P38 on gas

[jezza89]

Hi all,

Just wanting to hear from those of you who have gas conversions on your P38s.

How does it run on the gas, how far does it go on a tank, and what is the fuel economy like?

My rangie is starting to burn a deep hole in my wallet for fuel, so am just looking at alternatives so I can hold onto the car!


Cheers,
jeremy

[Keithy P38]

Personally I'm not a gas fan... I would rather a 100+ litre second tank for those very remote trips. Gas is not available everywhere out bush and if you use 14l/100km on petrol you'll use more with dual fuel.

How bad is your fuel consumption? There are things you can do...

My '99 Bosch 4.6 uses around 14 to the 100km around town and about 11 on the highway, 18 is the worst I've seen on a very remote, mostly low range trip. Fully loaded with 255/70 muddies...

[jsp]

Hey there,

I am a fan of LPG on the rangie, I have it on both my P38 and my classic.

LPG is not cheap here at the moment so its not the best savings. As a basic rule of thumb my cars used roughly a third more LPG than petrol to get the same distance, so if LPG is 78c a L as it was today, petrol would have to be less than about $1.05 L to be the better option, as as ptrol this afternoon was $1.45 here, you can work out the savings. But I do about 500-600 k a week and estimate LPG has paid for itself and saved me roughly $6,000 in fuel over the past 6 years and 100,000 kilometers I have done on LPG.

When the P38 was in better nick it got about 300k's from a tank I once got 59 L into of LPG.

My car's seen better days and probably needs a new cam and top end rebuild more than anything but on average was getting about 240-250K's around town out of the tank which on average I put 55 L of LPG into.

I have 95 GEMS, and its a single point venturi setup, and is set to for a squirt of petrol in to start the car but be running on LPG straight away - none of this warm up and cut over stuff.

I ran a little bit of petrol through it, running half a tank or so of petrol probably once a month or about every 8 or 9 tanks of LPG - when the car was my daily drive.

There's plenty on the forum who have thor setups with injection and run fine.

There's a few things to look for depending on what type of engine you have, but in general I lost no noticeable power on LPG and have only had issues due to my own sillyness and lack of maintenance on a few hoses I knew weren't looking good, so can't complain at all about LPG. My Petrol consumption went up a bit after the conversion, but thats because the car was setup to run mainly LPG .

My real beef was I had to fill up twice a week and its a pain, but thats because all I got was a donut tank in the spare wheel well.

get onto P38 Ron or especially beeutey - he's the LPG genius :)

[DT-P38]

get onto P38 Ron or especially beeutey - he's the LPG genius :)

Agree that Ron or beeutey will get you the best info/feedback/direction on the subject.

Bee is THE GAS GURU.

[jezza89]

Mine is a 2001 4.6/THOR engine, with about 155 000km on the clock. I drive about 500-600km a week and average about 14.3L/100km for that kind of commute.

When I took the car up to Kalbarri, it averaged maybe 14.0L/100 sitting on 100km/h on the way up. On the way back I sat on 110km/h and the consumption was about 14.8-14.9L/100.

I talked briefly to my workshop about a year ago about it - Lifestyle 4x4 in Morley - and they have recommended a direct injection setup, which will cost me around $2750 after the rebate (provided it's still going now)

[bee utey]

I have done a few P38's, some with injection, some without. Injection is better if properly set up. The installer needs to be very vigilant about doing the electrical intervention for the petrol injection, then the LPG injectors need to be set up correctly. I've seen enough crap work to know there are risks associated with LPG installs so you need to find a trustworthy fitter.

As for tanks, the cheapest option is an ex-Holden VY-VY wagon donut tank made by APA and have it retested. They hold 60 litres of LPG. Otherwise there are donut tanks of 72 litre capacity available new from Manchester Tank.

In both cases you will need to have a safe and legal mount for the spare tyre, either inside the back or on a swing-away carrier. Carrying the spare loose is not legal. The LPG fitter is required to make sure there is a complying alternate spare tyre mount before signing off on the job.

The federal government rebate is $1000, WA may still have their own $1000 rebate, you need to check your local scheme.

My injection install (on a D2 but essentially the same)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

VT wagon tank:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


Spare tyre mount inside:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[glenhendry]

My LPG runs fine, but has (non-acute) insidious side effects and so I have stopped using my LPG, I am sick of chasing fault codes from O2 sensors "catching out" the system as being too lean.

If you get LPG, you will spend more money in the long run if you get a cheap system, guaranteed. Get the correct direct injection system with "good" O2 sensor emulators AND "good" injector emulators. To avoid fault codes being thrown and forcing the petrol system into open loop mode.

If your LPG system starts killing MAF sensors and throwing your long term fuel trims out for petrol, its all way more trouble than its worth.

[Robsrod 58]

I got gas injection, more torque (70nm) as per dyno, get about 300km/75ltr donut tank tuned for 95 octane. It runs smoother and cleaner but its a shame about the price of gas though. I use it for aux tank on trips were no gas is available.

Mine was installed by G. Coopers in Sydney cost $5400, then $1200 rebate from gov in June this year.

Rob

[BusinessConnected]

glenhendry:
Just get an early Gems without O2 Sensors... problem solved :)

[redandy3575]

I have done a few P38's, some with injection, some without. Injection is better if properly set up. The installer needs to be very vigilant about doing the electrical intervention for the petrol injection, then the LPG injectors need to be set up correctly. I've seen enough crap work to know there are risks associated with LPG installs so you need to find a trustworthy fitter.

As for tanks, the cheapest option is an ex-Holden VY-VY wagon donut tank made by APA and have it retested. They hold 60 litres of LPG. Otherwise there are donut tanks of 72 litre capacity available new from Manchester Tank.

In both cases you will need to have a safe and legal mount for the spare tyre, either inside the back or on a swing-away carrier. Carrying the spare loose is not legal. The LPG fitter is required to make sure there is a complying alternate spare tyre mount before signing off on the job.

The federal government rebate is $1000, WA may still have their own $1000 rebate, you need to check your local scheme.

My injection install (on a D2 but essentially the same)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

VT wagon tank:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


Spare tyre mount inside:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/lpg/18410d1251970749-more-lpg-conversion-pics-p38-diesel-rr-96-tyre.jpg

I agree with bee utey. The fact that many aftermarket installers use dodgy techniques with piggy back electrical tap-ins in fooling the management system into thinking that it runs on Petrol, when in fact the car's running on Gas was enough to turn me away from LPG regardless of the savings. As bee utey points out, if its not installed properly, it can lead to more problems.

I'm personally not a fan of LPG either. But if your going down that path, as I mentioned in numerous other posts on this subject is TO GET AN OIL INJECTION SYSTEM for an extra $100, it will save you the heartache of a premature valve train wear out. Also as many LR mechanics have pointed out to me that either vapour or direct injection is the way to go. Don't even bother with the old mixer type system, as they may be cheap, but have a great reputation in blowing up air filter boxes and creating hotspots in the cylinder head without you noticing.

As I'm sure Bee utey will agree, do it right first off, and you'll have a good LPG vehicle. Muck it up on the cheap, and you'll regret your decision.

One thing I will say is, in my opinion, LPG in a P38 somewhat de-values the vehicle slightly. I for one when looking at buying would look the other way if I came across on that has been converted, or look for a lesser price. That's just me though, as like a vehicle that's original and genuine.

[jezza89]

I got gas injection, more torque (70nm) as per dyno, get about 300km/75ltr donut tank tuned for 95 octane. It runs smoother and cleaner but its a shame about the price of gas though. I use it for aux tank on trips were no gas is available.

Mine was installed by G. Coopers in Sydney cost $5400, then $1200 rebate from gov in June this year.

Rob


How much usable gas can you actually put into the 72L tank?

As 300km per 75L equates to 25L/100km :o

[BusinessConnected]

Usually 0.8 of the Actual Volume... I have an 85L Tank in mine which fills to 68L Usable.....

I generally get between 350km and 400km on mine with that 68L.. however I do a fair bit of highway driving.

I have a Vapour Injection System also (purchased from UK).

[benji]

As a comparison, I get 300km out of 75 lt on a single point system.
Yes, be carefull who puts it on. The dude (in Melbourne) who put it on 10 years ago didn't use emulators at all, just a relay to cut off the common power. Concequently I get 8 injector faults (no big deal really); but also camshaft sensor, airflow meter, and purge canistor solonoid faults, as the common power for the injectors is the same for the above sensors. So when it's on LPG, it's only running on the crankshaft sensor. He also put in a chip at the same time so the ecu can advance the timing whilst on LPG, but with the crankshaft sensor turned off, the ecu won't adjust timing.

Even though LPG is hard to find in remote areas, in 90% of driving it's as common as ULP, and the fuel range out of 170lt of fuel is reassuring.

In my experience an upper head lube system isn't needed on the Rovers, as they've got stalite valve stems and seats. Dad's been running LPG on all of his 5 Rovers from 87 and has only had one valve burn out.

I've been running lpg for a few years now, and I wouldn't have bought this p38 if it was fuel only.

Check with WA rules too regarding the spare tire. I know in Victoria a vehicle does not need a spare tire to be roadworthy.

[bee utey]

Check with WA rules too regarding the spare tire. I know in Victoria a vehicle does not need a spare tire to be roadworthy.

The Australian Standard for LPG installations is quite clear: If you fit an LPG tank in place of a spare tyre, there MUST be a suitable new mount provided. Whether or not a tyre is then fitted to the mount is irrelevant. The underfloor mount I make does not affect the load space with the tyre removed.

Quite simply, if a vehicle fitted with LPG has an accident and a loose tyre injures/kills an occupant, the fitter is liable unless there is a mount supplied. I have seen plenty of people too lazy to remount the spare to the mount, but this becomes their problem, not mine.

[benji]

Even if there is no spare tire?

Mmm, my mistake; I thought I had a copy of the Australian Standards for LPG installation, and there's no mention of a spare tire in there; it must be something else I have.

[bee utey]

Even if there is no spare tire?

Mmm, my mistake; I thought I had a copy of the Australian Standards for LPG installation, and there's no mention of a spare tire in there; it must be something else I have.

It's not quite as clear as I remembered (AS1425, clause 1.6 (e) ) but if you alter or modify a spare tyre location, the mounting and anchorage must be designed to withstand 20 g of force in any direction. Removal counts as a modification in my books but I can't outguess an inspector on local requirements.

[3toes]

Have not used these people so cannot comment on reality of this however twin tank set up seems an interesting way of adding more gas without eating into the luggage space.

v8Dualfuel.com: LPG / Autogas conversions and Kits for the Rover V8 Engine (http://www.v8dualfuel.com/lpg_tanks.html)

Ran an 1998 Range Rover v8 on gas with injection system for 3 years and 80k miles with no problems. Had a donut tank in place of the spare wheel.
Used the combination of gas and petrol to extend range.

Replaced it with a BMW x5 4.4 v8 also on gas which is the most unreliable car have ever owned. That is however another story.

[Robsrod 58]

How much usable gas can you actually put into the 72L tank?

As 300km per 75L equates to 25L/100km :o

Mine takes about 57lt for the 300kms = 17lt/100km depending on season. In winter about 330km per tank. I would have liked a bigger tank but I don't want to loose the jack as well to the roof. Loosing the spare to the roof is a real pain especially as now nobody in Aus does a rear bar and spare wheel carrier any more. I'm getting a quote to have one custom made as I type this ( my poor wallet ).

Rob

[ozscott]

I had single point (a mixer) on my d2 for years (4.0 bosch motronic) and while I loved how smooth LPG was and the very low running costs it would occasionally backfire. I recently had a BRC Sequent Plug and Drive injection system (fully sequential LPG injection) installed by a good installer and it is fantastic. Can't recommend it enough. More low down torque than petrol. Pulls smoothly at 1000 rpm in third gear.


Cheers

[Darth Rover]

I bought a 97 autobiography with a gas mixer system fitted. It runs smoother than on petrol and gets about 18 l / 100km mostly highway driving. Don't like having to carry the spare wheel in the boot so mostly don't carry one at all. I also had to get an aftermarket cruise fitted as the original one didn't work properly. I think the system restricts the airflow into the engine and I am looking at fitting a gas research carbie instead. :)

[bee utey]

I bought a 97 autobiography with a gas mixer system fitted. It runs smoother than on petrol and gets about 18 l / 100km mostly highway driving. Don't like having to carry the spare wheel in the boot so mostly don't carry one at all. I also had to get an aftermarket cruise fitted as the original one didn't work properly. I think the system restricts the airflow into the engine and I am looking at fitting a gas research carbie instead. :)
What is the ID of the mixer fitted? I frequently see mixers of 38-42mm ID fitted by other people to the 4.0/4.6 whereas I fit a 46mm ID mixer that runs well with most converters.

[peter51]

I have an EMER sequential system fitted and besides a few niggling issues, I am really happy with it. - fitted by Carb and Gas in Brisbane. I regularly get 18l/100km on the freeway at steady 100km/hr and 20l/100km with a suburban highway mix.

The car runs very smoothly on LPG and has no perceptible power difference under normal operation.
However when entering the freeway, and using full throttle and sport setting, the gas system cant keep up with fuel demand and changes to petrol at about 3500RPM.
Also there is a rpm drop every now and then on the cutover to gas at idle. This occurs only if I let the car idle after start and remain idling until cutover to LPG.

It does throw the following codes when on LPG -:

P0175 = ADDITIVE ADAPTIVE MIXTURE CORRECTION TRA BANK 2 DRIVE CYCLE B, WHICH HAS OCCURED 99 TIMES (SIGNAL TOO HIGH, THE FAULT IS CURRENTLY PRESENT, , THE FAULT HAS BEEN DETERMINED AS PERSISTENTLY PRESENT).
P1000 = ADDITIVE ADAPTIVE MIXTURE CORRECTION TRA BANK 1 DRIVE CYCLE B, WHICH HAS OCCURED 99 TIMES
(SIGNAL TOO HIGH, THE FAULT IS CURRENTLY NOT PRESENT, THE FAULT HAS BEEN DETERMINED AS PERSISTENTLY PRESENT).

These don't occur when on petrol. There is no roughness at idle and they are only a indication that the O2 sensors are detecting a rich condition at idle. The short term fuel trims adjust rapidly and command lean immediately. The O2 sensors also rapidly respond and then cycle normally low to high rapidly as they do when on petrol. It all works as it should.

For information( BOSCH EMS): TRA - Time Relative Adaptation: additive learning correction coefficient per time unit ; a fuel injection adaptation method used to compensate for engine/ sensor changes at idle, which are short term & small affecting the AFR. (The threshold for (DTC 175/171/174) is; TRA additive >±0.452ms)

If I clear these codes then drive on petrol for several hours these codes do not reappear - so all my sensors are working correctly.

Not big issues - the EMS adapts quickly - but still issues

[wpalmo]

Hi All P38 Gas Converted Drivers,

I own a 2001 HSE 4.6 and am keen to run it on gas. I have a Stage One 3.9 that has been running on gas for about 6 years and I have been very happy with it. Of course it is a carburettor with out any of the electronics found on my HSE.

I would really like to know if any one in Perth has been happy with the conversion of their P38 to gas and could maybe PM me a name of a company that are competent in the conversion of the Rangie. I have owned the P38 for about 7 years now and love the vehicle but the price of petrol is killing some of the fun.

Look forward to some feedback from a few happy West Oz Gassed P38 drivers.

Regards Warrick.

[RobboLFC]

I am looking at removing LPG altogether from my 1997 P38. It keeps backfiring all the time, I have had it serviced recently and the previous owner also had it serviced just prior to me buying the car last year.
The last backfire blew up the new airfilter and the air intake pipe, don't know right now the correct term sorry. this car is my daily driver for work and I love the car but I can't afford problems.
I am looking at buying a P38 HSE for my wife and I would prefer it didn't have LPG or if it did it was dedicated LPG and not dual fuel.
I have been searching all night for a really good Range Rover gas expert in Perth that I could take my car to so I can get this sorted once and for all.

[BusinessConnected]

Robbo:
if it was me mate... I'd ditch the Current "Mixer" Type LPG Setup and upgrade to a Sequential Injection System....

Kit from the UK or Similar for 8 Cylinder Car would be around ~$600 from Ebay... You have the Tank etc. in the back... and Installer would probably charge around $700-1000 to fit the Under bonnet Kit (Perhaps even less)

So for around $1300-1500 you will have the benefits of an Injected LPG Setup (No Backfire, Improved Gas Economy, Better Power) with no dramas at all from the older Mixer Setup.

I've done the same thing to 3 x P38's I've bought 2nd hand which were "stuffed" by Dodgy Mixer LPG and it's been awesome...

(I do the Manifold etc. work myself so it's only costing me the $600 from the UK Each Time)

[bee utey]

I am looking at removing LPG altogether from my 1997 P38. It keeps backfiring all the time, I have had it serviced recently and the previous owner also had it serviced just prior to me buying the car last year.
The last backfire blew up the new airfilter and the air intake pipe, don't know right now the correct term sorry. this car is my daily driver for work and I love the car but I can't afford problems.
I am looking at buying a P38 HSE for my wife and I would prefer it didn't have LPG or if it did it was dedicated LPG and not dual fuel.
I have been searching all night for a really good Range Rover gas expert in Perth that I could take my car to so I can get this sorted once and for all.

The number one most important thing to do with a simple gas system on a P38 is to set the spark plug gaps to 0.6mm/0.024". The best LPG plugs I have found are Bosch part number WR7KI33S which are specialist LPG plugs and will need to be ordered by your parts shop from Bosch. They work extremely well. Under no account do you run bigger gaps on a LPG dual fuel P38 unless you convert to LPG vapour injection. Vapour injection is the ducks guts on the P38. It works better than LPG-only dedicated systems and doubles your fuel range.

If it still backfires on LPG after fitting these plugs you may need new coil packs.

The next big thing on P38's is to use a metal air cleaner assembly off an early D1. The MAF will clip straight in. Use a heavier rubber air hose off something like a VN Commodore or silicone hose from a speed shop.

[cal415]

Robbo:
if it was me mate... I'd ditch the Current "Mixer" Type LPG Setup and upgrade to a Sequential Injection System....

Kit from the UK or Similar for 8 Cylinder Car would be around ~$600 from Ebay... You have the Tank etc. in the back... and Installer would probably charge around $700-1000 to fit the Under bonnet Kit (Perhaps even less)

So for around $1300-1500 you will have the benefits of an Injected LPG Setup (No Backfire, Improved Gas Economy, Better Power) with no dramas at all from the older Mixer Setup.

I've done the same thing to 3 x P38's I've bought 2nd hand which were "stuffed" by Dodgy Mixer LPG and it's been awesome...

(I do the Manifold etc. work myself so it's only costing me the $600 from the UK Each Time)

Digging out an old thread here, but can you tell me where and what system you have been purchasing?

[glenhendry]

I too, am very interested in this. I have completed abondoned by single point system and never ever turn it on. I would like to get a second inlet manifold and a injection kit like you mention. Then I could fit the injectors and drop into a shop for the rest to hook up.

[cal415]

Yes i have access to a few different sets of gas system and tanks, if i keep the p38 gas would be a nice option.

[TheTree]

HI

My 4.6 has Land Renzo Omegas multipoint injection system and it seems pretty good.

I am getting a "Left Bank too Lean" message, not sure if it is a problem or not.

The plugs, leads and coil packs were replaced about 20K ago, so I am about the check what type of plugs are installed.

Looks like the Bosch WR7KI33S is the go.

Steve

[willem]

99 Bosch 4 litre - have had injected LPG for 4+ years. Landi system. Good, reliable, Fuel economy OK, makes the car ownable from a fuel cost perspective. This is a daily driver that is used all the time - 120 000 kms in 4.5 years. Car now has 267 000 kms

[TheTree]

99 Bosch 4 litre - have had injected LPG for 4+ years. Landi system. Good, reliable, Fuel economy OK, makes the car ownable from a fuel cost perspective. This is a daily driver that is used all the time - 120 000 kms in 4.5 years. Car now has 267 000 kms

Willem

This is the same setup I have, what type of consumption do you get with the 4.0 ?

Regards
Steve

[benji]

Just wondering beeutey it is the wr7? As the bosch catalougue recoments the wr8.

Businessconnected, what injection system do you get? Im in the same position as yourself where I'd be able to do the manifold work myself. Currently I dont have o2 sensors and I assume I would need these too?

Regards, Benji.

[bee utey]

Just wondering bee utey it is the wr7? As the bosch catalougue recoments the wr8.

Businessconnected, what injection system do you get? Im in the same position as yourself where I'd be able to do the manifold work myself. Currently I dont have o2 sensors and I assume I would need these too?

Regards, Benji.

I use the WR7 plugs because of excellent results with them. The WR8 plugs are too hot for the kind of hills and towing that happens around here. And the WR7's cope well with lighter duty too. Currently Bosch Australia seem to be out of stock of the WR7's, but you can always use the FR7 variety instead (16mm hex socket) as used in some P38s.

Re injection on pre O2 sensor cars, I've done a couple of vehicles like that. As the engine ECU can't tell exactly how far off the mixtures are I install an O2 sensor purely for reference during tuning. When I do the first follow up tune the mixtures will have wandered enough to affect the running and the O2 sensor can be read to readjust the fuel map. It's not optimum but it works.

[benji]

Thanks so much.

There's 3 wr7 in Bendigo and I can get the others out of Adelaide.

[LoonyTune]

Hi all

For what it's worth, I have a 2001 RR. I bought it in 2008 with 160k on the clock. The first thing I done was to put it on gas. I used LPGas in Thomastown (now changed names and staff) and installed a multipoint injection system with a 70 litre donut tank. No additional fixing point was installed and not sure about requirments. I have had no issues with the system, only the rising costs of gas. The only real performance issue is the quality of the gas. It can be quite noticable depending on the petrol station. I get the same performance when on gas or petrol. I get around 320-380ks per tank and I regularly do 800-1000ks per week. I now have 292k on the clock and it is still going strong. I maintained it every year/20k for the first 2 years, but haven't touched it for the past 2 years (busy/lazy). No fault codes, no other problems. The only thing I have noticed is that you don't get the wild consumption levels (local Vs freeway) that you get with petrtol, so would expect gas/petrol to be not so massivleydifferent (price wise) when freeway driving (I managed Canbera to Melbourne on 1 tank of petrol).
I would put it on gas, however, I have been advised that eventually, I will have to rebuild the valves (not sure why, but the gas does something to them. I'm sure someone more used to gas will explain).

Well, thats my 5 cents worth