-632).

In 1973 A SIIa GS body fitted onto the SII chassis making ARN 174-434

All this swapping would have happened in 2 Base Workshop Moorebank NSW in 1973 (at the time they were in production re-building the vehicles that returned from Vietnam) Talk to "Cookey" he was a RAEME Mech at 2 Base Workshop about that time.

[hughie88]

174-4341091969-Series 2A6028BTruck, Utility, 3/4 Ton, GS, Cargo With Winch25329817K153101763-750x16Original Chassis 25328105D replaced in 1973.09.07.80-


ah ha. well that does make it interesting. it's a bitsa.

I still have the cab roof canopy frame and the door tops.
And the winch was fitted by the army.

That photo you posted Lotz-A-Landies. would that photo be of the actual S2 that I have or the S2A that the body was fitted onto?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip>
That photo you posted Lotz-A-Landies. would that photo be of the actual S2 that I have or the S2A that the body was fitted onto?Take a look at the number plate! :cool:

[hughie88]

Thankyou.

Yes I saw that. I just wasn't sure if that would have been pre or post body removal. At the time i wrote that i was still getting my head around what you were telling me.
Regardless. Thats very very interesting.

I dont imagine there would be too many folks that have photos of their own chassis/vehicle in service.

I don't want to sell it now.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

The image is early because of the vehicle's deep bronze green colour, by 1967 the entire fleet was being re-sprayed olive drab.

There are a few members who have in-service images, Zulu Delta 534 has images of his gunbuggy in Vietnam. Lucky bugger!

Yours is interesting because it is an SII 109, which are few and far between it is one of the first three production vehicles of that variant (census 6032) and given the image may actually be the prototype. Note, in the image it has the un-cut front mudguards and no front exit exhaust a standard feature of the later production workshops.

[hughie88]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/953.jpg This is my Landy!!

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yup and likely why it was going through a full base overhaul at 2Base Wkshp in 1973.

You too are a lucky bugger having a Vietnam vet! Will you return it to workshop variant status?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/951.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/952.jpg

[hughie88]

I think that would be the only thing to do with it:). That will have to happen!

I was not expecting to find this out about my old spotlighting ute.

I'd better tell my dad.

[Dinty]

Well, now we have 2 Land Rovers claiming ARN 112-166, Scott F has S2A 109 chassis No 25304001A:o, cheers Dennis:angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Well, now we have 2 Land Rovers claiming ARN 112-166, Scott F has S2A 109 chassis No 25304001A:o, cheers Dennis:angel:Yes , however given the 153101763 rebuild happened in Oct 1973 the most likely scenario is: when Hughie88's chassis was a lube workshop ARN 112-166 in Vietnam Scott's, chassis' was an Auto repair workshop with ARN 108-632. Like most vehicles that returned from SVN they then all want through a full base rebuild when they got back.

If you talk to people on the 2 base workshop line in those days, they didn't much care which parts were assembled with which vehicle, as long as the ARN left the workshop in the correct census.

We're the ones who get hung up with the provenance of the vehicles against the chassis and ARN it left service with, but for a significant part of the service the chassis was often under a different ARN and census.

Just like my gun buggy chassis, was it most of the time under 112-723 that it left service with? Or 112-726 it commenced in service with? Or did they merely swap the plates to send a finished buggy to a unit the ARN was assigned? I don't know but makes for an interesting debate.

You should also look at the front drag link and LHS dumb-iron, in the images from Vietnam (above), with what you can see, you can't see the steering damper and AFAIK the SIIa army had steering dampers. A retrofit one in the 1963 SIIa and an OEM in the later SIIa. Making the uncut guards and no steering damper likely a SII so Hughie's and probably not Scott's SIIa.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yes Lotz A Landies the winch has been on it as long as I have had the vehicle. Is that a piece of hardware that could have been fitted by the army? Or is it more likely to have been by an owner once the vehicle began civilian life.
<snip>Hi hughie

The capstan winches were usually only fitted to early ambulances and some GS but rarely to a workshop.

The majority of winches were the Bamford PTO drum winches. However 174-434 is a 6028B census Truck, Utility, 3/4 Ton, GS, Cargo With Winch so this may be your capstan and have been fitted during the rebuild in 1973.

[hughie88]

Yes. I had a good look at the REMLR website last night, specifically the census information for the 174-xxx trucks. it was 1 of 2 vehicle that were of the census 6028B which i think makes it a little unique.
At this stage I can't confirm this however I am very sure the winch assembly is painted in olive drab.

I have had a read of the posts on this thread from last night regarding the fact that there are now two people that have ARN 112-166.

I dont know a great deal about landrovers and im still getting my head around a lot of the information on REMLR.

Is the debate, whether my chassis is the one pictured on the REMLR website and in the photos with Rob Moseley?

Incidently Robert Moseley is now the Jnr Vice President of the Queensland Vietnam Veterans Association. I found him on the internet last night.

[hughie88]

Lotz-A-Landies.

Ill quote you;

"If you talk to people on the 2 base workshop line in those days, they didn't much care which parts were assembled with which vehicle, as long as the ARN left the workshop in the correct census.

We're the ones who get hung up with the provenance of the vehicles against the chassis and ARN it left service with, but for a significant part of the service the chassis was often under a different ARN and census."

Apologies I havn't worked out how to do that properly at this stage.

Are you saying that the plates (the photographed ones) I have might not not match the chassis under my vehicle?

If this is the case, Is there a location on the chassis that the chassis number is stamped? For better or worse I am interested to confirm this.

[Dinty]

The chassis number should be stamped on the LHS rear outrigger just above where the LHS shackle plate is attached, you may need to use a wire brush to clean the area cheers Dennis:angel:
Do you have a clear picture of the way the Capstan winch is fitted, as it looks very different to how I remember them being fitted, I also have a Land Rover that is a veteran of the conflict in Sth Vietnam, mine was a Military Police vehicle (Provo),.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Lotz-A-Landies.

Ill quote you;


"If you talk to people on the 2 base workshop line in those days, they didn't much care which parts were assembled with which vehicle, as long as the ARN left the workshop in the correct census.

We're the ones who get hung up with the provenance of the vehicles against the chassis and ARN it left service with, but for a significant part of the service the chassis was often under a different ARN and census."

Apologies I havn't worked out how to do that properly at this stage.

Are you saying that the plates (the photographed ones) I have might not not match the chassis under my vehicle?

If this is the case, Is there a location on the chassis that the chassis number is stamped? For better or worse I am interested to confirm this.Hi Hughie

Not quite, in civilian life in australia the chassis number is the identity of the vehicle. In the Australian Army the ARN was the identity of the vehicle, the chassis was treated as a part.

In the various base workshops the rebuild lines completely dismantled the vehicles and then repaired/restored each assembly and then built the vehicle back up. Quite frequently the original chassis may not be finished being stripped, repaired and re-painted so they would use another chassis that was finished or one that came off a parts vehicle. The ARN book would then be updated with the change of chassis number. It's the same as getting an exchange engine, rather than reconditioning your own.

Hence 112-116 started with your chassis and finished service with a different chassis. The most likely time for this to have occurred is during a full base overhaul your chassis had one in october 1973 according to the plate in the image you posted.

When you look at the images of 112-166 in Vietnam, my opinion is that it has features of a Series 2 vehicle particularly the front guards. Therefore it is most likely that in Vietnam, 112-166 still had your chassis and the chassis swap happened after the return to Oz in or before October 1973.

Does that make sense?

Diana

[hughie88]

Dinty,

Thanks for that info re the location of the chassis number.

Im going back to the farm on the weekend so I'll get my brush and have a look for that number and take a snap or two.

The capstan winch... I dont have any good photos at this stage but I'll get some on the weekend. I'll get it out of the garage, blow the dust off it and take a heap of photos.

Ive had a read of your restoration thread for that MP vehicle. looks like you did a proper job.:)

[hughie88]

Hi Hughie

Not quite, in civilian life in australia the chassis number is the identity of the vehicle. In the Australian Army the ARN was the identity of the vehicle, the chassis was treated as a part.

In the various base workshops the rebuild lines completely dismantled the vehicles and then repaired/restored each assembly and then built the vehicle back up. Quite frequently the original chassis may not be finished being stripped, repaired and re-painted so they would use another chassis that was finished or one that came off a parts vehicle. The ARN book would then be updated with the change of chassis number. It's the same as getting an exchange engine, rather than reconditioning your own.

Hence 112-116 started with your chassis and finished service with a different chassis. The most likely time for this to have occurred is during a full base overhaul your chassis had one in october 1973 according to the plate in the image you posted.

When you look at the images of 112-166 in Vietnam, my opinion is that it has features of a Series 2 vehicle particularly the front guards. Therefore it is most likely that in Vietnam, 112-166 still had your chassis and the chassis swap happened after the return to Oz in or before October 1973.

Does that make sense?

Diana

Lotz-A-Landies,

Yes this makes sense, I understand.

[hughie88]

Hi All,

As promised, i made it home on the weekend, drove the old girl out of the shed and got a few new photos.

[hughie88]

And more...

[hughie88]

And more...

[hughie88]

And more.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Hughie

The capstan winch is not mounted correctly, or as the army mounted them.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/military-land-rovers/54266d1355092045-identification-help-img_8894.jpg

They should be mounted on a flat plate that sits on top on the bumper and has a rear edge folded down then bolted into the front face of the cross member.

Also, how is it driven? Usually very difficult with a Holden engine, or given the position is this one being driven by a PTO mechanism from the gearbox?

[hughie88]

Also, how is it driven? Usually very difficult with a Holden engine, or given the position is this one being driven by a PTO mechanism from the gearbox?

Hi Lotz-A-Landies

There is a mechanical PTO drive from the rear of the box toward the passenger side of the vehicle, an output drive shaft then runs parallel to the inside of the passenger side chassis rail to the front of the vehicle into the winch housing.

Your observations regarding the mounting of the winch, I cannot explain. It is today as it has been for as long as I've had it. My only thoughts here are that maybe the arrangement was changed to accomodate the Holden engine?. I have heard that in some cases, to fit the engine in, the grill assembly is moved forward. Then again, upon looking at the photo you re-posted. The clearance between the winches rear mounting member and the grill leads me to believe that the winch may not have needed to have been touched when the Holden engine was installed.

Just my thoughts

Hugh

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Hi Hugh

It is possible to fit the Holden engine without the fan cowling behind the radiator (just), but the cooling is very innefficient. You usually also need to fit an electric pusher fan in front of the radiator to keep the Holden engine cool if you don't have the cowling.

The problem for the capstan winch is that the crankshaft centreline is within the diameter of the Holden fan preventing the usual capstan drive and dog-clutch arrangement. Where you have the PTO drive on the capstan gearbox is usually in alignment with the crank handle hole.

Given these design issues, it is likely that the original Army PTO drum winch has been sold/removed at some stage and the capstan retrofitted. The PTO drive you have may be the original from the Bamford.

Do you have the PTO "T" handle protruding through the seat box near the handbrake? If it's the original it will have the word Bamford cast into the handle.

Diana

[hughie88]

Hi Hugh

Do you have the PTO "T" handle protruding through the seat box near the handbrake? If it's the original it will have the word Bamford cast into the handle.

Diana

Diana

Hmmm, I didnt get any photos of that. From memory, the t handle is there. Ill have to get dad to take a couple more photos of that area. The sun and shadow really didnt help with the clarity of the photos I took yesterday.

Ill find out and get back to you.

[hughie88]

Got some photos of the PTO.

Hugh

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yup that's the original PTO for the Army Bamford winches.

I deally you could find one of the drum winch heads and fit it back as it was when it finished service as 174-434.