new discs and pads.. now super noisy

[chris_mack]

Hi,

I had a mechanic friend recently fit new discs and pads on all corners to my 1997 110. Pretty sure the noise is only from the rear.

The rear brakes are super noisy! Worse than normal brake squeal. Started as a minor noise.. and although intermittent (and dependant on how hard I brake), its generally getting worse.

Things he has done so far -

- Change rear pads a 2nd time for a set I found in the car (id only bought it couple of weeks previously so didnt know i had them when he first replaced all the brakes)

- put anti-squeal stuff that came from local auto spares place, goes onto the back (non friction) of the pads.

Neither has fxed the problem although the anti-squeal made it a bit better but now its just as bad.

Had no noise when i first bought the car and it had old nearly worn pads, and uneven rotors. Iv done probably 1500kms since changing pads so its not a case of them needing to bed in.

any suggestions?

Chris

[redrovertdi]

Check the pads to see if they have a chamfered edge at one end[of the pad], if they are in the wrong way they make a racket,

[weeds]

I found genuine to be the best.....non genuine seems to be noisy

[chris_mack]

Il check which way they are.

Its not just noisy unfortunately, it is super loud / hurts my ears! Like pedestrians and other car users hear it and look around for the POS that would make such a noise.

[CraigE]

what brand pads?

[DEFENDERZOOK]

Have you got any anti squeal shims fitted......?
And are they the right way around......?

The D is supposed to go down....or towards the bottom.......

[460cixy]

Don't use that silastic looking anti squeal **** all it does is glue the pads to. The piston boot/dust seals and pulls them out of the calliper there's some stuff that ibs sells that you cut to size and stick on the back of the pads this seems to simmer them down. Early volvos do exactly he same thing the ibs part number is r5001 and check the shims are the right way around hope this helps

[chris_mack]

going to have another look tomorrow, il let you know how we get on

[goingbush]

its only the rears, I've tried different oem pads, they only thing that works is genuine pads, they come with anti squel shims.

the shims dont work with oem pads either, chamfering, hacksaw cuts & other methods might work but the squel always comes back.

any old pad works in the front, but rears I only use genuine now, and they only have about half the meat of aftermarket too.

[chris_mack]

well i bought and fitted some genuine rear pads.. so far so good!

funny story actually, i was back home in england over christmas and thought i might as well buy the pads there (cheaper i thought). good friend of mine has a indy garage (not specialist or anything though) so i got him to call up the local LR dealer harwoods, and order some pads. that way i got his trade discount, and i paid him cash. well came to 58 pounds, ($87) fine, came home (australia) on 18th january and went to fit them, they'd sold me the wrong pads!

So never mind, i rang melbourne city LR to order the right ones, and it was $82! so cheaper here than in england. I never would have guessed that.

Anyway as i said, so far so good fingers crossed the dreaded squeal wont return a few ks down the road!

Thanks everyone

[460cixy]

Land rover seem to be very keenly priced on brake consumables like pads and rotors for the trade. No idea about retail

[chris_mack]

this squeal is back. if i dont drive my car for a few days then itl be silent for the first 10-20kms then the noise well come back.

So its 3 different sets of pads in the rear.. all have made noise. Done 7000km since the discs were changed and probably 5k km since i fitted these genuine pads. Definitely not bedding in!

It wont make any noise in reverse.. ie if i drive forwards even slowly & brake it squeals like buggery, in reverse its silent.

Yes the pads are fitted the right way, as are the shims... last time round i got so frustrated i coated everything but the working faces with copper grease in the hope that it would help... but no such luck didnt make a :censored: difference.

Obviously it isnt the pads as i have tried 3 diferent sets and now genuine and it made no difference. could it be the discs? I dont know what brand they are but they were brand new as well when the noise started. im struggling to understand how it could be the disc as its really just a slap of metal...but that is the only thing i havnt changed.

Anymore ideas anyone? its driving me mental!

[inken_dave]

I hope this helps! I had the same problem when I purchased my second hand 1997 110!

Some history!

Brakes started to squeal, just like you said, almost unbearable! I replaced the disks and the pads. Squeal disappears for a couple of thousand on k's, then returns!

How I fixed the problem and some theory which fits the observation!

Ok so initially I has just re-assemble the caliper as I found it. The anti-squeal plate sitting not bonded between the pad, and the caliper piston. With the older caliper, I noticed that the harmonics were created but the piston worn in a way which allowed the brake pad to start to wear at an angle other than perpendicular to the brake disk.

This angle I found would wear on both side, and effectively making the the brake pad ever so slightly convex(curved outwards), only enough to create the harmonic, you could not see it just by looking!

Anyway, how I fixed the problem!

Bought new pads! Bonded the shim/anti-squeal plate onto the brakepad using engineering grade silicon. Then inserted the pad assembly into the caliper with enough silicon to bond the pad assembly to the piston. Enough silicon means that when the caliper is relaxed, the pad assembly still is attached to the piston.

Assembled both sides like this, as soon as they were assembled, I applied heavy brake pedal pressure, then left it overnight to cure before driving.

25000 km's later no noise.

My theory is that the silicon allows the pad and squeal plate to always align in a worn caliper? Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it worked for me.

I know how bad it can get, I was seriously ready to sell the Defender!

Hope this helps!

[BST4X4XFA]

Hi there Chris,

Changed the pads on my TD5 as they were getting to the end of their life. The elcheapo's squealed like crazy, replaced with Bendix 4x4 pads and it still squealed. I had to get my rotors machined to get rid of the glazing.

I know you mentioned that you fitted new rotors and pads. If the first set of pads glazed the rotor then it will keep on squealing even with proper pads. Have a look at the braking surface of your rotors.

Hope you can silence it soon.

Cheers, Jurgens.

[chris_mack]

I hope this helps! I had the same problem when I purchased my second hand 1997 110!

Some history!

Brakes started to squeal, just like you said, almost unbearable! I replaced the disks and the pads. Squeal disappears for a couple of thousand on k's, then returns!

How I fixed the problem and some theory which fits the observation!

Ok so initially I has just re-assemble the caliper as I found it. The anti-squeal plate sitting not bonded between the pad, and the caliper piston. With the older caliper, I noticed that the harmonics were created but the piston worn in a way which allowed the brake pad to start to wear at an angle other than perpendicular to the brake disk.

This angle I found would wear on both side, and effectively making the the brake pad ever so slightly convex(curved outwards), only enough to create the harmonic, you could not see it just by looking!

Anyway, how I fixed the problem!

Bought new pads! Bonded the shim/anti-squeal plate onto the brakepad using engineering grade silicon. Then inserted the pad assembly into the caliper with enough silicon to bond the pad assembly to the piston. Enough silicon means that when the caliper is relaxed, the pad assembly still is attached to the piston.

Assembled both sides like this, as soon as they were assembled, I applied heavy brake pedal pressure, then left it overnight to cure before driving.

25000 km's later no noise.

My theory is that the silicon allows the pad and squeal plate to always align in a worn caliper? Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it worked for me.

I know how bad it can get, I was seriously ready to sell the Defender!

Hope this helps!


Thanks for the good write up! One question though; what happens when these pads are worn & you need to change them? Going to be hard work getting them out of the caliper if theyre siliconed in?

[chris_mack]

Hi there Chris,

Changed the pads on my TD5 as they were getting to the end of their life. The elcheapo's squealed like crazy, replaced with Bendix 4x4 pads and it still squealed. I had to get my rotors machined to get rid of the glazing.

I know you mentioned that you fitted new rotors and pads. If the first set of pads glazed the rotor then it will keep on squealing even with proper pads. Have a look at the braking surface of your rotors.

Hope you can silence it soon.

Cheers, Jurgens.

Thanks, il try Daves technique if that doesnt help i will look at getting the discs machined. They probably are glazed, in fact i tried smoking them in a bit in an effort to reduce noise (worked short term but not long term!)

[inken_dave]

Thanks for the good write up! One question though; what happens when these pads are worn & you need to change them? Going to be hard work getting them out of the caliper if theyre siliconed in?

If you use engineering silicon, just two flat bladed scredrivers will bring the pad out of the caliper while tearing the silicon from the piston only!

I know this because I had experimented with one wheel, found the solution as described before, and applied it to all wheels, with all new pads!

no problems!:D

Just clean surface before and after with a petrol based solvent, but dont use it near the caliper, dust cover, or caliper piston seals!

[inken_dave]

Thanks, il try Daves technique if that doesnt help i will look at getting the discs machined. They probably are glazed, in fact i tried smoking them in a bit in an effort to reduce noise (worked short term but not long term!)

Before I found my solution, I had roughened the disks/padsw, tried to grove the pads to change the natural frequencey, and other things to the disk which I wont record here! Nothing helped unit I bonded the pad assembly using brand new pads!

It started to click when the squeal would always disapear when I installed new or machined PADS! After a while it always came back!

[chris_mack]

it does sound like you had exactly the same problem as i have.

so il get some new pads (again!) later in the week & give it a go.

Fingers crossed!

[gitney]

Hi,
This might be a long shot but I did this once on a car when I changed the pads. I bent the dust/rock disc guard a tiny bit when I was changing the pads and when I put it back together it made an intermittent squeal sound which sounded like pads. The guard was rubbing on the disc. Took me a while before I figured it out. Maybe check the stone guard.
Cheers,
Chris

[chris_mack]

I hope this helps! I had the same problem when I purchased my second hand 1997 110!

Some history!

Brakes started to squeal, just like you said, almost unbearable! I replaced the disks and the pads. Squeal disappears for a couple of thousand on k's, then returns!

How I fixed the problem and some theory which fits the observation!

Ok so initially I has just re-assemble the caliper as I found it. The anti-squeal plate sitting not bonded between the pad, and the caliper piston. With the older caliper, I noticed that the harmonics were created but the piston worn in a way which allowed the brake pad to start to wear at an angle other than perpendicular to the brake disk.

This angle I found would wear on both side, and effectively making the the brake pad ever so slightly convex(curved outwards), only enough to create the harmonic, you could not see it just by looking!

Anyway, how I fixed the problem!

Bought new pads! Bonded the shim/anti-squeal plate onto the brakepad using engineering grade silicon. Then inserted the pad assembly into the caliper with enough silicon to bond the pad assembly to the piston. Enough silicon means that when the caliper is relaxed, the pad assembly still is attached to the piston.

Assembled both sides like this, as soon as they were assembled, I applied heavy brake pedal pressure, then left it overnight to cure before driving.

25000 km's later no noise.

My theory is that the silicon allows the pad and squeal plate to always align in a worn caliper? Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it worked for me.

I know how bad it can get, I was seriously ready to sell the Defender!

Hope this helps!

Didn't work :(

Im thinking next step... replace the discs with genuine LR discs... if that doesnt fix it, next step replace the calipers with geuine calipers...

That must surely fix the problem. Every part will have been replaced by then!

[justinc]

If you can isolate which side is the noisy side, then try a new set of caliper pistons and seals. I have had a very noisy LHR caliper on my RR and new pistons and seals fixed it as it was horrific. I would say that in my case the fault was 1 sticking piston that would apply force to 1 side of the brake pad when applied. anyway, I had tried pads, discs, antisqueal shims bla bla and this was THE fix.

JC

[wrinklearthur]

Digging a bit deeper.

The cups in the wheel bearing may have some very faint chatter marks around them and they can only be seen when the bearings are washed spotless, then the light needs to be at the right angle to see those marks.

If there is noise from there, it gets transported to the discs and so on it goes.
.

[vnx205]

My experience with squealing brakes is that the rears always squealed after driving for a while on dusty roads.

If I used the brakes a few times, the squeal would gradually disappear and would only return if I drove for a km or two on a dusty road without using the brakes.

When I bought some new front pads recently, I asked about anti squeal shims or adhesive. I was told that the only thing needed was the film of rubber on the back of the pads they supplied. I think they were Bendix. He claimed that anything else was likely to create problems rather than solve them.

Recently the rear brakes started squealing much worse than they had ever done before and no amount of braking reduced the noise.

When I dismantled the brakes, I found that one of the shims had been dislodged a bit and appeared to have been making contact with the pistons in a couple of slightly different places and the coating on the shim was chewed up a bit. The shim would not have been making contact across the full surface of the piston.

I glued the shims to the pads so that they couldn't move at all and refitted them and the brakes haven't squealed since, except briefly when I drive on dusty roads.

The only explanation I can think of is that the chewed up shim was allowing the pad to vibrate and that the movement of the shim was preventing good, firm contact with the piston.

Anyway, the quite alarming squeal that had appeared quite suddenly disappeared, so I'm happy. I'm not sure if any of that helps you though.

[Judo]

Hi there Chris,

Changed the pads on my TD5 as they were getting to the end of their life. The elcheapo's squealed like crazy, replaced with Bendix 4x4 pads and it still squealed. I had to get my rotors machined to get rid of the glazing.

I know you mentioned that you fitted new rotors and pads. If the first set of pads glazed the rotor then it will keep on squealing even with proper pads. Have a look at the braking surface of your rotors.

Hope you can silence it soon.

Cheers, Jurgens.

I purchased some rear Bendix pads for my Disco months ago but haven't fitted them yet. Can't be long before I will need to fit them.... Hopefully this doesn't happen to me! I'll try remember to post back here with results anyway.

[chris_mack]

If you can isolate which side is the noisy side, then try a new set of caliper pistons and seals. I have had a very noisy LHR caliper on my RR and new pistons and seals fixed it as it was horrific. I would say that in my case the fault was 1 sticking piston that would apply force to 1 side of the brake pad when applied. anyway, I had tried pads, discs, antisqueal shims bla bla and this was THE fix.

JC


Im pretty sure its both sides at the rear.. il check today though.

Sounds pretty plausible that this could be the issue, only thing is On my Defer there is only one piston per pad at the back... so two per caliper. So Im thinkin that even if its sticking slightly it is still going to push square?

[chris_mack]

Digging a bit deeper.

The cups in the wheel bearing may have some very faint chatter marks around them and they can only be seen when the bearings are washed spotless, then the light needs to be at the right angle to see those marks.

If there is noise from there, it gets transported to the discs and so on it goes.
.

Im pretty sure it is a brake squeal noise.. its a pretty recogniseable noise!

[justinc]

Im pretty sure its both sides at the rear.. il check today though.

Sounds pretty plausible that this could be the issue, only thing is On my Defer there is only one piston per pad at the back... so two per caliper. So Im thinkin that even if its sticking slightly it is still going to push square?

Same system as the RRC, 2 pot rear calipers. It doesn't have to be much of an uneven amount, either. When I overhauled the caliper the pistons came out easily and weren't leaking but were definately pitted and near the outer edge the chrome face was flaking off.

New pistons and seals and silence:)

JC

[chris_mack]

Excellent... il look into that monday then. Iv never changed pistons before, anything i need to know or is it all pretty straightforward ?

[chris_mack]

Job done, and sweet sweet silence! So provisionally i would say JustinCs recommendations did the job! (assuming the dreaded squeal doesnt return )

Cheers for all the help and suggestions guys