Are these five school punishments unacceptable?

[DiscoMick]

Read an interesting article from America about what were described as 'five outrageous school punishments that should not happen'. As someone who works in a school in Oz., I can see both sides of this argument. Parents might think these punishments are outrageous, and I wouldn't support all of them myself, but parents don't see the way some kids behave at school, so I can see it from the viewpoint of the schools too. Anyway, I wondered what you'all think about it:


5 Outrageous School Punishments That Should Not Happen



by Steve Williams (http://www.care2.com/causes/author/stevebwilliams)
December 8, 2012
10:00 am



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We all recognize the tough job schools face in creating a nurturing education environment for their pupils. We also understand that appropriate discipline is vital to fostering a fair and respectful climate within schools — however, sometimes schools go too far.
Below are five recent news stories ranging from the ill-judged to the outrageous about when school discipline goes terribly wrong.

1) Using same-sex hand-holding as a punishment — Two male students caught fighting at Westwood High in Mesa, Arizona, were told they could either face suspension or hold hands for 15 minutes in the school courtyard. They chose the latter. The two unnamed high school kids were then pictured (http://sdgln.com/news/2012/12/01/male-students-forced-hold-hands-punishment-criticized-bullying) shielding their faces during this punishment as a group of kids taunted them with anti-gay language. The punishment provoked an angry reaction from some at the school who said it was reinforcing negative attitudes about being gay by making same-sex contact into a punishment.
The school district responded swiftly, saying (http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_southeast_valley/mesa/two-mesa-students-forced-to-hold-hands-as-punishment-for-fighting) in a statement that “the district does not condone the choice of in-school discipline given these students, regardless of their acceptance or willingness to participate. District leadership will address this matter with the school principal and review district protocol regarding student discipline with all administrators.”
The principal of the school has received substantial support from within the school however, (http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_southeast_valley/mesa/kids-forced-to-hold-hands-firestorm-grows-over-valley-students-made-to-hold-hands-as-punishment) with a campaign in his favor saying the punishment was never meant to be anti-gay. They also point out this was elective — the boys could have chosen suspension.
However, critics say that, while recognizing this situation was not brought about by anti-gay animus, it allowed for a climate in which the two boys were then subjected to anti-gay taunts. This, whether intentional or not, demonstrates how ill-judged the punishment was. It also may have exposed other students, perhaps struggling with their sexuality, to a display of anti-gay treatment that could have a greater impact on their well-being.

2) Paddling – When 19-year old Taylor Santos, a high-achieving student and athlete at Springtown High School near Fort Worth, Texas, was accused in September of letting another kid copy her homework, she got to choose her punishment: two days of suspension or being paddled.
Due to the fact that she didn’t want to miss a day of school, she chose paddling. When Santos’ mom later learned the school’s male vice-principal carried out the punishment, she was livid. She also questioned the punishment, which she said left her daughter bruised and her skin “fire-engine red.” You can read the full story here (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/mom-angry-male-vice-principal-spanked-her-daughter-234456335--abc-news-topstories.html).
In 19 states in the U.S., spanking children using a wooden or fiberglass paddle is still entirely legal (http://www.care2.com/causes/why-is-spanking-at-school-still-legal-in-19-states.html). This is despite the fact that according to ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/spanking-school-19-states-corporal-punishment-legal/story?id=15932135#.UFObUL-eQww), up to 20,000 public school students each year seek medical treatment after they have been paddled. There is also research that says school kids who are subjected to this form of corporal punishment are likely to become more aggressive. Many mainstream medical bodies are also against the practice (http://apsa.org/About_APsaA/Position_Statements/Physical_Punishment.aspx). Why, then, is corporal punishment still legal, and why is it part of the Texas Republican party’s platform (http://www.care2.com/causes/the-5-craziest-policies-in-texas-republicans-2012-platform.html)?

3) Placing kids in padded isolation rooms — When outraged mother Ana Bate discovered (http://www.presstv.ir/usdetail/275281.html) that Mint Valley Elementary School in Longview, Washington, was using a padded isolation chamber to deal with her child and other students who they deemed had “behavioral disabilities,” she took pictures of the padded cell — or “therapeutic booth” as the school termed it — and posted them to Facebook. Like Bate, this policy was not something other parents were aware of and they reacted angrily to the news.
There are also reports (http://www.kivitv.com/news/local/181639711.html) of a teacher at Washington Elementary in Caldwell who forgot she had isolated a child in this manner, leaving the child in the room for a protracted length of time, despite the policy saying that an adult must be present to “de-escalate” the situation. Another report has also emerged from Idaho (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/upset-dad-kindergarten-son-locked-room-17852061#.UL3al4PZaSr) of a father who was angered when his 5-year-old son was put in an isolation room and then also forgotten about for over an hour.
To be clear, separating one child from other children may be necessary in specific circumstances where the child’s behavior reaches a point where they become unmanageable and a potential danger to themselves or others, but that certainly does not mean that solitary confinement is the only option. Furthermore, the use of isolation as a form of punishment has been shown to be very distressing to kids both young and older. There is also evidence to suggest that solitary confinement actually can increase aggressive behavior rather than calm child behavior.
You can see a video of the “isolation booths” here (http://www.infowars.com/school-places-unruly-kids-in-solitary-confinement/).

4) Withholding food from underprivileged children – A school in Michigan hit the headlines recently when, as a response to a large-scale food-fight in the school’s cafeteria, the administration decided to stop serving lunch to sixth through eighth graders for a week (http://www.michronicleonline.com/index.php/local/news-briefs/8453-school-stop-serving-lunch-to-punish-students-for-food-fight). They sent a letter home saying kids would simply have to bring their own food. However, parents were outraged.
The school, Bethune Elementary-Middle school, is part of the Educational Achievement Authority, a statewide school district that includes the state’s worst-performing schools.
Many of the district’s pupils are under-privileged and rely on the federal Community Eligibility Option program which states that all EAA schools are expected to provide students with a free breakfast, lunch and dinner.
In depriving sixth through eighth graders of their school lunches, there was a very real possibility that many children simply would not have a replacement meal available that day.
Again, this was a case of poor judgment that should not have happened. Fortunately, on learning about the school’s threat to withhold lunches, the EAA spoke with the school’s administration and had the decision reversed (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121105/SCHOOLS/211050452/1409/metro/Detroit-school-draws-criticism-after-disciplining-students-by-not-serving-lunch).

5) Kids being arrested for minor school infractions — In August, the Department of Justice sent a letter to Lauderdale County, Mississippi (http://www.care2.com/causes/doj-students-school-to-prison-pipeline-mississippi.html), accusing it of operating what was in effect a “school-to-prison pipeline (http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/10/us/mississippi-juvenile-justice/index.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3 A+Top+Stories%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo).” It says students — a disproportionate number of whom were African-American or had disabilities — were arrested and incarcerated for offenses that, in many cases, were minor levels of disobedience like wearing the wrong colored socks.
The DOJ was hoping to negotiate a solution and gave Lauderdale County 60 days to respond. Since no meaningful talks were had, the County is now the subject of a lawsuit in which the DOJ says that not only are students having their rights infringed by incidents like these, but that the County is actively planning for involving law authorities in the disciplining of the County’s school children.
“For example, some Behavior Intervention Plans prepared by the district for students with disabilities have listed ‘Juvenile Detention Center’ as a consequence for student misbehavior,” the lawsuit says (http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2012/oct/24/doj-lauderdale-county-violates-students-rights/).

Putting School Behavior Problems in Perspective
To be absolutely clear, it is important to stress that on the whole teachers and school administrators do an admirable and even exemplary job of educating America’s young people, and that the above incidents are not reflective of the wider behavioral management in schools.
However, these incidents, and their alarming frequency, have raised concerns that certain districts across the country are not acting appropriately or even lawfully when disciplining the children in their care.

Related Stories
Every 23 Seconds A Child Is Beaten At School (Video) (http://www.care2.com/causes/every-23-seconds-a-child-is-beaten-at-school.html)
Care2 Success: Jacksonville Public Schools Must Stop Handcuffing For Non-Crimes (http://www.care2.com/causes/care2-success-jackson-public-schools-must-stop-handcuffing-for-noncrimes.html)
The 5 Craziest Policies In Texas Republicans’ 2012 Platform (http://www.care2.com/causes/the-5-craziest-policies-in-texas-republicans-2012-platform.html)

Read more: behavioral management schools (http://www.care2.com/causes/tag/behavioral-management-schools), corporal punishment in schools (http://www.care2.com/causes/tag/corporal-punishment-in-schools), education (http://www.care2.com/causes/tag/education-2), paddling (http://www.care2.com/causes/tag/paddling), paddling in schools (http://www.care2.com/causes/tag/paddling-in-schools), school discipline (http://www.care2.com/causes/tag/school-discipline), spanking in schools (http://www.care2.com/causes/tag/spanking-in-schools)
Image credit: Thinkstock.



Read more: 5 Outrageous School Punishments That Should Not Happen | Care2 Causes (http://www.care2.com/causes/5-outrageous-school-punishments-that-should-not-happen.html#ixzz2EbXVc94D)

[Landy Smurf]

Not yet a teacher but I can tell you that they are all bad.
The same sex holding hands might be ok at first but the chance that they will get teased and feel humiliated is very high, so there for wrong.

[Hymie]

I made a class group of year 8's that wouldn't behave on the walk to a school assembly walk like Preppies. Side by Side and holding hands to the Hall.
Mind you, I took them the back way so they were not seen by the other kids.
Not a peep was heard from them, they were very well behaved and they still talk about it years after.

[Eevo]

holding hands - no. i think humiliation is a good treatment but in our gay friendlys society, it isnt ok


paddling - yes.

isolation room - yes

remove food - yes, they abuse it, they lose it

arresting - no

[460cixy]

Its all pretty crook. I can't see the problem with a good paddling tho if its deserved and carried out properly not over bored like I have heard stories from the old timers

[UncleHo]

Ooh! I must be old, at primary school (Qld) if you played up slightly it was anything from 100 written lines to 500,and if it was a bad offence it was the cane,from Yr4 up Yr8,2-4-or 6, and at highschool,it was the cane or suspension,I can only remember one student being expelled,(he brought a .22 pistol to school) we went shooting in the local water filled quarrie at lunch time :D locals heard the shooting and called the Plods :( result was his expulsion,and 6 cuts(strokes) of the cane each morning for a week :twisted:

NB. all caning teachers were licensed to do so.

[PeterM]

Not yet a teacher but I can tell you that they are all bad.
The same sex holding hands might be ok at first but the chance that they will get teased and feel humiliated is very high, so there for wrong.

The word is 'therefore'. For someone working on becoming a teacher, focus on details such as spelling and grammar.

As for the punishments -

1. Big deal, its imaginative and done as an embarrassment strategy, rather than being anti-gay. How many teenage boys can you think of that would like to hold hands?

2. Paddling? Not a problem. I was paddled at school once and once only. It is not a licence to beat someone, in this situation, a female staff member ought to have been present at least.

3. Isolation rooms, don't know about how they are being used there. Isolation can be very confronting and for some, damaging. Naughty corner is probably more appropriate.

4. Withholding food for those without another option is not on but cause and effect needs to be reinforced. Perhaps a better way to deal with that one would be for the students to be placed onto a cleaning roster for the canteen.

5. A waste of police resources but if they want to put some fear into them about the potential path, organise tours by class or targeted groups of the process, including correctional facilities.

[Landy Smurf]

I do not believe in physical punishment to an extent such as the cane-unacceptable, picking up papers and writing lines-acceptable
something that is very apparent is that something needs to be done drastically more in the high schools.
The one thing that always annoyed me was when people would truant and those who would smoke especially at school.
I use to get detention a lot for talking in class, yes i should have got in trouble but I always thought why should I get in trouble when those who are smoking under age in a non-smoking zone get off without anything.
I asked the teachers this, their response was what can you do and that there was too much paperwork.
Now I am not a teacher yet so I don't know how they feel, but i know how i felt and how i feel now and that is, you have a responsibility for those kids while they are under your care/at school and something like paperwork is not an excuse.
ok just realised getting offtrack sorry

[UncleHo]

The cane was administered on the palm of the hands,6=3 left 3 right, and the canes in the cane cupboard were of various sizes,thin to thick (8mm) or so,depending on the age and size of the child, it was quite an achievement to get 6 and not tear-up as a primary schooler, grade 8 was about 14 year olds;)

[Landy Smurf]

If the information won't sink in, we will belt it in..

[UncleHo]

No, it was mainly behavior punishment, not lack of understanding by the pupil, we all respected our teacher, and would VERY RARELY talk back to one.

I still remember my teachers with affection, and see one at our High School reunions, he is in his 80's now, and still involved with church run education in Qld :)

[DiscoMick]

My experience is that most kids are fine, but there are a few who just want to push the boundaries all the time. Mostly, I handle that with some well-chosen words delivered quietly, but firmly, a bit of humour and boundary-setting, but occasionally you just have to stand them up, preferably in front of the others, and make it clear that their behaviour is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Once done, that's usually the end of it. Mind you, they're much more likely to accept it if they have seen you previously go out of your way to help them, and be reasonable to them. If you're always a tyrant over trivia, then discipline becomes much harder when there really is a problem.

Our school has a room which troublesome students can be sent to for supervision and they then have to go through activities set by the reporting teacher satisfactorily and fully before being allowed back into class. And the parents are called in to be told why there is a problem. Usually that is all that is needed, but there are occasional expulsions. Being a non-government school we can expel, but try very hard to avoid it.

[George130]

From my school experiences. Holding hands - Suspend me thanks. But I would be happy to break his nose next time.

Cane - If it is resonable for the crime.
With holding food. ok or have them fed in small groups with no talking and a time limit to eat.
Isolation - some times I can see it would be required but needs to be carefully controlled.

Teachers don't have any real control left in Aus.

But then when I was at school if I believed I was in the right nothing you said or did would change my view and I did argue back and even got the cane for not changing my view (Still to this day believe I was right on that one).

[BBC]

Isn't it amazing what holding hands can mean in different cultures?

In Australia and so many 'advanced/developed' western cultures, it is interpreted as being 'gay' if two males hold each other's hand.

Here in Mozambique and, in much of Africa, you hold the hand of your friend and it means, that you are....friends.

Holding hands...a genuine and very human experience. How advanced are western cultures?

[Tombie]

Far out you've all gone soft in the heads..

Bring on the Cane ;)

[Chops]

If the information won't sink in, we will belt it in..

It's not a case of belting it in, but to see young kids today with what seems like no dicsapline or respect, I'm a firm believer in the cane. Most of my mates received the cane on several occasions, it did us no harm physically or mentally, ok, so we had a sore ass and were embarressed for a week or so, but it helped teach us respect for all around us, as well as the dicsapline to behave in a proper socially acceptable manner.

I don't believe any form of punishment will actually make anyone a more intelligent/brainier person.

I went to a grammar school which cost mum and dad an arm and a leg, and essentially I don't believe did anything "special" to make me better educated than a high school,, but I will say, most of us had respect and manners than my other mates that did high/tech schools.

Now if you did high school, and came out better than my mates, well done,, this is only an observation from me to my mates and other kids of my time/my area/my group.

[Chops]

Isn't it amazing what holding hands can mean in different cultures?

In Australia and so many 'advanced/developed' western cultures, it is interpreted as being 'gay' if two males hold each other's hand.

Here in Mozambique and, in much of Africa, you hold the hand of your friend and it means, that you are....friends.

Holding hands...a genuine and very human experience. How advanced are western cultures?

It's the same in India. Was strange to see at first, but not being homophobic allowed me to see it for what it was. Which helped when a couple of the guys I worked with thought enough of me to want to hold my hand. :eek: a bit of a shock that was, but I did feel honored. :D

[Landy Smurf]

i was just joking with the belting thing, there is no way it will come back in as we have moved way to far in the opposite direction.
But something drastic needs to be done.
I know it varies from place to place but here anyone can get a job and most don't care about school because they know they can get a well paying job anyway so why bother.
do you guys have any suggestion besides the cane, just out of interest that is

[1976_michelle]

the holding hands thing...it wasnt meant to be gay or anything, if the combatants had both been girls, or one of each - the holding hands would not have been looked at twice. What should be questioned is the other childrens reactions to it, which were clearly a reflection of the general feeling of many people in that community and that they felt it was ok harangue other students for whatever reason

[debruiser]

Ooh! I must be old, at primary school (Qld) if you played up slightly it was anything from 100 written lines to 500,and if it was a bad offence it was the cane,from Yr4 up Yr8,2-4-or 6, and at highschool,it was the cane or suspension,I can only remember one student being expelled,(he brought a .22 pistol to school) we went shooting in the local water filled quarrie at lunch time :D locals heard the shooting and called the Plods :( result was his expulsion,and 6 cuts(strokes) of the cane each morning for a week :twisted:

NB. all caning teachers were licensed to do so.

Lets bring this back! we'd have some form of control over students at school!

[akelly]

If a 'punishment' doesn't reduce the rate of occurence of the problem behaviour (and none of those listed would) then it doesn't work.

Simple. Like people that use violence against kids.

Physical violence against kids (or anyone) is moronic, doesn't work, and produces adults that think physical violence is an appropriate way to control the behaviour of others. Any act of violence against a kid by an adult is an admission that the adult has lost control, is too stupid to think of another option, and that they have been intellectually bested by a child.

Don't agree? I don't care: the science is in.

[pizzapete]

Too many ****weak parents these days that don,t discipline their kids making it harder for the schools to teach and discipline effectively. Too many rights and these kids know it and use it. When I went to school the cane was used and was feared by most I mean who really wants to get the cane so was a good deterrent. There is now no deterrent and you can see that in the attitudes of a large percentage of the kids today. Physical punishment is not meant to be abuse and anyone abusing kids should be dealt with but physical pain (probably not the right choice of words) is or was a good deterrent growing up. I can tell the difference in mates (adults) that I grew up with who had the smack on the bum to those that didn't.

[akelly]

Too many ****weak parents these days that don,t discipline their kids making it harder for the schools to teach and discipline effectively. Too many rights and these kids know it and use it. When I went to school the cane was used and was feared by most I mean who really wants to get the cane so was a good deterrent. There is now no deterrent and you can see that in the attitudes of a large percentage of the kids today. Physical punishment is not meant to be abuse and anyone abusing kids should be dealt with but physical pain (probably not the right choice of words) is or was a good deterrent growing up. I can tell the difference in mates (adults) that I grew up with who had the smack on the bum to those that didn't.

So you're happy with parents and teachers that use physical violence against kids? That's the way forward is it?

[DiscoWeb]

Too many ****weak parents these days that don,t discipline their kids making it harder for the schools to teach and discipline effectively.

I totally agree, it comes straight back to the parents.

Little John or Jane is a complete ratbag, no discipline, Mum and Dad (more often than not unfortunately only one at home I would guess) provide no guidance and or discipline in the home environment.

Kiddie goes to school, no concept of boundaries or discipline, teacher reacts and parents get all indignant,

How often do these parents find out what their little precious did and say to them, you got what you deserved.

Now perhaps they could then go to the school in private and say, hey that was a bit harsh I am not happy. But no they make a song and dance in from of the little ratbag, put it on facebook and the kiddie learns, if I make a big deal of it I get away with anything !!

The odd flogging did me no harm, I knew the rules and the consequences of breaking them, sore hands or a smack on the butt, sometimes I figured the risk was worth the reward other times not.

That is a pretty valuable life lesson in my book.

Respect and self discipline must start at home, you can not abrogate that responsibility to the school system and then complain about it.

Not to say all the examples below are correct but if you fight, having to then holding hands with your opponent is a great punishment, not because it means you are "gay" but means you have to deal with this person in a differnet way.

Throw the food we give you, you must not be very hungry, bring your own food for a week and you might respect the fact you are getting fed !

A paddle for cheating big deal, does it matter if it was a male or femaile teacher, no provided there was nothing else untoward.

A padded cell/isolation room, how about ringing the parent/s and getting them to collect the child and they can sort out the behaviour.

Arrest for minor school infringements ? does not sound right?

As the father of a 13 yr old girl and 10 yr old boy I know how much fun and how difficult they can be and I expect the school to educate them and give them positive examples that build on what my wife and I do at home. If they get into trouble I ask them why, "I do not know" is not an acceptable answer !!

End of my rant.

George

[DiscoMick]

I think the basic issue is that young people must learn that actions have consequences, which may not be pleasant. How to let them suffer those consequences without suffering permanent injury is the issue. Done well, they learn a valuable life-lesson.
I see no problem with denying food if students throw their food around. You misuse it, you lose it. Being hungry until they get home won't hurt them, but it might be something they remember.
Isolation is not just an issue for the student, but is also an issue for protecting other students. In a class of say 25, if one child is violent the teacher has a WHS responsibility to take reasonable actions to protect the other 24 from the violent one. Isolation can be that way. Its the same as parents sending their children to their bedrooms if they misbehave. Its a better alternatvie than smacking.
If a child commits a crime against another student, then the school has a legal responsibility to involve the police. Examples are physical and sexual assault. The school is legally obliged to involve the police. If the parents don't like that, its too bad. The rights of the victim override those of others.
Joyriding is an example with older students. I have shown Google images pics of road accidents to young people to warn them about the reality of car crashes. Its not just the driver but also the others in the vehicle who need to know.
Personally, I don't support caning. Its just teaching kids that violence is an OK way to respond to a problem, which is a bad lesson. There are smarter ways to deal with this.

[Disco44]

[
Personally, I don't support caning. Its just teaching kids that violence is an OK way to respond to a problem, which is a bad lesson. There are smarter ways to deal with this.[/QUOTE]

That bit I do not agree with.It has been proven that " politically correctness" which your chain of thoughts come under,has failed in every aspect.I,have just seen from a recently immigrated family from England what was issued to their son by way of a card on his rights under everyone, teachers and parents included and it is no wonder,in my mind and his parents too,why those riots of recent times happened and why they consider the UK is down the gurgler.
A good whack never hurt me and if deserving should still be given if it is justified.

[Eevo]

kids dont have the mental ability (im not explained this right) to know that running across the road is dangerous.

smacking them over the hand is a negative re-enforcement technique that can be undersdtood.

running across rd = hurt hand. i dont like hurt hand, i wont run across rd.

[akelly]

kids dont have the mental ability (im not explained this right) to know that running across the road is dangerous.

smacking them over the hand is a negative re-enforcement technique that can be undersdtood.

running across rd = hurt hand. i dont like hurt hand, i wont run across rd.

You don't understand negative reinforcement.

[akelly]

[
Personally, I don't support caning. Its just teaching kids that violence is an OK way to respond to a problem, which is a bad lesson. There are smarter ways to deal with this.

That bit I do not agree with.It has been proven that " politically correctness" which your chain of thoughts come under,has failed in every aspect.I,have just seen from a recently immigrated family from England what was issued to their son by way of a card on his rights under everyone, teachers and parents included and it is no wonder,in my mind and his parents too,why those riots of recent times happened and why they consider the UK is down the gurgler.
A good whack never hurt me and if deserving should still be given if it is justified.[/QUOTE]

So a footballer whose girlfriend wont listen is OK to give her a 'good whack' then, is he?

People that use violence against kids are weak, stupid and offensive in every way.

[Eevo]

You don't understand negative reinforcement.

compared to postive which is giving them a lolly.

i'll give you my 1st year psych txt book if you need to look it up

[Rusnut]

That bit I do not agree with.It has been proven that " politically correctness" which your chain of thoughts come under,has failed in every aspect.I,have just seen from a recently immigrated family from England what was issued to their son by way of a card on his rights under everyone, teachers and parents included and it is no wonder,in my mind and his parents too,why those riots of recent times happened and why they consider the UK is down the gurgler.
A good whack never hurt me and if deserving should still be given if it is justified.

So a footballer whose girlfriend wont listen is OK to give her a 'good whack' then, is he?

People that use violence against kids are weak, stupid and offensive in every way.[/QUOTE]

better stop slapping little john thomas around so much then hadn't you[/FONT]

[akelly]

compared to postive which is giving them a lolly.

i'll give you my 1st year psych txt book if you need to look it up

You may want to review it yourself. You are wrong, again.

[pizzapete]

So you're happy with parents and teachers that use physical violence against kids? That's the way forward is it?

Thought we were talking about discipline not abuse.

Worked for me growing up. Do wrong thing cop a smack (not a beating) = dont think I'll do that again. As someone else said sometimes the punishment was worth the risk mostly not :angel:.
Disco mick I think your on the money. Life is full of consequences for the actions we take and whether those consequences are right or wrong we have to live by our choices.

[akelly]

Thought we were talking about discipline not abuse.

Worked for me growing up. Do wrong thing cop a smack (not a beating) = dont think I'll do that again. As someone else said sometimes the punishment was worth the risk mostly not :angel:.
Disco mick I think your on the money. Life is full of consequences for the actions we take and whether those consequences are right or wrong we have to live by our choices.

A physical attack is a physical attack. You are a grown man, how young a kid is it OK for you to strike?

If you want your kids to grow up afraid of you striking them, then go ahead - enjoy the fruits of that in later years.

My parents used to smack me too, right up until I was old enough to smack back. The smacks didn't stop me from doing that thing again, they just made me more sneaky. A typical outcome.

How old a person are you willing to use physical 'discipline' on? Would you use it on a bloke bigger and stronger than you? If not, why not - given it 'works' so well?

Perhaps if kids weren't raised to believe you can control others with physical violence or threats, the world might be a different place?

Cheers,

Adam

[pizzapete]

A physical attack is a physical attack. You are a grown man, how young a kid is it OK for you to strike?

If you want your kids to grow up afraid of you striking them, then go ahead - enjoy the fruits of that in later years.

My parents used to smack me too, right up until I was old enough to smack back. The smacks didn't stop me from doing that thing again, they just made me more sneaky. A typical outcome.

How old a person are you willing to use physical 'discipline' on? Would you use it on a bloke bigger and stronger than you? If not, why not - given it 'works' so well?

Perhaps if kids weren't raised to believe you can control others with physical violence or threats, the world might be a different place?

Cheers,

Adam

Yep you're obviously right. Didn't teach you any respect at all.
A mix of both positive and negative reinforcement is what I believe works. It has so far. I dont go out of my way to hit my child I really dont like having to but after several warnings with no effect then I have resorted to a smack on the bum. Oops it seems to work. But I also make him fully aware of why. Consequences for actions.

[akelly]

For those playing along at home, wondering about the whole 'punishment/reinforcement' thing, here's the cliff notes:

Positive Reinforcement: Giving something pleasurable to increase the likelihood of the desireable behaviour. An example is if a kid does something good, you give them praise (or a sticker, hand stamp, etc...)

Negative Reinforcement: Taking away something unpleasant to increase the likelihood of the desireable behaviour. An example is if a kid cleans their room you stop nagging them.

Negative Punishment: Taking away something pleasant to reduce the likelihood of the undesired behaviour. An example is not getting desert if you don't eat your dinner.

Positive Punishment: Giving something unpleasant to reduce the likelihood of the undesired behaviour. An example is smaking or spanking a kid after they do something wrong.

A couple of traps:

1. Every person is different. What is punishing for some will be reinforcing for others. Some kids may get reinforced by getting whacked (some attention is better than none).

2. Punishment is only punishment if it reduces the problem behaviour. For example, if your kid is talking back and you whack them, but they keep talking back in the future, the whacking is not a punishment for that kid.

3. The person dealing out the punishment can become a 'conditioned punisher'. That means the presence of that person becomes a punishment in itself. Think of kids hiding from their dad because he's the one that uses the strap. You DONT want to be a conditioned punisher to your kids, do you?

4. Reinforcement is better than punishment because it is closer to the way the world works. It also rewards positive behaviour, which is much better than punishing failure. The other big advantage is that it feels good to give reinforcement.

5. The best, cheapest and most effective reinforcement available to humans is praise. Tell someone they are doing a great job and they will keep doing it. It has to be sincere though - people can spot a BS line!

These concepts are pretty poorly understood by most people. I hope this little post clears it up.

Cheers,

Adam

[akelly]

Yep you're obviously right. Didn't teach you any respect at all.
A mix of both positive and negative reinforcement is what I believe works. It has so far. I dont go out of my way to hit my child I really dont like having to but after several warnings with no effect then I have resorted to a smack on the bum. Oops it seems to work. But I also make him fully aware of why. Consequences for actions.

So basically, when you run out of ideas to control your kid's behaviour, you resort to violence.

What an excellent approach.

[pizzapete]

So basically, when you run out of ideas to control your kid's behaviour, you resort to violence.

What an excellent approach.
Whatever turns you on mate. Gotta love the PC brigade. My kid is neither verbally or physically abused. Suppose you want to criminalise the use of crops in horse racing to. Yet another form of physical abuse. Ban boxing? :angel:

[akelly]

Whatever turns you on mate. Gotta love the PC brigade. My kid is neither verbally or physically abused. Suppose you want to criminalise the use of crops in horse racing to. Yet another form of physical abuse. Ban boxing? :angel:

You shouldn't suppose what others think mate. You should just ask. That way you don't look like such a pillock, dragging up red herring arguments to change the subject.

What you do with your kids is your business, not mine. I'm telling you what I think and know - read it, don't read it, agree, disagree. It's all the same to me.

Cheers,

Adam

[Tombie]

I would like to point out...

Name calling is judgmental statements constitute harassment / verbal assault.

They (in our PC climate) are also unacceptable :)

Yet (me included) we are quite guilty of it... Hey Adam ;)

[akelly]

I would like to point out...

Name calling is judgmental statements constitute harassment / verbal assault.

They (in our PC climate) are also unacceptable :)

Yet (me included) we are quite guilty of it... Hey Adam ;)

Good point Tombie. Have I done bad? I feel like I was batting away the insults, rather than dishing them out... Perception is a bastard though, so I've probably stepped on someones toes!

Apologies all 'round! Now gimme a hug. :angel:

Cheers,

Adam

[Tombie]

Wasn't aimed solely mate...

I am as guilty - just not this thread.

And so are others.

[Chops]

Whatever happend to the "Pecking order"?
As I understand it, every animal on the planet has it in one way or another.
This starts as a child, so you know where you stand in life. It builds respect disapline in all aspects of life.
It's a pretty shoddie affair when a kid tells grandpa to "F off".
And as for footballers, or any man for that matter if belting his girlfriend should ust be drawn and quartered. ;) That'll bring the creeps back into line quick smart ;)

[DiscoMick]

Back in the old days, someone who behaved that way would have been locked up in the stocks in the middle of the village to be abused and pelted with eggs for as long as it took to get the message over that the behaviour was unacceptable. Those who didn't get the mesage would have been run out of the village and warned not to come back. Not that I'm recommending those forms of punishment, but its a fact that sometimes people just have to be made to understand their behaviour is unacceptable, and given the boot if they don't comply, to protect society as a whole.

[richard4u2]

Ooh! I must be old, at primary school (Qld) if you played up slightly it was anything from 100 written lines to 500,and if it was a bad offence it was the cane,from Yr4 up Yr8,2-4-or 6, and at highschool,it was the cane or suspension,I can only remember one student being expelled,(he brought a .22 pistol to school) we went shooting in the local water filled quarrie at lunch time :D locals heard the shooting and called the Plods :( result was his expulsion,and 6 cuts(strokes) of the cane each morning for a week :twisted:

NB. all caning teachers were licensed to do so.
we got the cuts for going down to the river for a swim at lunch time :Rolling::Rolling:

[akelly]

Back in the olden days people thought lobotomy was a cure for stuttering, the earth was the centre of the universe and the sun was a god riding a chariot across the sky.

They were wrong. Go figure.

[Marshall]

You would think expelling a student for rape would be an acceptable school punishment...


Apparently not...

Headmaster won't expel boy charged with rape (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/headmaster-wont-expel-boy-charged-with-rape-20121209-2b3k5.html)

[Disco44]

That bit I do not agree with.It has been proven that " politically correctness" which your chain of thoughts come under,has failed in every aspect.I,have just seen from a recently immigrated family from England what was issued to their son by way of a card on his rights under everyone, teachers and parents included and it is no wonder,in my mind and his parents too,why those riots of recent times happened and why they consider the UK is down the gurgler.
A good whack never hurt me and if deserving should still be given if it is justified.

So a footballer whose girlfriend wont listen is OK to give her a 'good whack' then, is he?

People that use violence against kids are weak, stupid and offensive in every way.[/QUOTE]
That's your way of thinking not mine,thank god we live in Australia where we have free speech don't you think? I take it you had the perfect parents who at no time yelled at you nor raised a hand ,you also had the perfect teachers who at no time did the same.IMHO It all started with the movie " The blackboard Jungle" in the 1950's ,and " Please Sir" in the 1960's now look where it has us.I'm pleased my parenting days are over and that I'm not a teacher.How do we get our world back?You appear to be the expert,tell us especially, me I only raised four boys my way which was the old way.They went to private school and were disciplined when they stepped out of line with a good thump ,they told me, and ,guess what, they all turned out great.
John.[/FONT]

[richard4u2]

with num 5 it does not say how long the kid is in the slammer for it may just be for an hour or two i think a kid who thinks he can do what ever he likes to who ever he wants a short stint inside of a jali to give him/her the taste of life is going to be like if him/her carry on with what they are doing . i have been on a night tour at the fremantle jail and at one point a jail door is slamed shut and it made everyone jump i think would do a lot of good to someone thinking he/she does not have to abide by the rules

[PeterM]

Adam, it is patently obvious that you are steadfast in your beliefs (they are just that as opposed to facts) and have no problem introducing straw man arguments whenever it gets a little hard for you. What you fail to grasp is something that you brought up yourself, that is that all people are different. There is no 'one size fits all' approach but a handful of options that are brought to bear as appropriate.

Know that you cannot reason with everyone, be they a child, teen or adult. There are those who do not possess the ability to reason for any number of reasons.

Some people can be reasoned with and a solution found with little trouble.

Everyone falls somewhere in between this.

[UncleHo]

The ability to get a message through to young people was tragically brought to people's mind in a recent current affairs program where a Policeman's daughter, after many warnings from her father, died whilst texting while driving, straight into a tree.

What a tragic lose of a young life :(

And so preventable.

[DiscoWeb]

So basically, when you run out of ideas to control your kid's behaviour, you resort to violence.

What an excellent approach.

Adam you seem to use very emotive language to make your point, a curiously common occurrence for people arguing these points ?

I personally do not consider smacking my child on the bum, because they have crossed the line violent or abusive. I did not consider being hit with a cane or strap at school violent abuse either.

You set some boundaries, if they are crossed there are consequences. Sometime talk and negative reinforcement or negative punishment simply do not work.

Now there are plenty of examples where violence is used. Unfortunately most common in domestic situations and that is totally unacceptable, but to condemn everything as abuse or violence is excessive.

Now I do not expect you to change your views, but I do take offence at the veiled inference that if you do physically discipline your children you are some sort of violent abuser helping to perpetuate abuse in future generations.

If there is no middle ground for you that is fine, but it does not make you right.

George

[akelly]

Adam, it is patently obvious that you are steadfast in your beliefs (they are just that as opposed to facts) and have no problem introducing straw man arguments whenever it gets a little hard for you. What you fail to grasp is something that you brought up yourself, that is that all people are different. There is no 'one size fits all' approach but a handful of options that are brought to bear as appropriate.

Know that you cannot reason with everyone, be they a child, teen or adult. There are those who do not possess the ability to reason for any number of reasons.

Some people can be reasoned with and a solution found with little trouble.

Everyone falls somewhere in between this.

Are you suggesting that when you are unable to reason with a child you should resort to violence?

You may be interested to know that animals can be taught very sophisticated behaviour (like finding explosives for example) solely through reinforcement. The animals don't need to be struck in this process. Humans have the advantage of language (most of us), so we can take advantage of something called 'rule governed behaviour' - basically we can tell someone what we want them to do, rather than waiting for them to do a close approximation of the target behaviour (like we have to do with animals).

Please point out my straw man arguments, because I'm always keen to learn from my mistakes.

Cheers,

Adam

[akelly]

Adam you seem to use very emotive language to make your point, a curiously common occurrence for people arguing these points ?

I personally do not consider smacking my child on the bum, because they have crossed the line violent or abusive. I did not consider being hit with a cane or strap at school violent abuse either.

You set some boundaries, if they are crossed there are consequences. Sometime talk and negative reinforcement or negative punishment simply do not work.

Now there are plenty of examples where violence is used. Unfortunately most common in domestic situations and that is totally unacceptable, but to condemn everything as abuse or violence is excessive.

Now I do not expect you to change your views, but I do take offence at the veiled inference that if you do physically discipline your children you are some sort of violent abuser helping to perpetuate abuse in future generations.

If there is no middle ground for you that is fine, but it does not make you right.

George

Would you spank an adult the way you might have spanked your kids (or been spanked yourself)? What would you expect the result to be?

Take whatever offence you feel is appropriate to your situation. The inference is not veiled, I've made it quite clear I think. An adult hiting a child is abuse - that might make you feel uncomfortable, doesn't change the facts.

Not sure why it's so hard to understand for some people - hitting someone is an admission you have run out of other ideas. It's a failure.

Cheers,

Adam

[DiscoWeb]

Would you spank an adult the way you might have spanked your kids (or been spanked yourself)? What would you expect the result to be?

Take whatever offence you feel is appropriate to your situation. The inference is not veiled, I've made it quite clear I think. An adult hiting a child is abuse - that might make you feel uncomfortable, doesn't change the facts.

Not sure why it's so hard to understand for some people - hitting someone is an admission you have run out of other ideas. It's a failure.

Cheers,

Adam

Adam,

Thanks. It must be great to live in a world of such black and white, I see shades, you do not ?

Additionally, and to my earlier point about use of emotive language I believe I said smacked, not spanked.

By using spank you are suggesting I am hitting my kids multiple times, not singular like a smack.

Again a seemingly small change in words actually has quite a large change in context and intent.

You are obviously passionate about this and as I noted I have no desire to change your opinion and frankly what you think of me is not relevant either so we will continue to disagree on this.

George

[akelly]

Adam,

Thanks. It must be great to live in a world of such black and white, I see shades, you do not ?

Additionally, and to my earlier point about use of emotive language I believe I said smacked, not spanked.

By using spank you are suggesting I am hitting my kids multiple times, not singular like a smack.

Again a seemingly small change in words actually has quite a large change in context and intent.

You are obviously passionate about this and as I noted I have no desire to change your opinion and frankly what you think of me is not relevant either so we will continue to disagree on this.

George

Ok, smack it is. So would you smack an adult to change their behaviour?

I know lots of people hit (smack, spank, whatever) their kids, it's a 'tradition' of sorts I suppose, and I know that most do it with the best of intentions. All I'm suggesting is that people consider what it really means for a child to be struck by an adult, and consider what other alternatives there may be.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect adults to have a wide range of skills and techniques to control and shape their kids behaviour, do you?

As for shades - what you and I perceive is irrelevant, it's what the child being struck perceives that is important. If you deploy physical violence (even one 'smack') to control their behaviour, you send the clear message: 'when I can no longer control the situation, resorting to my superior physical strength over you is how I will regain control'. Simple message, but is it a good one?

Cheers,

Adam

[Landy Smurf]

lol at your reason for editing

[Chops]

I don't have a dictionary handy, but I'm sure there is a huge difference between violence and disapline.
I think most of us would agree, disapline, ie something like a smack, is very different to violence, which is usually related to "beatings/floggings with End results being bruisings and blood etc.
Disapline by most parents is not something that is resorted to when all else fails as, "I'm big and I'm gunna teach you a lesson".
There will always be people who will take something too far, and I would suggest this could be construed as due to a lack of disapline in their own early years maybe, but I'm no Doctor. How you "re-teach" these people so they understand is well beyond me. But I don't believe that there are very many people who would willingly be "violent" with their children.

[akelly]

I don't have a dictionary handy, but I'm sure there is a huge difference between violence and disapline.
I think most of us would agree, disapline, ie something like a smack, is very different to violence, which is usually related to "beatings/floggings with End results being bruisings and blood etc.
Disapline by most parents is not something that is resorted to when all else fails as, "I'm big and I'm gunna teach you a lesson".
There will always be people who will take something too far, and I would suggest this could be construed as due to a lack of disapline in their own early years maybe, but I'm no Doctor. How you "re-teach" these people so they understand is well beyond me. But I don't believe that there are very many people who would willingly be "violent" with their children.

You either hit someone or you don't. You can church it up with sugary sounding names like 'smack', but it doesn't change the fact: if you are striking someone with your hand (or an object), it's physical and it's violent.

Do any of the proponents of 'smacking' want to answer my repeated question: Would you 'smack' an adult to change their behaviour?

[Eevo]

Would you 'smack' an adult to change their behaviour?it sorted out my gf pretty quick. haha, kidding

no, we put them in jail instead.

[bee utey]

You either hit someone or you don't. You can church it up with sugary sounding names like 'smack', but it doesn't change the fact: if you are striking someone with your hand (or an object), it's physical and it's violent.

Do any of the proponents of 'smacking' want to answer my repeated question: Would you 'smack' an adult to change their behaviour?

OK I'll weigh in here. When a child is young, reasoning does not work well. Once you have repeatedly warned them of consequences to which their reply is wilful misbehaviour, then a slap is appropriate. It's the shock value, hey they really mean it. Once the child is old/reasonable enough it is completely useless to smack them, I agree. But against say a 3 year old, it is the weapon of last resort and does them no harm. You would only have to do it a few times for them to get the message. I don't know when was the last time I smacked our now 28 year old, but he certainly hasn't become a violent offender from a few well timed smacks.

However if you lose your cool and wallop the living daylights out of a child, all bets are off. You need help.

[Tombie]

Do any of the proponents of 'smacking' want to answer my repeated question: Would you 'smack' an adult to change their behaviour?

Why do I answer these?! I'm sure to get scorned........... :)

Yes!!!!

The lad was smacked probably 5-10 times over his childhood. Mostly negotiation was used and smacks if it didn't.

Age 16 he started going off the rails.
Groundings, removal of privileges etc was done but he got worse.

Was 'using' girls and getting into lots of trouble. Would mouth off and talk back.
Even raised a fist at his Mum (not a wise choice).

After over 2 years of problems he was running the gauntlet of being kicked out.

I sat him down and explained actions and consequences. I may as well have spoken to the stove...

He mouthed back and was firmly told he was now leaving.

His response - muscle up and swing...

Result: His (now 18yr old) jaw and nose healed in 4-6 weeks and he is now a much more placid and pleasant individual.....

And gets in no trouble...

Some adults are like IBM computers - occasionally the voice interface fails and one has to punch the info in!

[Eevo]

OK I'll weigh in here. When a child is young, reasoning does not work well. Once you have repeatedly warned them of consequences to which their reply is wilful misbehaviour, then a slap is appropriate. It's the shock value, hey they really mean it. Once the child is old/reasonable enough it is completely useless to smack them, I agree. But against say a 3 year old, it is the weapon of last resort and does them no harm. You would only have to do it a few times for them to get the message. I don't know when was the last time I smacked our now 28 year old, but he certainly hasn't become a violent offender from a few well timed smacks.

However if you lose your cool and wallop the living daylights out of a child, all bets are off. You need help.

i have to agree with you. kids dont have the reasoning skills to understand.
and its not just about wilful misbehaviour.

whats works better with a kid who cant reason who just tried to run onto the road. talking to the kid or a smack?

ever watched ncis? gibbs smacking someone on the back of the head. they sure learn quick.

[Chops]

You either hit someone or you don't. You can church it up with sugary sounding names like 'smack', but it doesn't change the fact: if you are striking someone with your hand (or an object), it's physical and it's violent.

Do any of the proponents of 'smacking' want to answer my repeated question: Would you 'smack' an adult to change their behaviour?

Like Tombie, I'll bite.

My mum, about 60-65, 4'9-10" maybe,, me, 40ish at the time, almost 6'.

I swore infront of, at mum one day whilst having a rather heated debate over something.
She wound up and slapped my face for that :eek:

I deserved what I got, and never did it again. My love for mum never wained (S?) at any time ever. But I have more respect for her than any other person on this planet.
Sometimes, even adults need reminding of their place in society.

So your now going to try and tell me she's a violent woman ??

[Sleepy]

It's funny how some always equate discipline with violence.:angel:



NB. all caning teachers were licensed to do so.

Licensed! :Rolling:Ha! Imagine the test.!

The fact is these so-called teachers were sadistic mongrels who could only stand tall in their own pretend little world of intimidation, bullying and violence....but perhaps my experience was different to some!:angel:

Just goes to show you how disproportionate violence directed against a child (under 10) can leave permanent yet invisible scars......even 40 years later.

I spit on the memory of how I was treated by these scum!:mad:

[THE BOOGER]

You would think expelling a student for rape would be an acceptable school punishment...


Apparently not...

Headmaster won't expel boy charged with rape (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/headmaster-wont-expel-boy-charged-with-rape-20121209-2b3k5.html)

Been charged but as yet has not been found guilty if he is then yes expell him he deserves it:( He has been suspended what else can they do?

[THE BOOGER]

You either hit someone or you don't. You can church it up with sugary sounding names like 'smack', but it doesn't change the fact: if you are striking someone with your hand (or an object), it's physical and it's violent.

Do any of the proponents of 'smacking' want to answer my repeated question: Would you 'smack' an adult to change their behaviour?

Just to answer you yes in my line of work I get to "smack" a few adults and it usally changes their behaviour sometimes for the worse but then i get some help from my other "workers":angel:
It is a last resort after trying to get them to behave in a manner acceptable to other patrons but some people only understand the I can hit harder than you equation

[Landy Smurf]

smacking will soon be illegal, look at the way we and the world are heading. everyone threatens to sue. people can use the media to research and exploit actions.

[THE BOOGER]

I have had 2 people threaten to sue unfortunatly for them both incidents were on video with audio so their threat to kill me was recorded and I only hit them once, the police offered me the choice of charging them:D

[akelly]

Why do I answer these?! I'm sure to get scorned........... :)

Yes!!!!

The lad was smacked probably 5-10 times over his childhood. Mostly negotiation was used and smacks if it didn't.

Age 16 he started going off the rails.
Groundings, removal of privileges etc was done but he got worse.

Was 'using' girls and getting into lots of trouble. Would mouth off and talk back.
Even raised a fist at his Mum (not a wise choice).

After over 2 years of problems he was running the gauntlet of being kicked out.

I sat him down and explained actions and consequences. I may as well have spoken to the stove...

He mouthed back and was firmly told he was now leaving.

His response - muscle up and swing...

Result: His (now 18yr old) jaw and nose healed in 4-6 weeks and he is now a much more placid and pleasant individual.....

And gets in no trouble...

Some adults are like IBM computers - occasionally the voice interface fails and one has to punch the info in!

So Tombie, can you see from your own story that 'smacking' wasn't effective?

If you read my previous post on the differences between reinforcement and punishment you will note that if the punishment does not reduce the occurence of the problem behaviour, it is not a punishment. It's as simple as that.

For the person in your example, the 'smacking' was not a punishment. It may have even been reinforcing in some way (not unusual) - of course that is purely a general remark as I know nothing about the details. What was punishing was the pain of 4-6 weeks of his face healing - but perhaps a different strategy from the outset may have prevented that from being deployed.

I'll leave alone the potential long term effects of such a traumatic experience!

Thanks for illuminating my point...

Cheers,

Adam

[akelly]

OK I'll weigh in here. When a child is young, reasoning does not work well. Once you have repeatedly warned them of consequences to which their reply is wilful misbehaviour, then a slap is appropriate. It's the shock value, hey they really mean it. Once the child is old/reasonable enough it is completely useless to smack them, I agree. But against say a 3 year old, it is the weapon of last resort and does them no harm. You would only have to do it a few times for them to get the message. I don't know when was the last time I smacked our now 28 year old, but he certainly hasn't become a violent offender from a few well timed smacks.

However if you lose your cool and wallop the living daylights out of a child, all bets are off. You need help.

Can you reason with a dog? A horse? A parrot?

No, but their behaviour can be shaped and modified to do almost any task imaginable (even drive a car!). To suggest that you should try and reason with a toddler is insane, and not what I'm suggesting at all.

You may find that a 'smack' is effective - great! But imagine if there was a solution that didn't leave the enduring lesson: 'when I want to control someone else, I can use my physical strength to hit them into submission'...

Cheers,

Adam

[akelly]

Just to answer you yes in my line of work I get to "smack" a few adults and it usally changes their behaviour somtimes for the worst but then i get some help from my other "workers":angel:
It is a last resort after trying to get them to behave in a manner acceptable to other patrons but some people only understand the I can hit harder than you equation

I wonder how they got that way? What might have lead them to the idea that using violence is the only way to control others?

I've also had a job (most of my adult life) where physical violence was used to control others - at the extreme end of the spectrum. What I learned from that is that it changed no one and achieved nothing. The people we tried to change with violence became more violent.

I'm not suggesting a mung-bean, gregorian chanting drum circle approach to every problem in life. Sometimes you have to fight or be destroyed - I understand that, very well. What I am suggesting is the message we send kids by 'smacking' them is that we control the behaviour of others by using our physical strength to make them comply with our requirements. That is not a good message for kids.

I'll sign off on this as I've said my piece, outlined my points and tried my best to explain the science and reasoning behind my position. You can either reflect on it, or not.

Cheers,

Adam

[bee utey]

Can you reason with a dog? A horse? A parrot?

No, but their behaviour can be shaped and modified to do almost any task imaginable (even drive a car!). To suggest that you should try and reason with a toddler is insane, and not what I'm suggesting at all.

You may find that a 'smack' is effective - great! But imagine if there was a solution that didn't leave the enduring lesson: 'when I want to control someone else, I can use my physical strength to hit them into submission'...

Cheers,

Adam

Are you saying there is never an excuse for physical punishment, even when inaction may endanger a life? Does one smack scar the receiver for life and turn them into a psycopathic monster? How is a smack intrinsically more harmful than watching movies on TV? How much of your life do you have to raise the perfect child?

My last word: If you cannot control your anger you should never be with kids. They could drive you over the edge. If you are in control, you use whatever treatment gets the best result in the specific incident..

[Landy Smurf]

there is this guy( he is quite the grubby person) that comes into work a lot, he has 2 autistic kids(1 boy,1 girl) the boy he can leave in the car but the girl he has to bring into the shop and he is forever hitting her and smacking her as she tries to grab things, I really do not know what to think about it.

[Landy Smurf]

I have been reading this thread with a lot of interest and am probably sitting on the fence now but just with my 2 legs on the no smacking side.
I have been thinking about the comments about smacking small kids(probably up to 4yrs of age). I was thinking back to when i got smacked and it was not the physical side that really was the problem it was more the action, that scared the bejebus's out of me, but it has not scared either physically or mentally as i can still cook using a wooden spoon.
I also think in regards to the comment about , you can smack little kids as they are sometimes impossible to reason with, if that was an acceptable reason then I am sure there are a lot of people at various ages i could give a smack to.
But then again we are just talking about parenting I hope, but then what about when your toddlers are at a daycare should the daycare workers be allowed to smack the kids?
I did watch super nanny once upon a time and 1 of the things I really liked that she made the parents do was, when the parents punished their kids they were made to explain why they were being punished as this helps them to think and understand what they did( well hopefully)

[Disco44]

[QUOTE=Sleepy;1814506]It's funny how some always equate discipline with violence.:angel:



Licensed! :Rolling:Ha! Imagine the test.!

The fact is these so-called teachers were sadistic mongrels who could only stand tall in their own pretend little world of intimidation, bullying and violence....but perhaps my experience was different to some!:angel:

Just goes to show you how disproportionate violence directed against a child (under 10) can leave permanent yet invisible scars......even 40 years later.

Didn't you pull your hand away just before first one landed and had the satisfaction of seeing the cane or the strap(Christian Bros used the strap) get the perpetrator on his leg? You might have then received double but they got the first one. One brother got such a good one ,I think it made him tone down a bit in the future just in case he received another.

[PeterM]

Are you suggesting that when you are unable to reason with a child you should resort to violence?

You may be interested to know that animals can be taught very sophisticated behaviour (like finding explosives for example) solely through reinforcement. The animals don't need to be struck in this process. Humans have the advantage of language (most of us), so we can take advantage of something called 'rule governed behaviour' - basically we can tell someone what we want them to do, rather than waiting for them to do a close approximation of the target behaviour (like we have to do with animals).

Please point out my straw man arguments, because I'm always keen to learn from my mistakes.

Cheers,

Adam

There is an example of a straw man in your first line. You ignore my points about all people being different and that there is no one size fits all approach. A child does not have the intellectual ability to reason as you would with a teen or another adult, if the other methods of discipline do not achieve the desired endstate then physical discipline is another option at your disposal.

Your example of rule governed behaviour has one very significant caveat, respect. If the ruled have none for the ruler then there is no discipline and no desire to conform to the rules. One only has to look at any typical high school for numerous examples of this.

As to your question regarding whether I would do the same to an adult? Yes I would and have. The law permits any one of us to physically discipline our children and with respect to adults, it is permitted to enforce or prevent breaches of the law and to address behaviour that places others at risk.

[akelly]

There is an example of a straw man in your first line. You ignore my points about all people being different and that there is no one size fits all approach. A child does not have the intellectual ability to reason as you would with a teen or another adult, if the other methods of discipline do not achieve the desired endstate then physical discipline is another option at your disposal.

Your example of rule governed behaviour has one very significant caveat, respect. If the ruled have none for the ruler then there is no discipline and no desire to conform to the rules. One only has to look at any typical high school for numerous examples of this.

As to your question regarding whether I would do the same to an adult? Yes I would and have. The law permits any one of us to physically discipline our children and with respect to adults, it is permitted to enforce or prevent breaches of the law and to address behaviour that places others at risk.

Peter, I'm just going to reply to this one post and then I'm done on the subject:

What you think is a straw man is not. See my other posts on using reason in this context (can you reason with a dog?).

You don't understand what rule governed behaviour is, I probably didn't explain it in enough detail but there is plenty of information to assist available if you look for it. If you read up on the topic you will see why your assumption is incorrect.

Lastly, I'm not talking about what's legal. I'm talking about what is rational behaviour.

Cheers,

Adam

[THE BOOGER]

Hi Adam not trying to draw you in but too most parents and teachers corporal punishment is or should be a last resort but if you take it away as an option what do you do when cajoling, bribes, stars and stamps just dont get the required change in behaviour? Its like telling bank robbers that the police will no longer chase them if they go over the speed limit some will deliberatly go over to get what they want, there is a small percentage of people both adults and children who will always rebel against any authority. Of the 5 punishments listed the only 1 I would have concerns about is the padded isolation room and as for the police option if a 10 year old brings a knife to school and threatens the teacher or other students then yep hand them over to police they are already to far gone for the school system to deal with:(

PS: I started out in the same bussiness as you only a couple of years before you.:)

[Sleepy]

Didn't you pull your hand away just before first one landed and had the satisfaction of seeing the cane or the strap(Christian Bros used the strap) get the perpetrator on his leg? You might have then received double but they got the first one. One brother got such a good one ,I think it made him tone down a bit in the future just in case he received another.
Nah not a catholic School. Just a state primary east of Melbourne in the 70's. In fact this is the first time I have ever mentioned it. Feels good. :)

[akelly]

Hi Adam not trying to draw you in but too most parents and teachers corporal punishment is or should be a last resort but if you take it away as an option what do you do when cajoling, bribes, stars and stamps just dont get the required change in behaviour? Its like telling bank robbers that the police will no longer chase them if they go over the speed limit some will deliberatly go over to get what they want, there is a small percentage of people both adults and children who will always rebel against any authority. Of the 5 punishments listed the only 1 I would have concerns about is the padded isolation room and as for the police option if a 10 year old brings a knife to school and threatens the teacher or other students then yep hand them over to police they are already to far gone for the school system to deal with:(

PS: I started out in the same bussiness as you only a couple of years before you.:)

Because you asked such a good question up front I'll allow myself to be drawn in... ;)

If reinforcement doesn't work (which actually means you haven't found the right reinforcer yet or you are doing something else wrong) and the behaviour is unacceptable you can use punishment, of course. Punishment is either giving an aversive stimulus or taking away a pleasurable one. A standard punishment is time-out. It works pretty well most of the time if you use it properly - but most people don't understand how to use it and so it fails.

Here's an example for a kid around 6: kid is hitting other kids. That's bad and we need to stop it ASAP. Reinforcement is not appropriate just yet so we are going to use punishment to extinguish the bad behaviour (hitting others). We immediately remove the kid to a totally non-stimulating environment (usually somewhere like an empty room) and set up rule governed behaviour by saying something like: 'you hit Johnny and that is not allowed. You are in time-out for X minutes, sit here quitely and don't move. If you move from the chair or make a noise the time starts again' The kid stays in time out for X minutes, but if they break the rules (move, speak, whatever) the time restarts.

In case you are wondering how that is punishment; being ignored while others are playing or whatnot is extremely aversive to young kids. Don't underestimate how punishing time-out can be to young ones if it is done properly. You have to be careful not to over do it.

When the kid has behaved properly in the time-out area for X minutes they can come out. Usually then get the kid to explain why they were in time out and what the correct behaviour is (ask for the toy, play nicely, don't hit others, whatever). Then, and this is really important, the very instant that the kid displays anything like the correct behaviour we reinforce that to the max (with praise, a sticker or whatever you are using).

Other punishments can be things like removing access to things like toys, TV time or whatever. There are lots of ways to apply punishment, but we usually only want to use it for behaviour that must be stopped ASAP - so things where the kid could get hurt, or hurt someone else are usually the go. Remember that the definition of a punishment is that it reduces a behaviour. Reinforcement increases a behaviour - that's why we want to reinforce them as soon as they start showing signs of doing the right thing.

There are whole books and lifetimes spent researching this stuff, so what I've posted is a drop in the ocean of the theory and application. As I'm just riffing this off the top of my head I may have missed something. My intent is not to provide the textbook solution, but to point out that we can use punishment that is not violent or physical - and has the added bonus of giving a much better model to kids on how to behave.

Also, I'm not an author or professor, so my explanation is not perfect. There are lots of good resources for this stuff both online and in text. If you are interested I can post some good ones.

Imagine the model you would set up by hitting a kid as punishment for hitting someone! Can you see that it makes no friggin' sense to do that?

Cheers,

Adam

[THE BOOGER]

I agree smacking a kid to stop them smacking other kids is probably not the best way your non stimulating room sounds alot like option 3 from the OP padded isolation rooms:D I once cought 2 kids 12 and 10 inside a volvo dealership in liverpool they came up with they were just looking found an open window mum was out (it was 1am) and they were just looking around for somethinf to do etc, I was just about to give them a walk when the local police showed both had convictions for car theft and joy riding:eek: I dont let anybody walk any more i worry that by the time these kids get to school at 5 or 6 they may already be to far into bad habits for 6 hours of school 5 days aweek to sort out no matter what punishment is used. This sort of behaviour has to be curbed way before it gets to school age:(

[akelly]

I agree smacking a kid to stop them smacking other kids is probably not the best way your non stimulating room sounds alot like option 3 from the OP padded isolation rooms:D I once cought 2 kids 12 and 10 inside a volvo dealership in liverpool they came up with they were just looking found an open window mum was out (it was 1am) and they were just looking around for somethinf to do etc, I was just about to give them a walk when the local police showed both had convictions for car theft and joy riding:eek: I dont let anybody walk any more i worry that by the time these kids get to school at 5 or 6 they may already be to far into bad habits for 6 hours of school 5 days aweek to sort out no matter what punishment is used. This sort of behaviour has to be curbed way before it gets to school age:(

I agree there are some off-the-rails kids out there man. For sure.

For kids right off the rails there are options - none of them need physical violence, hitting, smacking or electric shock. And they work. I wish I could link a great video, but it's not online anywhere for free. It's called: Harry - behavioral treatment of self abuse. It is the most incredible documentary of the use of the techniques I'm talking about, deployed by a genius in the field. The client is a severly handicapped young man (early 20s) called Harry who smashes himself in the face (to the point he is very disfigured) to get his own way. Just by using behavioural techniques, a lot of patience and a **** load of skill, Dr Richard Fox gets Harry to change his behaviour and he ends up a really well adjusted young man (considering his conditon).

Think Dr Harry needed to 'reason' with Harry? Nope. Think he needed to hit him, or give him shocks? Nope. Did he need to drug him? Nope. He used reinforcement and punishment - simple things like giving Harry praise and a hug. It took months, but it worked.

Why don't these techniques get used, if they're so good? Because it is expensive to have one-on-one help for a kid, which is what the really bad ones need. The really bads ones get really bad because their parents don't have the right skills (or don't care) - or they have a condition of some kind. Those parents don't usually have the money to get the right sort of help.

It's not good.

Cheers,

Adam

[DiscoMick]

As a parent I quickly realised that smacking my kids achieved absolutely nothing and merely taught them that hitting others was OK. So I got smarter.
To put it another way, I'm the adult in this situation and you're the child, so I can always outsmart you without behaving like you.
As others have said, the most effective behaviour controls are withdrawl of privileges and exclusion until the behaviour improves. In extreme cases, exclusion is called prison.

[Tombie]

The lad I mentioned reacted quite the opposite.

We removed privileges, gutted his room, grounded, restrictions, made him write what he did and what he would do.
Asked, told, yelled etc.

His nonchalant attitude meant he got ****ty and then just CBF anymore and just went with it.

Once the punishment had ran its allotted time he'd just go back to doing the exact same as before.

However, one decent tan on the backside and for multiple months everything went smooth.

Ditto simple requests to be quiet or keep it down. You could ask 20 times without success - 1 smack and all good.

My other lad, total opposite. Ask and you get exactly what you ask for. Smack him back then and he'd just get angry.

[Eevo]

As others have said, the most effective behaviour controls are withdrawl of privileges and exclusion until the behaviour improves


no, that would would only work on a kid who can realise the loss

or
wont work where the kid sees the reward as greater than the punishment


when i was a kid (and i was a **** of a kid), there was nothing more effective at improving my behaviour than a smack. time-outs and loss of privileges didnt work in all situations. and wasnt a deterrent.

[akelly]

The lad I mentioned reacted quite the opposite.

We removed privileges, gutted his room, grounded, restrictions, made him write what he did and what he would do.
Asked, told, yelled etc.

His nonchalant attitude meant he got ****ty and then just CBF anymore and just went with it.

Once the punishment had ran its allotted time he'd just go back to doing the exact same as before.

However, one decent tan on the backside and for multiple months everything went smooth.

Ditto simple requests to be quiet or keep it down. You could ask 20 times without success - 1 smack and all good.

My other lad, total opposite. Ask and you get exactly what you ask for. Smack him back then and he'd just get angry.

That perfectly illustrates my point re: punishment. If it doesn't reduce the target behaviour, it ain't a punishment.

Cheers,

Adam

[akelly]

no, that would would only work on a kid who can realise the loss

or
wont work where the kid sees the reward as greater than the punishment


when i was a kid (and i was a **** of a kid), there was nothing more effective at improving my behaviour than a smack. time-outs and loss of privileges didnt work in all situations. and wasnt a deterrent.

You're not remembering much about your psych studies mate!

[Eevo]

You're not remembering much about your psych studies mate!

what part do you disagree with?