Front recovery points - what's the worst that could happen?

[Yerok30]

almost catastrophic failure.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/1014.jpg (http://imgur.com/CrCVs)

this could have easily destroyed my alloy bull bar. I guess its my fault for not doing a search for their strength.

[Eevo]

tie down points
not recovery points

thanks for the pics!

[onebob]

ugly eh! - Yup they're designed to function as a TOW point for a rolling vehicle - not a stuck one;)

[Yerok30]

ugly eh! - Yup they're designed to function as a TOW point for a rolling vehicle - not a stuck one;)


tie down points
not recovery points

thanks for the pics!

yeah I didnt know that at the time.

I just thought I was buying a vehicle designed for 4x4ing.

mates rodeo has done many recoveries off a point that looks weaker than this.

[mistajoel]

What snatched you out? Must have been fairly trying ;) either that or you were really really stuck...

[justinc]

yeah I didnt know that at the time.

I just thought I was buying a vehicle designed for 4x4ing.

mates rodeo has done many recoveries off a point that looks weaker than this.

that is incorrect. the hook is fine, some nong has attached it to a substandard point.

stuff the ally bar, it could've killed someone if it had let go.

when will we have to start getting proper engineering inspections for self installed recovery points? hopefully soon.

jc

[Yerok30]

What snatched you out? Must have been fairly trying ;) either that or you were really really stuck...

i actually snatched out the before mentioned rodeo and a 200 series land cruiser from indian head bypass on fraser island

[OffTrack]

tie down points
not recovery points

thanks for the pics!

The tie down loops are welded to the chassis behind the front wheels. The bolt on hoop is a tow point for on-road recovery. But still the stress is on on-road, definitely not for off-road.

[Yerok30]

[/B]

that is incorrect. the hook is fine, some nong has attached it to a substandard point.

stuff the ally bar, it could've killed someone if it had let go.

when will we have to start getting proper engineering inspections for self installed recovery points? hopefully soon.

jc

the hook is no where near safe.
no one was within 50m of the recovery.
I am getting some rated recovery points professionally installed ASAP.
Thank you for your comment

[Yerok30]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp5v8KPE8D8

[justinc]

the hook is no where near safe.
no one was within 50m of the recovery.
I am getting some rated recovery points professionally installed ASAP.
Thank you for your comment

Actually that is most probably a rated aftermarket hook which is in use by many, safely, BUT it is attached to a totally unsuitable point, the factory tow ring. This is a classic example of a tear out failure caused by too much load, causing a moment about the top bolt. In order for that tow ring bracket to be anywhere suitable to anchor a recovery hook to, in excess of M12 Grade 8.8 bolts and plate exceeding 6mm will be required. Then you would face the possibility of a failure of the front chassis fixing points as you would have to drill out the existing holes etc to accomodate the M12 bolts...See where this is heading???

Using this bracket for a recovery is very dangerous, As you have seen.

I'm glad decent points are being installed Pronto, I am hoping others are seeing this and taking heed.


I have some decent ones for my ARB bar, I'll try and take pics and post them up sometime soon, they aren't installed yet. As usual I have fitted many sets to customers cars, but mine waits , and waits, and waits:(

JC :)

[scarry]

The other issue with the D2 is,it is often difficult to fit a good recovery point,depending what type of bar you have fitted.

From memory i think it is the ECB bar that causes issues as it has a low skirt across the front and actually makes the factory tow point impossible to use as well.

[TD50WA]

At the Perth 4wd show I spoke to a rep from ARB. He had a d2 as well. I asked about recovery points.
He said that ARB sells optional recovery points for the d2.

I asked about the bar recovery points, if you need the option ones, why were they on there at all?

He said that the bars are designed for recovery, remember the winch is within the bar and the crush cans etc are all engineered to withstand recovery operations. ARB has been making bars like this for many years and could not survive legally as liability for bars breaking and any injuries would be theirs as the bar designer and accreditor.

He said a bridle was recommended for snatching situations. I then posed the question if the bar was ok, why did they then make the optional recovery hooks?

He said because people always abuse and go outside guidelines and don't use proper gear when doing recoveries, so therefore a idiot proof hook was needed.
But for people who actually do things correctly, the bar is well within its limits for recovery (using the built in recovery points). He himself only uses the bar. He pointed out that the bar design is now over 10 years old and if there was any serious design issues, it would have been fixed long before now.

I have an ARB bar, but as yet not needed to hook up to it, so I don't know. Common sense tells me that a professional bar designed for the purpose should be ok......maybe the bar for normal recoveries and some option hooks for extra safety when in the poo....

Cheers
Kev

[northiam]

So my ARB deluxe bar (non winch) recovery points are also ok?
Deluxe bull bar | Products | ARB 4x4 Accessories (http://www.arb.com.au/products/arb-protection-equipment/bull-bars/deluxe-bull-bars/3232060/)

[TD50WA]

So my ARB deluxe bar (non winch) recovery points are also ok?
Deluxe bull bar | Products | ARB 4x4 Accessories (http://www.arb.com.au/products/arb-protection-equipment/bull-bars/deluxe-bull-bars/3232060/)

I have no idea mate......you'd have to ask ARB I guess, is there a difference between a winch and non winch bar in mounts? Strength?

Cheers
Kev

[Disco Muppet]

If you're referring to the eyelets on the bar, the debate about using them as dedicated recovery points is pretty extensive.
Theoretically you shouldn't use them, as the bar is secured by the crush cans, which are kinda important, and supposedly the forces of a strenuous recovery can have a negative impact on the crush cans.
However in practice, I know several people who recover off their bar and have no dramas.
Then again, the only way to observe any impaired crush can performance would be to have them crash and then look at how the crush cans performed, which is something we like to avoid :D
Personally (completely non professional opinion) I'd avoid using them, and go for some dedicated recovery points mounted BEHIND the concertina point on the crush cans :)
The ones on the bar might be easier to access if you're nose down in mud, but a snatch or winch recovery isn't really something you want to take shortcuts with :)
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/108967-recovery-points-discovery-1-2-a.html
Have a squiz, I've got a pair of these and they're tops.
Cheers
Muppet

[TD50WA]

Cheers Muppet, I understand what you are saying about the crush cans, rather have then in perfect order if they are ever required......

I did ask about them and was told that the forces required to cause any issues to the crush cans was unlikely to be reach in a recovery situation as this had been considered already, remember the winch is already pulling on those even if you hook the wire on a tree, or return to another off bar point.

The design of the bar has been developed to cover those forces.....

But, I think I will get some others just for insurance, considering my understanding of the srs system and crush cans, I'd rather have them perfect than chance some damage.

I have emailed ARB to get something in writing though....just out of curiosity.

I'll have a look at your link in a minute.

Cheers
Kev

[Disco Muppet]

You'll get different responses from different ARB stores, some say it's fine, some say no, some say it's fine but as long as you do XY and Z.
AFAIK the crush cans are set to deform at 18t applied pressure, however that's when it's pushing into the cans, as opposed to pulling on them.
You can get them engineered so that they have the same rating for pulls, but it's not worth it.
Besides, I think it's more of an issue with the SRS sensors :)

[clubagreenie]

There's only one SRS sensor. Inside the vehicle, under the centre consul.

The xrox crush cans are massive steel units. Especially by comparison to the alloy/steel pinned original parts fitted. They have two holes in the bar outside the hawse hole for the winch to allow two eye bolts to be fitted. The bar has extra plating behind these. I have winched and been winched off these (equalised) and nevr had an issue. I have also fitted larger bolts (12mm from 10mm) as the 10mm were just too small in the holes, 12mm it the chassis and only a little filing was needed on the rough cut mount holes. Doesn't move on the mounts and the eyes are at a level that can be reached.

The ARB ayes on the underside of the bar I see more than not bent in from using an equalising strap.

[TD50WA]

Yep, fair call fellas, this is my first ARB bar, I have a TJM on my other car.

Will get some "real" points and fit up, better to err on the side of caution methinks.;)

Cheers
Kev

[Tombie]

Hey Muppet...

That "crush can/ARB" line is BS :)

It's been explained at length before..

[newlandyowner]

I once snatched my disco out of sand using the ARB bull bar snatch point. I was pretty stuck, there was nothing else to snatch off. It did work, but never again.

As soon as I got back to Perth I ordered some Troutbeck front recovery points and put them on.
The bull bar points were elongated after the recovery, plus I reckon you could easily damage your bull bar or worse, some one.

I'll try get a picture up for you of the damaged recovery point and the replacement Troutbeck ones.

[R2D2]

I fitted these 4x4 engineering points.
Mounts are only as strong as the hardware securing them.
I showed the ARB pic to a bloke at ARB and he said they were not thiers.Cheers
R2
55494
55492
55493

[Disco Muppet]

Hey Muppet...

That "crush can/ARB" line is BS :)

It's been explained at length before..

IIRC it's been debated at length before, without a clear cut and dry yes or no response ;)
Couldn't find the really extensive thread in which it was covered.
But still, the eyelets aren't designed for snatch recoveries.
A dedicated and rated set is still the way to go IMHO
Cheers
Muppet

[northiam]

So
A bar winch is good for a 6000kg winch recovery but not a snatch one:confused:

[clubagreenie]

My solution is never use a snatch strap. I'll pull out the winch and recover myself first.

[Disco Muppet]

So
A bar winch is good for a 6000kg winch recovery but not a snatch one:confused:

A winch is a slow steady pull.
Snatch recoveries usually involve some shock loading.
Perhaps Tombie knows the thread explaining it, as I'm just going off memory here.
Like Cluba, I much prefer to use my winch than a snatch strap :)
It's not so much the issue of it being on the cans.
It's that the eyelets are not designed to cope with the shock loads associated with snatching.
Plenty of reading material out there, I'll duck into my local ARB store later today for an official yay or nay if you'd like :)

[Mundy]

My LR specialist says that simply replacing the tie down brackets with strengthened and rated recovery points onto the chassis rail isn't sufficient as the chassis connection point is also not strong enough and can rip out. I've had the connection point on the chassis strengthened too.

[TD50WA]

My LR specialist says that simply replacing the tie down brackets with strengthened and rated recovery points onto the chassis rail isn't sufficient as the chassis connection point is also not strong enough and can rip out. I've had the connection point on the chassis strengthened too.

Sounds like a good point but the srs system works on a known deceleration rate built into the srs computer. The rate is engineered into the cars panel and body including chassis rails. If this rate is altered by addition of bars (hence bars having to be airbag compliant) or changes to the chassis/body (such as strengthening the chassis around the mounts as you said) this can alter the information the srs system needs to safely deploy the airbags.

Was that strengthening engineered and tested to comply with the srs system? If not, you could be held responsible if someone gets injured in a crash.

If the chassis is too soft in the first place, this is probably by design for impact and crush in the event of a collision.

It may be that what you have done is completely safe, but I'd want it in writing from an approved certified engineer first, ......

Sticking to winching sounds like a fair choice......

[Mundy]

......Sticking to winching sounds like a fair choice......

I agree. However, as a mate once said to me, the art of 4wding is not in knowing what equipment to have to get yourself out of trouble, its in not getting yourself into trouble in the first place. Of course, s**t happens, in which case, use a winch first and only snatch if you can't avoid it.

[EchiDna]

the hook is no where near safe.
no one was within 50m of the recovery.
I am getting some rated recovery points professionally installed ASAP.
Thank you for your comment

Given nobody was within 50m, I guess its safe to say there was nobody driving either vehicle then eh?

stating the obvious perhaps, but be realistic, the bloke in the driver's seat remains at risk

[Statusquo]

I fitted these 4x4 engineering points.
Mounts are only as strong as the hardware securing them.
I showed the ARB pic to a bloke at ARB and he said they were not thiers.Cheers
R2
55494
55492
55493
I have the same ones on mine, apparently fitted by ARB Thomastown..for the original owner..I showed the boys up here and they also said.".never seen them before"...with ARB stickers still on them....Never used them, and after reading this I don't think I will be.

[R2D2]

#Statusquo
I dont know the thickness of the ARB points but i can tell you the 4x4eng ones are 5/8 or 16mm thick. The only thing that will let go in a recovery WILL be the bolts if anything. You could tow a B double with these mounts. From memory the bolt are 12mm gr 8.8 or 10.9 or 1/2 gr8.
I believe many of the forum members use the 4x4 eng points.
The idea is to not get stuck in the first place.

As has been said before " a chain is only as strong as its weekest link"
cheers
R2

[Disco Muppet]

The idea is to not get stuck in the first place.
R2

Sometimes it's very difficult to avoid getting stuck.
I'd say the best idea is to ensure that
a) your vehicle is properly equipped to handle a vigorous recovery attempt
and b) you perform said recovery correctly, doing everything possible to minimise the risk.

If you have suitable high tensile bolts securing your recovery points, and you don't recover like an idiot you should be fine.
If you want to be really pedantic, replace the bolts after x number of strenuous recoveries like you do with snatch straps.
Cheers
Muppet

[schuy1]

Just as a matter of interest what tyre pressures were OP and the others running? Bit hard to tell from the vid but the walls look to be standing up fairly well.
And yes shock loadings can be very much higher than winching pulls, up to double an engineer mate told me :o

Cheers Scott

[Yerok30]

Just as a matter of interest what tyre pressures were OP and the others running? Bit hard to tell from the vid but the walls look to be standing up fairly well.
And yes shock loadings can be very much higher than winching pulls, up to double an engineer mate told me :o

Cheers Scott

D2 18psi, rodeo 18psi, land cruiser when it was stuck was 30psi, during recovery 18psi.

[Yerok30]

this was definitely a big recovery and would have been close to 5 tonne of bogged car. in future i will use the tow hitch for big recoveries.

I am not really interested in winches. if you cant drive there your self I don't see the point. being dragged to places isn't 4x4ing.

this broke because I was trying to help a family out so they could get back to enjoying their holiday, to remove the danger from the bypass and in the hope that if this happens to me other will help out.

I didn't get bogged the whole trip but I bought a set of recovery tracks for my trip next weekend they are the single best option for beach recoveries.

[Yerok30]

Given nobody was within 50m, I guess its safe to say there was nobody driving either vehicle then eh?

stating the obvious perhaps, but be realistic, the bloke in the driver's seat remains at risk

there is no possible way that the tow point could ever end up hitting a person in the drivers seat in this situation. stating the obvious perhaps, but be realistic, the load is in the complete opposite direction. worst case scenario, if it broke when the strap was 100% stretched and was at the right angle, it would hit the back of the rodeo causing some panel damage.

[disco2_dan]

the hook is no where near safe.
no one was within 50m of the recovery.
I am getting some rated recovery points professionally installed ASAP.
Thank you for your comment

Except the people in the 4wds :)

[schuy1]

Some panel damage? :o I have seen pics of a point that failed and the steel mount went through the rear doors of a cruiser, through some luggage and embedded itself in the back of the rear seat! Could be classed as "Some panel damage" I suppose :/ Never Ever under estimate the kinetic energy stored in a strap, chain, or wire rope! Never!

I found this on Utube. gives you some idea of the power! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YR22oP1WRtY

[Statusquo]

#Statusquo
I dont know the thickness of the ARB points but i can tell you the 4x4eng ones are 5/8 or 16mm thick. The only thing that will let go in a recovery WILL be the bolts if anything. You could tow a B double with these mounts. From memory the bolt are 12mm gr 8.8 or 10.9 or 1/2 gr8.
I believe many of the forum members use the 4x4 eng points.
The idea is to not get stuck in the first place.

As has been said before " a chain is only as strong as its weekest link"
cheers
R2

Cheers R2, will measure up and advise...I've got all the gear but as yet remain unstuck, it's only a matter of time so I'm looking for peace of mind that's for sure!:o

Measured..10mm plates with 10mm bolts and locknuts..

[Yerok30]

Some panel damage? :o I have seen pics of a point that failed and the steel mount went through the rear doors of a cruiser, through some luggage and embedded itself in the back of the rear seat! Could be classed as "Some panel damage" I suppose :/ Never Ever under estimate the kinetic energy stored in a strap, chain, or wire rope! Never!

I found this on Utube. gives you some idea of the power! 4 wd damaged by a snatch strap - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YR22oP1WRtY)

I have seen that. definitely something to be wary of.

failure like that sounds quite amazing. you don't happen to have any pics?

you can be sure i wont over estimate the build quality of my car again.

[Yerok30]

Except the people in the 4wds :)



if you have any ideas as to how I can drive my car while not being inside of it I am happy to hear it.

[ozscott]

I have seen that. definitely something to be wary of.

failure like that sounds quite amazing. you don't happen to have any pics?

you can be sure i wont over estimate the build quality of my car again.

Yerok its not about the build quality of your car but rather using things for what Mr LR designed them for mate. A lot of large 4wd vehicles only have tie down points for slide tray and similar use only. The d2 chassis is built like a brick outhouse and heavy duty recovery points mounted aft of the crush cans are the go.

Cheers

[disco2_dan]

if you have any ideas as to how I can drive my car while not being inside of it I am happy to hear it.

I was only referring to the fact you said no one was within 50m of it, I've seen snatch straps break and its amazing the amount of stored energy there is there, they scare me a little especially when I see your recovery point and think that could be attached to the end of it :)

[roverrescue]

"I guess its my fault for not doing a search for their strength."

I disagree, that point failed not only due to insufficient material at the lower through hole but also CORROSION. But the most significant reason for failure was dynamic recovery.
So really it was your fault for not checking the safety of the point and overloading it in a dynamic recovery?

You may not "want a winch" but hang around long enough and you will one day stop using snatch straps too. I am yet to find a situation where a dynamic recovery was safer than a static recovery (quicker perhaps but never safer)

The more stuck at the worst time (below the tide on a rising tide)
Only forces me to use a more static and safe recovery technique.
Exploding snatches occur when people are stressed and rushing and not checking the obvious.

IMO of course!

Steve

[clubagreenie]

I remember many, many, many, many, (etc) years ago on a Land Rover club trip up the MacDonald River (up the bed) and remember well the sounds of straps breaking repeatedly. I would have been about 6 or 7 and the straps would break, get tied back together and break again. When too short get another broken one and make one from two. Never used one in my life, the prime reason I'' buy individual recovery bits rather than a kit is I don't want the included mandatory snatch strap nor do I want to pass it onto someone else.

[gavinwibrow]

Someone was asking for a pic - this might help - its the 4DE version or whatever its called.

Ignore the little chrome bit near the top - the recovery point just been used as a convenient access to attach an elasticised holder for the bottom of my radiator screen/waterbra (which was taken from a defender and only partially successful as the disco is a bit wider).

[Yerok30]

that point failed not only due to insufficient material at the lower through hole but also CORROSION. But the most significant reason for failure was dynamic recovery.
So really it was your fault for not checking the safety of the point and overloading it in a dynamic recovery.

Yes you are correct, over loading the point was the main problem.
corrosion is minimal this happened they i spent 3 days on the beach so bare metal and salt air make it look worse than what it is.



You may not "want a winch" but hang around long enough and you will one day stop using snatch straps too. I am yet to find a situation where a dynamic recovery was safer than a static recovery (quicker perhaps but never safer)

no one ever uses winches on the beach, not even the tag along tours even though they are legally required to have them. snatch straps are the recovery method on the beach. 9 times out of 10 the stuck vehicle just needs a little bit of help to get it out of the whole after it gets dug out.
I hope that these recovery tracks are good enough that i can leave my snatch strap relatively unused.

[Yerok30]

Someone was asking for a pic - this might help - its the 4DE version or whatever its called.

I emailed these guys and I haven't got a reply. maybe i should call the guy.

[Slunnie]

Someone was asking for a pic - this might help - its the 4DE version or whatever its called.

Ignore the little chrome bit near the top - the recovery point just been used as a convenient access to attach an elasticised holder for the bottom of my radiator screen/waterbra (which was taken from a defender and only partially successful as the disco is a bit wider).

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/discovery-2/55621d1358308176-front-recovery-points-whats-worst-could-happen-recovery-points.jpg

Doesnt your ARB bar have the recovery points on it. :eek:

[TD50WA]

Only the first ARB bar had the recovery points, or should I say "tow" points, the update model bar came without.

Cheers
Kev

[gavinwibrow]

Doesnt your ARB bar have the recovery points on it. :eek:
No Slunnie it never had them. Bar was fitted new in Jan/Feb 2005, so maybe ARB had taken them away by then?

Oops. Just read bigkevs post

[Yerok30]

I can confirm that 4x4DE is not selling anything right now, he is in between manufacturers. ARB dont sell recovery points. and i cant find anything at all about troutbeck.
but the guy from APT fabrication was really easy to talk to and answered my questions without a worry, he knows exactly what he is talking about. and 120 a pair is a pretty good deal considering 4x4DE is 150 'on sale'

[isuzurover]

no one ever uses winches on the beach, ....

obviously not...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/616.jpg
http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/pullpal00/pullpal.jpg

Your original comment about winches did not specify beach only. There are a lot of great parts of OZ you need a 4x4 to get to that aren't on the beach...

[disco2_dan]

I've used one off these before, from memory the are called a land anchor?? It was very effective once we got it set properly

[isuzurover]

I've used one off these before, from memory the are called a land anchor?? It was very effective once we got it set properly


There are various names for them - generally something (ground / land / sand / recovery) then "anchor".

However you can just bury your spare tyre with the same effect.

[winaje]

There are various names for them - generally something (ground / land / sand / recovery) then "anchor".

Also known as a Portable Rescue Tree, from memory

[Yerok30]

obviously not...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/616.jpg
http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/pullpal00/pullpal.jpg

Your original comment about winches did not specify beach only. There are a lot of great parts of OZ you need a 4x4 to get to that aren't on the beach...

its not a question of whether or not a winch is usable its the simple fact that its uncommon for people to use them. self recovery usually involves a shovel but there is always people around to help out.

I would prefer to spend the money on coil over suspension than on a winch.

that is a really nice looking YJ, i dont know why we never got them here.

[CJT]

You can also get these for the D2.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/108967-recovery-points-discovery-1-2-a.html

[schuy1]

Re the pics of the failed point penetrating the recovery vehicle, I have looked and for the life of me can not find it now. I think it was in an old 4b mag of mid 80s vintage from memory, SWMBO may have pyro'ed it by now :( Cant find anything online that resembles it Sorry.
Cheers Scott

[Yerok30]

You can also get these for the D2.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/verandah/108967-recovery-points-discovery-1-2-a.html

my brother in-law has bought stuff off of them and he wasn't satisfied with their service. his mates have had the same experience. it seems like a common occurrence in ARB stores, but i am sure there are good ones out there.

[CJT]

my brother in-law has bought stuff off of them and he wasn't satisfied with their service. his mates have had the same experience. it seems like a common occurrence in ARB stores, but i am sure there are good ones out there.

I would have to say that I have always had exceptional service at UV4x4 :)

[bob10]

Re the pics of the failed point penetrating the recovery vehicle, I have looked and for the life of me can not find it now. I think it was in an old 4b mag of mid 80s vintage from memory, SWMBO may have pyro'ed it by now :( Cant find anything online that resembles it Sorry.
Cheers Scott

There have been a number of accidents where the recovery strap has been connected to a towball.Bob

[bob10]

This has been discussed before, the end result was no recovery points have been engineered for Discovery vehicles. I bought the MR Auto ones, and they confirmed this. It is not recommended you recover off the ARB bar, it should be towing only. The points I bought off MR were attached to the chassis, using the the same bolt holes the bar uses, the bar and points share the attachment point, longer bolts of the correct tensile strength are needed. Bob [ some more info from ARB]

From the earlier discussion;



The discussion on recovery points led me to do some research on just what , if any , Australian standard or ADR requirement was related to recovery points. Short answer- NONE. MR Auto. do not test or rate their recovery points. According to ARB Queensland, ARB are the only company in Australia currently doing design & development of recovery points. So far only five vehicles have ARB engineer designed & tested points :

Mazda BT50/ Ford Ranger
Toyota Landcruiser 70 series
Toyota Hi-lux 2005 on
Nissan GU Patrol 3,0 l. 2002 0n



" Currently there is no Australian Standard that relates to vehicle recovery points, nor an ADR requirement and to ARB's knowledge very few vehicle manufacturers claim their tow points to be rated for vehicle recovery. Other items like bow shackles that are used to connect recovery straps do have mandatory standards but these apply to their use as a lifting device and the safety margins required for lifting gear and the proof loads used to test these components are far too high to be practically applied to vehicle recovery use.
With this in mind, ARB has from the outset of this project, sought to set a new industry benchmark for how recovery points are designed, tested, & selected by customers.This concept has been christened the ' recovery train' which like the drive train of a vehicle , comprises a series of connected & matched components.

There are many types of generic tow hooks available on the market rated to 10000 lbs or similar, and whilst these may be suitably rated for vehicle recovery, their design is not vehicle specific & therefore mounting of these hooks is left in the hands of the purchaser with no information on how or where to mount on their vehicle. This then leaves the question on whether the surface they have been mounted to can handle the load exerted on the hook during a recovery. " It goes on to say; " One of the largest users of recovery equipment are organisations that have fleets of 4wd vehicles working in mines or remote area environments & ARB has worked closely with these large fleet owners to ensure the design & function of the recovery points are compatible with their OH&S requirements' " and:

" An important design requirement was the ability for the points to be rated in a angled direction of pull and this has been achieved for angles up to the max. turn angle of the front wheels of the vehicle. The ARB recovery points have a long slot that allows the recommended bow shackle to be fed through and the strap attached via the pin instead of the bow. This allows even distribution of the recovery force through the shackle to avoid side loads on the pin.Side loads on the pin invoke forces that tend to open up the shackle, putting unwanted load on its weakest point, the pin threads."

and some more;



ARB Recovery Equipment


http://www.arb.com.au/media/products/recovery/recoverypoint_main.jpg

Recovery Points

Strong, reliable recovery points are essential for off road driving but the lack of industry standards regarding rated tow points has caused confusion among four wheel drivers for many years. With this in mind, ARB has sought to set a new industry benchmark for how recovery points are designed, tested and selected by 4WDers.
ARB’s recovery point range seeks to address issues surrounding generic tow points and their unsuitability for a range of recovery situations. These issues include questionable and untested mounting locations, confusion regarding the selection of rated shackles and straps, and the inability of generic tow points to safely handle stresses generated by an angled pull during vehicle recovery.

There are huge advantages to the ARB range in terms of simplifying the selection of recovery points and associated equipment. Like the drive train of a vehicle which comprises a series of connected and matched components, ARB has engineered a ‘Recovery Train’ in which the vehicle specific recovery point is rated for use with a 4.75t rated bow shackle and 8000kg snatch strap.

Each ARB recovery point is built from the ground up and undergoes considerable research and design involving actual vehicle chassis samples and CAD data relating to critical front sections of the vehicle. Dozens of designs are explored, with the more promising models built into prototypes and tested on the actual vehicle chassis using ARB’s various load and destructive testing equipment.
Some vehicle models demand very complex mounting systems to ensure fitment does not affect air bag deployment in the event of an accident. But with months of design and testing dedicated to each individual recovery point, ARB’s engineers ensure that the crush pulse of the vehicle remains unaffected, whilst also ensuring the recovery points are fitted in the optimal location to handle the stresses experienced during vehicle recovery.

An important design requirement is the ability of these points to be rated in an angled direction of pull and this has been achieved for angles up to the maximum turn angle of the front wheels of the vehicle. With this requirement came questions of how the snatch strap is attached to the point, and for this reason ARB recovery points have a long slot that allows the bow of the shackle to be fed through and the strap attached via the pin instead of the bow. This allows the shackle to pivot within the recovery points to avoid side loads on the pin.



Supported by a two year warranty, ARB currently manufactures recovery points for the following vehicles:

Pre 2011 Mazda BT-50
Pre 2011 Ford Ranger
Toyota HiLux 2005 On
Toyota LandCruiser 70 Series 1999 On
Nissan GU Patrol 3.0L T/D Feb 02 – On
We are continually investing in research and development for new products. Please check with your local ARB store for the latest additions to this range and important vehicle specific information

[AndyW]

I would have to say that I have always had exceptional service at UV4x4 :)


I have made three attempts to order the RP4 recovery points by phone now from UV4X4 Enoggera and each time I have spoken to someone who didn't know what I was talking about and was told that the guy who looked after the Landrover stuff would call me back ASAP. In every instance I have not received a return call at all. Not my idea of good service.:mad:

[Eevo]

I have made three attempts to order the RP4 recovery points by phone now from UV4X4 Enoggera and each time I have spoken to someone who didn't know what I was talking about and was told that the guy who looked after the Landrover stuff would call me back ASAP. In every instance I have not received a return call at all. Not my idea of good service.:mad:

ask to speak to Matt
i had the same issue
got my RP03 last week

i got though by emailing and organised it that way

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Interestingly, last night at the LROCS meeting the training officer was giving away NOS ARB DII recovery points. Just like the ones pictures above.

I did pick up a set for another member who wasn't present. There were none left after that.

[bob10]

Interestingly, last night at the LROCS meeting the training officer was giving away NOS ARB DII recovery points. Just like the ones pictures above.

I did pick up a set for another member who wasn't present. There were none left after that.

Chances are they are not tested, or rated. Bob

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I can confirm that 4x4DE is not selling anything right now, he is in between manufacturers. ARB dont sell recovery points. and i cant find ...<snip>Just had a look at the packaging on the recovery points I got last night, they are exactly the same as the ones ones posted by "R2D2"

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

The original packaging has a label "Vehicle specific heavy duty tow point" a part number "TP-DiscoII" "ARB Osborne Park WA".

Inside the pack is an ARB leaflet with a list of pack contents (including 1/2" unc x 5 1/2" bolts) and instructions that it wont fit with a standard bumper and not to use a rattle gun.

My guess they are or at least were genuine ARB (engineered) parts.
Chances are they are not tested, or rated. Bob
Whether ARB sells its parts without testing the design I have no idea!

[bob10]

Just had a look at the packaging on the recovery points I got last night, they are exactly the same as the ones ones posted by "R2D2"

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

The original packaging has a label "Vehicle specific heavy duty tow point" a part number "TP-DiscoII" "ARB Osborne Park WA".

Inside the pack is an ARB leaflet with a list of pack contents (including 1/2" unc x 5 1/2" bolts) and instructions that it wont fit with a standard bumper and not to use a rattle gun.

My guess they are or at least were genuine ARB (engineered) parts.
Whether ARB sells its parts without testing the design I have no idea!
Please read my earlier post, Bob

[Tombie]

Just had a look at the packaging on the recovery points I got last night, they are exactly the same as the ones ones posted by "R2D2"

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/discovery-2/55494d1358125594-front-recovery-points-whats-worst-could-happen-arb-recovery-point.jpg

The original packaging has a label "Vehicle specific heavy duty tow point" a part number "TP-DiscoII" "ARB Osborne Park WA".

Inside the pack is an ARB leaflet with a list of pack contents (including 1/2" unc x 5 1/2" bolts) and instructions that it wont fit with a standard bumper and not to use a rattle gun.

My guess they are or at least were genuine ARB (engineered) parts.
Whether ARB sells its parts without testing the design I have no idea!

And a pair was purchased years ago by 4x4DE and copied.

I know this because I purchased them at the same time from ARB WA.
They were not common to any other ARB store.

Back then I used to sell D2 SLS lift kits to ARB...

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Please read my earlier post, BobWhy?

I'm only describing the parts and packaging.

[winaje]

I have the ARB WA recovery points fitted, with Black Rat 4.7t rated bow shackles. Haven't had any issues on the couple of times I've been recovered.

[Yorkie]

I have these ARB hooks fitted, bought off a fellow forumite in the west on here a while back.

[bob10]

Why?

I'm only describing the parts and packaging.

:D ok, it's just that the points in the photo are the same as other recovery points , supplied by a number of sources, and they seem to be the accepted type for D2's , but according to ARB they have no engineered or rated recovery points for D2's. Nor are any of the others engineered or rated, as far as I know. Where does that leave us , insurance wise, if there is a major problem during recovery? Or , indeed , if someone is hurt? Bob

[TD50WA]

Hi Bob

There are so many variables when it comes to legal responsibility. When a manufacturer sells an item for a specific purpose, they retain the responsibility for its safety AS long as it is fitted and used within their specifications or guidelines.
If they don't supply any details, and the details are not readily available at your request (yes you have a responsibility to ask) then they leave themselves wide open.
If you use or fit the item outside the intended use or direction, the responsibility becomes yours. That's why it's important to ask what limitations are on their goods. This way you know what you can safely use the item for.
The issue is proving how the item was used and what caused the damage. As ARB state, the recovery points are just one item in the chain of recovery so to speak. If you use the correctly rated gear for your vehicle, eg snatch strap rated for a disco, not a mack truck, it should give way before the mounts.
This applies to all your recovery gear and it's the only way to prove which item failed, how it failed and where the responsibility should lay.
Any gear, tested and rated or not can be pushed to failure in extreme situations, but as long as you do things properly, then at least your legal arguement is not stuffed before you even start.....and it's better to break a strap rather than rip off a steel recovery point and launch it into someone isn't it....

As I said, there are many variables when it comes to the law, and the above is just a generalisation of the basics, be aware of the limits of your gear, use it properly and don't abuse it, you can't go to far wrong.

In the case of the above recovery points, the vendor/manufacturer has a responsibility to supply an item that is safe for its intended use. If the was no details supplied with the item, contact the vendor to get them. If there are no guidelines, more fool the vendor/manufacturer, and as long as you use them as I described above, if you are unfortunate to have one let go and someone gets hurt, at least your legal arguement shows you used them appropriately and with reasonable expectation of function.....
On the opposite side, anyone can cut out a bit of steel and call it a recovery point. If they tell you exactly that, and that it's not tested and they will not accept any responsibility if it goes bang, and you subsequently fit it, use it and it does go bang, then you will bare the responsibility because you knowingly fitted an item that was dangerous, likely to cause injury, or not otherwise suitable for purpose.

The law can be complicate, IS very expensive, and can cost you everything you own, or even put you on a little holiday, that's why it's so important to only fit gear, or use gear within the manufacturers specs, or legally approved items. Whilst most of us will go through our lives without coming unstuck, some of us will, and that's when you find out about lawyers......

Please don't take any of this as legal advice, it's just my experience only.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've had 22years dealing with them, learnt a few things on the way...:D

[clubagreenie]

The issue with creating something thats legal is when there's no legal guidelines, approval process or regulatory body no matter what you make and say it's for someone will use it outside it's "approved standard" and the system (read first lawyer on the scene) will ream whoever they think they can because it doesn't meet a standard that doesn't exist.

This will come up in court and it will eventually be thrown out as you can't nail someone for doing something outside a standard that doesn't exits but the lawyers are richer, the seller is bankrupt and someone got hurt but is no better off.

[FenianEel]

I have made three attempts to order the RP4 recovery points by phone now from UV4X4 Enoggera and each time I have spoken to someone who didn't know what I was talking about and was told that the guy who looked after the Landrover stuff would call me back ASAP. In every instance I have not received a return call at all. Not my idea of good service.:mad:

Hey Andy,
Apologies mate, first I have known of this.
I'd love to hear about it, and I'll get you sorted.
I've sent you a PM.
Cheers
Matt

[TD50WA]

[QUOTE=clubagreenie;1844583]The issue with creating something thats legal is when there's no legal guidelines, approval process or regulatory body no matter what you make and say it's for someone will use it outside it's "approved standard" and the system (read first lawyer on the scene) will ream whoever they think they can because it doesn't meet a standard that doesn't exist.

This will come up in court and it will eventually be thrown out as you can't nail someone for doing something outside a standard that doesn't exits but the lawyers are richer, the seller is bankrupt and someone got hurt but is no better off.[/



someone will be responsible.....the designer, the manufacturer, the vendor, the person who fitted it, the person who used (or abused) it, or the owner...or any combination thereof.
only in cases where everything has been done right and a failure still happens to a variable that could not have been foreseen could there be a different outcome....usually.
That is the theory....
The reality is that in court, the truth is irrelevant, it's who tells the best version of it, whose lawyer is better, who the judge is, (jury if it's a jury matter)......there is a saying ....there is your side, their side and then there is the truth.

Look, in the end, you might be right, the court decides on the day that it's too hard and blames no one, but it will take many court appearances, lots of money, your sanity, your health.....even if you win, these things will still be the cost of the experience.....just ask someone who has been thru it.

I personally believe if you make something yourself that has the potential to have a catastrophic failure and cause injury or death, you better know what you are doing and be able to substantiate it in court. Only fit something to you car that is promoted (remember if a manufacturer promotes an item to be able to do a certain job, you have a legal reasonable expectation that it will - as long as it is used within its guidelines),to do a certain job, recovery in this case, and use it appropriately and safely. Most of us here will go through our lives without any issues, maybe the odd "laugh at it now" close calls, but overall, a lot of stories to tell.....but the odds are someone will unfortunately come unstuck, and the law is like gambling, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but I like to have the best odds by hopefully doing things mostly right anyway....:D

But you are absolutely correct in one thing, the lawyer will ALWAYS win.....;)