Rotten Apple GPS Maps

[Chucaro]

Victoria Police say that in the past two months they have rescued six people who were lost in the Murray Sunset National Park while trying to get to Mildura - more than 70 kilometres away.
(http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-10/apple-maps-strands-motorists-looking-for-mildura/4418400)
Inspector Simon Clemence says he is concerned people using the Apple Maps app could find themselves in trouble.
"If it was a 45-degree day, someone could actually die," he said.

As long as a doctor or an emergency service are using it will be ok :(

[incisor]

and navman maps send you stupid places too..

garmin are usually a bit better

they all do it in one spot or another

some just get more press...

:angel:

[Tombie]

Nothing like tall poppy syndrome.

Something the OP loves ;)

[JohnF]

Today's Courier Mail Newspaper [Couriermail.com] has an article on page 11 that is headlined "Rotten Apple Maps sending drivers nuts."

This article does tell us that Apple's New Mapping System on iPhones is dangeriously inaccurate. For example the iPhone,
"mapping system lists Mildura in the middle of the Murry Sunset park in Northwestern Victoria about 70Km away from the town."

4WD drivers relying on these are getting badly lost where they could die from lack of water, etc,. stuck in soft sand because they were sent of track.

Police "Inspector Simon Clemence said....

"One guy got far enough in to lose phone coverage and he was stuck there. He had to walk out and it took him 24 hours to get to a point where he had phone coverage and we resqued him.

Police have confirmed five vechiles have become stranded in the park, with many more people pressumed to have become lost before finding their own way out...."

"Police agree the error could be a recipe for disaster as teperatures sour over the summer

"This is 4WD terrain with big, deep sand bogs and sand drifts and these people are driving in there with their family truckster and getting stuck," Insp Clemence said.

"That's pretty nasty country out there. There's not much shade and a lot of hot sand and no water at all....

" "My advice is you can't put your faith in technology," Insp Clemence said."

Since I do not have a i-phone or a GPS this does not effect me, but I put this on this forum in-order to save you guys from getting way too lost [ I do wish I had a good GPS though].

So guys do not rely on technology, when you go bush, be careful and carry lots of water, etc.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I frequently find the turn-by-turn GPS units take you the long way*, but now one that doesn't even know where its going.

*My Sensis powered GPS will tell me to turn left on the corner of our farm, then takes you on a 7Km scenic tour back to the same corner from the other direction when we get to turn left into our road and then into the driveway of the farm. I usually just turn right at the original corner and save the 7K, but did follow the GPS one time to see which way it wanted to take me. Now I try to use a MAP, it's often quicker.

[Sleepy]

I have used it around Melbourne with no dramas.....yet.:angel:

I am always interested to know more about so-called 4wders getting lost.

Like a bloke I know took his Kluger in the bush to "have some fun". Unprepared, no equipment, no recovery gear, (no idea?) followed GPS and got lost. Luckily he stumbled onto some people who were prepared and gave him some guidance out of the forest. I'm not sure it was the limitations of his GPS that let him down:angel:

I always have a map when traveling.....and a compass. (Just in case!)

[OffTrack]

It's a bit weird. If you search for Mildura, Maps gives you the correct location, but as has been said the name is in on the edge of a block in Murray Sunset.

I've driven that area in a stock Prado (rental before I got the D2) with street tyres and it's a bit hairy for a first timer. BUT to get there you have to turn off the main highway and drive on dirt roads for 60-70km before you get to the sandy stuff.

I tried dropping a pin on the location in Murray Sunset and then shared the dropped pin, and opened up on google maps. Completely different locations!!

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=54344&stc=1&d=1355221627


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=54343&stc=1&d=1355221493

Something is definitely up.

cheers
Paul

[Bushie]

You'll get a similar result if you go looking for Ceduna in Apple mapping :eek:


Martyn

[OffTrack]

They'll get to see some great birds in that spot. It's a favorite location with Victorian birdo's for finding Mallee specialists like the Red Lored Whistler.

[Ferret]

This is said to be the cause of the problem
(http://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/12/10/039232/australian-police-warn-that-apple-maps-could-get-someone-killed)


The root cause of this, and many of the other errors in city location observed throughout Australia, is actually quite simple and I don't know why Apple haven't fixed it yet. It was a bit of a facepalm moment when I realised what was actually going on with the Australian maps on iOS6.

Basically there are two problems:

1. Apple Maps is marking the centre of local government areas (analogous to a county, for American readers) as a point location, rather than a name for a large area of land (i.e. it's treating them as locations you can navigate to); and

2. In the case that a search query matches both a local government area name, AND a town name ... it preferences the local government area (which as mentioned, is being mapped as an exact point roughly in the middle of the area, generally in the middle of nowhere)

For example, follow the Hume Highway south from Sydney a little way and you will see a point marked as Wingecaribee, east of the highway, roughly in the vicinity of where the town of Moss Vale is (though, as noted, the GUI chooses to display Wingecaribee prominently, but doesn't mark Moss Vale or any other towns at all, unless you zoom in really close). The point marked as Wingecaribee is just a random spot in rugged forested terrain. Nothing's actually there. This is simply the centre of the Wingecaribee Shire. But there is no actual town called Wingecaribee so apart from looking weird, this doesn't hurt anything.

BUT ... keep following the highway south and you will soon come to the next shire, Goulburn Shire. Again, the centre of this local government area is marked as a point, called "Goulburn" and again, it's not anywhere near anything. It's in the middle of some random farmer's field somewhere. BUT THIS TIME, we have a problem, because within Goulburn Shire, there is actually also a town called Goulburn. But if you search for 'Goulburn', you are directed to the centre of the Goulburn Shire, NOT the town. This is completely retarded, as noone ever searches for things by local government area name in Australia (many people don't even know the name of their LGA ... they aren't as prominently known as counties in the US), and even if they did, wouldn't want to be directed to some arbitrary point near the middle of it with no regard for whether there's anything there.

This is what has happened in TFA too. There is a Mildura local government area. Within that, there is also a city called Mildura. But the city isn't marked; only the centre of the LGA. Which as stated, is in the middle of bloody nowhere.

Basically whoever processed the Australian mapping data has interpreted LGA (shire, county etc.) names as locality (town, city) names. And has given them prominence in both display and search results over actual localities. Should be simple to fix, surely. The data is there - it's just being used incorrectly.

[malleefowl]

This situation was brought to the attention of the media by the local police.Apparently at least 4 people required assistance to get back on the black top.Could be potentially life threatening out there in summer temps of 46 + Without adequate water.
Still don't understand why some folk just don't read the more than adequate sinage

[akelly]

Could just use a map & compass. Or follow the fracking signs (which the police suggested on the radio)...

[phl]

And some people rely blindly on their GPS they can't read prominent road signs pointing to Mildura...

Although road signs can also be misleading. There is one in north of Cairns that says "Broome"; had a couple of Brit tourist that wanted to do a quick day trip there from Cairns, until I pointed out that although the sign is correct, the distance precludes a day trip...

[Chucaro]

Could just use a map & compass. Or follow the fracking signs (which the police suggested on the radio)...

That will be commonsense :D
I cannot understand why they need a GPS to drive from Adelaide to Mildura :confused:
I have done that trip in a motorbike and there is no way that you can make a mistake. Just read the signs, as you have said!

[Eevo]

google maps > apple maps

[incisor]

in a motorbike

really....

you stow away in the fuel tank?

:D:D:D:D:angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Before we had GPS, people did follow the road signs, sometimes got lost, but usually found the place. Now we have GPS people trust it to their own demise and ignore the road signs because the newer technology must be correct.

[OffTrack]

Still don't understand why some folk just don't read the more than adequate sinage

It's baffling. Why anyone would turn down Last Hope Track, drive out across Raak Plains past abandoned the gypsum works, before they even hit the sandy stuff is beyond me. It's a few years since I've driven that track but I seem to recall there are even a couple of farm gates you have to open and close at one point. Surely that would have to trigger a "Can't be right" alarm in the brain??

[Blknight.aus]

Sadly its not the case.....

The detail of education is no longer high enough to support things like navigation, learning the trade, applying the skillset through knowledge rather than blindly following process.

why?

because its easy... and easy is often used synonymously with better and if its better then it must be the best way of doing things.

Right up till something goes wrong... when a checkout chick/ till dude cant do the simple math that lets be buy 30 choccky bars @75c each and then work out my change from a 50 because the till is down, he doesnt have a calculator and hes not allowed to have his mobile at the register calls his super over and she has to go and get a calculator out to work out that my sum of $22.50 payment with $27.50 change is correct I'm not entirely sure they'd be capable of reading a map, converting the cms-KMS and then working out which way they were facing other than into their own navels.

[Chucaro]

really....

you stow away in the fuel tank?

:D:D:D:D:angel:

:bat: :D:D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

It's baffling. Why anyone would turn down Last Hope Track, drive out across Raak Plains past abandoned the gypsum works, before they even hit the sandy stuff is beyond me. It's a few years since I've driven that track but I seem to recall there are even a couple of farm gates you have to open and close at one point. Surely that would have to trigger a "Can't be right" alarm in the brain??So what you're saying is that the 6 people who had to be rescued were the ones not fitted with the "Can't be right sensor" in their brains and there were dozens or maybe even hundreds of others who turned back before requiring rescue but after being misdirected by rotten apple maps.

[Scallops]

...I've also had no issues using Apple Maps. In fact, I really prefer it to my other paid app (Metro View) because it gets town directions very right and gives good warning. There again, I haven't been to Mildura recently, but even if I did, I wouldn't be using my phone's nav to get there....:D

[OffTrack]

So what you're saying is that the 6 people who had to be rescued were the ones not fitted with the "Can't be right sensor" in their brains and there were dozens or maybe even hundreds of others who turned back before requiring rescue but after being misdirected by rotten apple maps.

The maps themselves aren't bad at all, and as Scallops says they work extremely well in most cases. I prefer the routing to Google Maps, and even to iGo 8 and Primo.

It definitely has been a problem for Apple. However, I've just had a look and the Mildura issue has been fixed. The name in the park is gone and a search drops the pin in the CBD of Mildura.

Seriously anyone with even a modicum of nouse would have been wondering what the hell was up as soon as they turned left off the Calder Hwy.

cheers
Paul

[Scallops]

...I'm glad Mildura has returned to it's rightful location. :D Offtrack makes a good point, and it's one worth noting - Apple Maps applies corrections automatically ....the user does not need to update the app as one does with other nav software. Maybe by iPhone 14S it'll be all good...although the coastline of many countries will need to be remapped given we've lost 80% of the volume of arctic summer ice since 1980.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I've had mildrua in a damp closet, so I solved it by airing them frequently, I didn't realise it could have been caused by a rotten apple! :D

[miky]

Just tried with iPad and iPhone and Mildura gets town centre on both.
Presumably fixed?
What about other locations mentioned above?

[OffTrack]

Just tried with iPad and iPhone and Mildura gets town centre on both.
Presumably fixed?
What about other locations mentioned above?

Goulburn, NSW still gives a location in the middle of a paddock. Mansfield, Vic is the same - just off the Mansfield - Woods Point Rd well south of the town. The stupid thing is the route takes you directly down the main street of Mansfield but ends 18km further on.

They have obviously gone for the quick fix on the location that is making headlines. I'm an Apple fan, but I'll readily admit it is not a good look.

cheers
Paul

[dennisS1]

No we really have moved into the middle of the sunset country, this is to stop people that are so brain dead that they would believe their Iwatever over road signs and leave a sealed highway to search in the sand.
Dennis

[Tombie]

They have obviously gone for the quick fix on the location that is making headlines. I'm an Apple fan, but I'll readily admit it is not a good look.

cheers
Paul

Not really

Even my Latest maps Garmin gets it crazy wrong some times....

[mike_ie]

Was actually talking about this very topic with a few AULRO members around the campfire a month or so back, and I think that pretty much everyone was in agreement that it's not the technology at fault, but the people using it.

If apple maps or google maps or any of the other mapping software was actually used as a MAP, then these problems wouldn't exist. Before the advent of GPS, people sat down in front of a paper map, decided where they wanted to go, perhaps sussed out a couple of campsites or rendez-vouz points on paper, made note of a few waypoints along the way and actually looked out the window at signposts along the way to make sure they were heading in the right direction.

People don't actually want maps anymore. What they actually want is a screen in the car with a big button on the touchscreen that says [TAKE ME THERE!!!], and blindly follow it until an automated voice spits out "You have reached your destination." It's the same reason that people are driving clean across roundabouts in Europe, or driving through fields on roads that haven't been made yet - if the GPS says go straight, then who am I to argue.

Coupled with that is the fact that nowadays a lot of "4WD enthusiasts" are labelled that, simply because they've trumped up the cash for the latest and greatest 4WD. Not that long ago, when people were more careful about how they spent, or didn't have the luxury of disposable income, those that owned a 4WD did so because they either needed it for work or to get around, or because going out bush was their hobby, their passion, and they were willing to make the investment to follow their hobby. Either way, 4WD owners were educated about their vehicles, and about at least the rudiments of bushcraft. Nowadays, people are buying 4WD's because it'll look nice with the boat and the jetski's in the front garden, not necessarily because they actually know how to drive a 4WD.

It's actually worth a wander round the yard at Triumph Rover Spares to see this in action. Up the front of the yard there are almost as many rolled Defenders less than 5 years old, as there are scrapped Defenders and County's dating back 30 years down the back of the yard. When I was chatting with the boys in the yard, they say that it's because people are buying them and don't know how to drive them.

"4WD drivers relying on these are getting badly lost where they could die from lack of water, etc,. stuck in soft sand because they were sent of track."

That driver has more issues than his GPS not working. He's out there on his own, he's out there without recovery gear, or the knowledge how to use it, he's possibly out there without enough water to last the day. And he apparently doesn't know how to read a map. What would you think of that guy if the same story came out before the days of GPS??

Sure, anyone can be unlucky. But a lot of this seems to be Darwinian selection in action....

[Sleepy]

Well I agree with your sentiment mike_ie, but I, for one, love maps.

There is nothing like getting a bunch of 1:100,000 maps and planning out your journey. Marking it with pencil and noting, on route, how the road has diverged from that on the chart. (I have noted numerous changes in Vic High Country which can amount to 200m off track error - often you go for a walk and you can find the long since overgrown original track).

But I'm still "old school", I love:


getting out the compasss and laying down on the bonnet with your map - only to remember the vehicle has a nasty effect on compasses.
Driving on the compass
Looking at where the sun is, orienting myself as you drive by the shadows,
watching where the sun sets and comparing that to west and the time of year.
learning how to measure your distance travelled by reference to eastings.

To me it's all about the experience and my way of "having fun" in the bush.


GPS are good and so is driving a Disco4, but I like to have the navigating in my head and the gearstick in my hand!

[Chucaro]

Google Maps returns to iPhone after Apple fiasco (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-13/google-maps-returns-to-iphone-after-apple-fiasco/4427128)

Google has released a new Maps app for iPhone users to replace a glitch-ridden Apple program panned for omitting key landmarks and cities and failing correctly to identify locations.

[Gillie]

But even their maps are up the putt. Have a look at the Yarra river in Melbourne under the Westgate bridge. The Yarra doesn't flow to the bay anymore.

[OffTrack]

But even their maps are up the putt. Have a look at the Yarra river in Melbourne under the Westgate bridge. The Yarra doesn't flow to the bay anymore.

54405

So what's the problem? Or are you talking about the 3d views?

[jaffa]

Had a read of the original article and had to laugh at the couple travelling from Adelaide to Mildura. Why would anyone even need to use a gps system of any kind to make this kind of trip. Keep your eyes on the road and follow the signs.

[Gillie]

54405

So what's the problem? Or are you talking about the 3d views?

This is the problem..... If you are a container ship looking to unload and using apple maps!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/702.jpg

[OffTrack]

This is the problem..... If you are a container ship looking to unload and using apple maps!

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/702.jpg

It looks like it is a glitch in the conversion of satellite imagery. The are a couple of lines in the satellite images at some resolution so I'd guess it's detecting this as an enclosed area. For all practical purposes it's not going to be a problem.

The idea that a pilot of a container ship is going to be using a land navigation app is the most patently absurd thing I've heard in a very long time. A captain that did so would be a likely nomination for the Costa Concordia medal for outstanding contribution to maritime navigation! :D

[Rosscoe68]

So what you're saying is that the 6 people who had to be rescued were the ones not fitted with the "Can't be right sensor" in their brains and there were dozens or maybe even hundreds of others who turned back before requiring rescue but after being misdirected by rotten apple maps.

Darwins' theory would ensure these idiots did not procreate.

but that's not socially acceptable, we need to support these idiots and give them a baby bonus to reproduce.
oh well.....

[sheerluck]

Well I agree with your sentiment mike_ie, but I, for one, love maps.

There is nothing like getting a bunch of 1:100,000 maps and planning out your journey. Marking it with pencil and noting, on route, how the road has diverged from that on the chart. (I have noted numerous changes in Vic High Country which can amount to 200m off track error - often you go for a walk and you can find the long since overgrown original track).

But I'm still "old school", I love:


getting out the compasss and laying down on the bonnet with your map - only to remember the vehicle has a nasty effect on compasses.
Driving on the compass
Looking at where the sun is, orienting myself as you drive by the shadows,
watching where the sun sets and comparing that to west and the time of year.
learning how to measure your distance travelled by reference to eastings.

To me it's all about the experience and my way of "having fun" in the bush.


GPS are good and so is driving a Disco4, but I like to have the navigating in my head and the gearstick in my hand!

I was out giving my daughter a driving lesson last weekend, and attempting to teach her many of the things you list, like staring at a map before leaving to roughly fix the relative positions of places in her mind, knowing the points of the compass and how to use the sun to roughly navigate.

Chances are she'll politely listen to old dad ramble on for a while before whipping out her smartphone, but you've got to at least make the effort!

I have a GPS which I find semi useful, but it is wrong almost as often as it is right, with new roads, new estates, naming suburbs differently to what the locals do, etc etc.

[turps]

I think the Darwinism App that is disguised as Apple maps is fantastic. Because seriously, some of these people getting lost are a waste.
I do realize that some of these places are rural. But we do have sealed roads in the country.

Also I find apple maps to be really good for satellite images. They are alteast 2-3yrs newer than google.

[Gillie]

25 Funniest Apple Maps Fails | WeKnowMemes (http://weknowmemes.com/2012/09/25-funniest-apple-maps-fails/)

[turps]

Well I did some testing of both google maps app and the apple maps app the other day.
And as far as use ability. The apple maps are much better. Much easier to get directions to some one in your contacts which google don't do. Also google does not remember previous search options.
Once a set of directions is in. In 3d mode. Apple once again do a better job of it. One feature I do like is the roads are marked as if they are underpass's or bridges.
Driving around Melbourne it didn't make much difference as I know my way around. But I think it could be useful.