D4 towing - trailer wobble

[Ruby2]

Ok so here we go. I tow a 700kg horse who is very dear to my heart ;)

I have mainly kept to "B" roads and had no issues...however! Aha here we are travelling on the freeway....tootling along and get to about 80kph and get the wobbles from the trailer I think....like a wheel out of alignment. Tootle a bit slower trying to find a sweet spot and find it...at 88kph.

I get home and say to my poor suffering husband...the car? or float? has a wheel out of balance can you check them for me? Yep no worries, I love him he's a race mechanic, so off he goes and checks them...all seem ok...if anything one of the wheels on the car was slightly out...

So next trip it's not any better........hmmmmmmm

With the self-leveling suspension its quite hard to get the float draw bar level with the factory tongue. Suspect that there isn't enough weight on tow bar so put up with it for a few weeks and then today I have had enough. The float is starting to get a shimmy when it's going along and wobbling and with 700kg of lovely Spanish Mare (Australian Champion no less) I am not prepared to keep this going.

We did an experiment. We have a 1,000 water tank we use to water remote trees...we filled that about half full or say 600kg....slightly lighter than The Queen (horse) and I pack dogs and husband in the car to recreate what I am dealing with. Sure enough we get the wobble.....husband is thinking....I am thinking and I reckon it's the tow bar weight is insufficient so the trailer is skipping on the back of the car....
(I will also say that today as I was coming home I saw a car towing another car on a trailer. Nothing wrong with that you say? No of course not until the trailer starts to sway and gets up enough of a shimmy to cause what we call a tank slapper! Whammo, driver looses control...I flash my lights madly at oncoming cars and ring 000 as from what I saw it looked mighty messy!:eek::eek:) So my impetuous to do something about this wobble was prodded you see.

To remedy it we flipped the tongue upside down so the ball is higher now....with the self levelling suspension it's not perfect but it's better after a quick test drive.

If you have any suggestions about anything else we can do I would appreciate it. With the tongue low it's too low and with the tongue high it's slightly too high BUT at least there is weight on the ball now!

I sure as hell do not want the anti-sway stuff on the car coming on with a 700kg horse in the back as they really are unrestrained and can fall easily so if you get stuck behind a float going slowly.....they are doing so for the safety and comfort of their horse...not to ruin your day or make you late :-);):)

[Graeme]

For starters, single or dual axles on the float?

Edit: From another of your posts its obviously at least dual axle. Therefore try lowering the pressures a little in the tyres on the front axle.

[connock]

wheel bearings tight ?

[discotwinturbo]

I tow a triple axle 3.5 tonne horsefloat....no sway at all.

It seems to be a balance issue. Too much weight at the rear, then it will sway at speed.

I would be checking ball weight, tyre pressures and wheel bearings.

I would expect it to be a dual axle horsefloat....if a single then I would never tow it with a horse. Saw a single axle one being towed by a cruiser in Harvey last year at an event. She said it was a bitch to tow.

Hope you work it out.

Brett....

[Ruby2]

Thanks everyone.

Yes dual axle double horse float with horse riding on the drivers side of the float.

Yep I think we didn't have enough ball weight either. Just interested what position is your tongue Brett? To get more weight on the ball I have had to flip mine. On the Hilux I didn't have this issue at all......

I couldn't even consider towing a single axle single horse float...wouldn't be strong enough nor stable enough!

[Ruby2]

Oh yes and we have checked bearings, tyres, balance etc. Float is less than 12 months old with only 15 hours total towing on road time!

[justinc]

definately sounds like more ball weight required. can you try a trip with 3 or 4 20 litre water containers on the drawbar, add and remove to experiment? you really need at least 100kg on the bar when towing tandem trailers with short drawbars, as many horse floats have. they sacrifice manueverability for towing comfort imo.

jc

[Graeme]

Are the springs load sharing? If not then the nose must not be down.

[discotwinturbo]

Thanks everyone.

Yes dual axle double horse float with horse riding on the drivers side of the float.

Yep I think we didn't have enough ball weight either. Just interested what position is your tongue Brett? To get more weight on the ball I have had to flip mine. On the Hilux I didn't have this issue at all......

I couldn't even consider towing a single axle single horse float...wouldn't be strong enough nor stable enough!

I have a Mitch hitch and rapid hitch. It's at the bottom of the 6 inch drop on the rapid hitch. When I had the LR hitch, it was the usual setup and not inverted. Basically the Mitch hitch is about 6 inches higher. They new setup sits at the same height as original.

Original and now modified setup are perfectly flat......but mine is heavy at 340kgs on the tow ball.

Maybe strap your 4 legged friend on the A-Frame ;)

Brett.....

[Ruby2]

Thanks Justinc we have more weight now and not able to safely tow with more weight on draw bar.....set up isn't too bad...will try and post a photo but tow car will be my Hilux.
Graeme I have torsion bar suspension on the float if that helps....would have gotten rocker roller but didn't :-(

I will get a better photo tomorrow. It really is a pretty picture.

Sounds corny but for 20 years I have dreamed of having a lovely Disco and a matching horse float. Very Barbie but now I have it I am so tickled pink! Just get rid of this shimmy and we will be perfect!

[Ruby2]

Maybe strap your 4 legged friend on the A-Frame ;)

Brett.....


Haha Brett....yes actually I think she would prefer to ride in the boot really :-) She's quite a princess ;-)

Hmm hopefully the change we have made will work for now....it certainly "feels" heavier on the ball and draw bar. Before we could lift up the float attached to the car easily like it was tipped up too much. Now we can't. I can load up the front tack box of the float which is closer to the ball than said horse :-)

[Sharkee]

Hi Ruby different model I know but same/similar problem. I have/had an 01 model and used to have sls towing a 22ft 2t van and was getting the same thing happening. (I converted my rear to coils/polyairs. I tried a lot of things to rectify it. I had the same level issues between both tug and trailer. In the end I put it down to the level on my van. I'm not saying do this but I raised the van height by doing an undersling on the axles and is level now, although not perfect, heaps better at tracking straighter behind my d2. My ball weight was also a little lighter than maybe it should have been. So yeah a level setup/correct ball weight in my opinion is needed to achieve happy towing. A hayman reece weight distribution set up helps a lot too


Steve

[Graeme]

If the torsion bars are adjustable then you could relax the front one and increase the tension on the rear to effectively shift weight forwards. If no ready adjustment is available then I expect they would splined so need to be dismantled to adjust.

[Blknight.aus]

check the alignment of the rear axle and the condition of the suspension bushes.

you might just be experiencing what Ive started to nick name "shopping trolly syndrome"

[SBD4]

Hi Ruby different model I know but same/similar problem. I have/had an 01 model and used to have sls towing a 22ft 2t van and was getting the same thing happening. (I converted my rear to coils/polyairs. I tried a lot of things to rectify it. I had the same level issues between both tug and trailer. In the end I put it down to the level on my van. I'm not saying do this but I raised the van height by doing an undersling on the axles and is level now, although not perfect, heaps better at tracking straighter behind my d2. My ball weight was also a little lighter than maybe it should have been. So yeah a level setup/correct ball weight in my opinion is needed to achieve happy towing. A hayman reece weight distribution set up helps a lot too


Steve

Do not use a WDH on the D4.

[camel_landy]

Keep your hitches simple on the D4 as there is technology built into the car to detect and correct trailer sway. Fitting a 3rd party bit of kit will potentially upset this system.

M

[Graeme]

check the alignment of the rear axle and the condition of the suspension bushes.

you might just be experiencing what Ive started to nick name "shopping trolly syndrome"
I suspect you might be onto the cause here - wobble not sway.

[discotwinturbo]

Keep your hitches simple on the D4 as there is technology built into the car to detect and correct trailer sway. Fitting a 3rd party bit of kit will potentially upset this system.

M

Unfortunately M, due to the nature of our travels/off road touring in Australia and what we choose to tow, the factory hitch (plough) is not suitable for use in many situations and has proven to be dangerous on some Discoverys, hence the Mitch hitch.

The wdh....well we know that this can't be used for any self levelling suspension, LR or other manufacturers.

My Mitch hitch effectively works with the trailer assist.....I have experienced this on a couple of occasions.

Brett.....

[flotty1974]

Hi Ruby2, My wife and I have a D4 and tow a Unicorn 2 horse angle. I think we saw you coming onto the freeway at Barker on Saturday when we were heading home from a show. We are able to tow at 100km/h (sometimes more) with no issue. The draw bar is rather long compared to the Cris and it is rather heavy in the front end. We have the tongue in the upper mode (looks upside down to a normal hitch). I would suggest sticking some water gerrys in the tack box and giving it a go or go see the float centre on Welly Rd at Mt Barker. If you want to have a look at my bus, PM me and we will see what we can arrange.

[Tombie]

Unfortunately M, due to the nature of our travels/off road touring in Australia and what we choose to tow, the factory hitch (plough) is not suitable for use in many situations and has proven to be dangerous on some Discoverys, hence the Mitch hitch.

The wdh....well we know that this can't be used for any self levelling suspension, LR or other manufacturers.

My Mitch hitch effectively works with the trailer assist.....I have experienced this on a couple of occasions.

Brett.....

I think he means keep them simple - not add a WDH etc..

The Mitch is still just a simple hitch point, albeit stronger and higher

[Collins]

The height of the tow ball should be the same height as the centre line of the float wheels. It is also important to ensure that you have adequate weight loading at the hitch, when the float is loaded.
I had a similar problem some time back when I changed tow vehicles, used for towing a heavy boat. I fitted a dropped stinger bringing the ball height close to the centre line height of the trailer wheels and slightly increased ball weight. No further problems

[justinc]

...with a 700kg horse in the back as they really are unrestrained and can fall easily so if you get stuck behind a float going slowly.....they are doing so for the safety and comfort of their horse...not to ruin your day or make you late :-);):)

hi ruby, just wondering , wouldn't a crush of some kind make the horse less stressed during travel? i am not a horsey person, but i do repair floats etc for landie customers ,and have seen the hitching bars and dividers inside but until now never thought about this aspect.
also, travelling say with cows or similar creatures in a trailer should you have them packed properly (:p would of course be easier in a cardboard freezer box:angel::wasntme: ) , or if insufficient numbers should be in a crush of some kind to avoid injury etc i would've thought...?

jc

[Ruby2]

hi ruby, just wondering , wouldn't a crush of some kind make the horse less stressed during travel? i am not a horsey person, but i do repair floats etc for landie customers ,and have seen the hitching bars and dividers inside but until now never thought about this aspect.
also, travelling say with cows or similar creatures in a trailer should you have them packed properly (:p would of course be easier in a cardboard freezer box:angel::wasntme: ) , or if insufficient numbers should be in a crush of some kind to avoid injury etc i would've thought...?

jc

Hi there, yes they are restrained with a divider but they can easily slip or scramble if the float goes too fast around a corner. Like being on a bus when the bus goes around a sharp bend the standing passengers get affected by the inertia.... A horse however will not understand why this is happening and they tend to think if there is too much angle that the walls are the floor.....scrambling is dangerous and stressful for the horses. They can slip and fall and end up under the divider if they get too scared! It's hard to pack them like cows, we also transport cows, but they are much easier however I still drive much slower around corners....
All good questions and thanks for asking!

[jonesy63]

... the D4 as there is technology built into the car to detect and correct trailer sway.

Does the horse float actually get detected? There should be a trailer symbol flash on the dash when the blinkers are on.

Ruby - Has it got LED tail lights? (The D3/D4 doesn't detect a trailer with LED tail lights by default, so the above comment isn't completely true). :mad:

[Ruby2]

I have to say thank you to you all!

I appreciate your advice and comments very much.

I did a test tonight. Borrowed my friends float, another brand with the same suspension. Loaded it up with the water tank and 600kg of water.

Results.
Could travel at 100kph with no wobbling at all other than the water sloshing. Float felt very stable and solid. Not at all like mine today which wobbled and wasn't happy at 75kph.

Will be calling the place I bought it from tomorrow and asking for help. Hubbie has checked axles and suspension bushes which all look good. For it's age only 12 months old and less than 500kph travelled I should think if it had any wear issues it would be quite alarming!

One thing I did realise is that with a stable float and no horse (just water) god the car can go! Leaves my Hilux for dead!

One final question. When you tow a van or a float do you leave the transmission in drive or have it in Sport. Have read the book but there isn't anything that states what I should do.

Thanks again everyone.

Cheers
Julia

[Ruby2]

Does the horse float actually get detected? There should be a trailer symbol flash on the dash when the blinkers are on.

Ruby - Has it got LED tail lights? (The D3/D4 doesn't detect a trailer with LED tail lights by default, so the above comment isn't completely true). :mad:

Hi Jonesy63 yes I get the flashing trailer symbol so the car knows the float is there. Hubbie took great care to make sure this all worked when he installed the electric brake switch and we solved some issues with great info on this forum provided by Sneigy!:)

[clubagreenie]

One option to get some weight forward might be to move the axles back? (if adjustable).

But I was going to suggest the same thing you've decided. With only 15hours in, take it back and say "fix it, I'll be back at 4".

[Blknight.aus]

stick it in sports when you're on anything but a cruise or an over run where you want to do a long gentle slow down. If your giving it wellie and the TC is unlocked in top cog, manually shift down and bury the boot a little harder till you get up to speed then back off till the TC locks up, hold that untill you're done with the high torque driving then knock it back up into top and then pull it out of sports.

[Ruby2]

stick it in sports when you're on anything but a cruise or an over run where you want to do a long gentle slow down. If your giving it wellie and the TC is unlocked in top cog, manually shift down and bury the boot a little harder till you get up to speed then back off till the TC locks up, hold that untill you're done with the high torque driving then knock it back up into top and then pull it out of sports.

Thanks Dave......just curious cause I have no idea basically...what do you mean by TC?? Thanks for your advice....basically been doing this as it's hilly were we are and I prefer to use engine braking rather than brake braking when I can.

[chuck]

Julia

Make sure you get them to check the bearings.

I have a large tandem trailer with roller rocker suspension & on one axle the bearing seized due to lack of grease - the other bearing was also not far off.

The trailer was only 13 months old & would have been lucky to have travelled 2000km.

The trailer manufacture blamed me as I did not grease & tighten the bearings.

My local mechanic told me it did not have enough grease in the first place.

The trailer weighs 700kg mt & has a long drawer bar and tows beautifully.

Cheers

[discotwinturbo]

Ruby2, Dave is getting quite technical. TC is torque converter.

You need to watch the tachometer to see this happen.

Our horse float, as I mentioned earlier, is 3.5 tonne. For me driving with heavy weight sport mode is the way to go. But the D4 revs pretty hard with my weight, so I keep it in normal drive. It still revs adequately high enough for me, but not near the 4k mark it will go in sport mode with this weight.

In my Toaureg towing the same trailer, sport mode is better, as the engine does not rev as hard as the D4, but in normal is too relaxed for my liking.

On inclines I do flick across to manual mode....just wished LR put it on the right and not on the left....a real design flaw IMO.

Brett.....

[Ruby2]

Ok thanks for that Brett.

Yes I agree it would be far more intuitive if it was on the right (sport mode) that is. I find I do go right and then doh!! its to the left!!

Chuck, yes bearings all good and checked...all have good grease....I married my mechanic so he's got a vested interest ;)

Called the float manufacturer today and asked some questions he said "Oh I think a wheel alignment will fix that" to which I replied I am way ahead of you....done wheel alignment on the car and the float, check the bearings etc etc.......did some experiments......all my responses left him very perplexed.....if the car does not suffer this with the Olympic brand float then one thinks that it's the float design or suspension?? which is causing the issue!

[Sharkee]

Do not use a WDH on the D4.
Nah I wasn't saying that, I hope it didn't come across like that appologies if it did was just giving a comparison on similar problem and was moreso trying to get across needs to be level hence my lifting my van a bit to achieve this.

[clubagreenie]

It's on the left as thats where there biggest market sits.

[Ruby2]

It's on the left as thats where there biggest market sits.
Ha ha my husband sits on the left but there is no way I would give him control of my gearbox :D He's only allowed to drive Ruby when it's absolutely necessary :p I never did share my toys well when I was a kid!

Interestingly to add to my experiment and because my brain has not stopped thinking about this.....tonight we hooked the float up to Hubbies paddock basher Prado added 500kg water tank and off we tootled. Just to make doubly sure. The float did the same thing with his car also.

So far we have done:
Float and Disco - wobble and sway
Wheel balance on float and car
Turned tongue to be in the high set position
Float and Prado - wobble and sway
Disco and another float - no wobble or sway
Tonight the float will get a wheel alignment check so we can say what's going on but I can see (I reckon) that the front drivers wheel on the float is toed out and quick check confirmed this.

I think I should have been a scientist really! However, at least when I make a call tomorrow I can say I have saved them a lot of time in trying to work out the offending culprit of this issue and it's not the Disco or the hitch.....

Thanks again everyone for your advice, tips and thoughts they have been great and I appreciate the time you have taken to type them!:)

[Ruby2]

Since my last post we have done the following:

Jacked up float, spun all wheels to make sure hubs have not been drilled out of round.
Placed a 60 litre water tank in the tack box at the front of the float as close as we can get to the draw bar.

The hubs are acceptable.
The water tank has made a slight difference but it's still skipping around and wobbling just a bit less than before.:(

Off to the place I bought it from on Tuesday night to take the owner for a drive in my car with float and water tank! He took the float, unloaded, and it didn't put a foot wrong on his car....I should have taken it to him with the tank.....

Sigh........:(