why dont they use rail?

[incisor]

why dont they use rail?

Hume Highway could see B-triple trucks - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-30/hume-highway-could-see-b-triple-trucks/4447458)

[camel_landy]

Indeed... It reminds me of the time Thatcher suggested building special roads purely for freight traffic, then someone pointed out that's exactly what we've already got.

..It's called a railway!!

M

[Sprint]

cost.....

[87County]

Unfortunately because the big businesses that now run the freight rail networks are doing quite well, doing what they are doing, thankyou, therefore they are not set up to be bothered with general freight.

As well, there is huge and growing investment in the major trucking companies so, as with all big business anywhere, they'll get what they want as well.

The state of our nation's infrastructure for bulk freight is marginal anyway.

[101RRS]

I live near the Hume and travel on it a bit - there are too many drivers - car and truck with eyes like this :eek: but most vehicles are B doubles - it is bad enough with B doubles with drivers like :eek: let alone B triples.

While the current rail tracks and overhead bridges cannot handle large amount of cargo there really needs to be dedicated cargo rail between the main centres (Bris, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide). These should be also able to carry the semis, B doubles, and now B triples where it is not economic the transfer cargo at the end of the rail run - this happens in Europe and seems to work OK.

Garry

[p38arover]

A few years ago, when I was a signaller on the Blue Mountains line, I remember seeing regular freight trains from Perth to Sydney. The train consisted of the trailers from semis that were fitted with rail bogies for the trip. When they arrived, they were quickly disconnected, hooked to a prime mover and driven away.

See Roadrailer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no idea why that stopped but you can imagine how many trucks that took off the road.

We used to have several petrol trains a week from Sydney to western NSW. Surely that was better than having all those trucks?

[cewilson]

I wouldn't have an issue piloting a B triple on the Hume. Hell it's easier than heading up north. BUT come holiday time I wouldn't want to be near the place when all the idiots get on the roads.....


As for our train infrastructure - it couldn't get anywhere near handling the amount of freight that trucks move every day.

[cewilson]

A few years ago, when I was a signaller on the Blue Mountains line, I remember seeing regular freight trains from Perth to Sydney. The train consisted of the trailers from semis that were fitted with rail bogies for the trip. When they arrived, they were quickly disconnected, hooked to a prime mover and driven away.

I have no idea why that stopped but you can imagine how many trucks that took off the road.

We used to have several petrol trains a week from Sydney to western NSW. Surely that was better than having all those trucks?




I think you've hit the nail on the head. Every truck you take a road is either 1 or 2 people now unemployed. In the background there is also all of the logistics personnel, mechanics etc etc.

[ozy013]

have a safe and happy new year

[Mick_Marsh]

They're using them here in Melbourne/Victoria already. Have been for some time.


have a safe and happy new year
And a very safe one to you ozy013.

[87County]

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Every truck you take a road is either 1 or 2 people now unemployed. In the background there is also all of the logistics personnel, mechanics etc etc.


In very general terms,

the load capacity of 1 flat bed rail wagon = 4 semis, or 2 b-doubles or 1 b-triple (GML)

[MichaelJR]

Not sure what difference a dual carriageway will make as there are already too many accidents on the existing dual carriageway around Yass.

[87County]

.



...and if you put to much stuff on a flat bed this happens :o


... but I dunno what happens to a b-triple in similar circumstances


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/117.jpg



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/118.jpg



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/119.jpg

[CraigE]

Rail should be used more, but as most of the general rail network infrastructure is owned by the govt and leased to private enterprise, govts do not want to invest in infrastructure upgrades and most private companies can not afford to with general freight rates. Others that are private owned like mining rail infrastructure are not keen to allow private freight or trains on their networks.
You think B doubles are bad, get on the Great Northern Hwy where it is just a constant stream of heavy triple road trains, longer than triple B doubles. Also certain areas of WA are now allowed to run quad road trains at 50 metres long. Try passing one of these in a tdi 300:o When these were introduced and trialed about 8 years ago, public submission was called for and I made a submission regarding use in the Goldfields of WA outlining my concerns. It was only one of 6 submissions made, yet was widely advertised and also I told everyone I could. Yet people complained after it was introduced but did not have their say when they should have. My main issues where these 50 metre long quads being used between Norseman, Kambalda, Kalgoorlie and Kalgoorlie where there were limited overtaking areas for average low powered cars, these quads being hauled by under powered prime movers that were only designed to haul singles or doubles, Cars travelling at 100 - 110 kmph coming over hills and around bends to find these trucks struggling with road speed and travelling from as low as 20 - 60 kmph. Was just a matter of time for further incidents and fatalities (and yes these did occur). Also there was a tendency to overload. The roads were also damaged badly during hot weather.
It is all driven by profit margins, not by public safety.
If you have a chance to have a say and lodge a submission, do so, even though they will probably ignore it. At least then you cannot be accused of apathy.
CraigE

[CraigE]

Yep, stuff like that happens, but how many truck accidents happen a day? Far more than rail, though have seen some significant rail incidents. Even though I only worked rail for a short time, saw a few in this time and still see a lot as have many friends that work rail. These type of incidents rarely happen on mining networks as the rail infrastructure is looked after a lot better than the public network. The biggest issue is erosion (subsidence) or tracks walking due to heat or cold. Not against trucks at all, but lets limit the length on our roads and have companies show some intelligence on freight times and penalties. Coles and Woolworths are the worst for imposing penalties for late arrivals.


.



...and if you put to much stuff on a flat bed this happens :o


... but I dunno what happens to a b-triple in similar circumstances


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/117.jpg



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/118.jpg



https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2012/12/119.jpg

[101RRS]

Coles and Woolworths are the worst for imposing penalties for late arrivals.

Truckies have never been backward in demonstrating and blockading to make their point hence I am surprised that the trucking industry has not taken Coles and Woollies to task on this practice - eg if penalised the goods are not delivered. I think they would actually have Government support on this one but they do not have the courage to take on Woolies and Coles by themselves.

Garry

[JDNSW]

There are several problems with using rail - probably the most intractable is that everything that goes on rail has to be (usually) transhipped twice - from origin to rail, from rail to destination, and that there are several sections of the rail network that are operating close to saturation, especially in the Sydney and Melbourne metropolitan areas. Upgrading the tracks in these areas is almost prohibitively expensive due to the cost of real estate.

Road transport is more fault tolerant - failure of any part of the infrastructure or industrial action anywhere can usually be routed round, unlike rail.

As for B-triples on the Hume - seems to me to be less of a problem than B-doubles on two lane undivided roads with few overtaking lanes and heavy traffic, such as the Newell Highway.

John

[Reads90]

We use Queensland rail for stuff to go from Brisbane to the north.



BUT very rarely as they are the most useless un professional bunch if idiots I ever have the misfortune to deal with.

In the summer if it looks like it is going to rain in the next few weeks they will not even load it in Brisbane and therefore leave it on the rail side but not tell you until your customer starts shouting as to where it is. Noting is urgent with them and customer serivice is crap. You phone them and asked them where something is and they just almost shrug their shoulds and say calm down it will be there when it gets there.

Only really use then if we have to as a last resort and only them in the winter months.

We use trucks to take it up to Carins and all the towns between here and there and all over Qld.

And you wonder why we don't use rail, well because we want to keep our customers and get stuff delivered. And by the way trucks are cheaper than rail most of the time too.

[oztruckdriver]

why dont they use rail?

Hume Highway could see B-triple trucks - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-30/hume-highway-could-see-b-triple-trucks/4447458)

Plain and simple , , , , Sir Peter Able had it all worked out , , , train leaves Sydney with a1,000 ton and arrives Melbourne 3 hours later, , , turn around was 3 hours, , , train leaves Melbourne with a thiousand ton and arrives Sydney 3 hours later, , , , WHY DIDN'T IT GET UP, , , , the green'ies said it was ENVIROMENTALLY damaging, , , . would cause to much disruption along the rail corridor and scare the wild life away, , , , the greenies wanted a 1.6 to 3 kilometre "SAFE" zone each side of the rail line, , , , does this sound familiar !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[p38arover]

Agreed about transhipping. That's why the road-railer looked good, especially on long haul like Perth-Sydney.

Another problem is the passenger network has priority. I couldn't count the number of times I've had to put non-passenger services away into a loop to allow passenger services to run. Owing to the fact that a many loops/sidings have been removed or taken out of service and those that are left are too short for long trains, there are few places available to do this.

This means that all too often, if the freight arrives at the wrong time, it might be held in a loop for several hours until it can get a run.

[mark_coffey]

Unfortunately the road railer idea never really lasted due to the reduced capacity of each trailer, mainly due to the strengthened chassis required for rail use, also consider the articulation points, one under the rear of the chassis and one extending 600-900mm past the front of the trailer.
We had a depot for the road railers here in Whyalla, wasn't supported enough to expand the concept.
There was a level crossing incident that highlighted a severe issue, there at the time, was no coupling on the rear of the train, couldn't recover the train backwards!
Of late the SCT trains have been getting bigger due to the increase of less than container load freight on the East-West route as there was only interest in container loads on the main carriers.
I believe even the Americans have gone away from road railers, that is where the designs come from.
Yes I firmly believe there is way too much trucked freight on the roads, you only have to sit in Port Augusta and count the road loads and compare to rail loads, you can see why the highway is in a permanant state of decay.
Short sightedness in the ripping up of the rail infrastructure as fast as it could be done has left this state vulnerable to bottleneck for rail, the main route north out of Adelaide was built as a branch line for 600T trains at 30mph, not 3500T at 100kph!
If our governments had any backbone there should be some concerted effort at rerouting freight and upgrading trackage, including freight dedicated routes through our cities, not this you have only in the wee hours trackage rights.

[Ean Austral]

When the Ghan started back up to run from Darwin to Adelaide, the big sell was that it would take majority of the road trains off the road, and most freight companies signed up. Between the delays and the continual price increases I think that there is likely more road trains than ever leaving Darwin now.

Think it more comes down to slack attitude by the rail operators and a unrealistic price structure just making general freight by rail out of reach.

I see even the fuel trucks are back on the road again, running 3.5 trailers so I guess even they think its to expensive.

My 2c worth.

Cheers Ean

[V8Ian]

why dont they use rail?

Because most consignors want the freight delivered on time, intact; two concepts that rail seem to struggle with.

[Disco44]

We use Queensland rail for stuff to go from Brisbane to the north.



BUT very rarely as they are the most useless un professional bunch if idiots I ever have the misfortune to deal with.

In the summer if it looks like it is going to rain in the next few weeks they will not even load it in Brisbane and therefore leave it on the rail side but not tell you until your customer starts shouting as to where it is. Noting is urgent with them and customer serivice is crap. You phone them and asked them where something is and they just almost shrug their shoulds and say calm down it will be there when it gets there.

Only really use then if we have to as a last resort and only them in the winter months.

We use trucks to take it up to Carins and all the towns between here and there and all over Qld.

And you wonder why we don't use rail, well because we want to keep our customers and get stuff delivered. And by the way trucks are cheaper than rail most of the time too.

Yeh mate they need a good kick in the ****.They are only interested in coal,not general freight and most of that going north is handled by Pacific National.QR National or whatever they call themselves now lost that contract years ago.

[isuzutoo-eh]

There should be something smaller than a 20' ISO container, similar to the old 'LCL' (Less than Car Load) containers run by the NSWGR and SAR in the '70s. Small enough for a 3 tonne truck to take from distribution centre to destination without having to handle pallets from a container into the truck.

[tony66_au]

I traveled to Sydney a few years ago via the XPT "High speed" train....

And I reckon I know why rail freight isnt an option :-)

The rail network has been left to rot and varies from state to state to the point where it would be prohibitive to repair and maintain to any high standard.

With road freight the cost and onus for transport is with the truckies, roads funded by rego levy, state and federal funding.

And even the roads vary once you cross a border and some times very noticeably.

As for accidents and drivers?

Both sides of the fence need a kick in the clacker, and I ran the Hume for 2 years Melb/Syd.

Rail freight is a nice idea but logistically it doesn't work, many companies now run on "Just in time" logistics and that too wont work or even come close with rail freight.

And with political and green agenda's in play it gets very murky both now and in the future.

Years ago too we had major rail freight truck terminals for transfer and these are now gone and the yards sold off and developed for housing etc never to be reclaimed which means new yards and terminals but where do we build them?

The heyday of rail freight was 30 plus years ago and I remember Dynon road Yards covering a huge area between the docks (Now gone and developed), Footscray road (Also developed) through to Dynon road west Melb and this is all gone/dismantled/developed.

Now add the freight centers that are no where near Rail infrastructure and the triple or quadruple handling needed to use rail freight and everything we buy in the shops on a day to day basis would skyrocket in price.

Sure its a nice idea, But its just not feasible.

So Truckies will continue to carry this country of ours.

BTW B triples have been a part of Victorian roads for a while, they tootle past my front door at night delivering milk, Heavy transport is a fact of life where I am and Singles, Doubles or Triples have never posed an issue to me or my safety.

Idiots in Tipper and dogs however are a different story.

[BMKal]

BTW B triples have been a part of Victorian roads for a while, they tootle past my front door at night delivering milk, Heavy transport is a fact of life where I am and Singles, Doubles or Triples have never posed an issue to me or my safety.

Idiots in Tipper and dogs however are a different story.

Spot on mate. Generally speaking, the biggest idiots on the roads drive the smallest trucks - the "wannabe truckies".

Rail freight is now geared almost entirely toward "bulk" commodities with little or no provision for general freight or consumables.

B - triples are small fry and nothing new. We share the roads over here with full size triple road trains in mst areas of the state, and as Craig has already pointed out, full size quad road trains on some roads in the area on a daily basis. I've never had a problem with any of them. Have to admit though, it's sometimes amusing to watch obvious "city" drivers trying to overtake these things. What is needed is an education campaign to educate city drivers on how to handle the type of traffic you encounter when you get away from the traffic lights and roundabouts.

If you reckon B - triples are bad, try driving up the Great Northern Hwy from Perth where there is now a constant flow of large oversize loads on the move (although none just at the moment during the Christmas / New Year curfew). Many of these things take up the full width of the highway and then some. Watching "city" drivers try to overtake these things is amusing to say the least - yet they are very easy to get around if you know how the system works (and it's even easier if you have a radio tuned in to Channel 40).

Never ceases to amaze me the number of muppets driving up the road with instructions to call them up on Channel 10 or 18 or 23 or whatever stuck on the back of their vehicle (especially caravans). Do they honestly think that anyone else is going to change channels just to call them up. :eek:

Other than certain roads where alternative (usually clearly signposted) radio channels are used - the highway frequency is Channel 40. If you use something else, don't be surprised when you don't know what's going on around you, or if it takes a bit longer to get around a wide load. Yes I know - the language can be a bit rich there sometimes - but I've found that's usually around the capital cities and major regional centres (including Kalgoorlie sometimes) and is often timed around school holidays, weekends or when the kids get out of school during the week. I always turn the radio off as I go over the hill down into Perth - don't need it down there.

I feel for the road train drivers on the Gt Northern Hwy at the moment, who have to reguarly find a spot, often at short notice because a lot of the front pilots are idiots and sit too close to the load, and pull off the road to allow the fat ones to pass. Easy enough to do in a car - but try doing this in a triple road train which often weighs significantly more all up than the wide load that they are giving way to. And then try doing it t least 20 times a day.

I've sat at Capricorn Roadhouse for a couple of hours waiting to catch a plane from Newman airport just up the road - and the number of oversize loads passing through that place is simply mind-numbing. I've travelled in to Newman on the relatively short (2 hour) drive from Nullagine (not even on the main highway) and passed up to 12 oversize loads in that short distance.

So the fact that they're about to introduce "B - triples" on a couple of major roads over east somewhere doesn't really bother me. Hell, they've even said that they're not going to do it until the entire road is double lane dual carriageway. If you can't handle B - triples on roads like that - then you really should be questioning whether you should be on the roads at all. ;)

[1976_michelle]

Dont much care I guess as long as I'm not trapped behind them if they're dawdling (or they not up my tailpipe if I'm not going quick enough for them lol) so if they wait till its all double lanes then there should not be an issue

[Lotz-A-Landies]

At the moment a load on a truck can get from the vendor in Melbourne to the Customer in Sydney overnight while freight rail would only get the same load to somewhere on the rail in southern NSW.

Don't be fooled if it were more efficient to use rail, Toll Holdings who also own freight rail would be running more tonnage on the rails. Only when there are road rail interchanges on the outskirts of every major city (like the one being built at Bringelli and soon to be built on the SME site at Moorebank) and high speed freight rail corridors between them will we see a return of freight to rail and then only when the freight is consigned on large freight companies with intermodal capacity. Smaller operators will continue to use road and be price competitive because of lower overheads.

[tony66_au]

My coping strategy BTW when faced with a load that isn't doing 100 k is to sit back, relax and wait.

We also get a few oversize loads heading to the coal or forestry and the Straz is 2 lanes (One each way), twisty and has some steep long pulls with no overtaking lanes.

My regular journey takes 17 mins at 100 ish, behind a slower vehicle be it car or truck it takes 20 - 21 mins and because I always have some time up my sleeve knowing this is a possibility I kick back, relax and work on my right arm tan......

Im also a driver trainer and although this isnt what I do for a living it gives me pause for thought at the sheer amount of bad car drivers around me on and off P plates.

So next time you get stuck? Relax, kick back and watch the show....

Plenty of brown undies moments just waiting to happen on the roads these days and tragic though they may be they are **** funny to watch.

Or maybe im just a grumpy old bugger?

Tony

[Sparksdisco]

My coping strategy BTW when faced with a load that isn't doing 100 k is to sit back, relax and wait.

We also get a few oversize loads heading to the coal or forestry and the Straz is 2 lanes (One each way), twisty and has some steep long pulls with no overtaking lanes.

My regular journey takes 17 mins at 100 ish, behind a slower vehicle be it car or truck it takes 20 - 21 mins and because I always have some time up my sleeve knowing this is a possibility I kick back, relax and work on my right arm tan......

Im also a driver trainer and although this isnt what I do for a living it gives me pause for thought at the sheer amount of bad car drivers around me on and off P plates.

So next time you get stuck? Relax, kick back and watch the show....

Plenty of brown undies moments just waiting to happen on the roads these days and tragic though they may be they are **** funny to watch.

Or maybe im just a grumpy old bugger?

Tony

I dont realy have a problem with that except when there starts to be 2 or three behind you and there is a clear overtaking spot and you still sit behind the truck.
it becomes frustrating seeing that there is clear and safe bit of road to overtake but can't as the first car wont pull out. I never never ever overtake more than 1 vechicle as it is far to dangerous. dont even know if it's legal?

[oztruckdriver]

My coping strategy BTW when faced with a load that isn't doing 100 k is to sit back, relax and wait.

We also get a few oversize loads heading to the coal or forestry and the Straz is 2 lanes (One each way), twisty and has some steep long pulls with no overtaking lanes.

My regular journey takes 17 mins at 100 ish, behind a slower vehicle be it car or truck it takes 20 - 21 mins and because I always have some time up my sleeve knowing this is a possibility I kick back, relax and work on my right arm tan......

Im also a driver trainer and although this isnt what I do for a living it gives me pause for thought at the sheer amount of bad car drivers around me on and off P plates.

So next time you get stuck? Relax, kick back and watch the show....

Plenty of brown undies moments just waiting to happen on the roads these days and tragic though they may be they are **** funny to watch.

Or maybe im just a grumpy old bugger?

Tony

Your not allowed to use that, SWMBO has reserved that for me.
:spudnikbackflip::spudnikbackflip::spudnikbackflip :

[101RRS]

How long is it going to take one B triple to overtake another B triple going up hill at 55kph and the the overtaking vehicle doing 55.01kph. It is bad enough now on the Hume with semis and B doubles trying to overtake each other up hills (I guess it has to be there as even the slowest goes quick down hill) and cars have to sit behind twiddling their thumbs waiting, waiting, waiting.

Maybe a call on the radio to the slower truck to slow just a little to let the faster truck pass would be helpful to other road users.

Garry

[vnx205]

Never ceases to amaze me the number of muppets driving up the road with instructions to call them up on Channel 10 or 18 or 23 or whatever stuck on the back of their vehicle (especially caravans). Do they honestly think that anyone else is going to change channels just to call them up.

I didn't think that they had that information on the back of their caravans or motorhomes as an instruction to advise them on that channel about road conditions.

I thought it was just a friendly invitation for anyone who was interested in a bit of a natter about any topic (except religion and politics of course. :D ) I had assumed that they deliberately chose a different channel so that they could have a discussion about the meaning of life without being interrupted.

However that is merely an assumption on my part because I am not in a position to either offer or accept the invitation.

[BMKal]

I didn't think that they had that information on the back of their caravans or motorhomes as an instruction to advise them on that channel about road conditions.

I thought it was just a friendly invitation for anyone who was interested in a bit of a natter about any topic (except religion and politics of course. :D ) I had assumed that they deliberately chose a different channel so that they could have a discussion about the meaning of life without being interrupted.

However that is merely an assumption on my part because I am not in a position to either offer or accept the invitation.

No problems if that is all they want to use their radio for ........... :)

But I have recently read a thread on another forum where a lot of people were complaining about trucks and other vehicles sitting behind them and not calling them up to let them know that they were about to be overtaken (by semi's / roadtrains etc) even though they had signage on the back of their vehicles (caravans ????) clearly indicating what channel they are on. :o

For starters, if you are doodling along pulling caravan at 70 or 80 km/h and a large truck comes up behind to overtake, he generally won't be sitting behind you close enough to read your "clear" signage - he will take a run up from a bit further back when he can see that the road ahead is clear and by the time that he can read what channel you're on - he's already in the right lane and on his way round.

I've always thought that the main purpose for having a radio in the vehicle was to communicate with other road users when necessary and to listen out for warnings / advice on road conditions - and to do that, you need to be on the same channel that the majority of road users (trucks) are on. I'm not a big believer in using radios in vehicles for a general natter on the weather (or religion or politics of course), when I'm actually supposed to be concentrating on driving the vehicle. I guess that's why I also have absolutely no tolerance for the dickheads that I see all the time driving around with a mobile phone jammed in their ear.

But maybe I'm just strange and I've been doing it wrong all these years. :p

[vnx205]

No problems if that is all they want to use their radio for ........... :)

But I have recently read a thread on another forum where a lot of people were complaining about trucks and other vehicles sitting behind them and not calling them up to let them know that they were about to be overtaken (by semi's / roadtrains etc) even though they had signage on the back of their vehicles (caravans ????) clearly indicating what channel they are on. :o

... ......

But maybe I'm just strange and I've been doing it wrong all these years. :p

Not having been involved, I had just assumed that people were being sensible and safe. I had this mental picture of the passengers filling in the time exchanging gossip with passengers in other vehicles in the same way that travellers often strike up a conversation with strangers around the fire in camping grounds.

Clearly if people are complaining, then my assumptions about how people used their radios or how they expected others to use theirs were a bit wide of the mark. :) It seems I credited some people with having more common sense than they actually have.

In the Series III, even without a radio, i was never caught by surprise by a road train wanting to overtake. I thought that was what mirrors were for. :) In a Series Land Rover, you seem to get used to looking in your mirrors a lot because almost everyone seems to be going faster than you are. :):)

[BMKal]

Know exactly what you mean about checking your mirrors in a Series. I've had a few "slower than average" old girls in my time too. :D

That Defender you've got now with the tray top camper is a nice looking bit of gear. ;)

[UncleHo]

Many years ago long before CB radios,and in the days of my driving heavy (and slow pommie trucks) if the road ahead was clear 2 blinks of the RH indicator to the following vehicle was the GO,if oncoming or blocked ahead,2 blinks of LH indicator,seemed to work OK,but now in the days of NO-COMMON SENSE it is just all about MMM--EEE and B--- everybody else

And rear veiw mirrors are your friend,even when the scallies are running without lights at night!

[V8Ian]

There have been B-triples running from Broadmedows to Geelong for years, it's just that 95% of car drivers haven't noticed.
In Queensland Type 1 roadtrains (double) are being used between Toowoomba and the Port of Brisbane, but so as not to scare the car drivers they have been redesignated as A-doubles. West of Toowoomba they have to display "ROAD TRAIN" signs while the exact same truck east of Toowoomba displays "LONG VEHICLE", same as a B-double. The same applies east of the Newell now.

[tony66_au]

the caravan call channels you see plastered on the backs of Vans is handy for getting them to pull over and out of your way, A quick shout out that theres something dragging and throwing sparks and they are a road obstacle no more :-) Allegedly........

Id be the last bloke to say that all truckies are good drivers, responsible citizens and not off their tits on shakers, Brikkies or shard because I see too many that need a long holiday.

How to fix this? Who knows how but most of the larger companies get their drivers assessed every so often as well as quietly tested for temperament and anger issues which is a great start.

And the change HAS to come from within, it cant be VicRoads or RTA based and a good start would be to have gold class Drivers who get something in return for being professionals.

Maybe a nice set of fluffy truck thongs or a bit more in the pay packet, even a chrissy bonus....

Or a gold license.

[V8Ian]

I feel for the road train drivers on the Gt Northern Hwy at the moment, who have to reguarly find a spot, often at short notice because a lot of the front pilots are idiots and sit too close to the load, and pull off the road to allow the fat ones to pass. Easy enough to do in a car - but try doing this in a triple road train which often weighs significantly more all up than the wide load that they are giving way to. And then try doing it t least 20 times a day.
Kal, I've never driven a Pilot car but I've followed a few. ;) Usually truckies can work in with and around each other very well. Most car drivers , on the other hand, have the attention span of a goldfish. Once the Pilot vehicle's out of sight they forget about the following load, then they've got to pass the extra guide post before they pull off; I wish I had a buck for each time I've been baulked by oncomming cars. You can hear wide ones being called long before you meet them, so it's not as if they pop up out of the blue.

[bob10]

When we first moved to Darwin, we were told road trains have right of way, no ifs, no buts, get off the road. After my first encounter with one passing me, I was happy to oblige, Bob

[cewilson]

Had the same when I was posted to Tindal (Katherine). Funnily enough there's still some people that 'think' they have right of way because it's written down on a piece of paper (law) and they get quite upset about it all.

Can't say I was ever in a hurry to argue with 100ton regardless of who had right of way. The poor bugger has a hard enough time dealing with it all without worrying about me as well.

[V8Ian]

When we first moved to Darwin, we were told road trains have right of way, no ifs, no buts, get off the road. After my first encounter with one passing me, I was happy to oblige, Bob


Had the same when I was posted to Tindal (Katherine). Funnily enough there's still some people that 'think' they have right of way because it's written down on a piece of paper (law) and they get quite upset about it all.

Can't say I was ever in a hurry to argue with 100ton regardless of who had right of way. The poor bugger has a hard enough time dealing with it all without worrying about me as well.
Just a bit of common sense and courtesy from you both, thanks. :)
I can't see why anybody would want to enforce their right to half the black when the result is sixty-two or more truck tyres throwing rocks at you. :eek2:

[Naviguesser]

When we first moved to Darwin, we were told road trains have right of way, no ifs, no buts, get off the road. After my first encounter with one passing me, I was happy to oblige, Bob

Absolutely.

I used to be involved in repairing broken down tourist coaches and driving them back when finished.
First thing I was told in driving up north, give way to the road trains at all times, even if it meant moving off the road entirely.

[bob10]

Just a bit of common sense and courtesy from you both, thanks. :)
I can't see why anybody would want to enforce their right to half the black when the result is sixty-two or more truck tyres throwing rocks at you. :eek2:
Well, the trucks have helped me on more than one occassion, on ch 40, [thats right now with the new 80 channels I think] I have listened in & been given great info about the road ahead. Mind you, some other info needed a broad mind on the part of the Missus :D Bob

[oztruckdriver]

Many years ago long before CB radios,and in the days of my driving heavy (and slow pommie trucks) if the road ahead was clear 2 blinks of the RH indicator to the following vehicle was the GO,if oncoming or blocked ahead,2 blinks of LH indicator,seemed to work OK,but now in the days of NO-COMMON SENSE it is just all about MMM--EEE and B--- everybody else

And rear veiw mirrors are your friend,even when the scallies are running without lights at night!

Canaries with out light, shock horror, does that really happen:eek2:

[George130]

Most the truckies I encounter are good drivers and easily predictable. Every now and then you get the I'm bigger and will run you over types bot not often.

But the shear number of truck crashes around this area is a concern with the B tripples added to the mix. Also the number of trucks clearly not able to stay in one lane over the last 2 months is out right scarey. Every week I play the watch the weave and wait till the vear away while I pass at full song before they weave back. Sometimes that even requires me to use what little sholder there is to make it without being hit. When I had the CB working I have even called on some of them to ask if they were ok or not.

[tony66_au]

there are, like with any profession some tricks of the trade.

I find that younger drivers who haven't quite dropped into their rhythm get a bit ratty around the edges as they get tired and forget age old best practice which is when smooth seamless avoidance techniques get sloppy enough for the general public to start noticing.

As a HV operator you are almost always doing something to avoid a bad situation and the main key to smooth and seamless operation is a simple technique ALL road users should apply called "Forward observation".

The more information you possess about the traffic around you the sooner you can plan your position on the road and the more aware you are of real and potential liabilities so you can avoid them with minimum fuss and bother.

This is what wears us out when driving and its mental acuity that drops off first, long before we actually feel sleepy.

This is why Diet pills, Speed, Meth, energy drinks dont work well with long distance driving regardless of the people who swear by it because it may increase your heart rate, blood pressure and make you feel energetic but it also effects your perception and decision making skills in many and varied ways and none are a match for a well rested head.

Good practise tricks include avoiding carb loading, fried and battered foods, chocolate, soft drinks and excessive coffee and tea.

Drinking water and isotonic sports drinks (Although they can be huge in sugar which is a carb) is a good start, Keeping fruit handy as a between meal snack is a good idea and oranges, mandarins, apples and even pineapple is a great between meal munchie and I used to take huge tubs of home made fruit salad with me on my regular runs.

Id also stop and have meals like schnitzels, Steak, chook (Pref without crumbs or batter) and id order salad or veggies and actually eat the stuff to keep protein up and to balance out the high fibre from fruits.

I also had fresh air in the truck which plays a huge part in keeping you sharp and thats why todays cars and trucks normally switch from recirculated air to fresh after 10 or so mins automatically.

So what I was doing over 20 years ago is now known as a low carb diet which comes in many forms and keeps the Hollywood elite trim and taut, it kept me awake............

I wasn't planning on being a trend setter, I just needed to get an extra trip in every week and didn't want to sleep for a few days when I got home instead of other things I should be doing.

Its not rocket science.

[woody]

Truckies have never been backward in demonstrating and blockading to make their point hence I am surprised that the trucking industry has not taken Coles and Woollies to task on this practice - eg if penalised the goods are not delivered. I think they would actually have Government support on this one but they do not have the courage to take on Woolies and Coles by themselves.

Garry

We had a an unwritten policy in the warehouse that if a load came in too early (taken from the printed consignment note) we would be too busy to unload the trailer until after the recommended travel time, including breaks was up.
Occasionally we would get a cranky driver but most appreciated the down time, especially when they could blame us for it.

Unlike other distribution centres we had a strong work and social ethic and believed what we were doing was protecting our own families and the greater community not some shareholders bonus.

We found that the biggest problem with rail was damages, as we were sending mostly shrink wrapped pallets the shunting and multiple handling was cause for concern.

woody

[frantic]

A lot of people have hit the nail on why rail is used far less for interstate transport; cost, time , storage are the main problems.
Cost may be changed over time as fuel prices rise but looking to u.k/e.u where they pay 50%+ per litre and have similar trucking issues , that will be a long way off unless legislated.
Time could be saved on the east coast by killing 4birds with one stone. A dedicated high speed passenger tgv/maglev Brisbane , Sydney Melbourne allowing dedicated rail for freight. Go look how close tnts main depot is to rail(cosgrove rd Enfield) this would not only speed up freight(bird1) it would reduce the need for a second airport in Sydney (bird2) reduce fuel burnt by both trucks and planes(bird3) and be far safer in the case of an accident, be it by bad loadin/overloading driver or equipment failure(bird4).
If you solve the time issue you solve the storage problem for the companies using just in time.
As to double handling, the same thing happens now with parcel freight companies, load into small pud in city , transfer to b-double to send to next state, unload to either a pud for capital delivery or onto another semi for regional distribution centre then into a pud.(pud= pick up delivery anything from a 1t van to 20ton rigid)
One other thing is that truckies are their own worst enemy now with a large number of owner drivers meaning they cannot afford to protest or strike as they risk losing their contracts and going bust. This has muted the voices that would have been raised about unrealistic schedules.

[p38arover]

As a HV operator you are almost always doing something to avoid a bad situation and the main key to smooth and seamless operation is a simple technique ALL road users should apply called "Forward observation".

The more information you possess about the traffic around you the sooner you can plan your position on the road and the more aware you are of real and potential liabilities so you can avoid them with minimum fuss and bother.



When I was a signaller on the railway, I tried to keep drivers informed of what was happening, especially non-passenger train drivers. If I knew a coal train, for example, was going to be slowed by signals I'd let him know so that he could regulate his speed to avoid having to come to a stand (with the consequent long time to get rolling again). A loaded coalie takes a long time to stop and restart.

I'd also tell passenger train drivers so they could keep pax informed.

However, I'd worked with signallers who would never tell a driver what was happening unless the driver called them.

[Bigbjorn]

We had a an unwritten policy in the warehouse that if a load came in too early (taken from the printed consignment note) we would be too busy to unload the trailer until after the recommended travel time, including breaks was up.
Occasionally we would get a cranky driver but most appreciated the down time, especially when they could blame us for it.

Unlike other distribution centres we had a strong work and social ethic and believed what we were doing was protecting our own families and the greater community not some shareholders bonus.

We found that the biggest problem with rail was damages, as we were sending mostly shrink wrapped pallets the shunting and multiple handling was cause for concern.

woody

When I had line haul trucks one of the things that got right up my nose was the attitude of warehouse staff. They all seem to think that truckies have nothing better to do than wait around their yards. It seemed to me that if one arrived at a warehouse within half an hour of a break time then staff would either studiously ignore you, or just disappear until (often quite some time) after their break. Why they can't get stuck in and make a start on the job then finish after their break is beyond human understanding.

One would often hear an exchange on the company two-way between the despatcher at Marrickville and the truck. Along the lines of-

"where are you?"
"still at Fred's Foundry waiting to unload"
"what! you should have been out of there an hour ago. Smith's Grog are screaming at me about late delivery."
"the lazy ******* (*******@$) here are still standing around scratching their bums"
"I'll 'phone the warehouse manager and get up him"
"already have, just another useless lazy *****"

[Blknight.aus]

Having worked all sides of the argument...

The reason the rail doesnt get used is because it doesnt go where its needed when its needed and realistically almost anywhere with a carpark can be pushed into service as a roadhead if need be. But a train that needs a dedicated rail head infastructure, then you've got the delay of building a whole rail car consignment, getting all the cargo in one place then loading it all up then building up a whole trains worth of rail cars then sending it down the rail (and woe betied you if you try doing that in large scale with passanger cars as well) then undoing it all loading it into trucks to make it to the final point.

Most retailers view the delays that causes as unacceptable and theres also the common misconseption that in the event of any failure in the rail network that even further unacceptable delays will be caused because you cant just back up a train and take the back roads.

In reality it can be faster to load your cargo onto a truck at your depo then kick the truck on up the road to the delivery point.Oon the east coast you can do sydney to melb/bris/canberra as a same day service whereas mostly doing it by train usually incurs a days delay as well as you having to actually think and plan out around what the existing schedule is for the trains, essentially more work and that doesnt fit in with societies current "I want it now, and I dont want to wait or work for it" attitude. Fix that attitude First and you might see a return to cheaper but slower means of freighting which may then garner enough support to see our rail infastructure improved But dont count on that.

Think about this.

Everyone thought that the new improvements for the Sydney was a great thing because it ment that the flights could be faster and cheaper thing was though, no-one wanted to deal with the extra noise of the planes, they didnt want to be under the new flight paths, or to deal with the extra trucks to get the freight to the planes. Look at brisbane, was there any consideration put in place to utilise the rail service that was put in as part of the "Air-Train" service (which is more or less a dismal failure, it costs me less in terms of time and tickets to get from ipswich to the airport if I go by taxi) for freight?

Theres just as many truckers that cause issues for loadies as there are loadies that cause issues for truckies and in a lot of cases theres about a many customers/boses making life difficult for both by trying to penny pinch their way around responsabilities and requirement

[tony66_au]

A lot of people have hit the nail on why rail is used far less for interstate transport; cost, time , storage are the main problems.
Cost may be changed over time as fuel prices rise but looking to u.k/e.u where they pay 50%+ per litre and have similar trucking issues , that will be a long way off unless legislated.
Time could be saved on the east coast by killing 4birds with one stone. A dedicated high speed passenger tgv/maglev Brisbane , Sydney Melbourne allowing dedicated rail for freight. Go look how close tnts main depot is to rail(cosgrove rd Enfield) this would not only speed up freight(bird1) it would reduce the need for a second airport in Sydney (bird2) reduce fuel burnt by both trucks and planes(bird3) and be far safer in the case of an accident, be it by bad loadin/overloading driver or equipment failure(bird4).
If you solve the time issue you solve the storage problem for the companies using just in time.
As to double handling, the same thing happens now with parcel freight companies, load into small pud in city , transfer to b-double to send to next state, unload to either a pud for capital delivery or onto another semi for regional distribution centre then into a pud.(pud= pick up delivery anything from a 1t van to 20ton rigid)
One other thing is that truckies are their own worst enemy now with a large number of owner drivers meaning they cannot afford to protest or strike as they risk losing their contracts and going bust. This has muted the voices that would have been raised about unrealistic schedules.


Agreed, a high speed train link up the east coast would be a great thing on a few levels and having traveled by train for the hell of it a few times in the last 15 years I can state that the current system as slow as hell and when the discount air fares were in play way too expensive.

It was also an unpleasant journey because of the people along the way.

The XPT which is supposed to be a high speed journey was anything but high speed on every occasion with enforced speed restrictions due to track issues and this was with passengers and not freight so the entire system would have to be replaced to go anywhere near efficient enough to carry the loads and to keep the speeds and times comparable with road freight taking into account the transport times from rail heads to the drop off points.

So heres the stumbling block, Who and how do we pay for this?

You cant have rail/road crossings so its all tunnels and bridges, New stations, new rolling stock and engines and in effect an entirely new system which would cost billions to set up, years to implement with cost blowouts and other complications and then there is maintenance overheads.

Fighting between State and federal gumbyments, cost offsets and the fights about who to lump with the offsets and then theres economic growth and shrinkage which would have a major effect on its viability and profitability.

Natural resources shipped via rail from site that are under threat from all sides be they environmental, Union or even the mining companies who have shown in recent times that they will pull the pin on supposedly done deals when they become economically unviable for one reason or another.

Trucks it is and im pretty sure that Trucks it will stay, Our laws re trucks have changed with time to allow them to operate ay 100 kph from the old school 80 kph, trucks and drivers are now regulated out the ying yang with tachographs, Driver monitoring hooked into the trucks themselves which in some cases shut down, GPS tracking allowing speed, location and all of the above in averages, Mass management pilot schemes allowing higher load weights and variations on logged hours and far better driver training that has ever been seen.

Companies spending money as legislated to train, review and improve drivers and billions spent on new trucks and trailers by the private sector in an attempt to improve the system from within.

So why doesn't it work as well as we would like it?

Roads for one, they are awful!

Not wide enough, bad design and management and nobody is spending the dollars consistently enough to keep the system in a reasonable state of repair let along making the system better.

The roads are the key for now, improve them, fund them and importantly maintain them.

Make them wider, add lanes and wider shoulders, make them drain better and build em with decent bases so they dont fall to pieces in the wet/dry/whatever and you will see reductions in accident, deaths etc.

[Disco44]

The XPT which is supposed to be a high speed journey was anything but high speed on every occasion with enforced speed restrictions due to track issues and this was with passengers and not freight so the entire system would have to be replaced to go anywhere near efficient enough to carry the loads and to keep the speeds and times Quote

You are right on the Brisbane/Sydney linethe only section that I could work out that a little bit of steam could be had was the Newcastle/Sydney section.All the rest was up hill and down dale with far too many curves.Also XPT stops for freight to pass.Correct me if I'm wrong but that's how it seems to me.
John.

[JDNSW]

I travel regularly on the XPT between Sydney and Dubbo. It is reasonably comfortable, and, at least for me, compares favourably with the road journey, in that it is much more stress free, cheaper (Senior's concession, but probably would be anyway by the time you take into account parking in Sydney), and is far cheaper than air, although here the major difference is obviously travel time and less obviously that there is one service a day compared to a dozen or more by air.

I also note that almost all the distance west of Lithgow is single track, which makes any increase in freight handling problematic.

I travelled early last year from Yass to Melbourne on the XPT, and the major concern was that it ran several hours late.

John

[Disco44]

I travel regularly on the XPT between Sydney and Dubbo. It is reasonably comfortable, and, at least for me, compares favourably with the road journey, in that it is much more stress free, cheaper (Senior's concession, but probably would be anyway by the time you take into account parking in Sydney), and is far cheaper than air, although here the major difference is obviously travel time and less obviously that there is one service a day compared to a dozen or more by air.

I also note that almost all the distance west of Lithgow is single track, which makes any increase in freight handling problematic.

I travelled early last year from Yass to Melbourne on the XPT, and the major concern was that it ran several hours late.

John
Yes John it is comfortable but it takes around 16 hours from Brisbane to Sydney.Also the closer you get to Sydney the more young dickheads get on and sometimes they are hard to control and get chucked off.The fares are great for pensioners.
John.

[Bigbjorn]

My son is a civil engineer. He tells me that all new road bridges over rails in NSW will have to be designed and built to have clearance for double deck container wagons.

Dave is correct in that rail can not compete with road for general freight. Clients expect door to door in minimum time. Thirty years ago I was running four line haul trucks on Brisbane-Sydney shuttle, pick-up today, delivery next working day in the other city. Rail is good for bulk haulage, grain, mineral, shipping containers, and the like. A high speed long haul passenger rail service would have to compete on price with the airlines. In fact it would have to have a price advantage to offer against the longer travel time. Right now it is cheaper to fly between state capitals than to drive.

I have not used Qld. Railways freight services for many years. They used to be bloody hopeless. It once took four weeks to take a Land Rover from Rocklea to Cairns. Another time a Rover for Morven was unloaded and left in the Rockhampton yards. Not even going in the right direction. Another for Cloncurry was passed through to Mt. Isa and unloaded. In both these cases QR staff tried to hand the vehicles over to the local dealer. "It is a Land Rover. It must be yours." If YOU didn't record THEIR wagon number they could not trace the shipment.

QR freight reps were keen to get some of the mining equipment business. I would tell them that they needed to be able to do the same job as the road heavy haulage companies, minimum dismantling, and from Brisbane to the coal mines in two days, and no need for cranes at the other end. The 75 tonne dozers would have to be blade, pushbeams, trunnions, and tracks off to fit QR loading gauge. On top of this, they then had only two wagons on strength that could handle the job. Might take them a week or two to find one and get it to Brisbane. Brambles could put a dozer on their big self-steering float in the afternoon, take off first light next morning and be on the CQ coalfields that evening. I pointed out to the QR sales manager that the same dozers could be ordered from Chicago, put on a rail wagon to Long Beach, then a fast ro-ro ship to Brisbane and be here in 28 days with only the blade and push beams off.

[woody]

When I had line haul trucks one of the things that got right up my nose was the attitude of warehouse staff. They all seem to think that truckies have nothing better to do than wait around their yards."

Agreed I've worked with people like that, we had a good relationship with both large transport companies and owner drivers. Our forkies had staggered breaks to ensure timely loads/unloads with our aim of half an hour including DG paperwork. All of our forkies also understood that the sub contractors didn't necessarily give a rats about the companies rig but to an owner driver it was their pride and joy and respected as such. We prided ourselves in not scratching the paint on the trailers or damaging the floor.
We only made drivers wait if they were obviously expedient in the delivery times (time stamped paperwork). This was our way of convincing a driver to stay within the speed limits and take their rest breaks, similar in a way I suppose to point to point monitoring. This was our way of protecting our families.

woody

[Bigbjorn]

Agreed I've worked with people like that, we had a good relationship with both large transport companies and owner drivers. Our forkies had staggered breaks to ensure timely loads/unloads with our aim of half an hour including DG paperwork. All of our forkies also understood that the sub contractors didn't necessarily give a rats about the companies rig but to an owner driver it was their pride and joy and respected as such. We prided ourselves in not scratching the paint on the trailers or damaging the floor.
We only made drivers wait if they were obviously expedient in the delivery times (time stamped paperwork). This was our way of convincing a driver to stay within the speed limits and take their rest breaks, similar in a way I suppose to point to point monitoring. This was our way of protecting our families.

woody

Self appointed log book police are the last thing any owner-driver needs. They already got enough harassment from Highway Patrol, Country Roads Board grubs, mermaids, etc. How do a bunch of storemen know how long it takes a particular vehicle to go from Point A to Point B? We were doing Brisbane-Sydney shuttle in 1983 with 435 hp Detroits and doing it legal in 14 hours, Acacia Ridge to Marrickville via New England Highway and the Putty Road. There were then still guys on the road with sub-200 hp prime movers that struggled to make it in 19-20 hours and had to engage in a lot of literary creativity in their log books if they were to make a living.

[Blknight.aus]

Self appointed log book police are the last thing any owner-driver needs. They already got enough harassment from Highway Patrol, Country Roads Board grubs, mermaids, etc. How do a bunch of storemen know how long it takes a particular vehicle to go from Point A to Point B? We were doing Brisbane-Sydney shuttle in 1983 with 435 hp Detroits and doing it legal in 14 hours, Acacia Ridge to Marrickville via New England Highway and the Putty Road. There were then still guys on the road with sub-200 hp prime movers that struggled to make it in 19-20 hours and had to engage in a lot of literary creativity in their log books if they were to make a living.

Right up until drivers making under book time screw up Right on time deliveries. FIFO in small yards doesnt work when the gear doesnt turn up in order.

[V8Ian]

I doubt there's too many FIFO storemen in Marrickville, Dave. :D

[woody]

Self appointed log book police are the last thing any owner-driver needs. They already got enough harassment from Highway Patrol, Country Roads Board grubs, mermaids, etc. How do a bunch of storemen know how long it takes a particular vehicle to go from Point A to Point B? We were doing Brisbane-Sydney shuttle in 1983 with 435 hp Detroits and doing it legal in 14 hours, Acacia Ridge to Marrickville via New England Highway and the Putty Road. There were then still guys on the road with sub-200 hp prime movers that struggled to make it in 19-20 hours and had to engage in a lot of literary creativity in their log books if they were to make a living.

We never had a problem with owner drivers, they appreciated what we were doing. Sub contract drivers for the tpt companies were another story. We paid for loads by weight and did not have ridiculous delivery demands. Most of the drivers I class as good mates and all we asked of them was to look after the load and look after themselves.

With regards to us being self appointed log book police, we had an obligation with regards to "Chain of Responsibility" legislation. 1983 was a long time ago and the laws and responsibilities change as does technology. We "a bunch of storemen" only have to read the consignment note that is printed prior to loading to know when the truck left another warehouse, even simple storemen a capable of doing the simple maths to work out how long the load took to get to our warehouse.

A brief run down of chain of responsibilty

Chain of Responsibility - Queensland Trucking Association (http://www.qta.com.au/index.cfm?MenuID=120)

woody

[vnx205]

A brief run down of chain of responsibilty

Chain of Responsibility - Queensland Trucking Association (http://www.qta.com.au/index.cfm?MenuID=120)

woody

That makes interesting reading.

As an layman, reading it in the context of this discussion, it appears that there is actually a requirement for you to do what you described.

If you unload a driver who has obviously broken laws to get there early, it appears that you would not be "Avoiding arrangements which encourage or reward non-compliance."

As I said, interesting reading.

[frantic]

My son is a civil engineer. He tells me that all new road bridges over rails in NSW will have to be designed and built to have clearance for double deck container wagons.

Dave is correct in that rail can not compete with road for general freight. Clients expect door to door in minimum time. Thirty years ago I was running four line haul trucks on Brisbane-Sydney shuttle, pick-up today, delivery next working day in the other city. Rail is good for bulk haulage, grain, mineral, shipping containers, and the like. A high speed long haul passenger rail service would have to compete on price with the airlines. In fact it would have to have a priced lower.

Have a good look at the maglev. Sydney to melbourne in 3 hours is in reality faster. 1 hr check in minimum + travel to the airport then you land in melbourne and how far are the 2 airports from the city centre and how much is the bus or taxi? What this meant is that it would be faster from home/ work to your destination along with no chance of delays due to weather . The maglev was proposed to go central sydney to central melbourne via wollongong and canberra.

[tony66_au]

My understanding is that Maglev trains are not suited to heavy haulage and are more for high speed passenger transfer.

I know that a freight handling company in the US was looking at a short haul (Under 12km) maglev freight mover for containerised freight but the system has to be purpose built to carry the loads.

[sheerluck]

My understanding is that Maglev trains are not suited to heavy haulage and are more for high speed passenger transfer.

I know that a freight handling company in the US was looking at a short haul (Under 12km) maglev freight mover for containerised freight but the system has to be purpose built to carry the loads.

I believe that it is really quite expensive to run and maintain a Maglev system too.

I've been on the Maglev train that runs from Shanghai airport to the city a dozen times or so, and it is fantastically impressive. 400km/h+ meaning the 30km from airport to city are covered in about 7 mins.

I would doubt that the technology could ever be used over great distances like Syd-Mel, without spending a huge amount of money.

[Edit] Just looked at Wikipedia, and apparently it cost $1.2Billion for those 30km. Wow!

[tony66_au]

Yep, the argument is initial cost versus very low maintenance costs but the other issue is the amount of energy used which at cruising speed is quite low with the extreme being the cost of getting the rolling (Floating?) Stock moving.

And it seems to me like a job to be subbed out to a private consortium and then handed back to the Federal Gumbyment after a period of time not unlike the tunnels and toll roads.

I cant see this working if the chunks are funded by 3 or 4 state gumbyments as I feel parity would never be achieved and then we end up where we are with our rail network.

I also suggest that the load carrying capacity of a Maglev train would have to be chopped up into smaller shuttles to make it cost efficient which creates more traffic issues on the rail network but this time at 300 kph which is way beyond comfortable human control speeds in a congested environment.

Id imagine that nobody wants a 300 ton derailment at 100 kph let along 3 or 400 kph and this leads to residential action groups etc etc which is why I suspect no bugger wants the pin pulled on this particular grenade.

Kinda sad really because id travel on a Maglev train long distance....

Oh and somebody mentioned airport service?

This is where I envy Sydney lol

Melbourne has had this on the drawing board since Henry Bolte in the 60's and it still hasn't happened.

It would be great but I wont be holding my breath.

[Bigbjorn]

....

Oh and somebody mentioned airport service?

This is where I envy Sydney lol

Melbourne has had this on the drawing board since Henry Bolte in the 60's and it still hasn't happened.

It would be great but I wont be holding my breath.

Brisbane and Sydney have airport train services at rip-off fares.

Melbourne has the Skybus from airport to Spencer St. every fifteen minutes through the day and thirty minutes in the evening. This service will take you to a CBD hotel by mini bus from Spencer St. Can't remember the fare.

[Bigbjorn]

Have a good look at the maglev. Sydney to melbourne in 3 hours is in reality faster. 1 hr check in minimum + travel to the airport then you land in melbourne and how far are the 2 airports from the city centre and how much is the bus or taxi? What this meant is that it would be faster from home/ work to your destination along with no chance of delays due to weather . The maglev was proposed to go central sydney to central melbourne via wollongong and canberra.

I am sure security restrictions would be applied to the service just like flying. Check in 90 minutes prior, x-ray your carry-on bag and empty your pockets, pass through the detector manned by obese otherwise-would-be-unemployed "security" guards. You should be able to turn up at the departure point, whether airport or rail station ten minutes prior to departure, buy a seat, and board. No different to catching an urban bus or train.

[frantic]

I am sure security restrictions would be applied to the service just like flying. Check in 90 minutes prior, x-ray your carry-on bag and empty your pockets, pass through the detector manned by obese otherwise-would-be-unemployed "security" guards. You should be able to turn up at the departure point, whether airport or rail station ten minutes prior to departure, buy a seat, and board. No different to catching an urban bus or train.

I seriously doubt it:D bullet train Japan, you turn up 5 min before time to leave walk from suburban lines to dedicated high speed platform, place your bags in the carriage with you and go. You can't really hi-jack a train especially one that has no rails.
Sheer luck was there any security or 1+ hr check in for the Chinese maglev?
As to cost how much is a second airport going to cost in Sydney along with every domestic plane that will not be needed, enviro impact , avgas and noise pollution in the western burbs?

[isuzurover]

Even Europe is having problems increasing rail freight...

Shifting freight traffic to rail proves daunting
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Rail freight travel fell between 2000 and 2010 despite the allure of subsidies

Rail freight travel fell between 2000 and 2010 despite the allure of subsidies (Keystone)

by Daniele Mariani and Christian Raaflaub, swissinfo.ch
Jun 24, 2012 - 11:00

A goal of cutting down on heavy traffic crossing the Alps by boosting freight travel by rail has been enshrined in the Swiss constitution for nearly 20 years. But with roads still faster than rail, it is starting to look like an illusion.

Rail transport absorbs two-thirds of the freight traffic crossing the Alps every year. Despite the government’s efforts, its market share is not increasing, nor is likely to in the foreseeable future.

Swiss voters accepted the Alpine Initiative in 1994, sending a clear signal as to what future policy on transportation was to be. The resulting article 84 of the constitution stipulated that “transalpine traffic involving transportation of goods through Switzerland is to take place by railway”.

While the number of heavy trucks crossing the Swiss Alps has declined, from over 1.4 million in 2000 to 1.25 million in 2010 (three-quarters of which go by the Gotthard axis), the proportion of freight conveyed by rail has also fallen - despite the subsidies paid to make it more attractive.

In 1999 rail freight traffic was 68.7 per cent (compared with 31.3 per cent by road), while in 2010 it was 62.6 per cent (37.4 per cent), according to Alpifret figures in the 2010 report on monitoring of road and rail freight transport in the Alpine region.

Last December, approving the report on the transfer of traffic for 2011, the government admitted that “the instruments currently available [for shifting traffic from road to rail] will not be sufficient for achieving the objective of 650,000 trips annually set for 2018”. The opening of the Gotthard base railway tunnel, scheduled for 2016, will not change the situation in any substantial way.

“For over ten years now we have been doing all we can. But the limits of the transfer policy are becoming more and more apparent,” said Rico Maggi, a transportation expert and the director of the Institute for Economic Research at the University of Lugano
Switzerland ahead of the rest

The glass can of course been seen as half full. Without the additional incentives (see sidebar) to support the transfer of traffic, the number of trucks would certainly be greater – by at least 600,000 per year, according to the Federal Transport Office.

At the European level, on the other hand, Switzerland is an exception.

In France, the truck continues to rule the road, and the railway seems to be running out of steam: whereas in 1999 rail accounted for 19.9 per cent of goods tonnage transported through the Alps, in 2010 the proportion dropped to 10.5 per cent. Only very recently, in 2009, has the government put forward an initiative to transfer at least 500,000 trucks a year to rail by 2020 and increase the proportion to 25 per cent.

In Austria the proportion is higher and rail transport is growing, but it still conveys only a third of the goods.
Timing

The problem of rail transportation is not really one of price. If you take to the highway, costs along the Cologne-Busto Arsizio corridor (820km) reach €1.85 per kilometre per vehicle, according to data provided by Alpifret. Opting for combined transport, the same stretch costs €1.71/km, without taking the subsidies into account.

Combined road-rail transport is thus quite competitive. The obstacles are of a different kind.

“The transfer policy is based on the idea that flows of traffic can be regulated like flows of water,” said Maggi.

“In reality, however, companies have to decide individually how to produce and transport their goods. There are many small and medium-sized companies that cannot work with a rather inflexible logistical system that is not conceived for short-term needs. And on the other hand, there are goods that are not suitable for rail transport.”

In spite of traffic jams and problems of various sorts, the highway remains the fastest way to get from point A to point B: 11 and a half hours from Cologne to Busto Arsizio, without holdups, compared to about 22 hours by train.

“The potential for transfer is fairly slight,” concluded Maggi.
No turning back

Despite the rather middling results achieved so far, the Swiss government and parliament intend to continue on the path they have set out for themselves.

On June 12, the House of Representatives adopted a motion containing a series of proposals to encourage transport by rail.

Some of these measures are currently under review. The government will soon present its proposal to build a corridor on the Gotthard axis permitting transport of four-metre-high semi-trailers (currently it’s 3.80 metres), which would mean an increase in capacity. They are also considering the possibility of enlarging the loading terminals in Italy.

For the government these provisions will encourage “a lasting transfer of heavy transalpine traffic from road to rail”. Yet the real impact is expected to be modest.

To reach significant results, “much higher” taxes than the current ones for heavy trucks on the highway would be required. The margin of manoeuvre is limited, though. Currently a truck making the crossing from Basel to Chiasso pays about SFr290 kilometre-based tax on heavy goods vehicles. The tax could be increased to SFr325. Anything higher would not be in conformity with the land transport agreement concluded with the European Union.

Another strategy advocated for some time now is the creation of an Alpine Crossing Exchange (see sidebar). A convention introducing an international system to manage traffic appeals to the Swiss government, but not to the other parties involved.

“Given the lack of political consensus found in neighbouring countries of the European Union” the establishment of an Alpine Crossing Exchange in the next few years “seems unlikely”, says the government.

For the transfer of traffic, then, they will continue to proceed by small steps. Nothing revolutionary is on the horizon.

Daniele Mariani and Christian Raaflaub, swissinfo.ch
(Translated from Italian by Terence MacNamee)
Transfer of traffic

The aim of the traffic transfer policy is to protect the Alps from the negative effects of through traffic.

The legislation fixes at 650,000 the maximum annual number of trucks allowed to be in transit across the Swiss Alps two years after the opening of the Gotthard base tunnel railway, that is in 2018.

In December 2011, however, the government made clear that, under current conditions, this aim will not be reached. In 2010 about 1.25 million trucks transited on Swiss alpine routes.

In Switzerland the situation is better compared with other countries of the alpine region, because the railway absorbs about two-thirds of the goods traffic through the Alps. In Austria the proportion is one-third, while in France it is less than one-tenth.
Additional incentives

To try to shift freight traffic to rail, various additional measures have been introduced which aim to equalise competition between rail and road, increase railway productivity and improve the flow of traffic on the roads.

The measures include operating subsidies for combined traffic and railway freight traffic, investment in terminals and financial aid for feeder tracks. In 2011 SFr234 million were budgeted for these three items.

Another important instrument is the kilometre-based tax on heavy goods vehicles, applied to road transport. In 2011, this tax yielded SFr1.5 billion for the federal coffers. A third of this amount is earmarked for the cantons, which use it mainly to finance the costs of road traffic. The federal share is used mainly in public transport projects.
Alpine Crossing Exchange

The Alpine Crossing Exchange is a proposed instrument based on market mechanisms, the purpose of which is to encourage the transfer of freight traffic from road to rail.

In practice this would mean that a maximum number of heavy vehicles in transit through the Alps is fixed annually, and these transit credits are sold to the highest bidder.

The credits would apply to all the alpine passes in the country, while it would be left up to the transporters to choose their own route.

To avoid just diverting the traffic through neighbouring countries, the Alpine Crossing Exchange would require the establishment of a coordinated approach within the entire alpine region.

[frantic]

There is the answer in the last part of your quote isuzurover. They are actually going to limit the number of trucks crossing the alps and have an auction style fee to those places available. They have to work with other countries to implemented this to stop it being avoided by driving through a neighbouring country. How much easier would that be to implement on the east coast. Auction off X number of spots per day Vic-nsw ditto nsw-q qld. And all 3 into S.A. You will reduce the number of trucks but jobs will be created in larger storage and increased metro deliveries.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Frantic, how will they justify the quota when it has been fuel an weight taxes on trucks that in no small way have paid for the upgrades to the Hume/Pacific Hwy corridor?

You may create a few jobs in rail-freight depots, but you will have a net loss of jobs overall when you account for the direct losses in drivers/owners and indirect losses in new truck sales and truck service areas. It will also increase the cost on the taxpayer because social security benefits come out of the taxpayer's pockets and you will reduce the number of taxpayers by the equivalent of the net loss of jobs across the industry.

A lose lose lose situation.

Did you read the paper yesterday where the rail infrastructure corp in Victoria has admitted a bungled upgrade of the track from Southern Cross (Spencer Street) to Albury with speed limits of 60 KPH and 80KPH over numerous sections of track with muddied ballast. Rail freight will never be economical with speed limits almost half that of road freight.

[cewilson]

And just to add to that, how many people now days get peeved off waiting for their supplies - now imagine if EVERYTHING was delayed a minimum of 24 hours over what you already wait.....

[sheerluck]

........Sheer luck was there any security or 1+ hr check in for the Chinese maglev?..............

Visible uniformed police presence on the platforms, and x-ray luggage checks in the terminal, but the trains ran every 15 mins or so. It was a standard pay, chuck your bags through the machine and then get on when the next one leaves.

The price (80rmb, about 12 bucks return) was considered extortionate considering you could do the same trip on the metro for about 10rmb.:o

[frantic]

Frantic, how will they justify the quota when it has been fuel an weight taxes on trucks that in no small way have paid for the upgrades to the Hume/Pacific Hwy corridor? Re-read isuzurovers cut then re-post;) They PLAN to halve alpine trucks by a 650,000 limit.

You may create a few jobs in rail-freight depots, but you will have a net loss of jobs overall when you account for the direct losses in drivers/owners and indirect losses in new truck sales and truck service areas. It will also increase the cost on the taxpayer because social security benefits come out of the taxpayer's pockets and you will reduce the number of taxpayers by the equivalent of the net loss of jobs across the industry.
You will not only create jobs in rail depots but in every medium / large business. Please think before posting, now you need 1 or even a part time storeman to cover your 3-5 days of stock, go to rail(or the 3rd option) and you need to carry 10-20 days of stock or pay the extra levy. This means storage size is tripled meaning more storemen/jobs and fuel use is reduced.Ooops an enviro win as well! :twisted:

A lose lose lose situation.
You forgot the reduced heavy vehicle traffic and reduced accidents of Semi's and cars/ buses, obviuosly not a factor in your mind. So to you a semi driver having a micro-sleep and wiping out a car/bus/house is no different to a train de-railing and hitting a few tree's with koala's?

Did you read the paper yesterday where the rail infrastructure corp in Victoria has admitted a bungled upgrade of the track from Southern Cross (Spencer Street) to Albury with speed limits of 60 KPH and 80KPH over numerous sections of track with muddied ballast. Rail freight will never be economical with speed limits almost half that of road freight.
And in your final para, another list of potential jobs called track work, upgrades and maintenance:D
There would be problems if the trains and shipping(not really an option in the alps Lots-a:twisted:) terminals on our coastline where not upgraded before the legislation was enacted but in the swiss case they have a 2018 date to acheive this by and already have 62% going by train, the french have dropped to 10% from 25% a decade ago but are following suit to build that figure back up:o This was decided by the voters, i wonder what we would vote for: #a slight delay in deliveries for half the trucks on our north/south freeways or#more trucks?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

<snip> Re-read isuzurovers cut then re-post You're assuming I read posts by isuzurover!

[tony66_au]

Rail wont work for freight.

Too slow, not in the right places, too expensive and you have the added burden of massive heavy haulage traffic in areas no longer set up to cope with this to get containers from the rail head to existing distribution facilities.

I have sat in the queues on the docks waiting for containers and its a massive amount of lost productivity.

It can not be done today and nobody will pay for it to be done tomorrow on traditional rail let alone pie in the sky Maglev which has to duplicate the existing infrastructure.

The concept is good but the execution is flawed.

BTW dont maglev trains run on batteries and gensets? And if they dont and run on DC current isnt that going to indirectly pollute via brown coal fired steam turbine generator power stations?

As for Pollution from aircraft as far as I understand it Jet fuel is similar to diesel so there is particulate pollution in the form of carbon, Hi Lead Avgas is getting harder to get and only used on old radial piston engines and older light aircraft neither of which do freight.

And for what its worth im enjoying global warming anyway.

[V8Ian]

And how long will the local supermarket be able to wait for supplies when this sort of thing happens?

Coal wagon derailment leaves a mess in Boggabri - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-29/coal-wagon-derailment-leaves-a-mess-in-boggabri/4398576)

Expected 3-4 months for repairs to be completed. Road freight has the flexablity to detour at short notice, unlike rail.

[JDNSW]

..........

As for Pollution from aircraft as far as I understand it Jet fuel is similar to diesel so there is particulate pollution in the form of carbon, Hi Lead Avgas is getting harder to get and only used on old radial piston engines and older light aircraft neither of which do freight.


Jet engines will burn a variety of fuel, but the fuel sold for the purpose in Australia is kerosene. And in any case the production of particulate carbon depends on the combustion process not the fuel type - and modern turbines produce very low levels of these (as do modern diesels). Hi Lead Avgas has not been routinely available in Australia for many years, being replaced by 100LL - probably the key reason for the exit of the Caribou. As an aside, diesel engined light aircraft usually burn jet fuel, not distillate.

John

[JDNSW]

And how long will the local supermarket be able to wait for supplies when this sort of thing happens?

Coal wagon derailment leaves a mess in Boggabri - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-29/coal-wagon-derailment-leaves-a-mess-in-boggabri/4398576)

Expected 3-4 months for repairs to be completed. Road freight has the flexablity to detour at short notice, unlike rail.

In the days when there was no alternative to rail, this sort of damage was routinely repaired (or bypassed by temporary track) in days, sometimes, if really critical, in hours. This sort of repair response would be a necessary part of any return to large scale reliance on rail, and the existence of resources for this sort of repair all over the network was a significant part of the overhead that lead to rail losing out to road for "retail" transport.

And your point about flexibility is well made.

Sometimes we forget that rail carried almost all freight well within the lifetime of many who are alive today. For example, I can clearly remember the existence of a parcel service run by electric parcel trains in the Sydney metropolitan system - parcel offices were at most, if not all, suburban stations.

John

[frantic]

You're assuming I read posts by isuzurover!

Ahh so your not really reading the thread or subject of the post I responded to, just cherry picking or trollng:twisted:


We do have the potential infrastructure to have a much larger slice of our interstate freight on rail, ( original post go google earth, cosgrove rd enfield and look how close tnt HQ is to rail)and if the Swiss can run 60%+ surely we could do a bit better than the tiny amount we do now. The Swiss alps would have much higher weather and construction issues than we would and they don't seem to have 3 month delays on goods:D

[Lotz-A-Landies]

... We do have the potential infrastructure to have a much larger slice of our interstate freight on rail, ( original post go google earth, cosgrove rd enfield and look how close tnt HQ is to rail)and if the Swiss can run 60%+ surely we could do a bit better than the tiny amount we do now. The Swiss alps would have much higher weather and construction issues than we would and they don't seem to have 3 month delays on goods:DThe Enfield rail yards have mostly had the track torn up and currently does not have direct access to any of the motorways. The planned intermodal precinct at the SME Moorebank will have direct access to the M5 West/Hume Highway/M7 and the Port Botany - Metropolitan freight rail network and East Hills - Campbelltown rail lines.

As for Switzerland, have you been there? The Alps are huge and mostly have single lane road tunnels tens of kilometres long making transport bottlenecks and hence the need to shift significant volume out of the tunnels onto the rail. You can also drive completely through Switzerland from Mont Blanc on the French border to Winterthur near the German border (400Km) or from Schaffhausen on the German border to Lugarno on the Itanian border (300Km) or basel to Geneva (250Km) in less than four hours.

The situation in Australia is vastly different. I would however think it would sort of be comparable to Australia if everything from Sydney had to be driven over the Blue Mountains through Lithgow to reach the rest of Australia, but that is clearly not the case.

[frantic]

The Enfield rail yards have mostly had the track torn up and currently does not have direct access to any of the motorways. The planned intermodal precinct at the SME Moorebank will have direct access to the M5 West/Hume Highway/M7 and the Port Botany - Metropolitan freight rail network and East Hills - Campbelltown rail lines.

As for Switzerland, have you been there? The Alps are huge and mostly have single lane road tunnels tens of kilometres long making transport bottlenecks and hence the need to shift significant volume out of the tunnels onto the rail. You can also drive completely through Switzerland from Mont Blanc on the French border to Winterthur near the German border (400Km) or from Schaffhausen on the German border to Lugarno on the Itanian border (300Km) or basel to Geneva (250Km) in less than four hours.

The situation in Australia is vastly different. I would however think it would sort of be comparable to Australia if everything from Sydney had to be driven over the Blue Mountains through Lithgow to reach the rest of Australia, but that is clearly not the case.

The first paragraph shows the POTENTIAL. Look it up.;) that tiny road running along the opposite side of the rail yard whats that called? It also runs past rookwood and oylmpic park homebush to st ives and is mostly 3 lanes each direction.

Your second paragraph demonstrates why they should be using road over rail with travel times that good but their not. Yes I have been there on a bus over a decade ago and unless the tunnels from italy and Austria have shrunk they where mostly 2-3 lanes each direction.So with travel times of close to 100kph for trucks in your examples it made sense to go rail but here we are lucky to do 3/4 that or 1/2 if you include city traffic.

So in your 3rd paragraph you agree? It should be easier to build a reliable rail system in a country that is NOT perched on the side of a cliff. And is not subject to blizzards and snow 3 months a year that would melt and destroy tracks with the runoff.

[bob10]

I think we can not compare our situation, with countries in Europe, because of the vast distances involved.What may work here is a combination of Rail/ Road, with a new rail network supplying transport hubs, and trucks delivering freight from the hub, but restricted in how far they travel. It would require a complete new rail network, freight only, and judicious placement of the hubs. Ideally this would negate trucks from our major highways, thus saving money on road repairs long term, and use of electric trains, using new alternate energy sources, would take the pressure off fuel supplies. New rolling stock, designed to carry large numbers of livestock, plus , at the hubs, container cranes like we see at our ports, to reduce the effort required to distribute product, could streamline the operation. Dreaming? yep, unfortunately, I don't think this country has any politician [ because it would need political will to make it happen] or entrepreneur ,[ because it would be a risky undertaking], with the foresight to take it on. And before the naysayers start picking it to pieces, just take a moment to consider, it may actually work. Bob

[tony66_au]

I don't doubt that if it were to be implemented that the benefits would be massive both in economic and environmental terms and i believe that over time people would come back to Rail as a friendly alternative to Flying as I certainly would.

But you obviously understand the hurdles in Politics and your reasoning was pretty much in line with mine.

The systems in Victoria alone have degraded to the point where travel from Leongatha (SE Vic) to Horsham (Western Vic) via public transport took 9 hours, 2 bus and 1 train and was far from a nice journey.

40 years ago it would take 2 trains and 7 hours with a dining car, legroom and the option to go for a walk if I wanted to and 3 classes of travel.

Those same lines also carried Milk, Butter etc from Gippsland and Grain and Dry goods from the Western district as well as Parcels, Mail throughout the entire rail network.

I do travel on trains 10 or so times a year by choice and as I hate Bus travel and enjoy the hell out of trains but I cant ever see it going back to the halcyon days.