LT230 diff damage

[Fubar]

G'day,

Whilst taking care of an R380 5th gear failure I thought I'd strip and reco my 230 at the same time. I've done a couple for family on high mileage (350k +) units and expected mine to be pretty fresh at only 154k.

All the thrust washers bar one had disintegrated which had led to an unacceptable level of scoring to the thrust surfaces in the carrier.

I've given up finding a unit that is not in a similar state, I have to get the truck together and can't waste any more time looking for a 2nd hand unit that fits my application and is in decent nick. Though chances are the very second its assembled again, I'll stumble over one for a carton of beer or something similar.

After advice from a few in the trade, and given as a possible solution rather than a tried and true fix I assembled the carrier using Loctite 660 to hold the thrust washers in place to stop them rotating and wearing prematurely. I did a trial run and after tear down, I was less the impressed with the performance of the 660 product. The first time I have ever been disappointed by a Loctite product. The product when set resembled something similar to Araldite with metal filings in it and had a similar hardness/ toughness level, aside from coming apart quite easily I could pick it off the two surfaces without to much effort. The inside of a carrier is a hostile environment and 'glueing' the thrust washers in may working for a very short period, but in my opinion the bonding wont last too long. This applies to the steel inserts provided by a few companies, after a short call today I found the insert they make up are Loctited in as well ($450 plus post either way).

Which leaves two options as far I am concerned. I'm not interested in bandaid fixes so I'll be pulling the trigger on a new replacement unit this week.

Option 1 Roverparts out of Melbourne do a new complete unit for $825 inc GST
Land Rover Parts - TRANSFER GEARBOX - DIFFERENTIAL (http://www.roverparts.com.au/transfer_gearbox___differential)

Option 2 Speak the hallowed name of Quaife three times and grab one of these
QDF30KR - Quaife Engineering (http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qdf30kr)

Best part of $1300, but and the point of my post, I get a traction aid that is full time maybe negating the need to do anything to the diffs at a later date.

What to do? Is the extra coin dropped on the Quaife unit actually going to be realised as an increase in traction?

Cheers,

Jas

n.b. This truck is used as a tourer/hunting rig first and foremost, 'extreme' offroading is not something in my 130's future.

[rick130]

[snip]

Option 2 Speak the hallowed name of Quaife three times and grab one of these
QDF30KR - Quaife Engineering (http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qdf30kr)

Best part of $1300, but and the point of my post, I get a traction aid that is full time maybe negating the need to do anything to the diffs at a later date.

What to do? Is the extra coin dropped on the Quaife unit actually going to be realised as an increase in traction?

Cheers,

Jas

n.b. This truck is used as a tourer/hunting rig first and foremost, 'extreme' offroading is not something in my 130's future.

As I said in a thread only yesterday, if I had a HiPo 4BD1T Isuzu in my 130 I'd seriously consider using a Quaife centre in the LT230 just so the diff could survive my right foot :angel:

Unfortunately there's only an undernourished Tdi in my future ATM.... :(

[steveG]

Land864 posted a thread a couple of months back about a LT95 diff issue. Someone in Melbourne rebuilds/machines them. Was around $500 with heavy duty cross pin etc.

Steve

[Bearman]

For less than $500 extra I would go the Quaife if you are going to purchase a new one. No more shims to wear out.:D

[Vern]

That would be Jacmac, (McNamara diffs)

[rick130]

Seeing how much cheaper Ashcrofts ATB axle diff is compared to Quaife's, maybe we need to lobby them to make an LT230 version too ? :D

[Psimpson7]

The Quaife one doenst have a lock option though does it, lsd only so its not really a good option unless you are doing some form of high speed racing

The LSD centre diff would generate less traction than the standard one when locked.....

In no way would it remove the need for cross axle diff locks if that was something you were thinking.

All my thrust washers were missing at about 120k km

[rick130]

I thought it still incorporated the CDL, but buggered if I know Pete :confused:

I wouldn't install it if I couldn't lock it. :(

[Fubar]

As I said in a thread only yesterday, if I had a HiPo 4BD1T Isuzu in my 130 I'd seriously consider using a Quaife centre in the LT230 just so the diff could survive my right foot

If the TD5 has a craptacular failure or breakage I'll yank it in favour of the aformentioned engine...that said I am entirely happy with it so far and it suits my needs to date perfectly. But I hear what your saying re the reliability of the Quaife unit.


That would be Jacmac, (McNamara diffs)
I spoke to someone there today. Now I'm no shrinking violet, but when you open a conversation Fn and Cn' about my diff centre, have a nothing good to say about them and hang up mid call, lucky to be a minute long I might add, you can expect never to hear from me again. Cost was $550 plus freight with a HD cross pin....oh and the inserts are Loctited in, no thanks.

I had a good think about the conversion when I got of the phone and firmly decided it was all him and not me. I cant remember when someone last hung up on me, let alone someone I want to give some money too!

The reliability of the Quaife is a strong selling point, I cant see me ever selling this truck....its going to make a great farm truck in a few decades.

[Psimpson7]

I thought it still incorporated the CDL, but buggered if I know Pete :confused:

I wouldn't install it if I couldn't lock it. :(

I'm not sure now Rick, but it was the reason I discounted it when I had the issue with mine...

Would be good to clarify that but I was sure it doesn't have the lock...

[Fubar]

I just emailed Quaife asking for clarification if the unit allowed the factory shifter to lock the t/case for a 50/50 power split.

I'll post the answer when I get it.

Jas

[rick130]

[snip]


I spoke to someone there today. Now I'm no shrinking violet, but when you open a conversation Fn and Cn' about my diff centre, have a nothing good to say about them and hang up mid call, lucky to be a minute long I might add, you can expect never to hear from me again.

[snip]



Geez, I've never had the misfortune to ring Jeff, but I never fail to have a chuckle when I hear about his continuing ability to win friends and influence people.
Is it a personality disorder or a case of he just doesn't give a flying fig ?

I think he's passed into almost mythical status in the 4WD community :D

[uninformed]

If this Jeff guy is anything like my uncle, he will show no respect or intrest untill treated in the exact same manner......maybe I should give the fn'C a call :D

[isuzurover]

Geez, I've never had the misfortune to ring Jeff, but I never fail to have a chuckle when I hear about his continuing ability to win friends and influence people.
Is it a personality disorder or a case of he just doesn't give a flying fig ?

I think he's passed into almost mythical status in the 4WD community :D

Conversely, my dealings with Jeff have all been by email and all been without swearwords!

Transcript below - start at the bottom. However I didn't end up getting the axles from him as he was never clear on how payment and postage would work.

I also bought 2xLT230 one piece cross shafts from him.


The Axles etc will have to be sent separately, the money order is just for the Side Gears.
Jeff



OK, no problem. What about bank transfer?

So the total will be:
$200 for the gears
$750 for 24/30 spline axles
$250 for 30spl drive flanges
= $1200 (+GST?)

I assume the axles won't fit in a post bag???

Ben.



Hi Ben,
We don't take credit cards, send us a money order with the gears and a Post Bag with your address on it so we can send it back to you.
Regards,
Jeff



Thanks Jeff,

Prices sound fine. I will pull the side gears over the easter break and send them to you next week.

I assume mastercard is fine for payment?

Ben.




-----Original Message-----
From: jeff mcnamara [mailto:mcnamara@pacific.net.au]
Sent: Thursday, 9 April 2009 08:50


Hi Ben,
To change the Splines in your ARB Locker from 10 - 24 Spline will cost $200.00. The Front Axles 24/23 Spline cost $650.00 the Pair. To make Front Axles for the Longfield CVs cost $750.00 the Pair.
Drive Flanges cost $250.00 the Pair.
Regards,
Jeff


FIRST MESSAGE BELOW

Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:48 PM
Subject: Axle and side gears price?


Hi,

I have an ARB RD03. I have heard that you are able to EDM/Broach the side gears to 24 spline. Is this correct? And what is the cost?

Also, I am interested in prices for:
24/23 spline front inner axles to fit a 1987 110 county running standard
AEU2522 CVs
24/30 spline axles and 30 spline drive flanges to fit 30/30 spline longfield CVs (already have the CVs) to a 1987 110 county.

Thanks,

Ben.

[slug_burner]

I have briefly experienced the legend. I am not sure if there is some medical reason but whatever it is, it is not conducive to pleasant introductions.

Was there a previous generation that built up the business?

[Psimpson7]

Just found a post on Pirate4x4 from ashcroft that says that the quaife lsd centre diff still has the ability to be locked so that sounds promising!

[Bearman]

In his defence I have to say that I have dealt with him on several occasions and have not had any sort of a problem other than not accepting credit cards. No swearing or anything.

[Fubar]

Quick update: Still waiting on an answer from Quaife. The Sales team is on an offsite jolly until tomorrow, lucky buggers.

[rick130]

Just found a post on Pirate4x4 from ashcroft that says that the quaife lsd centre diff still has the ability to be locked so that sounds promising!

Lets try and persuade Ian and Dave there's a market for an Ashcroft ATB centre diff :angel:

[DeeJay]

I have briefly experienced the legend. I am not sure if there is some medical reason but whatever it is, it is not conducive to pleasant introductions.

Was there a previous generation that built up the business?

Jack - his father started the business. I dont phone Jeff anymore, just visit & - I'm not kidding, he is quite pleasant face to face ( to me anyway). His work is first class & rule 1 is he is always right - & he is too, - however from the continued reports I see in this Forum about his demeanor, it is hardly an excuse to be rude.

Jeff - despite the phone manner has a thriving business from what I see & has built it much further from when his father departed, again, no excuse.

[Fubar]

I spoke to Quaife (Adrian) and he confirmed the unit functions perfectly well with the CDL, you just now have a ATB Helical LSD centre in place of an open centre diff. Its a drop in replacement with no loss of function.

I ordered one and will have it in a week.

QDF30KT - Quaife Engineering (http://www.quaife.co.uk/shop/products/qdf30kt)

Cheers

Jas

[MLD]

Excuse my ignorance but why would a ATB TC diff centre be of benefit other than in high speed Dakar type racing where the racing takes drivers over varying surfaces and time is of the essence to avoid changing out of CDL to open diff?

I have no desire to criticise your purchase decision and do not invite a reprisal. It just doesn't make sense based on its design intention and typical application.

MLD

[rick130]

Excuse my ignorance but why would a ATB TC diff centre be of benefit other than in high speed Dakar type racing where the racing takes drivers over varying surfaces and time is of the essence to avoid changing out of CDL to open diff?

I have no desire to criticise your purchase decision and do not invite a reprisal. It just doesn't make sense based on its design intention and typical application.

MLD

1. It takes care of the thrust washer/side gear issue.

2. If you have big torque (eg. a tweaked up 4BD1T) it stops things going up in tyre smoke and overloading one end of the driveline if you get a bit right foot heavy.
A few blokes with a lot of grunt have reported the front end twisting up and lighting up the inside front tyre in off the line and turn situations.
An ATB centre diff would alleviate that too.

Audi have used Torsen centre diffs for years in their road cars.

[justinc]

Hmmm, could do with one in the LT95, actually....:(

JC

[Fubar]

Excuse my ignorance but why would a ATB TC diff centre be of benefit other than in high speed Dakar type racing where the racing takes drivers over varying surfaces and time is of the essence to avoid changing out of CDL to open diff?

I have no desire to criticise your purchase decision and do not invite a reprisal. It just doesn't make sense based on its design intention and typical application.

No worries mate, happy to shed some light on why I thought it would be a good option for my 130.

I picked the Quaife unit primarily due to the reliability of the unit, both in strength and longevity. The fact it has an LSD function is just a plus when I driving on gravel.....the truck should will be more predictable on the loose stuff. That said for an ex-rally driver I poke along like Mr MaGoo nowadays!

Actually you mentioned changing to and from CDL and time savings engaging /disengaging it, its just of quality of life thing. Travelling most country roads off the main thoroughfares and you constantly switch from tar to gravel every time you pass a decently sized homestead. Again, not a reason for me to purchase, but an upshot.

An OEM replacement was $900 plus another $100 to upgrade the cross pin, $1000 for the same unit I have that was unrepairable at 154,000km. The Quaife unit is $1300 landed, considering the massive gap in engineering quality, longevity and strength, it was a no brainer for me. Like most of us I like to get into some remote places and have to have the truck as reliable as I can. The Minister For Home Affairs and I have been kicking around doing Singapore to London in this truck (she's a pom) and I base most of my decisions around the possibility I might just drag this truck into a container one day soon.


2. If you have big torque (eg. a tweaked up 4BD1T)
And this, the TD5 is chipped etc and makes good power in a heavy truck. The TD5 will be pulled at some point and something making more power, with no electrics, will replace it.

[ashtrans]

Seeing how much cheaper Ashcrofts ATB axle diff is compared to Quaife's, maybe we need to lobby them to make an LT230 version too ? :D

Already done it !

Going on web next week

Dave

[justinc]

Already done it !

Going on web next week

Dave

...what about me? LT95? :(:( pleeeeese? :)


jc

[460cixy]

It's a ripper of an idea no weak cross or worn shims in theory but what's the quality/longevity like? Being quaife I would expect to be ok

[Fubar]

Update

I received the Quaife unit and it is a flash looking bit of kit. For all its good looks I have a few challenges with the installation as when fitted up I have a fair chunk of float to contend with.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1165.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1166.jpg

With 34 thou float I have to double up on the bearing spacers (2.05mm and a 2.45mm) and shim the front output housing (1mm) to get the correct pre-load. It is a bit of a phaff around and another week spent waiting for parts to come from the UK. I ran just about everyone, including LR in Australia trying to get shims and no-one could supply the combination I needed.

I spoke to Quaife and I received advice that although not common, they have had a few customers say that float was quite large and exceeded the thickest spacer offered for the housing bearing.

Anyway its is all going together slowly...here are a couple of pics of a 'special tool' knocked up which might be helpful to someone doing a 230 t/case reco.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1167.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1168.jpg

Jas

[rick130]

Already done it !

Going on web next week

Dave

Damn, I missed this.

BIL is in the UK this week, I wonder if he'd have time, but he wont have bags big enough for everything.......:D

[Homestar]

Damn, that's a nice looking bit of kit. Almost a pity to stick it somewhere where no one will ever see it. At least you know what is lurking down below and the confidence it will give you having it there.

Good work - Gav.:)

[350RRC]

...what about me? LT95? :(:( pleeeeese? :)


jc

DITTO! Pretty please, Ashtrans?

[Red90]

Ashcroft Transmissions - Ashcroft LT230 ATB Diff (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=381)

[Bearman]

^^^^^^^ X 3 please.

[Ancient Mariner]

Just a small speed bump . Dont know if this is of interest but if using 1310 universals 10 minutes of lathe work makes tailshaft work easier
nine inch Ford comes in different lengths or 1350 for more serious grunt
Good luck
AM