Engine System Fault (Critical) caused by known software issue

[ozranga]

MY2010 Disco 4 SDV6 SE with 50k on the clock.

Driving in 43 degree heat up to Barmera from McLaren Vale through Monarto, Sedan etc. Had my 79 YO mother in the car too. Anyway, the engine suddenly lost a lot of power and the message "Engine System Fault" appeared on the dash with the red warning indicator. I rang LR Assist and she said the car was in limp mode and I should go to the nearest LR Service centre which was behind me. She did say I would probably be fine to complete the drive to Barmera and return after Christmas as the warning light was amber... and luckily when I corrected her to say the light was red the phone reception dropped out. I say luckily because I got to Barmera with no problems albeit without a lot of engine power. It was ok on the flat where I could go at 110 but any slight incline and the car began to slow. Thank goodness I was not towing a van/boat or even worse be in the middle of a national park in sand!

Anyway, on reaching Barmera I rang LR assist to make sure it was ok to drive back to Adelaide in a few days and the girl said she would send a flatbed truck up and bring the car back, and also give me a hire car for 5 days. All wonderful service!

But here is the rub... when I spoke to the service guy and he said the problem was fixed and was just a firmware update to fix a known software issue I thought what a complete waste of money and time, not to mention just plain dangerous. Why has there not been some kind of recall to fix this? If anyone is going away for their holidays and especially towing something I would contact LR to find out more about this bug, why/when it occurs etc. Also, one would hope as cars come in for regular servicing that these firmware updates are being made.... but who would know? I really would have expected something in the mail.

[SBD4]

Thanks for the info mate, do you have any details on the update? A decription on the invoice or something - It would help when querying the dealer.

[scarry]

Also, one would hope as cars come in for regular servicing that these firmware updates are being made.... but who would know? I really would have expected something in the mail.

X2

This would save heaps of customer pain,also this kind of thing,when it happens gives LR a bad name.:(

I was over 1000k's from the nearest dealer when mine first started coming up with 'smart key not found',vehicle would not start.Luckily it seemed to sort itself out for the rest of the trip.The dealer sorted it out at a later date,another 'known fault'.

Many people with these vehicles travel to remote areas,the last thing anyone wants is a breakdown due to some stupid software problem.

Just my 2c worth

[AnD3rew]

LRA has a history of not doing recalls when they should.

My Disco 1 300TDI threw a timing belt three weeks out of warranty and Land Rover tried to dodge it until I discovered through a Land Rover spy friend of mine that it was a known issue with that, batch of vehicles.

I eventually got them to pay up, but when I said why wasn't it a recall they said it wasn't a safety issue, this nearly made me go postal as when the belt let go it locked all four wheels and brought the car to a screaming halt with oil and bits of engine running down the road. This was a day after completing a trip from Melbourne to Brisbane with my family in the car, can you imagine what would have happened if the belt had let go while overtaking a B Double?

[101RRS]

I doubt the OP issue would warrant a 'Recall" - more of a software update to do at the next service.

Garry

[Barryp]

Hi Scarry,
The 'smart key not found' issue is covered in the handbook. I believe it happens if you try to start it with the smartkey out of range of the receiver.
Read the handbook and it tells you to hold the smart key in the recess under the steering column and press start. I had it happen to mine but remembered reading about the fix in the handbook. I think that it is part of the theft prevention arrangements. (Just think if you leave the door open in a servo and somebody could jump in and drive off if it wasn't programmed this way.)
Regards
Barryp

[scarry]

Hi Scarry,
The 'smart key not found' issue is covered in the handbook. I believe it happens if you try to start it with the smartkey out of range of the receiver.
Read the handbook and it tells you to hold the smart key in the recess under the steering column and press start. I had it happen to mine but remembered reading about the fix in the handbook. I think that it is part of the theft prevention arrangements. (Just think if you leave the door open in a servo and somebody could jump in and drive off if it wasn't programmed this way.)
Regards
Barryp

Read that hand book a number of times when that 'smart key not found' came up,as you would in a remote area.It would not start with the fob thing held under the steering column or anywhere else in the car:mad:

After 20 minutes or so it would eventually start.Sometimes it would start immediately,it played up intermittently.

As said,the vehicle had a fault,needed a software upgrade,the dealer new of the issue as soon as i rang them.

The same message does appear when the key is out of range,as said.

Dunno what the smart key is all about,a normal key would do me.

[Barryp]

H Scarry,
I agree, give me a standard key anyday.
Its a pain in the neck if I get out of the car with the engine running and it throws a tizzy fit the next time you go to start it.
Same designer as the electronic oil quantity system, technology for technologies sake with no real world benefit and a few minuses!
Unfortunately most cars are going this way.
Regards
Barryp

[scarry]

technology for technologies sake with no real world benefit and a few minuses!
Unfortunately most cars are going this way.
Regards
Barryp

Exactly,this is a real PITA.

And the other issue is that you cannot get a base spec vehicle with out all this stuff.The manufacturers want it the easy way,you get this and this,that is it.

As i have said before,the D4 has moved way out of it's class of a family wagon.

The more complicated it is,the more chance there are of things going wrong.

Moving ahead they seem to call it:confused:

But don't get me wrong,the vehicle is fantastic and in a class of its own.:)

[ozranga]

Invoice comment says:
"Checked DTC's & found injector fault caused by software corruption. Updated PCM. Road tested & no faults found."

Just some further info - I had noticed in recent times that it had not been starting the first time. i.e. foot on brake, push start button and the message "System check in progress..." appeared but the engine did not start. I would release start button and then press again and started ok. Since the firmware update the engine is back to starting first time. So maybe the two are related...

[Graeme]

The 2 would only be related in that the latest ecm s/w contains fixes to both problems, along with probably a host of other fixes and improvements.

[OzAd4x4]

I had this issue with my D4 also, but only when using my wife's spare key fob - turned out to be a low transmitter battery, battery replaced ($18) and haven't seen the error since!

My current 'error of the month' which occurs approx once a month is a 'Low coolant warning' which is there one minute and then gone for another month :)



Hi Scarry,
The 'smart key not found' issue is covered in the handbook. I believe it happens if you try to start it with the smartkey out of range of the receiver.
Read the handbook and it tells you to hold the smart key in the recess under the steering column and press start. I had it happen to mine but remembered reading about the fix in the handbook. I think that it is part of the theft prevention arrangements. (Just think if you leave the door open in a servo and somebody could jump in and drive off if it wasn't programmed this way.)
Regards
Barryp

[JPI]

MY2010 Disco 4 SDV6 SE with 50k on the clock.

Driving in 43 degree heat up to Barmera from McLaren Vale through Monarto, Sedan etc. Had my 79 YO mother in the car too. Anyway, the engine suddenly lost a lot of power and the message "Engine System Fault" appeared on the dash with the red warning indicator. I rang LR Assist and she said the car was in limp mode and I should go to the nearest LR Service centre which was behind me. She did say I would probably be fine to complete the drive to Barmera and return after Christmas as the warning light was amber... and luckily when I corrected her to say the light was red the phone reception dropped out. I say luckily because I got to Barmera with no problems albeit without a lot of engine power. It was ok on the flat where I could go at 110 but any slight incline and the car began to slow. Thank goodness I was not towing a van/boat or even worse be in the middle of a national park in sand!

Anyway, on reaching Barmera I rang LR assist to make sure it was ok to drive back to Adelaide in a few days and the girl said she would send a flatbed truck up and bring the car back, and also give me a hire car for 5 days. All wonderful service!

But here is the rub... when I spoke to the service guy and he said the problem was fixed and was just a firmware update to fix a known software issue I thought what a complete waste of money and time, not to mention just plain dangerous. Why has there not been some kind of recall to fix this? If anyone is going away for their holidays and especially towing something I would contact LR to find out more about this bug, why/when it occurs etc. Also, one would hope as cars come in for regular servicing that these firmware updates are being made.... but who would know? I really would have expected something in the mail.
Hi Ozranga,
I had the same issue, and its related to towing up a hill with the cruise control on. Basically there is a bug in the Engine Management that causes it to think there is an issue and trip into limp home mode. There is a simple software update for this and it will be applied to all 3.0 TdV6 engines when they come in for their next service. I do agree that a general recall would be a better idea, but it seems that software bugs are so common in cars these days they don't treat them seriously.

[outasight]

Well my D4 3.0 is currently at a tow yard & I'm here too in the caravan it was towing till tomorrow when the car goes to a dealer in Newcastle. Same sounding issues, I was towing, there are/were hills & I was using cruise, when Red Triangle comes on & car goes into limp mode - would not reset at all ... Just had 50k service done where they knew I was going to be towing this week ... has had previous services done too where they also knew I was towing a caravan :mad:

[Graeme]

Outasight, what sort of engine revs were generally occuring prior to the fault? Also, can you ask what fault codes are involved? I'd like to know if there's any similarity with the faults mine gets from time to time that don't clear without a tool and even then can be hard to clear.

[OffTrack]

Are you aware that all LR Service Action Bulletins and Technical Bulletins are available on TOPIx - TOPIx (http://topix.landrover.jlrext.com) ? You need to subscribe to get access to the content. You can buy 1 hour and 1 day subscriptions to the diagnostics section only and these are pretty reasonably priced. You can also browse the various sections to see what bulletins exist without a subscription.

cheers
Paul

[outasight]

Sorry Graeme, didn't see this until just now - I'm on the road!

I didn't get the codes, but the tech said it was complaining about something to do with the injectors, but either due to the info I gave them about the fault, or their own info, they applied a PCM update which should fix the issue.

Sounds too similar to everyone else's experience with this issue. Couldn't tell you exact revs except to say they would have been quite low as the cruise refuses to kick the transmission down to try & maintain speed on an uphill. I went from 110kph to around 80kmh more than once :(

Paul(Offtrack), I appreciate it's all good info IF someone out there wants to do this, but it's only as up to date as the last time you looked/subscribed & really, is it OUR job to know these things when there is an obvious issue that will, I say the word again, obviously affect a large number of this vehicle, given it's common use(towing).

It's dissapointing that a premium brand will cost itself dollars & let it's customers suffer all the inconvenience etc. when it just isn't neccessary! Proactively apply the software fix as a "Service Campaign" - my car was serviced just 2 weeks ago.

Regards,

Les.

[outasight]

Hi Ozranga,
I had the same issue, and its related to towing up a hill with the cruise control on. Basically there is a bug in the Engine Management that causes it to think there is an issue and trip into limp home mode. There is a simple software update for this and it will be applied to all 3.0 TdV6 engines when they come in for their next service. I do agree that a general recall would be a better idea, but it seems that software bugs are so common in cars these days they don't treat them seriously.

The only bit that hasn't happened yet is the automatic application - unless it was just MISSED by my local dealer at the last service 2 weeks ago :mad:

All the rest matched what happened to me too ...

Les.

[Graeme]

Sorry Graeme, didn't see this until just now - I'm on the road!

I didn't get the codes, but the tech said it was complaining about something to do with the injectors, but either due to the info I gave them about the fault, or their own info, they applied a PCM update which should fix the issue.Thanks but obviously not the same problem that my vehicle experiences as mine relate to MAF, MAP and turbo inconsistancies.

I've been told that all updates are downloaded by default when the vehicle is connected to LR diagnostics so I suspect your vehicle wasn't connected during your last service or updates were declined for some reason.

[CSBrisie]

Stupid bloody cruise control! And a million thanks to the forum and the likes of Haggis for saving our Easter Holiday!! Last time (Late 2010) we weren't so lucky with the now infamous cruise control use/heavy towing/up hill "system failure" leading to a miserable end to our holiday (but at least it was 40k's from Adelaide and after a great holiday in the VHC (car had 7000km on it then, now 40000). We 'obeyed' LR assist and waited for a flat bed truck rescue and thank God it hadn't happened in the High Country itself.

Since then I have learnt how to do a Hard reset of the computer and clear the fault (although assumed the problem had been fixed in 2010). At 2pm on Easter Saturday, towing a 21 foot van, I momentarily used the cruise control - before remembering that was not wise, but alas too late....). on a long straight section of road about 60km"s south of Gladstone; we lost power, red triangle, engine system fault etc etc.

Suffice to say SWMBO was ready to dump the D4 and buy anything other than a LR as we realized what this meant for our Easter break.

This time, however, we pulled over and I cleared the fault,(battery terminals pos to neg etc) full power returned, and we have continued to enjoy our holiday to Airlie Beach trouble free where I type this now.

To be blunt - without the knowledge I have gained from this forum, Saturday avo would have finished with the D4 on a flat bed; the van (hired) who knows where, wife and kids devastated (not sure where the Easter egg hunt would have been held!), the D4 on the market I suspect and terrible memories.

Instead, we cruised into Gladstone, the Bunny visited generously (!), the holiday has been bliss and full of life long memories and the D4 has towed superbly.

So, I Really hope Landrover fix their bloody software issues - and I pity those families who holidays end in disaster on the side of a road because they hadn't read this forum and learnt they could actually fix the problem in a few minutes and continue on their way.

Thanks again to those who post solutions to problems on here - I for one am eternally greatful.

Oh yes the red triangle is on the dash still and I have no doubt some who read this will suggest we should have cancelled the holiday and sent the car to Bundaberg as LR assist wanted. Yeah sure - try telling that to my better half

[Graeme]

Good that you found a work-around and that you didn't bow to LR's notion that one can just stop whatever you're doing and get the vehicle off to a dealer. I'll do almost anything to avoid such actions but I do carry a Faultmate.

Do you know when the vehicle had its last software update done? Mine was updated in Oct last year and if BBS is up to date with their listing of LR-released software versions, no later ecm software version has since been released.

[CSBrisie]

Will find out next week - but car serviced at Australs last week .......

[outasight]

Well - I don't think Stornoway SA has realised it yet - & I just have, that he & I are EXACTLY opposite one another in the Airlie Beach Big4 CP!!! We were laughing at the Disco's being nose to nose 2 nights back when we arrived as it was pretty tight backing our van in here! Wait till they see this or I see them!

I have been using cruise again, as I was told there should be no further problems, and there hasn't been. It does actually go up hills much better than it used to as well, not losing anywhere near the amount of speed it did before ...

Regards,

Les.

[Graeme]

I have been using cruise again, as I was told there should be no further problems, and there hasn't been. It does actually go up hills much better than it used to as well, not losing anywhere near the amount of speed it did before ...Its good to know that the problem has been fixed.

I'd like to know the ecm s/w level for the fixed version to know if mine is OK or needs updating.

[outasight]

Its good to know that the problem has been fixed.

I'd like to know the ecm s/w level for the fixed version to know if mine is OK or needs updating.

I wouldn't say 100% fixed yet Graeme, jury will need to sit for quite some time on that yet. Mine towed with cruise for many km's before this happened, so will be hard to call it fixed for sure.

The #1 thing learnt by Chris(Stornaway SA) & now myself having read it here, and Chris having now done this, is that a HARD reset(disconnected battery leads together), allowed continued driving without the horrible limp mode. Of course this would only be if you knew that it was towing in hills with CC on that triggers limp mode.

ps. Had a beer & chat tonight with Chris here in Airlie Beach & checked out all the goodies his D4 HSE has on board ;)

Regards,

Les.

[CSBrisie]

Great to meet a fellow forum member in person and share a beer!:D Enjoy the rest of the trip Les,
cheers

Chris

Must get the "SA": changed to QLD!!

[CSBrisie]

Took the D4 to Austral's yesterday;

Fault cleared - Australs Service Tax invoice notes:

"inspected and found fault logged relating to Bulletin. Carried out software update to Powertrain Control Module and tested OK; Customer to Monitor" :eek:

Perhaps LR could issue owners with a Faultmate so we could "carry on" when stranded and "monitor" as they request...:cool:

Oh, I have same narration from late 2010;

and finally....car was serviced week befeore we left...no software update done then I gather....:confused:

cheers

[scarry]

What they probably mean is we don't really know what is wrong,we will give it a software up date and hopefully with a bit of luck it is fixed.

Mine is going to Austral next week for another go at fixing the 'can't find the smart key ' messsage that regularly appears and then disappears.

Another 'software update':confused:

[outasight]

Hmmm Chris,

Sounds like a match for the "PCM software patch" the techo told me at the Newcastle dealers.

I only just got home Friday midnight, and no surprise to see they didn't post me a copy of the service report as they said they would :mad:

I drove everywhere the last 4 weeks with cruise control whenever it was safe(and what you would normally consider practical) - hills or not. No further issues so far, and definitely the car maintains either more speed than before on big hills, or totally holds speed where it may have lost a bit on smaller ones towing. The overshoot after cresting a hill towing is still there, but that's 100% understandable & acceptable.

On a separate note, I also managed to ****ter the tailgate window on the rediculous Queensland roadworks :( My fault I guess for not slowing enough & the new General Grabber AT's may have had a part too I suspect(stone grabbers ;) ) ...

Les.

[outasight]

:D at the s h a t t e r being ****ed out :angel:

[CSBrisie]

Les

get yourself an Obies!

Rear Window Saver Page (http://www.obiesoutback.com.au/obie1.htm)

Works a treat (they are see through/clear - for some reason on the web page they show it with the shipping (white) protective coating still on (their D3), which ofcourse you peel off)

cheers