Found the limits of Puma cooling capacity??

[justinc]

During the hottest day on record down here, Friday, I was at work briefly (Or so I thought...) to finish a few jobs and got a visit from an ESV, A 2009 130 DC with a water tank and fire pump etc on the tray. Had an overheat engine cutout going up our southern outlet, a very steep and reasonably long hill. He was full of water, about 650KG, and with all the other gear would add up to about 1 to 1.1 T on the tray.
He had the A/C on, and was pushing it hard in 5th.

Checked the Viscous fan, it was freewheeling uselessly when rad temps were about 91 degrees, and had some play evident in the bearing so I fitted up a used Td5 one (The same fan, BTW) and I discovered he had run the vehicle in some deep silty mud the week before, so that explained the fan issues I reckon as it was idling for a while with the fan stuck partially while he waited to get the winch hooked up etc. Also explained the Kg or so of silt I hosed out of the rad core fins, A/C condenser and intercooler.

After this, went for another drive, scangauge hooked up and me driving. At 120Km'h pegged in 6th gear on a slight gradient it hit 116 degrees, the engine cut / failsafe mode.

Fan was fairly roaring, and after a slow down to 90 for about 500metres power was restored and we were off again. Temp then dropped off to 95 when we were driving 'normally'.

I was particularly concerned about the sudden temp gauge and engine cut, NOTHING happened to the temp gauge until 116, then it went straight to red and the engine failsafe cut in.

This can be dangerous, there is no warning, so if a B double is behind you and you happen upon this scenario you have no option but to leave the road to the shoulder or risk getting hit. Hard.

I will be replacing the fan with a new one, and fitting a TM2 or similar to set the head alarm to around 105 degrees, that way there is some warning before cut out.

The vehicle gets used to fight fires, fires are hot. You DO NOT want a sudden cut of power when trying to exit a burning area with people on board. Certain serious safety issue there I'm afraid.

Can I just mention too, that the road surface was so hot, the tyres were sticky and the road was left with tyre marks following us, I would say 60+ degree surface temps and ambient air hitting the radiator etc wouldn't have been much less. Oh, and the A/C was still cold:D
Go the 2.4, I couldn't see a Tdi doing that sort of speed with that weight on, either.

JC

[carlschmid2002]

Sounds a lot like whats happening with mine. It is at the Port Melbourne dealership. No news yet as to what the problem is.

[justinc]

Sounds a lot like whats happening with mine. It is at the Port Melbourne dealership. No news yet as to what the problem is.

yes i saw you thread, hope it gets sorted soon. my guess with yours is a faulty sender or wiring maybe, having a read of the southh african sites shows 1 or 2 with funny things happening, rectified after a sender unit replacement.

jc

[Blknight.aus]

whats the reduced power output like?

RPM limit or torque limit?

if its a torque limit I wonder if the old mack R series Pyro overtemp drill of gear down and pin it would keep you going?

[PAT303]

The fact that the tonka toy Land Rover 2.4/2.5ltre engines can still operate at such temps with a load speaks volumes,the Td5 D2 I've repaired got flogged by the owners husband who hates it down Nullagine road last week with a 2t trailer on the back,he went through a dip that caused the trailer leaf to come out of the slipper it bounced that high without an issue.I'd have a Tdi,Td5,TDCi anyday over any Japanese engine. Pat

[isuzurover]

...

Can I just mention too, that the road surface was so hot, the tyres were sticky and the road was left with tyre marks following us, I would say 60+ degree surface temps ...

...

Obviously Tassie asphalt is inferior to WA asphalt... :D

[scarry]

If the A/C is on,this would increase the air temp on the rad and through the engine bay by around 10 to 12 degrees,and the A/C compressor will load the engine.

If it was my vehicle i would sacrifice some comfort to keep the machinery operational.The A/C would be OFF,at least while loaded and going up a hill.

A bit like doing 120k's in the same type of heat,drop down to 95,things would be fine.It is not just the engine that gets overheated,,it is the rest of the drive train,etc.(not knocking JC's road test here)

A mate of mine had a Paj,if the gearbox overheated,it would cut the engine,fun when on the beach with the tide coming in.

I had a D2 on Moreton island in 42 degrees,doing a lot of soft sand work as the tide was up.The auto over temp light appeared,but the engine temp guage never moved.Stop and let it idle in neutral for a few minutes,the light will go off, and away you go again.

As Pat has said,the TD5 seems to have a very good cooling system.

[scarry]

Obviously Tassie asphalt is inferior to WA asphalt... :D

Or that could be the way it was driven,all that power & torque:p:D

[Blknight.aus]

Obviously Tassie asphalt is inferior to WA asphalt... :D

Bet tassie asphalt doesnt suffer cold fractures

[justinc]

whats the reduced power output like?

RPM limit or torque limit?

if its a torque limit I wonder if the old mack R series Pyro overtemp drill of gear down and pin it would keep you going?

Hi Dave, Torque/ output limit. Very drastic like you had literally run out of fuel.

I did exactly that, pulled off for following traffic, dropped back to 3rd gear and tootled along until the temp dropped back to about 110 or so, it then came back online instantly. If it weren't for the simultaneous gauge up and engine cut it is a great engine save system.
I just feel you need some prewarning, IE a gradual rise in the gauge to show you something is happening.

JC

[justinc]

If the A/C is on,this would increase the air temp on the rad and through the engine bay by around 10 to 12 degrees,and the A/C compressor will load the engine.

If it was my vehicle i would sacrifice some comfort to keep the machinery operational.The A/C would be OFF,at least while loaded and going up a hill.

A bit like doing 120k's in the same type of heat,drop down to 95,things would be fine.It is not just the engine that gets overheated,,it is the rest of the drive train,etc.(not knocking JC's road test here)

A mate of mine had a Paj,if the gearbox overheated,it would cut the engine,fun when on the beach with the tide coming in.

I had a D2 on Moreton island in 42 degrees,doing a lot of soft sand work as the tide was up.The auto over temp light appeared,but the engine temp guage never moved.Stop and let it idle in neutral for a few minutes,the light will go off, and away you go again.

As Pat has said,the TD5 seems to have a very good cooling system.

I tested it mainly to try and get the thing to repeat the symptom, and find out why. I also feel the A/C needs to operated under these conditions, especially with suited up Firies in a smallish cab, who may be suffering heat exhaustion.

But yes 100% agree the use of A/C for us mere mortals would be adding to the problem for sure :)

JC

[460cixy]

Late model ford falcons do much the same the gauge is controlled by the ecu to avoid fluctuations but if there's an over heat the power slowly drops off eventually it cuts cylinders out till it finally stops and if I remember right there's a chime as a warning and the gauge by this time will be in the red its just there for decoration realy and I gather the defender in question is much the same system. But since this system was fitted to the falcon I haven't seen one cooked to the point of no return but its not fitted to the factory gas units for obvious reasons

[Blknight.aus]

Hi Dave, Torque/ output limit. Very drastic like you had literally run out of fuel.

I did exactly that, pulled off for following traffic, dropped back to 3rd gear and tootled along until the temp dropped back to about 110 or so, it then came back online instantly. If it weren't for the simultaneous gauge up and engine cut it is a great engine save system.
I just feel you need some prewarning, IE a gradual rise in the gauge to show you something is happening.

JC

Wonder what it does if it keeps cooking?

[justinc]

Wonder what it does if it keeps cooking?

Probably STOP/ Sieze:(....My thoughts are that unless a hose has actually burst and it has run out of water etc, then you'd have to be a peanut to try and drive it at this point, no power, gauge in the red, warning lamps on....:D:(

JC

[HPLP]

Is there any other way to fit aircon to the vehicle without a engine driven compressor? I too have been watching my block temp gauge when the aircon has been on/off.

Might be an idea for a safety to keep it operational.

H

[PAT303]

A fortnight back we went out to a local waterhole and the ground was that hot we could not walk on it,a cooper tyre burst,a jeep had fuel evaporation problems and the Patrol had a gearbox overtemp alarm that locked it in neutral so it was stranded.The TDCi powered on as did the Pathfinder,as I've said many times you have to use common sense in hard conditions and switch your brain on. Pat

[PAT303]

Probably STOP/ Sieze:(....My thoughts are that unless a hose has actually burst and it has run out of water etc, then you'd have to be a peanut to try and drive it at this point, no power, gauge in the red, warning lamps on....:D:(

JC

I bought a scan gauge from the US that gives me instant coolant temp readings as I drive,it fits on the steering column in front of my eye's and for $150 it's a bargain. Pat

[justinc]

I bought a scan gauge from the US that gives me instant coolant temp readings as I drive,it fits on the steering column in front of my eye's and for $150 it's a bargain. Pat

Can you link to it please pat?

thanks,

jc

[dullbird]

I have a scan gauge one of the many items we were told to remove from the car because it was "causing issues" :rolleyes:

Justin there are a number of threads on Defender2 regarding this temp safe mode..I was reading them yesterday....

a number of them have also fitted guages to monitor temp some quite mart ones too might I add..

I personally wonder whether the temp gauge rockets up maybe not because the engine is going to boil but has a fail safe warning that its going to boil when power is cut...because surely no idoit is going to drive a car in the red like you say.

[rick130]

I
[snip]

there are a number of threads on Defender2 regarding this temp safe mode..I was reading them yesterday....

[snip]

I'm sure it's just me but I don't cope too well reading threads over there.
I tend to form opinions of the majority of posters that aren't complimentary and I'm sure aren't correct.....:angel:


Please tell me I'm just becoming a grumpy old intolerant git :D

[dullbird]

hahhahhahaha I only went over there because I knew of a thread about wierd temp fluctuations and I was trying to find it to post a link here for one of our members

[rick130]

hahhahhahaha I only went over there because I knew of a thread about wierd temp fluctuations and I was trying to find it to post a link here for one of our members


Suuure Lou :p

So I'm right in my assumptions then ? :o

[dullbird]

thats the first time I have logged on to Def2 in nearly 2 years...hahhaha

I couldnt comment you have obivously been there more than me...

[rick130]

Touch'e !

although only about three times :p

[PAT303]

Can you link to it please pat?

thanks,

jc

Google Scan Gauge ii,I've got mine set up for litres per 100,volts,boost and coolant temp. Pat

[uninformed]

I bet its not a problem in the UK............:angel:

[BigJon]

I drove my Rangie from Hay to Balranald on Saturday (actually from Dubbo to past Wentworth) at about 120 kph with an outside temperature of 45 plus degrees (the road was liquid in places). At 100 - 110 the clutch fan would cut in and out, at 120 it was locked the whole time. The A/C struggled and there was a lot of heat coming through the floor and firewall (floor too hot to touch) but I didn't lose any power or coolant.

[edddo]

Bigjon how do you know when the viscous fan is locked or unlocked when you are driving?

[BigJon]

Bigjon how do you know when the viscous fan is locked or unlocked when you are driving?

When it is locked it roars very loudly shifting all the air. Especially at about 3000 engine rpm.

[rick130]

Bigjon how do you know when the viscous fan is locked or unlocked when you are driving?

The roar is pretty obvious ;)

[Disco44]

A mate of mine had a Paj,if the gearbox overheated,it would cut the engine,fun when on the beach with the tide coming in.

My sisters nearly new Prado did just that on Straddie.I had previously told her to be wary , having read much on that problem and it did just that...5 mins driving...20 minutes cooling.
The only Landie that I ever had trouble was a 186S powered Ser 3.A bigger Radiater and a change of diffs to 4.1.1 fixed that.
John.

[edddo]

When it is locked it roars very loudly shifting all the air. Especially at about 3000 engine rpm.

hmmm..is it similar to the ones on the tdi's? Should I hear it over the tdi? Because there is no way I could hear anything with my old one or the new one I have just put on. Seems these are very nebulous things to diagnose ( mine seem to always be only viscous or a bit more viscous but never 'locked') and that there is variable quality units out there.

But yesterday after driving at highway speed for an hour or so with air con on I noticed that when I stopped that the aircon fan was on at idle and stayed on when I turned the a/c off. Didnt know that there was a temp threshold above which the air con fans activated independently of the aircon. Would have thought that if it was above this threshold temp that I would have heard the 'viscous roar'...but didnt.

[weeds]

my mates 100 series turns the air-con off once engine temp gets to a pre-determined temp.......this happened when he was touring the simpson desert in oct/nov one year, they could continue on with the windows down

[scarry]

my mates 100 series turns the air-con off once engine temp gets to a pre-determined temp.......this happened when he was touring the simpson desert in oct/nov one year, they could continue on with the windows down

The TD5 will switch off the A/C if the engine is at full throttle.

The viscous fan will also cycle depending on the heat over it, and it has,as said, a loud roar.It is easier to hear if there is a wall on the drivers side of the vehicle as the sound seems to bounce off it.

The track going from east to west on Moreton island had a long steep section in it,and a wall of sand along the drivers side.You could hear the fan cycling continually as you were going along,particularly in hot weather.

[nismine01]

Is there any other way to fit aircon to the vehicle without a engine driven compressor? I too have been watching my block temp gauge when the aircon has been on/off.

Might be an idea for a safety to keep it operational.

H

It isn't the power sucking compressor that is the problem.

It's the condenser, (A/Con radiator that is transferring the heat out of the cabin and dispensing it into the air in front of the radiator) instead of ambient air temp it is heated air going to the radiator.

Cheers
Mike