43 Grupo 2012 (fire bombers)

[spudboy]

43 Grupo 2012 - YouTube

[JohnF]

are these Canadair 215 fire bombers. for the same money you can buy a BE-200 jet fire bomber. I have filled Airtractor AT802's at Casino AIrport/Fire control center.

[3toes]

Earlier this year was watching from the beach on Pollensa in Majorica as they were taking off and landing at their base on the bay.

Was spectacular as they came in and scooped up the water. Then took off and 'bombed' the hills. No fires they hit the hills with water as a preventative measure.

When drove into town had wondered why there was a large seaplane sculpture in the middle of the roundabout.

[superquag]

I understand that our fire situation throughout all parts/climates of Oz is totally unlike any other country... but seeing as heli-tankers are used to some effect,as well as fixed wing water-tankers, would'nt it make sense to have a couple of larger ones ? -to reduce the severity around towns that may make the differance between losing a few houses... or whole streets.

From what I can gather, the last major study into co$t-effectiveness was done around 20+ years ago and it showed that a DC-6 was nearly twice as productive as the Bell 212. I understand the DC10 as used in the US, is bigger again. - Size does matter...:p

Comments from those in the Trade?

[JohnF]

I understand that our fire situation throughout all parts/climates of Oz is totally unlike any other country... but seeing as heli-tankers are used to some effect,as well as fixed wing water-tankers, would'nt it make sense to have a couple of larger ones ? -to reduce the severity around towns that may make the differance between losing a few houses... or whole streets.

From what I can gather, the last major study into co$t-effectiveness was done around 20+ years ago and it showed that a DC-6 was nearly twice as productive as the Bell 212. I understand the DC10 as used in the US, is bigger again. - Size does matter...:p

Comments from those in the Trade?

I am not in the trade, but to operate a DC10 you have to have a long runway. Small country airports will not take that plane. And so you may have to fly a long way to get to the fire. from previous reading elsewhere I understand that in Victoria outside Melbourne only 2 airports are big enough to take a DC10. So they are not that viable as a waterbomber in Australia.

And you could take several hours to fill one with water.

One engine crook puts the plane out of action.

3 single engine Air tractors AT1002 carry 12 tons of water at around 10 million dollars to purchase the three of them compared to 40 million I think for the DC10. if one engine goes only one plane is out of action and you still fly the other two planes. three pilots are needed, but the DC10 has a crew of three.

For the 40 million the DC10 costs you would be carrying 48 tons of water per drop. in Air Tractors AT1002 or if using the 3 ton capacity 802 you would be carrying 36 tons of water per drop for 40 million. And the airtractor can operate of a rough grass strip, or can be put on floats [the AT802] in order to scoop water from a dam or bay.

So that is why Australian fire services have not purchased DC10's.

a fleet of smaller Air tractors actually can get more water on a fire in most conditions compared to the limitations of the DC10.

Oh and if you have a number of fires in the state you can split up the Air Tracttor fleet which you cannot do with one 40 million Dollar DC10.

And Airtractors can do crop spraying, etc., out of the fire season.

I read of an Airtractor that carried Deisel in its water tank to suppy farmers who were cut of by floods with fuel--it landed on a section of road that was not under water. They had run out of fuel to pump out water, and to use in their vechiles to feed stock, etc. So a fleet of Airtractors is much more versitile than one or two DC10's.

Certainly sonetimes a Erikson Skycrane can get more water on the fire than a Air tractor, unless the water [small dam, etc.,] is a lond way from the fire. then Airtractors could get more water than the chopper onto the fire much cheaper.

[BigBlackDog]

Problem with something like an air tractor is you still need somewhere to land it after every water drop and then the ground infrastructure to refill it with water. In any area that has a little standing water a chopper can snorkel from it.

We have a bk-117 with a 600 litre belly tank and can snorkel a full load in around 45 seconds. We also have (borrowed) 2 bell 214s, they snorkel in the same time but do 3000 litres. Granted an air tractor can scoop off water (i suspect there wouldnt be many capable of it though) but you need a fairly long waterway to do that off. In some of our recent fires in tassie the helicopters were sometimes doing a dump every 2 to 3 minutes, pretty efficient.

JohnF, the film shows the canadair 415, turboprop version of the 215, about 7 million per unit, made only by special order. Cool machine, if you have a long enough stretch of water to fill it.:p that's a brilliant film too, amazing stuff these guys do

[BigBlackDog]

This is a BIG bomber, evergreen 747, 20,000 gal

Evergreen 747 Crown Fire Palmdale CA - YouTube