My new front bar

[disco2_dan]

Hi guys just wondering what u all thought of my new bar, also any suggestions on where to get an after market wiper bottle that will fit under the bonnet? It's the v8 cheers guys

[disco2_dan]

Sorry they are upside down but can't work out how to turn em up on the phone

[TD50WA]

Looks good, is it airbag certified?

Kev

[OffTrack]

Not a chance. It's a UK-sourced "off-road use only" job.

[disco2_dan]

I don't believe it is but I was told everything should still work fine, but as I'm disconnecting my air bags soon any way it doesn't really matter

[winaje]

I'm disconnecting my air bags soon any way
May I ask why you're doing so?

[Scouse]

I don't believe it is but I was told everything should still work fine, but as I'm disconnecting my air bags soon any way it doesn't really matterReally?
SRS or SLS??

[disco2_dan]

May I ask why you're doing so?

I'm not a fan of air bags, I don't wana have a little touch up off road and set em off, and also I've been in a car when we were doin 110kmh on the way to ale and the airbags went off for no reason what so ever and my mate crashed and I ended up with a bloody nose and broken ribs, also I was in a major crash in a 2008 hsv and the air bags never even deployed, now I know I'm prob the exception to all the good stories of air bags but I've done all sorts of stuff in paddock bashers, crashed em rolled em played tag in them and they never had air bags and I never even got whip lash, so i just figure I will save my self the couple grand to get them reset if the ever go off, but I'm always open to being convinced other wise :)

[disco2_dan]

Really?
SRS or SLS??


I'm not sure to be honest, I don't even know how to check?
The guy I bought the bar off is a retired LR mechanic of 25 odd years so I was only taking his word for it

[Yorkie]

i think you will find it takes quite a hit to set the airbags (srs) off in the d2, have driven mine into rock walls offroad and nothing, nada, zip.
removing them will also breach safety rules so technically if you were in a prang and it was deemed they did not go off because your input then you will be roasted.
leave them in and worry and about the other issues that befall a d2 first. :)

[winaje]

Hi Dan. I doubt that "a little touch up off road" will deploy them. I had an idiot stomp on the brakes in front of me once and I centre punched him at 40km/h, didn't deploy them (not much left of his '76 VW Golf though). Personally I would leave them and work on the principle that they are there when you hopefully don't need them. They also work in conjunction with explosive seat belt pretensioners that tighten the front belts, so I assume you'd have to remove these too...

I also agree with Yorkie. Removing them could open Pandora's Box in the event of an accident

[disco2_dan]

I wasn't actually going to remove them just the fuse for them, but i might just leave them be, I never heard of the seat belt thing either, prob just leave em be as I really don't wana mess up the electrics in the truck as like u say could be a Pandora's box type incedent, I'm more worried about getting my Ashcroft CDL kit in before the 19th as I wanted to go on the newnes trek with some of the guys off here so I can learn how to (and more so how not too) use the TC properly,

[walker]

I have been going through this dilemma with myself for the past week.

I really like the First Four tube bar which is very similar to Dan's, but it is necessary to remove the crush cans to install the bar. Like Dan, I think if you start removing crush cans then my next step would be to disconnect the SRS.

While Will is correct that it takes a fair knock to set off the bags, the necessary force may be a lot less if you don't have crush cans fitted and I wouldn't want them going off with a little bump in the bush. While you are safer with SRS, and forgetting the legal implications, many of us drive Defenders, D1's and Rangies with no SRS fitted and no one complains.

However, because of the legal implications, I have decided to go the xrox bar route and stay ADR compliant.

[biggin]

The crush cans are removed for the xrox bar install as well.

[walker]

Really!!!! So how are they still airbag compliant? Maybe the crush cans have little to do with the airbags then.

[OffTrack]

Really!!!! So how are they still airbag compliant? Maybe the crush cans have little to do with the airbags then.

The problem is that unless the Vehicle Manufacture approves the bull bar, the bar has to be crash tested to verify it doesn't interfere with the air bag system triggering. The lack of crash cans may have no bearing, but unless the manufacturer/importer has had the bar full scale barrier tested - which would require pranging a vehicle to test - it isn't certified. This is why the guys importing bars from the UK keep quiet about air bag compliance, or hide behind the "for competition/off road use only" disclaimer.

This is the VicRoads info on bull bars:


Vehicles fitted with an air bag or manufactured to comply
with Australian Design Rule (ADR) 69 or ADR 73, can only
be fitted with a bull bar which:-

• Has been certified by the vehicle manufacturer as
suitable for that vehicle; or,

• Has been demonstrated by the bull bar manufacturer
to not adversely affect the vehicle’s compliance with
ADR 69 or ADR 73 or interfere with any critical air bag
timing mechanism as the case may be.

Demonstration of compliance with ADR 69 or ADR 73
requires full scale barrier testing. Similarly demonstrating
that the critical air bag timing mechanism is not affected
when a bull bar is fitted may also require full scale barrier
testing.

ADR 69 applies to all new model passenger cars
manufactured on or after 1 July 1995.
ADR 73 applies to all new model passenger cars not
exceeding 2.5 tonnes GVM, manufactured on or after
1 January 2000.

[disco2_dan]

I had to remove the crash cans out but only due to a lip off the side of the cans, as far as I could see I don't know what the crash cans have to do with the air bags, all the sensors for the air bags are behind the front grill? I may be mistaken but there were no sensors in or near the crash cans?

[winaje]

Dan, this may be worth reading...
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/115739-how-does-srs-airbag-system-d2-work.html

[CJT]

Really!!!! So how are they still airbag compliant? Maybe the crush cans have little to do with the airbags then.

With the XROX, ARB and TJM bars the standard Land Rover crush cans are removed, however they are replaced with the manufacturers own crush cans to suit their specific bulbar.

And all of the above bars are certified airbag compliant by the manufacturer etc.

[CJT]

I had to remove the crash cans out but only due to a lip off the side of the cans, as far as I could see I don't know what the crash cans have to do with the air bags, all the sensors for the air bags are behind the front grill? I may be mistaken but there were no sensors in or near the crash cans?

If I remember correctly, the D2 utilises two decelerometers mounted inside the transmission tunnel for the airbag activation.

One sensor is an electronic unit, while the other is a magnetic unit.

The issue with removing crush cans completely is there is no longer a point in the vehicle to "squash" and the entire force will be applied to he chassis, I am assuming that this could in turn set off the airbags sooner than they would normally with crush cans in place.

[Yorkie]

The issue with removing crush cans completely is there is no longer a point in the vehicle to "squash" and the entire force will be applied to he chassis, I am assuming that this could in turn set off the airbags sooner than they would normally with crush cans in place.

which one could also assume would mean little deformation which would lessen the impact of the object you were hitting. now if that were a small car could make all the difference in an accident.

not much i'm sure but all counts.

[disco2_dan]

Dan, this may be worth reading...
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/115739-how-does-srs-airbag-system-d2-work.html

Very interesting stuff!! So I wonder what the sensors I was looking at were?

[TD50WA]

Maybe I can clarify srs and crush cans a bit.

In my experience as a crash investigator in the past I have had numerous dealings with the experts regarding court matters on this subject.

The sensors in any car send a signal to the computer. There will be accelerometers to measure the amount of deceleration involved in the impact. The computer program that receives these messages has the job of deploying the airbags and the seatbelt pretensioners in sequence so as to time all the systems together so that the body hits the airbag at exactly the right time.

If the car is altered in any way that changes the deceleration of the car because crush zones, or impact absorption areas are now doing their respective jobs on a different curve, remember this takes place in milliseconds, the the timing will be out.

This means that a body can hit the airbag too late and it has already deflated ( an airbag inflates by explosive charge and immediately deflates, but in a controlled manner, again in milliseconds), this will result in injuries that should have been avoided.
Alternatively, and much much worse, the body can hit the airbag when it is still inflating. Imaging your face hitting something traveling at several hundred kilometers per hour......remember an airbag inflated by explosive charge and fully inflates in milliseconds.
There is cases where airbags have caused death because of early deployment for whatever reason. That's why they have big stickers on them saying "may cause death or serious injury"

Manufacturers of not only bars, but lift kits etc, must show that their product has no effect on the operation and deployment of the srs system.
In most cases crush cans are designed in to accommodate this requirement, but some others may meet the standard without crushcans.

The manufacturer remains liable should it be shown that their product cause injury because of non compliance or defect. Likewise if you fit an item that you know to be non compliant and injury results, you will be held liable for the outcome. I have seen this result too many times in court.

People have made comment that they will do it anyway because even 32" tyres are illegal. This may be so, but those tyres, albeit illegal are unlikely to cause death whereas alterations that effect srs deployment are far more likely to have a bad outcome.

It is also illegal to remove an airbag system or disable it in any way. You could lose your house over it.....let alone your life, or someone else's life, your child's maybe?

The law is not always an ass, sometimes it has a very good basis.

Think about it.

Cheers all, hope this helps.

Kev

[biggin]

Really!!!! So how are they still airbag compliant? Maybe the crush cans have little to do with the airbags then.

The xrox has steel plates with folds in them which must replicate the action of the crush cans.

[Pen48]

Believe me it must take a lot to set off the air bags. I hit an emu (big mother) doing approx 100k's on the dirt. Smashed the useless genuine brush bar into the front, bent the bonnet, the radiator support panel, trans, engine & a/c condensers into a banana shape and never set them off.
cheers,
Pen