Traction control is NO substitute for a Locker. Ha!

[Babs]

Took the kids up to Lithgow Zig Zag Railway today for a bit of fun seen as we are all still alive after the end of the world. :D:D:D

I ran into some young blokes while I was there one a 300tdi Defender owner.

Anyways, the youtube link will show everything, but I was surprised a locked Mazda ute went up this rough section better than I did, mind you this was my second attempt and he made it first go, but reflecting back to my Hilux with the rear locker I think I would have creamed this section.

The traction control just cuts in too slow and if you look in the vid it was not even working on the front drivers wheel when it had load on it, it just would not turn the wheel, whats with that?:rocket: :confused:

I thought it is supposed to stop the wheel in the air and transfer the power to the wheel under load, well that did not happen :mad:

There is no substitute for a Locker IMHO, unfortunately I will now spend more money in the future for a Trutrac or Detroit, Maybe I should have just got the Patrol that has traction and a rear diff lock standard, not to mention the long range tanks :o Don't get me wrong i'm happy with the Deefer just a little disappointed with the trac control system, I thought I would not have to go down the locker path.

And could someone please explain the centre diff lock for me in tech terms (and yes it was engaged) I always thought they locked the transfer case delivering even power to front and rear wheels, but I thought that was standard on the Deefers 50/50 front back or does it stop slippage between front back power distribution?

I'm sure this will be a can of worms, but if you get down to the nitty gritty it has to be a Locker, touring and other intermediate type driving the Trac will be better than open diffs all day long and probably suitable for most people, hell don't forget I did end up making it up there, its just the degree of difficulty in doing it. I would rather ease up less strain on truck and on the environment, no need to sit there spinning wheels and taking 3-4 different lines, i'll leave that to 4wd Action.:eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUOsZgeQedY&feature=youtu.be

I look forward to your replies, Cheers.

Babs.

[andy_d110]

That's why I am currently fitting air lockers to my Series one! Front axle is in the shed at the moment then it's the backs turn.

Will suprise a few out on the tracks when it's done, plus as you say you can drive slower and go easier on the vehicle.

[carlschmid2002]

I was very impressed with mine the times that it has activated. I had one side in a very deep and muddy rut and I just put it in reverse and the dash lights flashed and it made like a clicking sound and I got out of it. My Patrol would ne still stuck. My GU III didn't have a rear locker, but a limited slip diff. The 90s TC works heaps better. I didn't rate the LS Diff on the Patrol at all.

[Babs]

youtube link added :D

[rangieman]

I have owned Td5 Defender with T/C and was impressed how well it worked But in saying that you can not match the positive drive of lockers front and rear , Dont be fooled by this electronic trickery Lockers will always win when used correctly and thats the secret ;)

[isuzutoo-eh]

That track can be driven by a standard tdi 110 no lockers or traction control with minimal wheelspin. Once you learn how to get the best from your Landy you too will cream that section. A locker will always offer more positive traction than tc but don't write it off yet.
I remember my first time up that track, oh boy did I struggle!


The blue Mazda Bater 50 owner is a mate of mine :p

[LowRanger]

You were bottomed out on the rear diff,so you weren't going anywhere in a hurry either way !!

[newhue]

an old chest nit, but tyre pressures did you have?
Must agree it did struggle a bit there didn't it, however it was articulating better than anything else. Traction seemed to be working, that's why I ask what pressure.

I have found it can be a matter of 700 to 1000 revs as well. But it didn't appear you were over revving it at all.
I've been with mates in the high country, all similar pressures on Defenders, but they were working in L2 1400 to 2000 rpm, I was in L2 2500 to 3000 and spinning every where. Once I chilled and got comfortable with the Landy crawl and working the high ground with better lines, it all became quite simple and predictable really.

I agree with Isuzutoo eh, don't rush in just yet. I am more than happy where my open diffs have taken me.
However I am locking my rear next year, mostly for max traction for deepish water crossings. I have psychological disorder with regards to drowning another vehicle.

[roverv8]

The traction control just cuts in too slow and if you look in the vid it was not even working on the front drivers wheel when it had load on it, it just would not turn the wheel, whats with that?:rocket: :confused:

I thought it is supposed to stop the wheel in the air and transfer the power to the wheel under load, well that did not happen

And could someone please explain the centre diff lock for me in tech terms (and yes it was engaged) I always thought they locked the transfer case delivering even power to front and rear wheels, but I thought that was standard on the Deefers 50/50 front back or does it stop slippage between front back power distribution?As you say, it doesn't look like TC is engaging.
Does it have TC control or CDL or both??
I don't know whats different between the D2 & Deefer but a couple of weeks ago i went up a very steep rutted track in my D2 with TC, i was amazed what the TC did, i used to tackle this hill in my old RRC with CDL & rear air locker and can honestly say i was amazed how well the TC performed.
I did have to learn to change my driving style for the TC, to let it do its job as apposed to trying to keep traction in the RRC.

[Xtreme]

From experience and watching your video, it's all about picking the correct line. When you eventually got up, you were further to the left, as all the others were. Sometimes it doesn't need much, just an inch or three - it's a waste of time continually trying on an unsuccessful line, especially without even any change in momentum.

I might add also that TC generally works best and is kinder on vehicle at low revs.

[Rusnut]

just seemed at the end their all through rev range, from stop, you just couldn't get front drivers too drive. it wasn't spinning and couldn't see what the other side was doing. looked to me as though it had plenty on weight on it and given drive should have pulled you up no worries so lock and load.

[2stroke]

Wheel placement seemed to be the difference in that section with the rut on the passenger side, seems to me the other guys knew the track. Also the others seemed to be twin locked (and with taller tyres than standard probably at suitable pressure too). Lockers are a great help but are not a replacement for proper wheel placement, if the diffs are on the ground well that's it, try another line.
Edit: rut on the driver's side.

[Jeff]

Having seen the Defender traction control, it seems quite different to that in the Discovery 2. It seems to not cut in as quickly, where the D2 it does very well. I have seen a video of a D4 and it seemed even better. On trips with forum members with Pumas, they seem to spin quite a bit before it activates.

I wonder if there could be a way of 'chipping' the Defender's TC controller to cut in sooner, people can trick up engine and air suspension controllers without difficulty, so I can't see why not, cheaper than a LSD or locker and possibly not warranty infringing.

Jeff

:rocket:

edit: I just watched the video and as Wayne said, you are stuck on your diff. Bigger tyres would help.:cool:

[scarry]

Two weekends ago we climbed some very rocky steep,loose tracks.The patrol with us did complete the climb but did it difficultly,had two or three goes here and there.Without the LSD it would not have climbed the tracks.The Puma had KM2's at 20 psi and walked up almost everything,two goes in one bad section.

My D4 did it the easiest of all,it was just a walk in the park.Rock crawl,bit of wheel spin in one section,no second go.It is the electrickery that made it do it so easily.Tyres at road pressures as well,42 PSI.

The D4 is not far off lockers,but the Puma TC is nowhere near as good as the D4.I also recon,as said,the Puma TC does not seem to operate similar to the D2.Puma TC was also changed in the later models,i think the earlier models did not operate on all four wheels,just axle to axle,others may chime in with more.

Experience is also important.The more you try different things the more you will learn.
I have not done enough rough stuff in the D4,i would not call myself
experienced with it,yet.

[RVR110]

I've driven that track with traction control a number of times. As for taking a good line, as long as you avoid getting hung up on your diffs and your tyre pressures are appropriate, TC should get you through just about any line on that track. However it takes time to learn how to get the best out of your TC and that requires exploring the way the TC responds to different throttle positions, engine revs and acceleration. Start experimenting on tackling a track like that by first idling up. Then do the track again several adding an extra 500 rpm each time up to about 2,500 rpm and see how your car responds. From there investigate the affect of various amounts of acceleration applied at different points on the track. Then move on to a different type of terrain such as rock steps and learn how the TC behaves there. The driving style is different to open diffs and different to lockers and no matter what you have, it takes some experimentation and experience in getting the most out of your car in different terrains.

Keep in mind that, at the end of the day TC is just a computer that is applying the brakes individually according to an algorithm using input from sensors in the wheels and engine data. The objective is to find out what triggers the algorithm. On the track, it can be frustrating because the vehicle will often stop before the traction control starts to grab, so you lose your momentum.

Also be aware that 2007 to 2010 pumas have a different TC to 2011 onwards pumas which is also probably different to the various iterations that the TD5s would have gone through and each of those different systems would respond a little differently to the same inputs. When I first got my 2011 110 I took it back to the dealer thinking that the TC was either not working or useless, but they were unable to find a fault. After more experience with it I can get a lot more out of the vehicle. It's not as good as lockers but a TC equipped vehicle is a lot more capable than one with open diffs.

[akelly]

Is anyone suggesting TC is a substitute for a locked diff?

[goingbush]

Babs, did you have Center Diff Lock engaged ( move hi low lever to the left and a 4WD symbol appears on the dashboard) if you did then man those Mazdas are better than I'd have ever thought.

Obviously the Mazda bloke dosent know how to drive or pick a line, but really if that can get up then so should the "Worlds best 4x4xFar" even if Babs dosent 'know how to drive' like some of you are alluding.

Its not Bab's first 4x4 he used to have a HiLux so obviously has some 4WD cred

To be honest I think the Defender Traction Control is terribly overrated, Until I put Detroit Eaton true Trac in front & rear of my 110 I trully was not confident that it was a go -anywhere vehicle like y'all say they are.

[Leroy_Riding]

I had the same 'qualms' with the TC in my puma (90) but i was trying to drive it like my old 4wd with lockers, ive found the key is crawl it, go slow, and if you dont succeed as many have said slowly increase revs, if you attack to fast the first time your less likely to try it slower, i live 15mins from the glasshouse and where the TC isn't as good as lockers in all situations its been more than enough to get up things 4wd's with lockers still struggle with, its all about getting used to the Defender, it doesn't matter what you used to drive and how it used to drive, its now about learning how the Defender drives.

also did you speak kind words too it and enforce how much you love it? seems to work with mine if he's struggling :D

[carlschmid2002]

I definitely agree that the Puma TC works best at low revs. The first time I got stuck I was revving it and TC light didn't come on at all. I then put it reverse low and it idled out with TC light illuminating. It's a LR thing. I think every vehicle is individual and have their own quirks. That what I love about mine.

[uninformed]

TC, Lockers....all the gear wont matter if you have more weight on your diff center than your tyres.

The mazda has a different wheelbase so for one thing its puts the rear wheels in a different postion to the front when in the same spot as your landy....as with any other different 4WD.

lockers may have helped in your 2nd attempt, but you got there anyway.

As the others said, driving line and experience will make a difference.

Cruiser was king though :cool:

[GlennWA]

Speaking of going slow. Recently on soft sand beaches and dunes I found that I could get just as far if not further up dunes idling in 1&2L on the anti-stall than with momentum in 1&2H. With more momentum it seemed to dig holes, push sand and spin rather than simply glide over the top with the tyre tread doing its work. I was at 12psi f and 16psi rear to get a little bit of bulge from the standard Goodyear muddies.

I was surprised as on the sand I have previously use the momentum strategy and was only aiming at trying out the TC when I got stuck when going slow! I didn't stop however and even when bellied on a few dunes the TC worked just enough to put the front wheels on the ground again with just a little bit more throttle as they come off the ground if that makes sense.

I had no issues at all with TC in soft sand which was a surprise given the stories abound.

Yet to try rock tracks too much but am looking to get in the Vic High Country in the new year for a blast. I will have to give this slow and steady a go there too!

RVR110 thanks for the informative post.

[Blknight.aus]

Theres nothing wrong with your TC, even if you had an LSD or a rear locker you probably wouldnt have made it through for 3 reasons

1. you were hung up
2. you were badly cross axled
3. either your approach for that line was wrong or you were on the wrong line.

I also suspect that you had the smallest tyres in a section of track thats been well chewed up by 35+ tyres driven redneck style through the same section.

[GlennWA]

Theres nothing wrong with your TC, even if you had an LSD or a rear locker you probably wouldnt have made it through for 3 reasons

1. you were hung up
2. you were badly cross axled
3. either your approach for that line was wrong or you were on the wrong line.

I also suspect that you had the smallest tyres in a section of track thats been well chewed up by 35+ tyres driven redneck style through the same section.

I saw the video again and I think Blknight nailed it. Right at the end someone is talking about the rear diff being hung up. As soon as you reversed and changed lines to get the right rear higher in the rut to clear the diff you made it with ease.

Cheers for the video

[dullbird]

I saw the video again and I think Blknight nailed it. Right at the end someone is talking about the rear diff being hung up. As soon as you reversed and changed lines to get the right rear higher in the rut to clear the diff you made it with ease.

Cheers for the video
I'm totally with mark on this one...I too have driven that track a lot I have driven it in my 300tdi disco with no lockers on much smaller tyres than a fender and Ian also drove it with our standard puma with no dramas what so ever.

Yes the track could of been chewed out more but the track especially at the top is always chewed out and it is very very much about how you position your car and the amount of revs used.

Babs I would highly recommend you get. On some trips with Isuzu and low ranger and RVR110 I have off roaded a fair bit with these blokes and they are knowledgable guys.

You will learn a lot if you go out with similar vehicles on the outset, I'm Not saying don't go out with your mates in the Mazda etc...I'm saying bring them a long with a group of landys...

You will be surprised how much you can learn by simply following another puma that is set up much like your own and you will quickly learn the vehicles and your limitations....the car will go a lot of places, you will find that you are the limitation not to be rude :)The booger I'm sure has driven up that track in his series 2 with no lockers or anything. :)

The biggest thing though is I hope you had fun!!!!

[Blknight.aus]

Right at the end someone is talking about the rear diff being hung up. As soon as you reversed and changed lines to get the right rear higher in the rut to clear the diff you made it with ease.

Cheers for the video


I didnt hear that (no sound on this computer when its on the big screen) the give away fro me was the way the vehicle stopped and the way the body was moving in relation to the wheels when you stopped making forward progress.

[Babs]

Ok? Just going to clear a few things up.


Tyre pressure I had at 19psi

Yes CDL was engaged I did own a 300 tdi Disco in the past so I am familiar with it.

This was my second attempt you saw in the vid and despite the rear diff hung up at one point, the front drivers side wheel was not turning under load at all, if the traction control would have driven that front tyre it would have been enough to get my rear diff past that sticky point.

The fact is it was not turning that front drivers side wheel at all, despite me going back taking a slightly different line, mind you that whole right side was a rut so not really much room to take different lines.

Admittedly I was reserved in my driving as the drivers side was less than a foot of the side and I was worried about panel damage, but despite my driving capabilities and I am still getting the feel of this truck, I have done plenty of this type of driving and have owned 4wd's the past 22yrs.
The guys in the vid I did not know they just rocked up as I was having my first attempt, so there were plenty of onlookers but no one giving me a spot.

As far as people getting through that part with no lockers or trac control I have my doubts, I'm not calling anyone a liar it probably is possible but to what degree do they get through it, plenty of right foot comes to mind and that's not my style there is just no need for that type of driving. As you can see in the vid the first 300 Defender had no traction aids and did not get that far, I edited his drive as it went for a while, plenty of dust wheels spinning going nowhere. He reversed out wise decision as he could see damage on the cards.

I did try a few revs, but also let the antistall work, I love the gearing in low range perfect for that environment, but the trac is just too slow I climbed a few drop offs and the trac just slipped too much, I know if I was locked it would have been a straight climb no wheel spin.

No offence taken I enjoy reading everyone's comments, keep them coming. Cheers :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Blknight.aus]

19Psi I'd have called as too high, Id have thought that 14-15pi would have been about right for that track as it had large sections of soft sand in it.

If you were a foot off either side of that bit of track you would have been putting your tyres right into the holes made by bigger wheel rides.

The reason why the drivers front side wheel wasnt tuning is because it was the one that had all the traction both your back wheels were turning because you were hung on the rear axle and neither of them had enough traction to give you any push. The one wheel that had traction was at its limit of drive, if you had had a locker up the front you probably would have torque steered over to the left and with the rear diff hung up wound up climbing the wall and teetering over.

[LowRanger]

Ok? Just going to clear a few things up.


Tyre pressure I had at 19psi

Yes CDL was engaged I did own a 300 tdi Disco in the past so I am familiar with it.

This was my second attempt you saw in the vid and despite the rear diff hung up at one point, the front drivers side wheel was not turning under load at all, if the traction control would have driven that front tyre it would have been enough to get my rear diff past that sticky point.

The fact is it was not turning that front drivers side wheel at all, despite me going back taking a slightly different line, mind you that whole right side was a rut so not really much room to take different lines.

Admittedly I was reserved in my driving as the drivers side was less than a foot of the side and I was worried about panel damage, but despite my driving capabilities and I am still getting the feel of this truck, I have done plenty of this type of driving and have owned 4wd's the past 22yrs.
The guys in the vid I did not know they just rocked up as I was having my first attempt, so there were plenty of onlookers but no one giving me a spot.

As far as people getting through that part with no lockers or trac control I have my doubts, I'm not calling anyone a liar it probably is possible but to what degree do they get through it, plenty of right foot comes to mind and that's not my style there is just no need for that type of driving. As you can see in the vid the first 300 Defender had no traction aids and did not get that far, I edited his drive as it went for a while, plenty of dust wheels spinning going nowhere. He reversed out wise decision as he could see damage on the cards.

I did try a few revs, but also let the antistall work, I love the gearing in low range perfect for that environment, but the trac is just too slow I climbed a few drop offs and the trac just slipped too much, I know if I was locked it would have been a straight climb no wheel spin.

No offence taken I enjoy reading everyone's comments, keep them coming. Cheers :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Having driven that more times than I care to remember,I can assure you that many people have driven it in unlocked Defenders,there are even a few Defenders that go where L'cruisers fear to tread:p.Having watched the video a couple of times,you can see where your rear diff has been hung up and when you changed lines you can see where it has dragged for a considerable distance.You are correct in thinking that T/C won't get you as far as lockers,but I think you are under a little misconception as to how the T/C works.I can see a couple of times in the video where it looks like the T/C is just starting to work on the R/H/F wheel,but you have changed your throttle position and the T/C has stopped operating.As John (RVR110) has said,it is all about learning throttle control(and that doesn't only go for T/C) and getting a feel for when it is beginning to work,and then being able to keep it working for maximum benefit.Oh yeah,if you look,I have posted quite a few videos of Landies on that section of track;)

[uninformed]

stocko 2wd hilux would have walked it in reverse :p

[rovers1952]

If TC works same as in D3, ....and DSC disabled, should go anywhere....no need for lockers!!

[dullbird]

you can doubt it as much as you like babs but I can assure you I have driven it unlocked in my disco (with a spotter) and while it wasn't an easy bimble up, on occasions there was stopping and the changing of my line I still made it....

Scouse isnt locked either and he has been up in his v8 rangie

my car is locked now and I simply walk it up.

everybody drives that track! so much that it actually became boring :)

Like I say it may of been chewed out more...so now will neeed to go up there again to have a look its been a while.

And Dave when I drive Newnes (zig zag) I generally do not drop my tyres below 24psi...I don't believe there is a need well I have never needed to personally.

Ian never dropped his pressures when he was there. went around on normal road pressure...I only drop for comfort

Ian generally doesnt drop because he is lazy:D

[Xtreme]

Sounds like we might see a big contingent of Landies up there soon, all testing themselves and their trucks on the same day and under similar track conditions. ;)

So who's organising the day out? :D

[dullbird]

I got to bleed my brakes up AGAIN and hopefully things will improve and then I will be out and about in the disco minus the winch until I sort a bar

[Xtreme]

I'm sure Ian could have the brakes bled in half an hour or so and no need to worry about the winch - they're only for adventurers who go out by themselves and need to self recover. :wasntme:

So are you going to set a date Lou? Or maybe we could entice Ron to lead the trip - might need a few bottles of Red for that to happen though. ;)

I'm sure Babs would be a starter, provided date and time were suitable.

[dullbird]

Sorry Rog I ont know my way around Zig Zag...I should I have been there enough.

[Babs]

The reason why the drivers front side wheel wasnt tuning is because it was the one that had all the traction both your back wheels were turning because you were hung on the rear axle and neither of them had enough traction to give you any push. The one wheel that had traction was at its limit of drive, if you had had a locker up the front you probably would have torque steered over to the left and with the rear diff hung up wound up climbing the wall and teetering over.

Cheers, these are the answers I'm searching. I'm thinking the traction should have turned that front drivers side wheel regardless of the rear wheels.
For the record at the time I had no idea the rear was hung up, it certainly did not feel like it.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Slunnie]

Sounds like we might see a big contingent of Landies up there soon, all testing themselves and their trucks on the same day and under similar track conditions. ;)

So who's organising the day out? :D
It'd be a great day playing in the cross-ups around there.

[RVR110]

Sounds like we might see a big contingent of Landies up there soon, all testing themselves and their trucks on the same day and under similar track conditions. ;)

So who's organising the day out? :D

Roger,

Feel free to organise it - just post the dates in the upcoming trips section. I'll be there as long as I'm not pre-booked.

Cheers,
John.

[Babs]

you can doubt it as much as you like babs but I can assure you I have driven it unlocked in my disco (with a spotter) and while it wasn't an easy bimble up, on occasions there was stopping and the changing of my line I still made it....

Scouse isnt locked either and he has been up in his v8 rangie

my car is locked now and I simply walk it up.

everybody drives that track! so much that it actually became boring :)

Like I say it may of been chewed out more...so now will neeed to go up there again to have a look its been a while.

And Dave when I drive Newnes (zig zag) I generally do not drop my tyres below 24psi...I don't believe there is a need well I have never needed to personally.

Ian never dropped his pressures when he was there. went around on normal road pressure...I only drop for comfort

Ian generally doesnt drop because he is lazy:D

Dullbird, I have a sense of doubt not that I don't believe, the question is what it took to get up there open diffed. You did say you walk up it now with lockers, easier on your drivetrain and the track.

Maybe I have been spoilt with my last two vehicles locked, I know it's a luxury but second to good tyres it should be the next mod on any 4wd's list, if you have working suspension don't wast money on lifts get a locker.

My Hilux I just stepped out of I had for 4years and prior to that I had a new GUiV Patrol last of the 4.2 locked up front, I had that for three years. So maybe I have just lost skill over the past 7 years, but I have never had to spin wheels and load the drivetrain in my travels.

Back in the Patrol days I was club secretary for a 4wd club and organised plenty of trips, so although I don't claim to be the best - actually far from it, I'm humble and open to all feedback good or bad, I do however have some idea on how different vehicles perform off road.

In the club we always had guys determined to get up stuff that the locked vehicles would go some would make it others would just make a mess, I just don't see the fun or point in hammering it like that, I'M sure yes sometimes there is exceptions.

A bit like the 4wd Action DVD's some of their driving is ridiculous they don't need to always hammer it like they do, but then that would be too boring and not make for exciting viewing I suppose.

Maybe I'm just becoming an old Fart, and I think the British from the Deefer is rubbing off on me and becoming pompous, anyway each to there own some people like the excitement of open diffs they see it as more challenging, that they make it where lockers go, just not my style, but I respect their choices.

Cheers :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

I'm sure Ian could have the brakes bled in half an hour or so and no need to worry about the winch - they're only for adventurers who go out by themselves and need to self recover. :wasntme:

So are you going to set a date Lou? Or maybe we could entice Ron to lead the trip - might need a few bottles of Red for that to happen though. ;)

I'm sure Babs would be a starter, provided date and time were suitable.

I would definitely love to get out there with you blokes, I know I would feel a lot more confident having similar vehicles around, there were places I did not drive as I had the children and we were a solo vehicle, I did ask those blokes if we could tag along but I shied away, I did not know their experience and would have felt like I was imposing on them. Nevertheless the kids had a ball so did I.

You guys organise it, I'll bring the red. It would be great to see other Deefers capabilities you can't see much in the drivers seat that's for sure. :) :) :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[goingbush]

Babs, if you still got some spare money, do yourself a favour and fit some TrueTracs, All that chattering and backlash banging will dissapear, Truetracs and Traction control work with each other like a match made in heaven.

you'll hardly ever know the TC is engaging, much gentler on diffs axles and CV's too

[dullbird]

yes when I walk it up now its almost on tick over with blips here and there....

I was never suggesting you lost your skill :) I was more suggesting that you probably just havent adapted it to this vehicle yet..every car is different.

and when I said you are a limitation not the car it wasnt meant to be taken personally...that is true for pretty much every driver out there that 4 wheel drives in my opinion, because many cars can go a lot further than what the drivers nerve will take them.

I never hammered my car.....touch wood I have never broken anything off road (although I have probably jinxed myself here) and I have only recently dented a panel but that was due to having the lockers in, as I now go places I wouldnt of typically put the car in without lockers:)

[dullbird]

Babs, if you still got some spare money, do yourself a favour and fit some TrueTracs, All that chattering and backlash banging will dissapear,
Truetracs and Traction control work with each other like a match made in heaven.you'll hardly ever know the TC is engaging, much gentler on diffs axles and CV's too

Thats not what our fellow member JustinC found with one of his patrons cars that had them fitted to a PUMA

[THE BOOGER]

Sounds like an idea some time after the 19th jan would be good.:D have to get past my youngest daughters wedding:) With deefers and older series having a spotter makes a big difference following trucks the same also helps with your line and learning what they can do and how they work. So how about the australia day week end?:)

[goingbush]

Thats not what our fellow member JustinC found with one of his patrons cars that had them fitted to a PUMA

must be a Puma thing, :o

they are have transformed the Td5

also note unlike Ashcroft ATB's Truetrac's come in front & rear , if they are mixed up they do not work properley, which means they dont work properley in reverse (but either does TC)

[Babs]

I'm totally with mark on this one...I too have driven that track a lot I have driven it in my 300tdi disco with no lockers on much smaller tyres than a fender and Ian also drove it with our standard puma with no dramas what so ever.

Yes the track could of been chewed out more but the track especially at the top is always chewed out and it is very very much about how you position your car and the amount of revs used.

Babs I would highly recommend you get. On some trips with Isuzu and low ranger and RVR110 I have off roaded a fair bit with these blokes and they are knowledgable guys.

You will learn a lot if you go out with similar vehicles on the outset, I'm Not saying don't go out with your mates in the Mazda etc...I'm saying bring them a long with a group of landys...

You will be surprised how much you can learn by simply following another puma that is set up much like your own and you will quickly learn the vehicles and your limitations....the car will go a lot of places, you will find that you are the limitation not to be rude :)The booger I'm sure has driven up that track in his series 2 with no lockers or anything. :)

The biggest thing though is I hope you had fun!!!!

Dullbird, I concur. I would definitely pick up a lot off other Puma/Defenders, like I have replied in a previous, you can't see anything in the drivers seat. Hope we can all get together for a play, the suggestion has me excited :)

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[dullbird]

Sounds like an idea some time after the 19th jan would be good.:D have to get past my youngest daughters wedding:) With deefers and older series having a spotter makes a big difference following trucks the same also helps with your line and learning what they can do and how they work. So how about the australia day week end?:)

Yep I will check my roster when I get back to work and I will be up for a play hopefully

[Xtreme]

Sounds like an idea some time after the 19th jan would be good.:D have to get past my youngest daughters wedding:) With deefers and older series having a spotter makes a big difference following trucks the same also helps with your line and learning what they can do and how they work. So how about the australia day week end?:)

Sounds like you've set a date Geoff. ;)

I'll have to give my apologies though as I'll be a bit further west for that weekend (and the following week).

Go ahead though - I'll be interested to read the Trip Report and watch the vids. Have a good time.

[Babs]

yes when I walk it up now its almost on tick over with blips here and there....

I was never suggesting you lost your skill :) I was more suggesting that you probably just havent adapted it to this vehicle yet..every car is different.

and when I said you are a limitation not the car it wasnt meant to be taken personally...that is true for pretty much every driver out there that 4 wheel drives in my opinion, because many cars can go a lot further than what the drivers nerve will take them.

I never hammered my car.....touch wood I have never broken anything off road (although I have probably jinxed myself here) and I have only recently dented a panel but that was due to having the lockers in, as I now go places I wouldnt of typically put the car in without lockers:)

No no no, no offence taken I'm actually suggesting I might have lost my skill, I used my locker even in those situations where I know I probably did not need them, it just made my driving so simple. I'm realising I'm driving the Puma with the intention that the trac works the same as a locker (wrong). So just like my fuel economy problem (now solved) I will have to adjust driving style, and get to know my trac system better.

All Good.

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[Babs]

Babs, if you still got some spare money, do yourself a favour and fit some TrueTracs, All that chattering and backlash banging will dissapear, Truetracs and Traction control work with each other like a match made in heaven.

you'll hardly ever know the TC is engaging, much gentler on diffs axles and CV's too

The seed is planted, but I'll give the trac a bit more of a go yet.

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[Babs]

Thats not what our fellow member JustinC found with one of his patrons cars that had them fitted to a PUMA

What was the problem with it?

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[dullbird]

cant remember exactly but I think it had something to do with the steering or braking or something.....Send JC a PM he might be able to point you in the direction of the thread it was discussed in

[Babs]

Sounds like an idea some time after the 19th jan would be good.:D have to get past my youngest daughters wedding:) With deefers and older series having a spotter makes a big difference following trucks the same also helps with your line and learning what they can do and how they work. So how about the australia day week end?:)

After the 19th sounds great, I have a 50th Birthday on the 19th Sat. So Sun onwards free. You guys set it, I'll try work around the Birthday. Keen as curry. :)

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[PAT303]

Don't know why but I have a theory about traction,I've been around awhile and can remember being out Bathurst way with the Sydney LR club when both a defender,the bloke with the JIL plates and another guy with a twin locked D1 both got stuck in a large ditch,my turn came and my mighty 2.25ltre series 3 SWB drove through like it wasn't there,open rover diffed with 7.50x16 tyres.I've owned quite a few different vehicles with different traction aids and trailed with many more and I honestly believe either of my series SWB's would do them all in all but the most demanding conditions,in the two years I've been in Newman I've seen a twin locked cruiser get humbled by a rodeo,a 200 series get humiliated by a stock D1 and my mates rubicon didn't do well at all against my TDCi.Such is the way the wheel turns. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

Babs, Before you go and take more driving lessons you need to practice a couple of wheel placement activities

1. can hitting.

Find a large empty car park and chuck some empty cans around it then spend a couple of hours hitting the cans with the tyres then once they are all nice and flat practice stopping with the tyres on the cans
2. Cross angling.

Practice driving the vehicle diagonally across kerbs so that the 2 diagonally opposite wheels go from kerb to ground (and vice versa) at the same time do this for both directions.

did you want a description of how the TC works or have you got an idea about it now?

[THE BOOGER]

After the 19th sounds great, I have a 50th Birthday on the 19th Sat. So Sun onwards free. You guys set it, I'll try work around the Birthday. Keen as curry. :)

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I,ll put somthing up in the upcoming events for the weekend of the 26th will see what day is prefered:)

[newhue]

Babs,
Inside popped around yesterday and we put his Freelander through the ditch outside my house. It was cross axed with about 400mm of air under both wheels. Initially it sat there, but once it worked out what was in order, the traction took over and he drove out slow and steady with 0 wheel spin. It took maybe 2 or 3 seconds of steady low revs for it to get organised. I know for me sitting in a car for 2 or 3 seconds doing that would seem like eternity unless you were expecting it.
maybe something to keep in mind with learning the TC curve.

[nugge t]

I know this is a TC vs lockers threads but I think the bigger issue with TC is in soft sand or mud where I find it very frustrating in when the engine is revving and there is no forward momentum. On Moreton recently this occured to the point where the clutch started slipping so either the TC is too good or the clutch is not good enough!

I don't want to dig holes but sometimes you just need a bit of forward momentum.

[ozscott]

Hi Nugget. Not doubting your bad experience with trc on Moreton but something is wrong there. I know I own a disco but I can't see it being too different. I have owned my manual box d2 since new in 02. It's a v8. I have used it extensively in sand at Straddie and I have taken it to Fraser in some of its driest times. I have towed on Straddie and recovered a lot of vehicles including on Main in the dry weather. I have been doing that when new with 29 in tyres and 3 open diffs with only traction control. What I like about ETC In the Disco is that there is zero engine retardation versus the Japanese brands. I assume Deefer is the same?

When I went to 31's and retrofitted the CDL I was in sand Nirvana. I was also able to try it with CDL engaged and ETC fully off and also with both together. Both together wins. I have been a smart pants and set the tyres to road pressure to get to the barge and got stuck towing over a tonn up a cut up soft cutting. ETC helped it to crawl out when the tyre pressures were dropped. When it was new I towed a 2.2 tonn dual axle road van with road clearance and cheese cutters into Flinders with open diffs. The traction control was working hard but it did what the vehicle could not have done without it at that stage with no CDL.
Cheers

[nugge t]

Hi Nugget. Not doubting your bad experience with trc on Moreton but something is wrong there.

Hopefully nothing that the the new HD clutch won't fix!

[Babs]

Babs, Before you go and take more driving lessons you need to practice a couple of wheel placement activities

1. can hitting.
Find a large empty car park and chuck some empty cans around it then spend a couple of hours hitting the cans with the tyres then once they are all nice and flat practice stopping with the tyres on the cans
2. Cross angling.
Practice driving the vehicle diagonally across kerbs so that the 2 diagonally opposite wheels go from kerb to ground (and vice versa) at the same time do this for both directions.

did you want a description of how the TC works or have you got an idea about it now?

:) can hitting. Funny. Sounds like good practice but I can't see myself doing that, besides it won't take that long to get to know my vehicle off road, and if I go with you guys or a club there will be experienced spotters to tell me where to put my wheels or what they are doing.

If you could give me more of a run down on the TC it would be appreciated. My knowledge so far is it brakes the opposing wheel the wheel not under load and sends power to the loaded wheel with ground contact. Which is why I was confused when it did not turn my front drivers side. What I have gathered from your previous comments is maybe that wheel had excessive load too excessive for the TC to perform???

If you could help out on a run down on how it performs and it's capabilities/limits it would be appreciated by me and others as there is a few people who would benefit from your info. Cheers. :)

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[Slunnie]

Don't know why but I have a theory about traction,I've been around awhile and can remember being out Bathurst way with the Sydney LR club when both a defender,the bloke with the JIL plates and another guy with a twin locked D1 both got stuck in a large ditch,my turn came and my mighty 2.25ltre series 3 SWB drove through like it wasn't there,open rover diffed with 7.50x16 tyres.I've owned quite a few different vehicles with different traction aids and trailed with many more and I honestly believe either of my series SWB's would do them all in all but the most demanding conditions,in the two years I've been in Newman I've seen a twin locked cruiser get humbled by a rodeo,a 200 series get humiliated by a stock D1 and my mates rubicon didn't do well at all against my TDCi.Such is the way the wheel turns. Pat
I know the man, I'd bet he just stuck it in there for a bit of fun and to try it out. Great fellow.

[Slunnie]

I know this is a TC vs lockers threads but I think the bigger issue with TC is in soft sand or mud where I find it very frustrating in when the engine is revving and there is no forward momentum. On Moreton recently this occured to the point where the clutch started slipping so either the TC is too good or the clutch is not good enough!

I don't want to dig holes but sometimes you just need a bit of forward momentum.
Probably need to drop your tyre pressures. When they are right the TC basically does not much.

[Babs]

Babs,
Inside popped around yesterday and we put his Freelander through the ditch outside my house. It was cross axed with about 400mm of air under both wheels. Initially it sat there, but once it worked out what was in order, the traction took over and he drove out slow and steady with 0 wheel spin. It took maybe 2 or 3 seconds of steady low revs for it to get organised. I know for me sitting in a car for 2 or 3 seconds doing that would seem like eternity unless you were expecting it.
maybe something to keep in mind with learning the TC curve.

Point taken, I suppose this is where the antistall comes in, I love that antistall feature. :)

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[ozscott]

Stick it to her mate!

Cheers

[ozscott]

:) can hitting. Funny. Sounds like good practice but I can't see myself doing that, besides it won't take that long to get to know my vehicle off road, and if I go with you guys or a club there will be experienced spotters to tell me where to put my wheels or what they are doing.

If you could give me more of a run down on the TC it would be appreciated. My knowledge so far is it brakes the opposing wheel the wheel not under load and sends power to the loaded wheel with ground contact. Which is why I was confused when it did not turn my front drivers side. What I have gathered from your previous comments is maybe that wheel had excessive load too excessive for the TC to perform???

If you could help out on a run down on how it performs and it's capabilities/limits it would be appreciated by me and others as there is a few people who would benefit from your info. Cheers. :)

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Get on the gas early and let the slip begin and dont back off the throttle (but not too much throttle) and the ETC will grab the wheel(s) and transfer drive through the open diffs to the wheels with grip. Learning to get the most out of LR traction control takes time. Backing off stops the grabbing of the rotors and you are slipping again big time, so just keep on the throttle. Go and get it cross axled for fun...you can get it so that it just sits there lightly grabbing the wheel(s) in the air, then squeeze the throttle and you will hear it working and feel it also.

Cheers

[Scouse]

Scouse isnt locked either and he has been up in his v8 rangieIt's one of those tracks that can change each time you go up it, depending on who's been stuck & chewed out a new section.

Here it is a few years ago in the wet with HT tyres in my "double unlocked" RR:

Scouse AULRO Newnes 4-10-09 - YouTube

[goingbush]

Scouse, thats great, Do you have a photo showing how the camera is mounted?.

[chook73]

Try reversing down a steep hill in low range and then say that, antistall is great when you are going forward, damn scary when going backwards......


Point taken, I suppose this is where the antistall comes in, I love that antistall feature. :)

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[Bush65]

... With more momentum it seemed to dig holes, push sand and spin rather than simply glide over the top with the tyre tread doing its work. ...
Momentum doesn't cause wheelspin :o

Torque in excess of the available traction (tractive effort) causes wheelspin, i.e. on low traction surfaces less torque can be applied if you want to avoid wheelspin.

And sufficient momentum is your friend by letting you proceed with less torque applied when traction deminishes.

[Babs]

It's one of those tracks that can change each time you go up it, depending on who's been stuck & chewed out a new section.

Here it is a few years ago in the wet with HT tyres in my "double unlocked" RR:

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PNxwEW2IrU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PNxwEW2IrU)

Scouse,

Great vid, I like the camera angle.

If everyone is thinking that track is like that now - Wrong. Scouse your camera would be squashed if you drove that now, the section where I was stuck I was a foot or under away from the sides you just could not see from where my vid was taken, it is badly rutted out one long rut where I was, not just a dip. It's not a walk in the park like that anymore.

Loved the vid though and your others. Cheers.

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[slug_burner]

Just to think if you had driven the section of track the first time like you did the last we would not have had all this great discussion, video clips and offers of trips.

Lockers particularly air lockers are simple and easy to work out what is going on. I have them on the 300tdi. On the Td5 I don't have lockers and have been very happy with the TC. Every system has it's limits, TC on the front axle would better than a locked diff as far as steering goes.

I think some of the basics stay the same though, having a spare set of eyes to help you prevent getting hooked up on the diffs and help you put the wheels places you can't see one your on top of them would have to be one that could help us all.

[Scouse]

Scouse, thats great, Do you have a photo showing how the camera is mounted?.I use one of these:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Wood's Powr-Grip Co., Inc. | 3" Suction Cup Camera Mount (http://www.powrgrip.com/cgi-bin/powrgrip/91158.html)

[dullbird]

Scouse,

Great vid, I like the camera angle.

If everyone is thinking that track is like that now - Wrong. Scouse your camera would be squashed if you drove that now, the section where I was stuck I was a foot or under away from the sides you just could not see from where my vid was taken, it is badly rutted out one long rut where I was, not just a dip. It's not a walk in the park like that anymore.

Loved the vid though and your others. Cheers.

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and I bet you any moeny you like scouse would still drive it double unlocked:D

the mans car is a hover craft.......T/C and lockers is no substitute for a good driver which he is:)..

you gunna come out scott if we go? it been a long time

[chook73]

Are you going to put a trip up Lou? I should be getting mine back on the 18th so will be keen to get out.....

[GlennWA]

Momentum doesn't cause wheelspin :o

Torque in excess of the available traction (tractive effort) causes wheelspin, i.e. on low traction surfaces less torque can be applied if you want to avoid wheelspin.

And sufficient momentum is your friend by letting you proceed with less torque applied when traction deminishes.

G'day Bush65

Point taken and you are technically correct and perhaps I should have worded it better.

With greater speed and momentum you tend to plough into the sand when ever there is an elevation in the sand surface. Think of a bump on the beach at low speed you simply go over the bump and at high speed you go through the bump due to your momentum and the inertia of the car to continue in the same direction. It is going through the bump that digs the tyres in and leads to you being in the sand instead of on top of it. If you go through the bump with your momentum you then have to climb over the pile of sand you have pushed forward. In soft wheel ruts with speed it is difficult to get out of them due to the ploughing effect yet at slow speed you can ride up and over. All a matter of balance.

This was my observations and perhaps not applicable in all scenarios and as I said a little counter intuitive to what I was expecting. Yet I found I could idle up the same tracks where I had previously used momentum and lots of wresting to get there. There is obviously a point where you will need a bit of momentum but my point is it is not that often in my limited experience.

Cheers

[chook73]

Scouse,

Great vid, I like the camera angle.

If everyone is thinking that track is like that now - Wrong. Scouse your camera would be squashed if you drove that now, the section where I was stuck I was a foot or under away from the sides you just could not see from where my vid was taken, it is badly rutted out one long rut where I was, not just a dip. It's not a walk in the park like that anymore.

Loved the vid though and your others. Cheers.

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Hey babs have a look at this thread from a forum trip a 18 months ago, same track, it was wet and slipery. There are photos and videos and you can see how the different trucks (nearly all unlocked apart from Lowranger, BrendanM and George) handled the track......

I think there were two pumas with TC and then a couple of non TC defenders.

Now the track has got worse in the last year but I would argue the wet conditions balance things out. Every truck made it up there even the ones without TC at all, they just had more fun......

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/nsw-act-reports/131019-zig-zag-june-19th.html

[PAT303]

Momentum doesn't cause wheelspin :o

Torque in excess of the available traction (tractive effort) causes wheelspin, i.e. on low traction surfaces less torque can be applied if you want to avoid wheelspin.

And sufficient momentum is your friend by letting you proceed with less torque applied when traction deminishes.

The reason the old 2.25's were such a good offroad engine IMHO,enough power to get you through but not too much as to cause wheelspin. Pat

[GlennWA]

Are you going to put a trip up Lou? I should be getting mine back on the 18th so will be keen to get out.....

I should be in Sydney on 13-19 Jan if anything is being organised :)

[PAT303]

Have any of you Sydney members heard of Heart Break Ridge at Bowral?,you might give the Hornsby or Bowral clubs an email and find out how to get there,thats if you want a HARD track. Pat

[dullbird]

no but we do go down to Yalwal there can be some narly type things down there for the car that's not set up like a comp truck...

Iian I think Geoff is going to put something up

[Scouse]

and I bet you any moeny you like scouse would still drive it double unlocked:D

the mans car is a hover craft.......T/C and lockers is no substitute for a good driver which he is:)..

you gunna come out scott if we go? it been a long timeI'd love nothing more than attending an AULRO trip. I should be able to manage a trip these days.

[isuzutoo-eh]

If it's after the Australia Day weekend i'll come along...but i don't mind missing just another Newnes trip...was only up there weekend before last. Very dry and powdery but pipelines was super easy.

[sashadidi]

The reason the old 2.25's were such a good offroad engine IMHO,enough power to get you through but not too much as to cause wheelspin. Pat

I agree Pat, we got though several thousand km of muddy roads like this in Africa (after passing the Sahara desert which was another story!!!)and the old 2.25 was great, I just learned to drive on these roads and there was not a break in the bad road conditions for a copuple of thousand km ,it was all bad and we were carrying a lot of fuel and so had to be careful not to break anything by charging into every hole in the road. Somedays we only made 10km.

[2stroke]

I'd suggest, Babs that those guys had already driven that hill once or twice that day and were trying to "stitch you up". The cruiser was obviously twin locked and running on probably 35s and I'd say the dualcab was also locked with fair sized tyres. The IFS would have been an advantage in that situation as well as a little more front diff clearance. I only have a rear locker in my 130 and when the Salisbury plough hits the track it's usually time to look at another line, just depends how close you're prepared to go to the passenger side wall.:o

[LowRanger]

The funny part about this track is that I have never had to use the front locker,even in the wet.The power lines is just a place where people go and hone their driving skills with minimal risk,as there isn't really too much of a challenge.I only go there when we are passing through on the way home from somewhere else these days.

[Babs]

Hey babs have a look at this thread from a forum trip a 18 months ago, same track, it was wet and slipery. There are photos and videos and you can see how the different trucks (nearly all unlocked apart from Lowranger, BrendanM and George) handled the track......

I think there were two pumas with TC and then a couple of non TC defenders.

Now the track has got worse in the last year but I would argue the wet conditions balance things out. Every truck made it up there even the ones without TC at all, they just had more fun......

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/nsw-act-reports/131019-zig-zag-june-19th.html

Chook, yeah mate the track is worse now, either way I'm sure I'll be shown up by a few blokes if we get out there, I'll have to do the old tortoise and pull my head in.

Great vids, looked like a really good day out, you coming?

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[cewilson]

Conditions change though.....


I know last year I was very surprised how torn up it is around Lake Lyell compared to how I remembered it. I still got the wife's stock standard 90 series Prado through there, but it was very technical and required a lot more commitment than I was really looking for.

I used to drive that whole area in an unlocked 200tdi Defender, now days I've prefer a locked and lifted Defender to do it all easier.

[Babs]

I should be in Sydney on 13-19 Jan if anything is being organised :)

Glenn you driving up?

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[dullbird]

Babs not going out that way now as mark was only out there last week and said its basically the same old same old..we going to the Watagans instead your more than welcome to join just put your name down in up and coming events :)

[Babs]

I'd suggest, Babs that those guys had already driven that hill once or twice that day and were trying to "stitch you up". The cruiser was obviously twin locked and running on probably 35s and I'd say the dualcab was also locked with fair sized tyres. The IFS would have been an advantage in that situation as well as a little more front diff clearance. I only have a rear locker in my 130 and when the Salisbury plough hits the track it's usually time to look at another line, just depends how close you're prepared to go to the passenger side wall.:o

Yeah the cruiser had either 33" and the cut 80 series was running 35" not sure about the Mazda, one of his mates said he was twin locked the other said he thinks he had just one. I remember driving that some time ago with my locked Hilux it was a walk in the park, but not as rutted back then. The cruiser ute looked like he had front lockers.

The two cruisers had already done that as they said so, the Mazda and other Deefer had just arrived when I got there.

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[Babs]

Babs not going out that way now as mark was only out there last week and said its basically the same old same old..we going to the Watagans instead your more than welcome to join just put your name down in up and coming events :)

Whoa would love to do the Watagans, have not done that yet, well not the tricky stuff. I'll check the dates I might be lucky to do both. Thanks for the invite :)

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[2stroke]

Watched it again, good to see different vehicles and driver's approaches to the same obstacle. Hard to make a good comparison though since it seems to be filmed from different places and edited. You can see where your TC works in the rut further down and the only time yours struggled was nearer the top, once you bit the bullet and reversed further down and went further left it was all good. If you did it again you'd go straight up. Both cruisers, even the 80 on it's 35s had to go left in the bigger rut that gave the TDI the problems.

[Babs]

Watched it again, good to see different vehicles and driver's approaches to the same obstacle. Hard to make a good comparison though since it seems to be filmed from different places and edited. You can see where your TC works in the rut further down and the only time yours struggled was nearer the top, once you bit the bullet and reversed further down and went further left it was all good. If you did it again you'd go straight up. Both cruisers, even the 80 on it's 35s had to go left in the bigger rut that gave the TDI the problems.

Your right if I had to do it again and I kept left I would probably make it straight up.

My concern was and still is that the trac cont never turned that front right wheel.

Anyways it's all fun & lessons learnt. :)

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[GlennWA]

Glenn you driving up?

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G'day Babs

Yep. I have to work in Richmond from 14-18 Jan so will likely drive up and back on the adjoining weekends.

[Babs]

G'day Babs

Yep. I have to work in Richmond from 14-18 Jan so will likely drive up and back on the adjoining weekends.

Glenn, Richmond your right at the foothills convenient location. RAAF?

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[chook73]

G'day Babs

Yep. I have to work in Richmond from 14-18 Jan so will likely drive up and back on the adjoining weekends.

Are you interested in a run on the 19th Glenn? I was planning to head up there anyway.

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[GlennWA]

Hello Chook

I wouldn't want to slow you down being a newbie and all but I think I should be available. I will PM you later with my details.

Cheers

[Yorkie]

it does take a little to work out the t/c, i know on my d2 at first it bugged me but then working out to steady slow throttle control sorted it out.

available 19th if anyone heading up there for a run. :)

[chook73]

it does take a little to work out the t/c, i know on my d2 at first it bugged me but then working out to steady slow throttle control sorted it out.

available 19th if anyone heading up there for a run. :)

Trip posted in upcoming events :)

[Tombie]

I can answer this easy...

WHEELBASE :D

And you need to drive the right line in the shorty, not just plow on up ;)

[disco2_dan]

Well today I nearly crapped my pants, took my d2 up a tiny rock face at the end of a road at springwood, done it a couple times its only 5 or so metres in hight, quite steep though, did the not so steep but easy then tried the really steep bit traction control kicked in my front wheels skidded to the left about a foot to the left I turned right to compensate but tc stopped power to the front wheels then my whole front slid to the left leaving me sitting sideways on a crazy steep rock face, girlfriend screaming me thinking the trucks about to roll and not knowing what to do, so whacked it in first turned left and gave it a boot full!! Tc has me a little worried after today, before today however I thought it was great!!

[dullbird]

mate without knowning exactly what you were facing there could of been alsorts of reasons for this..dont stress it you will have a ball when you come out with us and you will know exactly what your car can do :)

[Tombie]

Well today I nearly crapped my pants, took my d2 up a tiny rock face at the end of a road at springwood, done it a couple times its only 5 or so metres in hight, quite steep though, did the not so steep but easy then tried the really steep bit traction control kicked in my front wheels skidded to the left about a foot to the left I turned right to compensate but tc stopped power to the front wheels then my whole front slid to the left leaving me sitting sideways on a crazy steep rock face, girlfriend screaming me thinking the trucks about to roll and not knowing what to do, so whacked it in first turned left and gave it a boot full!! Tc has me a little worried after today, before today however I thought it was great!!

Cdl locked?

TC can't shuffle you sideways.
And can't stop power to the front if the CDL is engaged.

[disco2_dan]

Oh I'm sure it's just cause I haven't got used to it yet but jeez it put me heart into my mouth hahaha, it's just so strange for me every other 4wd I've had I would have been fine, but hey I'm glad I know even on a steep hill sideways the landy was fine!! Hopefully by the time I come out with you guys I will have my Ashcroft cdl kit in!!!

[dullbird]

I hate side slopes it really isn't my thing but you will be surprised at how far a landy can go on a sloope usually the nerve of the driver gives out before maximum angle on a slope....

in saying that though I dont think waynes nerve would give out first in his landy :p

[Steve223]

Did the same track with my Disco 3 two weeks ago

Had a technical weekend doing the same track several times with different lines, tyre pressure etc. I also tried without TC but switches itself on again.

Had no problem with TC and no lockers

Technical Weekend - YouTube (http://youtu.be/6LRJg7Kzyfo)

But I guess TC is different to Defenders TC

Steve

[Xtreme]

Did the same track with my Disco 3 two weeks ago

Had a technical weekend doing the same track several times with different lines, tyre pressure etc. I also tried without TC but switches itself on again.

Had no problem with TC and no lockers

Technical Weekend - YouTube (http://youtu.be/6LRJg7Kzyfo)

But I guess TC is different to Defenders TC

Steve

Excellent video and excellent driving Steve.
It's good to see the results of a good vehicle and driver working well together. I guess the spectators, considering the vehicles that were parked, were pretty amazed at your run. :D

[Steve223]

@ xtrem

still learning the ropes but truly enjoying it.

Think I'm the only Disco or LR in the club and the looks
have changed from sort of hm indifference and slight pity to asking question like so how does that work with the suspension [biggrin].

looking forward of getting out more with other LR people so I can learn more LR specifics

[Babs]

Did the same track with my Disco 3 two weeks ago

Had a technical weekend doing the same track several times with different lines, tyre pressure etc. I also tried without TC but switches itself on again.

Had no problem with TC and no lockers

Technical Weekend - YouTube (http://youtu.be/6LRJg7Kzyfo)

But I guess TC is different to Defenders TC

Steve

Tried to watch it on my iPhone. Says the content owner has not made this available to watch on mobile. ???? Why?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[disco2_dan]

Only just saw your post tombie, no I currently don't have cdl (I do have the Ashcroft kit ready to install but need a hand with it so thought I will just give it to the mechanic to do when his back from holidays) I'm not 100% sure what happened but there was some little loose rocks/pebbles at the top which I think contributed to the prob, but from the drivers seat it just felt like my front wheels where locked and sliding on the loose pebbles/rocks and felt like my front wheels were doing nothing, I may be wrong but then I also didn't let my tyres down at all and it had been raining all day so they may have been turning and just getting no traction, I will be driving past there today so I will try to get some pics for yous, it may help me to get an idea of what I've done wrong

[Steve223]

Tried to watch it on my iPhone. Says the content owner has not made this available to watch on mobile. ???? Why?

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


good question? think because of the music used, not something I deliberately choose.

try this one without music or sound

Technical Weekend with my D3 in the Blue Mountains - YouTube

[disco2_dan]

Really nice looking rig, hardly looked like it was tryin lol

[460cixy]

Would go been good to see a few of the other machines there having a go

[LowRanger]

I use one of these:

http://www.powrgrip.com/powrgrip/images/items/91158.jpg

Wood's Powr-Grip Co., Inc. | 3" Suction Cup Camera Mount (http://www.powrgrip.com/cgi-bin/powrgrip/91158.html)

Scott

Did you purchase the mount direct from Woods or is there a reseller here?

[Babs]

good question? think because of the music used, not something I deliberately choose.

try this one without music or sound

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_u8G3E_ZoY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_u8G3E_ZoY)

Good job, looks like I took the wrong line then, real easy for the D3. Always love watching a LR in action :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Steve223]

Good job, looks like I took the wrong line then, real easy for the D3. Always love watching a LR in action :)

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Best line I think was really hugging the side walls, at one point Only the sliders
Kept the door separated from the walls. Plenty of he Nissans and Toyotas in our group required several attempts as well.

[Scouse]

Scott

Did you purchase the mount direct from Woods or is there a reseller here?Hi Wayne,

There is a reseller here
C.R. Laurence Co., Inc. (http://www.crlaurence.com.au/default.aspx)
but quoted something like 3 times the US price then refused to get one in for me anyway.

I sent an email to Woods direct & explained the actions of their Australian distributor. They eventually agreed to sell to me direct & it was here in 3 days (with a bag of jelly beans).

[LowRanger]

Thanks for that Scott
I think I will contact Woods direct,as I want a 6" version.That should be big enough to hold an iPad,as I don't want to have to use a seat mount stalk type mount.

[chuck]

Arkon in the US have some good holders for ipads.

Go thru US as agents in Aus do not carry same products.

Bought a good holder for ipad that mounts on head rest bars - ggod price & delivery.

They do have suction holders as well.

Cheers

[Babs]

Arkon in the US have some good holders for ipads.

Go thru US as agents in Aus do not carry same products.

Bought a good holder for ipad that mounts on head rest bars - ggod price & delivery.

They do have suction holders as well.

Cheers

Aldi just had a special on iPad headrest holders.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[stewie110]

Hey there,

What tire pressures are you running in the vid? look like they are pretty high.

I spend a fair bit of time in the newnes plateau area in my 01 TD5 110.. it has traction control and a rear maxi drive locker.. I rarely have to use the locker if I get the momentum and tire pressures right..

That being said.. having the locker as a fall back makes life feel safer :)

[Babs]

Hey there,

What tire pressures are you running in the vid? look like they are pretty high.

I spend a fair bit of time in the newnes plateau area in my 01 TD5 110.. it has traction control and a rear maxi drive locker.. I rarely have to use the locker if I get the momentum and tire pressures right..

That being said.. having the locker as a fall back makes life feel safer :)

I was running 19 psi.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[dullbird]

Stewie I have never run below 24 at newnes...my other half never even let his down and went around with 38/40pounds in it.:D

[LowRanger]

Stewie I have never run below 24 at newnes...my other half never even let his down and went around with 38/40pounds in it.:D

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm:burnrubber:

[will993]

G'day Babs,

I own the other defender in the video. Sorry we didn't hang about, I forgot you asked if you could tag along...
The mazda sheared an axle later in the day, trying to get up a steep section which I managed as did the little zuke.
As for the section discussed here, the only way I was getting up was to hug the wall. It would have been too easy to fall into the rut and smash a guard.
Also it was the first track and I was hung over...excuses.

[dullbird]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm:burnrubber:

What's that supposed to mean:p

Never raced up anything yet???:eek:I'm not a right foot sorta girl;:cool:

Only reason I go to 24 is because that's what the stauns are set too:D its too much like hard work to change them

[LowRanger]

What's that supposed to mean:p

Never raced up anything yet???:eek:I'm not a right foot sorta girl;:cool:

Only reason I go to 24 is because that's what the stauns are set too:D its too much like hard work to change them

That's just the wheels spinning offroad from not airing down enough:D

You can adjust the Stauns;)

[dullbird]

I know you can adjust stauns they are a pain in the **** to do so...hence why they haven't been adjusted...since the last time they were set.

I have a set at 18 and a set at 24 :)

[LowRanger]

I know you can adjust stauns they are a pain in the **** to do so...hence why they haven't been adjusted...since the last time they were set.

I have a set at 18 and a set at 24 :)

Use the set at 18 and throw the set at 24 away:p

[isuzutoo-eh]

Use the set at 18 and throw the set at 24 away:p

I find 24 is a good pressure for firetrail touring, and use 18ish for the low speed crawly stuff :)

[dullbird]

I havent had any dramas at 24 I havent been stuck and I dont go wheel spinning everywhere seems to work for me and what I do...:) I only usually get a little bit of wheel spin if I have picked a bad line.

[rick130]

Use the set at 18 and throw the set at 24 away:p

Says the man with 35's that when aired down to 10psi still give more clearance under a Sals than Lou's poor Disco with Rover diffs and 40psi in the tyres :D

[LowRanger]

Actually I wheel a lot with people with small ones:D And they always work better when let down:wasntme:
And I usually run about 16psi for firetrails and * when I am serious

[dullbird]

Says the man with 35's that when aired down to 10psi still give more clearance under a Sals than Lou's poor Disco with Rover diffs and 40psi in the tyres :D

too true I have even less ground clearance than waynes car on standard general grabbers:D..possibly even with a puncture:p

[LowRanger]

24Psi wouldn't have got you very far, where I was today.:o

[isuzutoo-eh]

24Psi wouldn't have got you very far, where I was today.:o

Woolworths...

[LowRanger]

Woolworths...

No,unlike some others,when I go out in my Defender,it is actually off road;)

[dullbird]

So Target country then?

bit unfair Mark woolies really is subaru territory now

[RVR110]

24Psi wouldn't have got you very far, where I was today.:o

Neither did 10 psi :p
Not that I'm criticizing... I fared worse and people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones :angel:

[Babs]

G'day Babs,

I own the other defender in the video. Sorry we didn't hang about, I forgot you asked if you could tag along...
The mazda sheared an axle later in the day, trying to get up a steep section which I managed as did the little zuke.
As for the section discussed here, the only way I was getting up was to hug the wall. It would have been too easy to fall into the rut and smash a guard.
Also it was the first track and I was hung over...excuses.

G'Day Will,

No Probs with the kids around we would have cramped you guys style. The girls just wanted me to drive over bumps after that, so I gave them a bit of fun. Then the storm hit and my Deefer hightailed it for the tarmac, I had no control over it, it does not like mud :eek:

Sorry to hear about your mates Mazda, as long as you all had fun it makes it somewhat worth it :o

Anyways it was good to see another Deefer out that day :D

[newhue]

hey Babs, I have a brand new Ashcroft locker that will fit perfectly into your rig. Brand new still in the box, and will hook up to an ARB compressor easily as it has all the bits to do so. $500 cheaper than ARB and arguably as good if not better. Ashcroft has been making high quality stuff for LR's for some time now and has plenty of runs onto board. Check the add in drive line parts section of the Markets.

[LowRanger]

Neither did 10 psi :p
Not that I'm criticizing... I fared worse and people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones :angel:

It was actually only 14psi,next time I will bring the bead locks and try 6psi,in the one spot where I failed to proceed:wheelchair:
Even though I don't think that anything short of a buggie on 40's will drive that section
But my initial comment wasn't even directed at that section,I was thinking of some other sections.

[XHPBT1]

I have owned my d2 since new, and TC was amazing when new as the years went on I started to notice TC letting me down until I realized putting on after market break pads etc, just recently I had enough of this TC and replaced all break pads, discs and master cylinder, now the TC is unbelievable back to like new the wheel locks when it's in the air etc... I have been with 4" landcrusiers with front and back diff locks and still running a standard d2 setup still going the exact same places with TC

My experience only time TC will let u down is when you can afford to have any wheel Spin like climbing a mountain rock wall...

Also LEARN UR D2 u have to learn how to use TC to get the max advantage

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

hey Babs, I have a brand new Ashcroft locker that will fit perfectly into your rig. Brand new still in the box, and will hook up to an ARB compressor easily as it has all the bits to do so. $500 cheaper than ARB and arguably as good if not better. Ashcroft has been making high quality stuff for LR's for some time now and has plenty of runs onto board. Check the add in drive line parts section of the Markets.

Jason,

Thanks for the offer, however I will give the Trac a bit more of a chance before I do anything, if I do decide to go with an added aid I will probably go with the LSD or a Detroit though (no maintenance). Good Luck with the sale, it should not be a problem :)

[uninformed]

how is an ashcroft locker any more "maintenance" than a LSD or detroit???

[the_preacher1973]

how is an ashcroft locker any more "maintenance" than a LSD or detroit???

It needs a compressor, airlines, and switches and solenoids.

Not sure how often they need maintenance though.

Also not sure how that compares with worn clutch packs in an LSD either.

Perhaps "simpler" may have been a better description but there's definitely swings and roundabouts.

[uninformed]

It needs a compressor, airlines, and switches and solenoids.

Not sure how often they need maintenance though.

Also not sure how that compares with worn clutch packs in an LSD either.

Perhaps "simpler" may have been a better description but there's definitely swings and roundabouts.

yep, and he would also have the ability to air up his tyres with that compressor, and chose when locked or not....meh

maybe we should watch some vids of other makes driving tracks. That would be real Tech!

[OffTrack]

Also not sure how that compares with worn clutch packs in an LSD either.


Neither the TruTrac or Ashcroft ATB (both are a Torsen type LSD) have clutch packs.

Exploded View - Inside the Eaton TrueTrac Differential - YouTube

[rick130]

There's a thread here http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/86065-quaife-differential.html with pics of the Quaife ATB, T2 Torsen and Tru-Trac.

[Babs]

how is an ashcroft locker any more "maintenance" than a LSD or detroit???

Not an Ashcroft but had the ARB locker in previous Hilux. At times it leaked oil from where the airline attached to the diff. And the hoses are vulnerable to being ripped out, came very close one time and was paranoid about it ever since.

I already have an air compressor set up for tyres and I'll keep it for that.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[uninformed]

Not an Ashcroft but had the ARB locker in previous Hilux. At times it leaked oil from where the airline attached to the diff. And the hoses are vulnerable to being ripped out, came very close one time and was paranoid about it ever since.

I already have an air compressor set up for tyres and I'll keep it for that.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Yep, and as much as ARB have had their problems, alot of the time it is install. In saying that the Ashcroft locker is better design and materials. But it has also been said that some of the "auto lockers" work well with the TC....IMO I would not shy away from a manual locker because of reliabilty.

[RVR110]

So Babs, Did we get your TC sorted out? ;)

Zig Zag 19th January 2013 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/nsw-act-reports/167321-zig-zag-19th-january-2013-a.html)

[Defender Mike]

I climed Callicup hil this week at 2 eters per minute with the TC working in dry soft sand. I did a hill start at around a 3.5 to 1 incline climb after i ran out of puff in second low range about 50 m from the top. i thought it would
bury itself but blow me down it kept climbing at 1500 rev. This hill is about 1000 ft above sealevel and you start on the beach. Standard new 90 tyres let down to 8 psi. The TC light was flashing on and off the whole time. I was very impressed ,if i didnt get up it meant staying until help arrived in a very remote area.:)
Mike

[Xtreme]

I climed Callicup hil this week at 2 eters per minute with the TC working in dry soft sand. I did a hill start at around a 3.5 to 1 incline climb after i ran out of puff in second low range about 50 m from the top. i thought it would
bury itself but blow me down it kept climbing at 1500 rev. This hill is about 1000 ft above sealevel and you start on the beach. Standard new 90 tyres let down to 8 psi. The TC light was flashing on and off the whole time. I was very impressed ,if i didnt get up it meant staying until help arrived in a very remote area.:)
Mike

I don't know Callicup Hill but it sounds pretty awesome so well done (BTW some pics would be nice - remember there are:rulez:) and I'm glad that you have discovered/experienced that slow and steady often produces better results and is less stressful on your vehicle and the environment than high range and lots of momentum.

I wish others would take the time to play in the sand pit and experiment with different gearing and momentum - too many 4WD'ers are afraid of being embarassed if they don't surmount an obstacle on the first attempt so forget about driving skill and just charge ahead.

[LowRanger]

Well said Roger;)
I enjoy being the ultimate tortoise to others being the hare,when offroad:D

[Xtreme]

Well said Roger;)
I enjoy being the ultimate tortoise to others being the hare,when offroad:D

With a username such as yours Wayne, I wouldn't expect any thing else. :D

[justinc]

I don't know Callicup Hill but it sounds pretty awesome so well done (BTW some pics would be nice - remember there are:rulez:) and I'm glad that you have discovered/experienced that slow and steady often produces better results and is less stressful on your vehicle and the environment than high range and lots of momentum.

I wish others would take the time to play in the sand pit and experiment with different gearing and momentum - too many 4WD'ers are afraid of being embarassed if they don't surmount an obstacle on the first attempt so forget about driving skill and just charge ahead.

I know this Hill Roger, it is pretty much Sahara like in appearance and height!! :o, in hot weather it is VERY loose.
Callcup Hill 1, Land Cruiser 0 - YouTubeWarren River Dune Climb - Callcup Hill - YouTube
and in car;
Great effort to get over this time of year:) My RRC sounded good at 5000rpm


JC

[Defender Mike]

My video of traveling up the hill is upside down but here it is at the top.I was a little bit excited and clearly very happy to get out of there.

IMG 0926 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd9Hcewz0Ys&feature=youtu.be)