The standard of P-plate drivers getting worse?

[sheerluck]

I know there is constantly much debate on here about the poor standard of driving, but there is one particular section of the driving community that seems to stand out as being poor, and that is P-platers.

The story here: Rogue P-plater enrages motorists after he was snapped with both feet hanging out the window | The Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/rogue-p-plater-enrages-motorists-after-he-was-snapped-with-both-feet-hanging-out-the-window/story-fndo1wyv-1226543396588) really says it all about the lack of care and poor attitude to other road users. It is noticeable out on the roads - if someone weaves in and out of the lanes, chances are it's a p-plater. If someone is sitting in the outside lane without a care in the world, most likely there will be green or red p plates on the back. Got someone sitting on your back bumper? Yep, you might not be able to see the number plate, but you can see the P plate.

In theory they have the most draconian rules applied to them, but it seems to make little difference.

Now my 16 year old daughter is taking lessons at the moment, and has had about 20 hours of professional tuition so far, with about the same on top from me and SWMBO. One thing I note, is that there seems to be a great deal of concentration on the little things, such as having a rule on how you grip the gear stick (have insisted she learns in a manual!) but not so much on the big things, such as the examples above.

Is that how it is now? We need to micro manage our new drivers with tiny stupid little rules? Or are we expected to rely on Darwinian principles and only the good drivers will make it past 20?

As you can imagine, my sense of dread grows the closer my first born gets to that test, and am doing all I can to influence her driving style. But what can realistically be done to the larger P-plate group?

[mikehzz]

Professional driving instruction teaches them how to pass the test. You are quite correct about the minute little details that need to be correct because it is what the examiner will be ticking off a sheet. I taught both my boys how to drive the way my father taught me. Plenty of common sense and regard for everyone around you on the road. Then I sent them off for driving lessons where they learnt a lot of stupid things that were required to pass the test. They both told me straight out that this was the case. By the sound of things, you are teaching yours the correct way. I think that the poor standard you have observed must be due to those drivers only being taught to pass the test. I don't mean to be slamming pro driving instructors here. They're being paid for results and they get them.
On another note, I must say I have lost respect for many truck drivers. When I was growing up I held them in very high esteem and deservedly so. My father was a truckie. These days there just seems to be a lot of car drivers driving trucks, so many speeding aggressive tailgaters.

[Chops]

G'day Dave,
I wish you well on all of this.
Our daughter, not long turned 19 had all the right stuff taught to her whilst learning. I'm a fairly aggressive driver myself, although I have manners and consideration for all other road users, which includes things like looking to see how fast someone is hurtling down the road before pulling out and making them have to brake.
Ours is not a perfect driver, nor is she bad. And most importantly, don't forget what we ourselves were like at that age/experience, although we didn't need the hours behind us that they do now.
Ours has already written off one very nice little Fiesta, now drives a new Focus.
One would think that with that experience under ones belt, one would have learnt something maybe (??).
Hmmm,, na,, still only took just a tad under 3 1/2 hours to get from SE Melb to Wodonga. Having done the trip myself God only knows how many times, I know she's sped, and had no breaks on the way.
I can only imagine how one might feel when it all comes crashing down in a heap, and I dread it.
Unfortuneatly it's all about attitude, and their all taught its their right,, even after its already cost them. How do you change that? If someone can enlighten me, I'm happy to listen.

[loanrangie]

Totally agree chops but it seems to be the their attitude to everything, last week i had a P plater in a micra or similar matchbox car pull in front of me when i was 3/4 across a roundabout, i just missed him and the little tray ute that was beside had to hit the anchors to avoid a full on T bone.
Little **** was probably too busy listening to his doof doof or trying to look cool to consider the traffic conditions. I have another 8 years till my eldest can go for her license and although i will try to prepare her as much as i can (as you did) i'm still dreading it.
It doesnt help when most other motorists are driving aggressively as well.

[mick88]

Have to agree!
A few days ago my 18 year old niece who has had her "P's" for about 8 months drove us home from a family function. It was a journey of about 150 kays, a few kays of unsealed road and then the remainder along the busy Sturt Highway. Her driving was atrocious, braking late, braking hard, cornering under brakes, one hand on the steering wheel with a laxed grip, complacent, careless, eating an icecream whilst driving, meandering from the rumble strip on the left to the centre line and so it goes! Her driving did not instil any confidence in me what so ever. Her father was sitting in the front along side her and I thought he should pick up on her errors, but then he was her instructor when she was on "L's"
I think driver training should be part of the school curriculim, as it's a much need survival and life skill that most adults will have a need to use almost daily for the remainder of their days on earth!


Cheers, Mick.

[ATH]

She probably caught her bad driving habits off her Dad, Mick, so he's not going to see them as faults.
Many years ago when I was off on a long job overseas I taught the wife to drive.
She failed first time because according to the examiner she shouldn't have changed down through the gears approaching a corner and gave far too long an indication of her intentions.
Apparently she should have rushed up to the corners, banged the foot on the brakes, 4th to 2nd, flick the indicator and round the corner.
My way she risked other motorists running into her and would wear the clutch/gearbox out.
So we called in a professional instructor in, he checked her driving and said it was great, but he would teach her how to pass the test, and she did.
Since then some nearly 40 years have passed with 1 accident with bad damage to the car but luckily no inuries, and a car park incident where another driver caused bad dents/scratching down the side of the car and would have driven off if our daughter hadn't seen him do it......both P platers.
And the stupid examiner on her first test got inducted into the the RTA (Road Traffic Authority) a long defunct forerunner to the WA Traffic Enforcement Group whose driving leaves a lot to be desired.
Bah humbug.:D
AlanH.

[Slunnie]

None of this stuff is unique to P plate drivers. It's everywhere on the road. I also think on the highway at least that the trucks are by far the easy ones. In my opinion the ones that are the most dangerous are the oldies who drive insanely slow and have no idea of what's going on around them. The P plate drivers although doing silly things like everybody else generally have a much higher awareness of what happening around them.

And yes, there will be individual counter arguments to any argument.

[Ausfree]

None of this stuff is unique to P plate drivers. It's everywhere on the road. I also think on the highway at least that the trucks are by far the easy ones. In my opinion the ones that are the most dangerous are the oldies who drive insanely slow and have no idea of what's going on around them. The P plate drivers although doing silly things like everybody else generally have a much higher awareness of what happening around them.

And yes, there will be individual counter arguments to any argument.
I saw an elderly lady go round a multi lane roundabout out side a major shopping centre (you can imagine the heavy traffic) THE WRONG WAY!!:eek: She did not have a clue to the chaos she was causing as she calmly indicated that she was leaving the roundabout after finding the entrance to the Shopping Centre!!:mad:

[Jeff]

I spend quite a lot of time on the road, and in the past week have had a run in with a P plater, but nothing like the problems with Sydney taxi drivers and the over 70s. The theory that the more practice you get the better you get are blown on these two groups. They seem to think the world doesn't exist outside their vehicle and everyone else must avoid them, not the other way around. I worry more about my kids crossing the road than driving on them.

Mikehzz, I have found truck drivers are much better than they used to be. There were more speeding aggressive tailgaiters twenty years or more ago in my experience.

Jeff

:rocket:

[Landy Smurf]

generally P platers are good drivers but quite a few of them just do stupid things.
I had a young driver tailgating me( he was driving an old commodore no surprise then really) he had his partner in the car and 2 young kids in the back, he ended up turning off and when he did he had the tyres screeching. well later on he comes and gets fuel at the servo and it was raining so when he turned onto the highway from the servo he did the same thing.
Driving is definitely a privilege not a right.
at school we did a driving safety awareness course which went over 10 weeks and every week we went to a different thing for an hour.

[frantic]

It's actually been proven that dedicated driver training centres that can simulate everything from massive rain to black ice, teach how to drive and change lanes etc reduce P plater deaths signifigaintly. The drop in new driver death rates in austria was the perfect example after they made attendance and passing at those dedicated centres PART of the requirements for a car license. The article was a few years ago in a motoring mag

[CraigE]

I don't think it is just P platers or even a large majority. There are far more fully licensed drivers that are idiots. Remember P Platers are still effectively learning to drive in general conditions. Of course there are idiots on P Plates. There are so many clowns on the roads in WA. The lane hoppers that have to do 120kmph, the people that don't know how to merge, the no indicator brigade and then those on bikes that have a death wish (nearly took a Harley out a week or so ago). The list go's on and on and the majority of these are not P platers or even young drivers.

[sheerluck]

I don't think it is just P platers or even a large majority. There are far more fully licensed drivers that are idiots. Remember P Platers are still effectively learning to drive in general conditions. Of course there are idiots on P Plates. There are so many clowns on the roads in WA. The lane hoppers that have to do 120kmph, the people that don't know how to merge, the no indicator brigade and then those on bikes that have a death wish (nearly took a Harley out a week or so ago). The list go's on and on and the majority of these are not P platers or even young drivers.

I suppose that part of my point is that P platers have a badge on the car that the eye is drawn to, so you see it and register it and it becomes much more memorable than the run-of-the-mill lunacy that infects the roads.

But on the flip side of that, the P platers will have only recently passed their test, so the road rules should be more fresh in their minds, and therefore more inexcusable that those whose test was 20, 30 or 50 years ago.

[V8Ian]

I never cease to be amazed by drivers of all ages and genders who can only drive in fifty foot increments. I'm glad I don't have to pay for their tyres, brakes and fuel. I can drive accross the city, rarely touching the brakes or accelerating heavily.

[vnx205]

I wonder how much of the attitude that some new drivers have now is because there is now so much emphasis in marketing and in car reviews of how safe modern cars are and how well they go, handle and stop.

Some of us spent a lot of our early years driving cars that we knew had limitations. We knew, for example, that unless we changed back to second going down the Dorrigo Mountain, that our FJ Holden would run out of brakes long before we reached the bottom. Some people seem to believe that modern cars have no limitations. They think that ABS will stop them no matter how short the distance and the ESC will get them around the corner no matter how fast they enter. They also seem to think that the secondary safety features will always save them. Some of them seem to forget that the laws of physics still apply, no matter how many electronic aids the car has or how much hype there was in its marketing.

In spite of the importance of improving driving, I don't believe driver training should be part of the school curriculum. There isn't room for anything more in the school curriculum because of the extra things society has expected to add in the last half century or so. It is a bit unreasonable for society and the media to attack schools because of falling standards in the 3Rs and then in the next breath ask them to also teach students about politics, sex, anger management, budgeting, decision making, ethics and advanced driving techniques.

There is another reason I don't think schools should try to teach driver training, even if they could find room in their already crowded curriculum. I am convinced that more accidents, injuries and deaths are the result of the driver's attitude, not his or her ability. Driver education might be appropriate in schools. Driver training isn't.

[Chops]

I suppose that part of my point is that P platers have a badge on the car that the eye is drawn to, so you see it and register it and it becomes much more memorable than the run-of-the-mill lunacy that infects the roads.

But on the flip side of that, the P platers will have only recently passed their test, so the road rules should be more fresh in their minds, and therefore more inexcusable that those whose test was 20, 30 or 50 years ago.

I'm pretty much thinking the same thing. I was lucky as my father had no issues in letting me drive lots when I had my "L"'s. certainly still no where near the 120 or so hours they have to gain now, but lots more than my mates around me had.
Our attitude to life and respect for other people around us was very different to what it is now.
As guys, we wanted to "learn to drive" the car, and not just essentially be a passenger behind the wheel. So we went out, found quiet roads and made mistakes. But none of us ever had passengers and were all mindful of what where and how we were doing it. We knew being on public roads stuffing around was wrong, but we were very conscious of limitations and consequences.
Back in those days, we felt bad if we were sprung doing something wrong, as when the old man found out, his clip under the ear hurt,, usually the pride more than anything.
These days, if someone's caught, it's just one big joke and a "whatever" attitude. My daughters first car had damage just behind the front wheel, when quized about it, it took months for her to tell me how, but turns out some "mate" pulled the handbrake on as she was taking a round about. Some mate. We've probably all had experiences like that, although when it was done to me, he had a mighty long walk, and it was his car ;)

I'd personally like to see special driver training from the word go, with lots of exposure to the real effects of bad behavour, including the blood and guts that comes with it. Sorry, but I think they need "real world" insight.
They show lots of adds on TV, but who really watches those,, certainly not a teenager that's got their phone stuck to their head/fingers.

[V8Ian]

I wonder how much of the attitude that some new drivers have now is because there is now so much emphasis in marketing and in car reviews of how safe modern cars are and how well they go, handle and stop.

Some of us spent a lot of our early years driving cars that we knew had limitations. We knew, for example, that unless we changed back to second going down the Dorrigo Mountain, that our FJ Holden would run out of brakes long before we reached the bottom. Some people seem to believe that modern cars have no limitations. They think that ABS will stop them no matter how short the distance and the ESC will get them around the corner no matter how fast they enter. They also seem to think that the secondary safety features will always save them. Some of them seem to forget that the laws of physics still apply, no matter how many electronic aids the car has or how much hype there was in its marketing.

In spite of the importance of improving driving, I don't believe driver training should be part of the school curriculum. There isn't room for anything more in the school curriculum because of the extra things society has expected to add in the last half century or so. It is a bit unreasonable for society and the media to attack schools because of falling standards in the 3Rs and then in the next breath ask them to also teach students about politics, sex, anger management, budgeting, decision making, ethics and advanced driving techniques.

There is another reason I don't think schools should try to teach driver training, even if they could find room in their already crowded curriculum. I am convinced that more accidents, injuries and deaths are the result of the driver's attitude, not his or her ability. Driver education might be appropriate in schools. Driver training isn't.Spot on, the attitude spills onto many other areas of life too. Attitudal training should come from the home.

[bee utey]

Many young people, especially males, have attitude. They had in my day, too. Part of growing up is testing limits and annoying oldies. Most, like me, grow up and improve their skills as well as their attitude. Some don't. Even the ancient Romans wrote about the Youth Of Today in disapproving tones.

I look forward to the future of cars being autonomous. Only highly trained drivers will be allowed to control a "vintage" non-automated vehicles like those of 2012 and before.

[Bigbjorn]

Ages ago I sold a rear engine coach and a couple of trucks over a period to a largish well regarded driving school, then still family owned and operated.

The CEO told me that a valuable part of their business was corporate driver training.

Large fleets, like one I briefly managed with 70 sales reps cars, would have their company drivers go to a course in advanced driving. Usually the fleet owner was motivated by discounted insurance for qualified drivers. He said the first things they did were put the drivers to written tests of road rules and road common sense, then have them drive an instructor around to assess their skills or lack thereof.

He reckoned many of them were quite terrifying drivers with many bad habits which needed to be trained out of them before they could do the advanced driving course. Most were resentful at being sent on the course, thinking they were perfect drivers who needed no teaching in what they thought they did so well.

The school had a skid pad set up on the hard stand of a vacant warehouse and uppity students were put on that to break down their resistance and to make fools of themselves. A session on the pad usually convinced all but the thickest that they knew virtually nothing about car control.

This school got the job of teaching Brisbane City Council tram drivers to obtain bus licences after the trams were taken off the road. Many trammies did not own a car nor did they have a car licence let alone a heavy bus licence. He reckoned a big problem with the old trammies was to get them to turn up sober for lessons. Some even presented drunk to go for a licence test. Common practice with the motormen on old open platform trams was to have a bottle of plonk in the coat pocket particularly so on a winter's night shift.

[ATH]

We live not far from WAs Police Academy and only last week we saw a cops car with a P plate in the front window. Nothing in the rear though.
What's the betting this recruits first option after they graduate will be traffic duties, just like 90% of all the new recruits.
I spent 10 years working next door to this place and I can truthfully say the standard of driving from supposedly trained police drivers and recruits is woeful.
As a senior officer once said to us "If we don't give them a pretty car to drive, they won't join".
And they have the authority to hand out tickets to other drivers?:o
No wonder the average driver seems to be bordering on the suicidal/homicidal.
AlanH.

[Tombie]

Oh how nice it is to forget what it was like to be young once :angel:

[sheerluck]

Oh how nice it is to forget what it was like to be young once :angel:

Tombie, being young is not generally seen as an excuse for being a complete ***** behind the wheel. You can be young, AND not wipe other people off the road.

[Treads]

Hmmm,, na,, still only took just a tad under 3 1/2 hours to get from SE Melb to Wodonga. Having done the trip myself God only knows how many times, I know she's sped, and had no breaks on the way.
I can only imagine how one might feel when it all comes crashing down in a heap, and I dread it.


She's very lucky that she didn't meet me or one of my colleagues - We're out on the Hume all the time ;)


We live not far from WAs Police Academy and only last week we saw a cops car with a P plate in the front window. Nothing in the rear though.
What's the betting this recruits first option after they graduate will be traffic duties, just like 90% of all the new recruits.
I spent 10 years working next door to this place and I can truthfully say the standard of driving from supposedly trained police drivers and recruits is woeful.

I could pick your poor reasoning and generalisations to bits; but I couldn't really be bothered.... :mad:

[Chops]

She's very lucky that she didn't meet me or one of my colleagues - We're out on the Hume all the time ;)

I wish,, maybe she may learn something,, I love her to bits, but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
She says she doesn't speed, but my Garman says differently. I know none of my cars go that quick :eek:

[Treads]

We regularly pick up people doing some big speeds here. Almost everyday someone gets done at 150km/h+ :o

A lot are P-platers....

[FireFox]

I lost a friend today in a car accident. He was killed instantly when an "unaccompanied learner" traveling at 130kph hit the drivers side of his car at head height. Yep the offender was airborne through the intersection. Now my mate is gone and the offender walked away. So i would quite happily like to generalize here and say that all drivers up until 15 or more years of driving experience are gained,are absolute idiots and need to be punished harsher than ever if they will not learn to obey the rules.

End of rant. Sorry. Venting.

[George130]

Yes most young drivers are silly and think they are invincible. So did I when I was young.
Roads were quieter back then and yes it taught me to drive. It also made me realise the consequences of making that big mistake.
Modern cars are safer but they don't give you the feedback and once you drive beyond the drivers aids it's to late.

Firefox sorry to hear about your loss.

[It'sNotWorthComplaining!]

We regularly pick up people doing some big speeds here. Almost everyday someone gets done at 150km/h+ :o

A lot are P-platers....
they're usually not aware of their surroundings until the split second before impact into a tree or something, but then of course it's too late for them.
they don't drive like that when doing their driving test.
maybe a licence should be a 2 stage thing, you have to do a retest after 12 months. Or make drivers pay a few thousand dollar bond which is returned after a period of safe driving. Stupidity is a skill many easily gained.
Unfortunately, there are always people that have the job of scraping the remains out of cars or off trees.

[Jeff]

maybe a licence should be a 2 stage thing, you have to do a retest after 12 months.

I thought they were a two stage thing. Green 'P'- Red 'P'.

Maybe a test every 12 months, for everybody. My work requires me to do a bike refresher course every two years to try to break bad habits and stop overconfidence. A lot of the course we do is about attitude, like blaming others when you could have avoided the whole situation. On a bike it doesn't matter whose fault it is if you are hurt, you are still hurt.

Jeff

:rocket:

[PeterM]

I've spent a lot of time on the roads across this country, be they city or country and by motorbike, car/4wd and truck. I've also done defensive driver courses and advanced skills courses and a couple of things stick in my mind.

1. You cannot rely on the road rules to keep you safe. The reason for this is that people interpret the rules differently or are unaware of rule changes.

2. The vast majority of collisions are nose to tails. They reckon that a 50% reduction in the total collision rate would happen if people maintained an appropriate gap and looked further up the road.

One thing I have found through riding and driving a truck is that you do tend to plan ahead as a matter of course and you can predict what other road users are going to do because you are looking ahead, evaluating what they are doing and what options they have. I constantly surprise my wife with my predictions as I know what they are going to do before they do, why? Because they don't plan, they react.

The react instead of plan mentality is evident throughout society as is the teaching to pass the test, rather than learn how to do something in practice.

I will be teaching my children how to drive and will be instilling in them good habits and attitudes. Someone else can have their car abused as they attempt to teach them how to operate a car, or hell, I might do what I did with my wife and get a cheap car to teach them that as well.

[Ausfree]

This bloke on a bike was clocked doing in excess of 180k's an hour, these are the sort of idiots the police have to cope with.;)

Horror day on roads | Newcastle Herald (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1205538/horror-day-on-roads/?cs=305)

[PeterM]

I'd suggest that initiating and continuing a pursuit at those speeds over a failure to stop at an RBT is negligence bordering on rank stupidity. If the rego plate details had been captured early on, call off the pursuit and meet him at his place. Even if it hadn't risk vs. the reward does not add up.

[Chops]

So, are you guys agitating for the speed limit to be lifted to reflect the design parameters of the road? You do know that all major freeways in this country are designed to have traffic safely travel on them at 140km/h?

The roads might be made for a good speed, but with bad attitudes and a lack of experience, most drivers can't handle it, let alone those on P plates.
And I say "most" because when you look closely at drivers in the city, their always abusing someone, road rage is starting to go berserk.

[Chops]

One thing I have found through riding and driving a truck is that you do tend to plan ahead as a matter of course and you can predict what other road users are going to do because you are looking ahead, evaluating what they are doing and what options they have. I constantly surprise my wife with my predictions as I know what they are going to do before they do, why? Because they don't plan, they react.

The react instead of plan mentality is evident throughout society as is the teaching to pass the test, rather than learn how to do something in practice.

I will be teaching my children how to drive and will be instilling in them good habits and attitudes.


I agree totally about reaction and planning, and have tried to do the same with ours, but I think most of it fell on deaf ears :(

[p38arover]

1. You cannot rely on the road rules to keep you safe. The reason for this is that people interpret the rules differently or are unaware of rule changes.

From some of the posts I see on the Whirlpool forum, it's obvious that many people simply don't know some of the basic road rules. What surprises me is that most are those who received their licence relatively recently. I could understand oldies like myself who have held a licence for 45+ years not knowing some of the recent law changes but that's not the case.

To know all the road rules would be almost impossible, there are simply too many - there are 349 pages of them. See http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/Reports/ARRFeb12.pdf

I'm not sure how the cops keep up with them.

[p38arover]

I've watched the Highway Patrol TV show and it seems to me that the coppers are exceptionally fair in their dealings with drivers. I know some will say it's because they are on camera but I have my doubts. I'd suggest that those on camera are like that all the time. I also know the HWP has a bad name with some drivers but, as I've never had any dealings with them apart from RBT, I can't comment.

[Treads]

I work with one of the officers who's been on that show. She's like that all the time.

We only deal with about 10% of society on a day-to-day basis (5% perps/5% victims), so the only time we come into contact with the other 90% is when we're asking them to "give one continuous breath into the device"

Which incidentally is when I see some of the funniest things occur. People get so nervous when the blue and reds come on! :D

[tangus89]

I think instead of just regulating learner/new drivers we should look at what has worked in other countries and implement them here.

at least one of the states in the US gives you two chances to pass your license test (they go straight to full license i think, but make this the same as the red p's) if you fail twice, another 6 months on the learners as you are obviously not ready.

A kiwi mate of mine was telling me a few years ago that they have a system that after you get your l-plates, you move to a solo license. so only you in the car at all times, no passengers. get confidence and driving skill up without anyone egging you on and no one in your car to kill if you do something stupid. (only those around you) from memory that lasted for 6 months.

There are some good ones in scandinavia (someone said something similar earlier), as their roads are often covered in ice and snow etc. they have to do a skid pad and control the car, be able to control a drift etc. and a few other good tests like that as part of getting their license. (one reason they produce so many good rally drivers?) if we could do that here, teach the learners how to control a drift, what to do when you spin out on tar and gravel in front and rear wheel drive cars (depending on what they drive). its a lot of extra effort by everyone, and a lot of people seem to think that teaching people to do those things "safely" will make them go out and do it, but they already are, wouldn't you prefer it to be done with some control?

Another good one is the attitude of drivers thinking their cars can stop instantly and corner at any speed etc, Jeremy Clarkson suggested a good one to change attitudes of drivers. Replace the airbags in cars with spikes. so even if you have a minor crash, you will die, along with your passengers. everyone would drive around at about 20km/h or just ride bikes.

cheers

[V8Ian]

I'd suggest that initiating and continuing a pursuit at those speeds over a failure to stop at an RBT is negligence bordering on rank stupidity. If the rego plate details had been captured early on, call off the pursuit and meet him at his place. Even if it hadn't risk vs. the reward does not add up.
And if the vehicle or plates are stolen? If the police were banned from chasing runners, there would be far more runners. Fail to stop should attract a five year driving ban for the first offence instead of a slap on the wrist.

[29dinosaur]

The standard of P-plate drivers getting worse?

Probably not - having driven for nearly forty years (both city and country), I know blokes of my age when learning who behaved just like our current batch of P-platers. Having said that I see a whole lot more female P platers these days who obviously are driving their own little Japanese buzz box who are pretty bad drivers. (Group that with a certain subset of Indian and other Asian drivers).

[PeterM]

And if the vehicle or plates are stolen? If the police were banned from chasing runners, there would be far more runners. Fail to stop should attract a five year driving ban for the first offence instead of a slap on the wrist.

Cause and effect Ian. Realistically, so what if the bike or plates were stolen. A pursuit at those speeds is unlikely to end well, if the person doing a runner was wanted or guilty of a major crime (running an RBT isn't) then fill your boots but remember that there is risk to all involved, including other road users.

Regarding pursuits, I believe that anecdotal evidence suggests that there has been an increase in the number of pursuits in the last couple of years. There is also a suggestion that there is a correlation between that and the 'hoon laws'. If someone is facing having their car impounded or crushed (the legalities of which are still being debated) then they are more likely to have a go at running. The result is that you have police command calling for tougher penalties for those who do a runner. It becomes a vicious circle.

[PeterM]

The roads might be made for a good speed, but with bad attitudes and a lack of experience, most drivers can't handle it, let alone those on P plates.
And I say "most" because when you look closely at drivers in the city, their always abusing someone, road rage is starting to go berserk.

Yep, and I believe that those who patently cannot or should not be driving should have their licence removed from them. They can take a taxi or public transport.

[Treads]

What you're forgetting is that in the vast majority of cases these ****tards are driving like idiots and putting everyone else on the road at risk anyway - That's how they generally attract our attention ;)

[Chops]

It's unfortunate that the position of police can't be changed.
By this I'm refering to how they get around doing their job.
They drive flash cars that any idiot can see for miles, which by the way makes for an excellent armed guard :D , cause it's the only time I know I'm not going to be cut off, all around will use a blinker, and they get off their phones. I was lucky to have this happen again on the way up last week, but what he didn't see was what was going on before he joined us.
My view,, get more police on the road,, in unmarked cars, even on bikes etc, but not in uniform. Then you can nab the ******* on the phones more, and if your driving around in peak periods, I believe you'll see more of what the "average" driver is doing wrong. Then maybe, with a few more fines etc, Mr Average will start to behave a bit better, and the ******* will start to sit up and take notice too.
I feel bad for the coppers, they get a hiding from us all, we always think we're hard done by, because generally we get nailed right after we've just been passed by some clown, "who's just got away with it" :mad:
But, you do the crime, you do the time. :angel: It's just too bad they can't always get their man.
And it still leaves us with the problems of juniors attitude.

[Treads]

150 kmh may be in excess of the arbitrarily set speed limit, but I don't consider it fast. Subject to traffic volume, most of the Hume in Victoria can be safely driven faster than that....

....Remember, speed limits are arbitrarily set by bureaucrats, politicians, and police and mostly are set with no regard to the conditions.

Refer my previous post:


“I am the police, and I'm here to arrest you. You've broken the law. I did not write the law. I may disagree with the law; but I will enforce it. No matter how you plead, cajole, beg or attempt to stir my sympathy. Nothing you do will stop me from placing you in a steel cage with gray bars.

If you run away I will chase you. If you fight me I will fight back. If you shoot at me I will shoot back. By law I am unable to walk away. I am a consequence. I am the unpaid bill. I am fate with a badge and a gun.

Behind my badge is a heart like yours. I bleed, I think, I love, and yes I can be killed. And although I am but one man, I have thousands of brothers and sisters who are the same as me. They will lay down their lives for me and I them. We stand watch together. The thin-blue-line, protecting the prey from the predators, the good from the bad. We are the police.”

-End of Watch ;)




The views expressed are my own and not those of my employer

[p38arover]

Just a friendly reminder to everyone - do not turn this thread into a slanging match about the police.

There are quite a few serving and ex-police on this forum and by attacking the police, you are, ipso facto, attacking them. I have met nearly all of them and can say, without reservation, they are very nice people who would be welcome at my table or campfire any time.

Hmm, on second thoughts, I might exclude certain gun-buggy luvvin' South Aussies! :D

Only 'cos he is South Aussie, of course.

:wasntme:

[flagg]

When I was a p plater I did things that with 13 years of driving now I would not. I think this would be true of pretty much everyone. I loved cars, and driving, and while I knew e rules there were a few occasions where I drove out to remote roads (not hard considering where I grew up) to experience the handing limits of my car.

To me, there are two things at play - careless driving, and 'spirited' driving. They must be dealt with separately.

The driving test has little to no content about careless driving. Most drivers (of any age) have any idea about how to position their seat, or why it should be in a certain position. Nor do they know about the blind spots of their eyes, or how long it takes for an image to be seen and acted upon. I fact I would go so far as to say that most would not be able to answer these as well as being able to state how many metres it took their car/4x4 to stop in different conditions.

I am less concerned about a p plater darting in and out of traffic than I am of someone who is driving along with the seat too far back, who is thinking about an argument they had at work, and not properly checking their blind spots.

In a sense, driving with care is more important than having driving skill.. As superior judgement and skill will get you out of trouble before you need to use your superior skills.

Speaking of skills... I instantly lost interest in driving on the road in a 'spirited' manner when I joined a car club and did my first track day. A day of being thought how to drive, experiencing the handling limits, hearing the glorious inline 6 at max RPM down a straight and feeling the brake fade after hitting the anchors from 200 down to 60 as hard as you can, I simply had no interest in doing it on a road.

Every time I see a boy racer car being flogged down the road I get really sad that people these days just don't have access to the tracks that old generations did.. And every year the remaining ones are closing. It is a real tragedy.

The combination of this, and the current road safely message being about speed, booze and mobile phones (all of which are easily enforced with fines) has shaped the state of play.

Tl;dr the problem is larger than p platers, of course, but the real problem is that most p platers will follow the example of other road users and those who teach them.

[oztruckdriver]

I think that you suggestion, although doubling the cost of gaining ones privilage to drive on Australian roads is the greatest idea I have ever heard, bring'm back in after 6, 9 or 12 months restest them and if they fail they get to live in there reduced "P's" for another year. No of us were perfect in our younger days, I am self taught throwing an old Falcon ute around the clay pans out at the Lucas heights reactor, had a ball, did some damage, never hurt anyone but every one in our group could drive by the time we left school.
May I please point out one fact that is coming across very strongly here, cars don't kill but the person behind the wheel with the wrong attitude does. When I went for my B Double licence not only was I tested on my ability to drive one but the compnay employing us put us through an "APPITUDE" test to see that we had the correct "ATTITUDE" to deal with the other drivers around us.

[loanrangie]

I agree its the driver and not the car but modern buzz boxes handle and accelerate far better than any LJ Torry or TD cortina and i believe its too easy for them to just plant the foot at every opportunity , even an old ****box commodore outguns pretty much everything that was affordable when i started out driving.

[Slunnie]

I think that you're doing a good job Treads.

[Ausfree]

I don't know about anybody else on this Thread, but I would not be a police officer at all. Far too risky an occupation, as a high way patrol officer you have to pull over people who have done stupid things and deal with the outcome. I could not imagine anything worse than pulling over a speeding motorist of a night time and walking up to the vehicle not knowing what sort of a reception you are going to get!! Have a look at this example that happened in the Lake Macquarie area yesterday, it is lucky the criminals were not using a large calibre weapon, or we might be reading of the death of yet another police officer today.!!;)

VIDEO: Manhunt for shooter who fired at police | Newcastle Herald (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1206490/video-manhunt-for-shooter-who-fired-at-police/?cs=305)

Don't forget the recent deaths of...

Inspector Bryson Anderson
Snr Const David Rixon.

Now Const. Rixon was only pulling over a vehicle for a random check in the Tamworth area ,when he was killed by the occupant of that car.

By the way, I am not a police officer, but I am on the road all the time and I do see people do stupid things on a daily basis!!:o


Speaking of stupid things, have a look at this idiot. Happened in Melbourne a couple of days ago.:angrylock:

Driver snapped hanging feet out window (http://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/latest/a/-/newshome/15710925/driver-snapped-hanging-feet-out-window/)

Fair dinkum, is this guy a goose or what!!!

[V8Ian]

The fact of the matter is that discretion is used .
There was a lot of discretion used pre-Fitzgerald days in Queensland. :eek:

I'm not sure how a thread about driving standards degenerates into a cop slagging match, but under the blue shirt they're no different to any other occupation. I know seven retired or serving guys/gal who have totally different personalities, life experiences and opinions on many things which must define largely how they perform their duties. Like the other occupations there are a number of ways to achieve a particular result, all can be different but right.
Coppering must be a damned hard job, everyone knows how it should be done, but not many can actually do it.
I've driven professionally for almost forty years, served twenty-five years in the SES and socialised with the aforementioned. For a non-copper/non-crim I've had quite a bit of interaction with law enforcement, which has proven to me that in blue you get the odd DH, a few outstanding people and a lot of decent hardworking people.
Hey, I just described any occupation or community. :cool:

[dullbird]

This thread has been closed at request of the Thread starter.