Td5 Roational 'rattly' noise

[DeanoH]

Well there we were, me working on the D1 and no 1 son working on his RRC in the shed and SWMBO (off to work catching babies) comes in to say her D2a Td5 doesn't sound right.

There's a rotational 'rattly' noise coming from the front of the engine (250 K Km).

My first thought is to remove the viscous fan, then drive belt to see if any of the various belt driven bits are the culprit.

Question, is the viscous fan nut right hand or left hand ?, I feel that as the fan pulley is driven from the bottom it will be the opposite to my Tdi 300, ie. right hand thread, but am unsure.

Also, where is the tensioner ?, is it similiar to the Tdi with a spring loaded arm presumably on the RHS of the engine and accessable once the viscous fan is removed ?

All input gratefully received. :)

[Blknight.aus]

all Viscus couplings undo in the same direction as rotation.

Check the harmonic balancer, power steering pump, and the tensioner is on the left side of the engine (as you're looking at it from the front) and is under the alternator.

[justinc]

:( sounds balancer like to me, any chance of a sound byte?

jc

[DeanoH]

A sound bite is a bit more than I can manage at the moment. :(

Run out of daylight now, and the shed is full of D1 and RRC. That will change tomorrow.

As for harmonic balancer, the bit I can see (in front of drive belt pulley) does have a bit of run out but not excessively so.

I'll remove the viscous fan tomorrow and go from there, I've not worked on Kayes D2a before, always been Dealer serviced since new so I know little about it mechanically. Is balancer failure a common problem, guess I'll do a search.


Deano :)

[justinc]

deano, if the rattle is also evident as a couple of extra 'clacks' after the engine is switched off, just as it stops rotating, it is quite likely a balancer. when you remove the belt you will no doubt be able to pin point it.

jc

[DeanoH]

Don't know about extra 'clacks' on stopping but I reckon you're on the money with the harmonic balancer. :( Noise seems to dissipate when engine is revved up a bit.

Have spent the last 4 hours trying to remove the @#$%&** viscous coupling, even made a special tool to bolt onto two of the hub bolts, which eventually broke (not the bolts my special tool) . :(

Is the Disco safe to drive ? I thought of taking it down to my friendly radiator man (15 Km's away) who has one of those 'claw' type tools which hook over the fan pulley bolt heads and get the hub un stuck.

Deano :)

[Psimpson7]

It's difficult to say Dean, It may well be fine.

Mine was rattling when we were in tassie, and it made it all the way back to Qld with no issues.. another 3k km or so.

I would probably risk it unless it really sounds terrible.

The fan is a normal thread. just hitting a spanner without the lock tool will normally remove them

[alanw]

My special tool is an old sidcrome flat spanner - a large one but quite thin - with the jaws modified to fit the nut on the fan with an angle grinder - and then hit with a large hammer.

The shock tends to undo it - or at least it always has for me

Access is much improved if the egr is removed and filed on a shed wall.

alanw

[DeanoH]

Success !!! :D :wasntme:

Actually thanks to my friendly radiator repairman, Mark, (plug for Pakenham Radiators) we managed to hold the viscous pulley bolt heads with an 18" tool and with another 18" bar on the viscous hub spanner managed to crack it. :D No amount of belting the hub spanner with a hammer to get this little beast undone.

All pulleys rotate OK with no obvious 'graunching' or binding, though the viscous hub spindle has about 1mm of end float, is this a worry ? :confused:

But the real culprit, I reckon, is this.......... bolt on front half of the harmonic balancer

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/01/691.jpg

So there we go, how's that song go...........'Two out of three aint bad' , more like two down one to go :eek:.

So top marks and thanks to you justinc, the perfect diagnosis.:)

Looked up prices, just as well I was sitting down :eek::eek:, bloody hell, new ones must be made of platinum or something.

Question to those in the know. Is it OK/safe to drive without the balancer for a period ? (certainly safer than driving with only one lug remaining).

Next drama is getting the old one off and working out how to get 450 Nm for the new one. :(

If I were to get a solid bar and weld a 3/4" male fitting on one end and a 1/2" female fitting on the other end at exactly 1 metre centres will I have an 2:1 torque wrench extension for my 1/2" tension wrench ? ie. will 225 Nm on the torque wrench equal 450 Nm at the socket ?


Deano :)

[justinc]

Hi Deano,

I urge you to buy a new one even though used ones are available, as you may encounter this issue again with a second hand one, in the end costing you about the same for a new one ...


JC

[Rick Fischer]

Best trick I've been advised of for removing fan is to use a slightly cut down TD5 head bolt. Place on the edge of the hex and hit with heavy hammer. Fan spins off every time :)

Courtesy Canberra Motor Works

Cheers

RF

[DeanoH]

Hi Deano,

I urge you to buy a new one even though used ones are available, as you may encounter this issue again with a second hand one, in the end costing you about the same for a new one ...


JC

Right you are Justin. Whilst I might whinge about the cost of a new genuine/OEM replacement I'd whinge even more if I had to do the job twice. So new bits it is............. 'Do it once, do it right',............... but bloody hell, if I get out of this for under $1K I'll be doing well.

The old girls starting to become a bit expensive (and the D2a too :D). Bought it new (the Disco :)) in 2004 as an aniversary present for SWMBO. Apart from an inhibitor switch every 2 years has cost bugger all to maintain.

In the last two years transmission, fuel pump, inhibitor switch (again), fuel pressure regulator and now the harmonic balancer. The first 7 years, apart from normal service items, has cost less than $500 per year on average, not bad for a 250K Km vehicle that has done a fair bit of outback touring / 4WD'ing. The last two years though, all on road, has cost an average of $5000 per year :(. I wonder what's next ?

The funny part is, a couple of yaers ago had a look at a D3 to upgrade and decided its off road capability was **** poor without electronics and the D4 was a POS, so stayed with the D2a. :confused:

On a lighter note, rubber steel harmonic balancer failure takes me back to '70's Holdens. Everything old is new again. :o

Deano :)

[alien]

I had a second hand unit do this to me:(

I found this link helpfull when doing the nut up...
Torque Wrench extensions (http://www.specialpatrolgroup.co.uk/spooky/torque/torque.html)
I had a socket into a breaker bar with a peice of exhuast pipe over the end.
In the end of the exhuast pipe I had a 300mm shifter handle first.
I then adjusted the opening to take the tourque wrench.
A few marks with texta to keep the lengths and out with the tape and calculator.
Keeping all lined up so the angle was right my wrench setting was @140Nm.
This link may help too..http://www.discovery2.co.uk/CrankPulley.html

[justinc]

I had a second hand unit do this to me:(

I found this link helpfull when doing the nut up...
Torque Wrench extensions (http://www.specialpatrolgroup.co.uk/spooky/torque/torque.html)
I had a socket into a breaker bar with a peice of exhuast pipe over the end.
In the end of the exhuast pipe I had a 300mm shifter handle first.
I then adjusted the opening to take the tourque wrench.
A few marks with texta to keep the lengths and out with the tape and calculator.
Keeping all lined up so the angle was right my wrench setting was @140Nm.
This link may help too..http://www.discovery2.co.uk/CrankPulley.html

...Kyle, the thinking mans Landie owner :D, good stuff mate!!:cool:


JC

[DeanoH]

Thanks Kyle, good links. :D

Once upon a time, when I was a poor student and couldnt afford a tension wrench I used a spring balance and a suitable extension bar. Worked well, I got the idea from LR's swivel pin housing adjustment for my old SIIa. Though I reckon 350 ft lbs might be a bit impractical using this method. :)

Deano :)

[DeanoH]

I've got all the parts I reckon I'll need, new pulley/damper (at vast expense), seal and new bolt and have made up a jig to hold the new pulley when tightening, very similiar to www.discovery2.co.uk / Crankshaft pulley* / TV damper replacement (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/CrankPulley.html) but I am unable to use it on the old pulley as two of the 3 lugs are broken off.:(

I figure I'll need to use the old ' socket bar jagged on chassis rail and starter motor trick' to undo the retaining bolt so I need to stop the motor from starting but can't find the fuel relay :confused:, it's not under the seat or in the under dash fuse box and I really don't want the motor to start whilst cranking the bolt loose :eek:.

Any clues, all contributions gratefully accepted. :)

Deano :)

[Psimpson7]

Pull the plug from the front of the injector loom.... it wont start then!

[justinc]

Deano, I would Highly doubt you will get a result using the cranking method. We replaced one yesterday,luckily only delaminated not broken like yours, had a 3 foot pipe on a socket bar, and a 4 foot length of flat bar drilled to bolt 2 of the pulley bolts through. 2 people, lots of grunting.

They are very tight :(

I have removed a broken one in the past, ended up welding bolts onto the flat bar to jam in to the remains of the centre section, and wedged it hard against the balancer with a block of wood...it was a radiator out and major mission.

JC

[DeanoH]

Well it must be my lucky day. :)

At the risk of sounding extremely foolish and without further research, the 'front' of the injector loom wasn't readily identifiable to me a Td5 novice, so instead I started pulling relays in the under bonnet fuse/relay box and found that removing R9 did the trick in stopping the engine firing. :D

What was even better was jagging the socket on the passenger side chassis rail (I went over this a dozen times in my head to make sure it was the 'right' way) and after the fourth hit of the starter there was an almighty 'CRACK', which frightened the absolute living daylights out of me :eek: and the bolt loosened.:)
note. a very good idea to put a piece of ply between the radiator and the pulley as the socket/bar drove forward and would have damaged the radiator otherwise.

I'm now waiting for a mate to finish work to give me a hand with the doing up of the pulley/damper bolt.

I'll post some pics when it's all over. :)

Deano :)

[justinc]

Great news!!

could've been a nightmare:(

excellent you'll be back on the road in no time!

jc

[DeanoH]

Thanks all for your help in diagnosing and fixing this problem.

Here's a bit of a summary for those who may be in the same boat.

Kayes D2a Td5 started making a 'rattly rotational sound' which was diagnosed as a broken harmonic balancer/crankshaft pulley (thanks to justinc) which I am told is fairly common in TD5's at >200K Km's.

The crankshaft pulley and harmonic balancer are two separate pieces bolted together. What had happened to ours was that two of the three cast lugs on the rubber mounted centre of the pulley had broken so the harmonic balancer was just hanging on with one lug :o and this is what was making the noise.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1353.jpg

These two parts are usually bolted together with three 10.9 grade High Tensile bolts.

What Kaye did mention later was that she thought her car was a bit 'noisier' than it used to be. This may have been a clue to the pulley/balancer failing, so I guess if you reckon you're Td5 is a bit noisier than usual this would be a good thing to check.:)

After removing the viscous fan and the drive belt and feeling/rotating the various pulleys it was obvious that the pulley/balancer was broken.

This link here (courtesy of alien)

www.discovery2.co.uk / Crankshaft pulley* / TV damper replacement (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/CrankPulley.html)

gives a very good description of what's involved to repair.

The parts required are LHG100580 damper TV assy, ERR5992 seal and LYG101190 bolt. In Australia not much change out of $1000 depending on where you buy. :(

What is also needed is a method of holding the crankshaft still whilst the retaining bolt is removed. As this is done up to 460 Nm (330 ft lbs) it is a major exercise.

I made a tool very similiar to that in the UK thread to hold the pulley whilst removing the bolt. The same tool is also used when replacing the pulley.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/132.jpg

I used a 300mm length of 50mm X 8mm angle with a 'socket' welded to it to take a 1 metre length of High Tensile 'Z' bar (can't successfully weld HT bar without seriously weakening it). This method was to allow me to use additional bar(s) for greater leverage if neccessary.:)

Unfortunately I couldn't use this tool to hold the broken pulley as two of the three bolt holes were broken. What I did was rest a socket extension on the LHS chassis rail with a 24mm socket on the pulley bolt so I could use the starter motor to undo the bolt. Before I could do this I had to stop the engine from starting when the starter motor turned. The mental vision of the engine running with a socket and bar connected doesn't bear thinking about :eek:.

Removing relay R9 in the engine bay fuse/relay box stopped the engine firing with the starter motor turning. The marker pen is in the R9 position with the relay removed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1354.jpg

On the fourth hit of the starter the bolt loosened with an almighty 'CRAAK' which did my blood pressure no good at all. :o The pulley was very easy to remove from the end of the crankshaft, no taper and no key just slides off quite easily.

The old seal was a bit fiddly to jag out with a pair of screwdrivers as there's not much room between it and the radiator but OK in the end. The new one tapped in quite easily.

I separated the pulley/harmonic balancer and with a splash of oil on the new pulley seal surface fitted it to the end of the crankshaft and loosely tightened. I put plenty of anti sieze/lubricant on thread and bolt/washer surfaces.

The next problem is how to get 460 Nm/330 ft lb of torque on the bolt. :confused:
Your normal 1/2" drive tension wrench won't come near this.

There's a couple of options.

1/. Build an extension (torque multiplier) for your existing tension wrench
2/. Buy a suitable 3/4" drive tension wrench
3/. (And don't laugh), Hang two 20 litre jerry cans of water on a piece of rope via a pulley attached to a bar 1 metre from a socket on the crankshaft bolt.

A good link for a torque multiplier (again thanks to alien) is here.

Torque Wrench extensions (http://www.specialpatrolgroup.co.uk/spooky/torque/torque.html)

After making one of these I looked on eBay and found this

TENSION WRENCH 3/4 DRIVE 120 - 600 FT/LBS REVERSABLE RATCHET HEAD CHROME FINISH | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TENSION-WRENCH-3-4-DRIVE-120-600-FT-LBS-REVERSABLE-RATCHET-HEAD-CHROME-FINISH-/281041657980?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item416f63607c)

and decided it was good value as I could also use it on the OKA.:)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1355.jpg

I didn't get around to trying option 3, but 46 Kg @ 1 metre gives pretty much 460 Nm of torque.

Here's the final assembly/setup

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1356.jpg

Here's another shot

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2014/11/133.jpg

There's a piece of ply between the radiator and the engine which is recommended by me as it saved the radiator from damage when the socket drove forward when removing the bolt.

There was no Loctite on the pulley bolt that was removed so I put none on the replacement but there was plenty on the 3 bolts holding the harmonic balancer to the pulley, I used high strength 'red' Loctite here and didn't skimp'. These are done up to 80 Nm/59 ft lb.

Easy peasy from here, new fan belt, refit viscous fan with plenty of anti sieze on the thread, replace plastic covers and wonder why car won't start, until I remember to refit R9. :angel:

Deano :)

[justinc]

Great stuff Deano, a difficult job tackled, with ease:D

JC