K-O-H 2013 With LR content

[Psimpson7]

Just a heads up for anyone interested.

The King of the Hammers (desert/rock crawling race) is this weekend in Johnson Valley in the States.

Gigglepin, with Jim Marsden and Aussie Wayne Smith are competing.

Number 69, in a Defender based racer running Ashcroft Force 9's, and a 5litre v8.

gigglepin » Team Gigglepin Off-Road Race Team Looking to be King of the Hammers 2013 (http://www.gigglepin4x4.net/blog/)

UK based Team Gigglepin to compete at KOH 2013 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/competitions-events/1116166-uk-based-team-gigglepin-compete-koh-2013-a.html)

https://www.facebook.com/TeamGigglepin

Should be pretty interesting to see how they get on.

A live stream should be available to watch it on.

Cheers
Pete

[Slunnie]

That's going to be a serious test of the force9s

[Pedro_The_Swift]

How good is this:D:cool::D
The Crown Goes East As Erik Miller Wins the 2012 Griffin King of the Hammers | Ultra4Racing.com (http://ultra4racing.com/featured/the-crown-goes-east-as-erik-miller-wins-the-2012-griffin-king-of-the-hammers/)

[Slunnie]

It's awesome, the DVDs are so professional and entertaining also. It'll be interesting to see who wins it this year and if Shannon Campbell can win it in the IFS buggy.

[Grimace]

It's a whole week of entertainment commencing today!

With the main event (ultra4 racers) held on Friday 8th, they have king of the motos this weekend!


Schedule for all interested - http://ultra4racing.com/the-inside-line/2013-king-of-the-hammers-week-schedule/

[Psimpson7]

Looks like they have had a gearbox failure, but have a spare.

[uninformed]

It's a whole week of entertainment commencing today!

With the main event (ultra4 racers) held on Friday 8th, they have king of the motos this weekend!


Schedule for all interested - 2013 KOH Week Schedule | Ultra4Racing.com (http://ultra4racing.com/the-inside-line/2013-king-of-the-hammers-week-schedule/)

isnt there a type of production class racing at the same time/same event in the main race on the friday?? Im wondering if the Gigglepin LR fits this class, as they run a chassis, coils and only 14inch shocks :confused:

[uninformed]

That's going to be a serious test of the force9s

was thinking the same...having a look at a few pics it doesnt look like the housings are braced, laminated, trussed etc at all :confused: could be wrong though.

[Psimpson7]

According to the Devon4x4 form Ashcrofts have UPS'd another gearbox out.

Looks like there are 2 lower level classes. stock, and stock mod.

I am pretty sure they are in the main event.

Drivers list:

2013 Drivers List - Griffin King of the Hammers Presented by Nitto Tire | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/notes/shannon-welch/2013-drivers-list-griffin-king-of-the-hammers-presented-by-nitto-tire/10151995994535931)

Regarding the other classes, from the ultra4 racong webpage:

The Griffin King of The Hammers is a week-long event that takes place in Johnson Valley, CA every February with the official King of The Hammers race occurring on Friday, February 10, 2012. The stock and modified stock race known as The Every Man Challenge (EMC) will be taking place on Sunday, February 5, 2012. While the course will not be the entire King of The Hammers course, you can be sure it will contain all of the same elements as the main race. Not only that, but the winners of The EMC, both the stock and modified stock class will also win a chance to compete in the main event on Friday and race their vehicles along-side the professional unlimited 4-Wheel drive class known as Ultra4.

The stock class is meant to be a true proving ground for the OEM and aftermarket suppliers to show once and for all, who makes the best 4WD vehicle and accessories on the planet. This class will be limited to 35” DOT tires, the shocks cannot be bypasses, and the cars will be full body and frame. The modified stock (stock-mod) class is for the enthusiast that wants to go fast, and see what their car is capable of, but doesn’t have a full blown Ultra4 car. According to Cole, “It’s a chance for every off-roader to experience big time racing on a small time budget.” This stock-mod class will be limited to 37” DOT tires, they will be allowed to run bypasses on their shocks, and their vehicles will be partial frame vehicles. Both classes will need to adhere to all the safety rules outlined in the King Of The Hammers rule book. For a full list of stock and stock mod specs as well as the entire King of The Hammers rule book please visit the Ultra4 racing web site at www.ultra4racing.com/racers/rulebook/ (http://www.ultra4racing.com/)

[uninformed]

Thanks Pete, and AFAIK, Gigglepin are doing the EMC before the main event. This would place them in Stock-Mod class as far as I can tell.

[uninformed]

I just hope they finish both events....may have bitten off more than they can chew.

[Psimpson7]

As far as I can see they are in the EMC (every man challenge) and the main event. (They aren't in the EMC list on the below link but as you say it has been mentioned elsewhere)

2013 Griffin King of the Hammers Event Entry List - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/competitions-events/1105620-2013-griffin-king-hammers-event-entry-list.html)

Qualifying times (24th on tuesday for KOH):

Ultra4 4 Wheel Parts Qualifying Starting Order By Day | Ultra4Racing.com (http://ultra4racing.com/2013_koh/ultra4-wheel-parts-qualifying-starting-order-by-day/)

I think the stock, and stock mod class event is actually run on a different course.... the website is terrible!

[uninformed]

the way I am reading it is, the EMC is the stock and stock-mod class race. Not the full KOH but all parts of it.

Even though Gigglepin are in the EMC, it seems they are also already in the KOH, which means they do not have to win the EMC to get into the KOH.

on top of that, they have pushed the limits very fine as what you quoted from last year there was 5 days between EMC and KOH....this year EMC is on the thursday, KOH the Friday...in fact KOH tech inspection is on while they are racing EMC.... its going to be one hell of a week for them if they have any problems.

[ashtrans]

That's going to be a serious test of the force9s

Not really, Jim has the prototypes that had the 'true hi 9' ring and pinions, these use the ford 9" tooth angles but being high pinion the rear is driving on the coast side of the tooth, this generates huge side forces resulting in the needle roller bearing wearing on the end of the pinion, on the production ones we designed, we adjusted these tooth angles to reduce these side forces,

If a diff fails I think this will be why,

Dave

[uninformed]

Tru hi 9 make the mega9 which has some improvements over the hi9 for which some are installing in the rear.....

Dave, do you know if their housings are strengthened in any way? Does your force9 ring and pinion retain the same hypoid/pinion offset as a ford 9 and do you retain the 3rd bearing/pinion support?

[Grimace]

Tru hi 9 make the mega9 which has some improvements over the hi9 for which some are installing in the rear.....

Dave, do you know if their housings are strengthened in any way? Does your force9 ring and pinion retain the same hypoid/pinion offset as a ford 9 and do you retain the 3rd bearing/pinion support?

Don't quote me on this but I believe the housings are sleeved internally.

[Psimpson7]

latest update.. now running a spool in the rear....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/95h92spsbe9316d/Blank%203.pdf

[uninformed]

latest update.. now running a spool in the rear....

https://www.dropbox.com/s/95h92spsbe9316d/Blank%203.pdf

Hmmm I wonder if oiling issues where the cause???

[ashtrans]

I don't think it was oil as this is a failed journal bearing which is on the centreline of the diff, if oil was a problem I would of expected the much higher pinion bearing to fail, this locker was a modified ARB RD99 as opposed to the production ones which have our locker, we pulled this bearing in 20mm and I think this bearing has failed due to 3 things,

1) by pulling the bearing in we have increased the load on them,

2) soft cast ARB material

3) huge side forces due to tooth pressure angles as mentioned above (on the morning it failed!)

I think the mega high 9 just has a larger diameter pinion shaft but there may be other changes

Dave

[uninformed]

I don't think it was oil as this is a failed journal bearing which is on the centreline of the diff, if oil was a problem I would of expected the much higher pinion bearing to fail, this locker was a modified ARB RD99 as opposed to the production ones which have our locker, we pulled this bearing in 20mm and I think this bearing has failed due to 3 things,

1) by pulling the bearing in we have increased the load on them,

2) soft cast ARB material

3) huge side forces due to tooth pressure angles as mentioned above (on the morning it failed!)

I think the mega high 9 just has a larger diameter pinion shaft but there may be other changes

Dave

just read your web page, ill post some basics and correct me if any are wrong:

Force9 (proto and production) diff journal bearings 20mm closer together than a ford 9 due to smaller rover axle/diff housing.

Side thrust due to tooth angle of ford9 which is little when on the drive side but much greater when on the coast side....rear high pinion will be running on the coast side (True hi9 is coast side) can not get gears cut opposite. Ashcroft and there ring and pinion manufacture have come up with their own design which changes tooth profile and reduces side thrus when on coast side.

Ashcroft force9 has the same pinion offset from ring gear center line as Ford9. Ashcroft force9 has the extra pinion support on the end like Ford9

Ashcroft force9 locker is an improvement on the troublesome ARB Ford9 locker.

It seems odd to me that Gigglepin have gone to KOH with your prototype, especially after your findings during R&D that led to the final product. Im sure there are reasons, I just hope they can sort it and finish their events.

[ashtrans]

Yes, fair comment !

gigglepin have the uprated locking mechanism on the RD99's but it wasn't an option to fit our production version of the ring and pinions as they have now changed to the lower 4.86 ratio 'true high 9' gears,

[isuzurover]

...knife to a gun fight...

lol, I have to agree, especially if they are actually competing in the full KOH...

KOH 2010 Casey Currie Roll Over @ Sledge Hammer - YouTube

Shannon Campbell - KOH 2012 - YouTube

They may have the best winch, but from what I have seen the top KOH competitors never need one... (???)

[uninformed]

yep, but they are having a go so all good. If they can just finish EMC in what ever class they are in this will be big for a Rover....

KOH, well getting to the starting line is a massive task in itself.

[isuzurover]

yep, but they are having a go so all good. If they can just finish EMC in what ever class they are in this will be big for a Rover....

KOH, well getting to the starting line is a massive task in itself.

Agreed!

[Psimpson7]

I can't wait!

Good luck to them!

I am going to be positive and think they will finish both! :) (well I really hope they do!!)

[Psimpson7]

Or maybe not.

Look like they removed the front left wheel/knuckle.

pic from devon4x4 forum user:

http://www.devon4x4.com/media/kunena/attachments/1816/image_2013-02-05.jpg

[rick130]

Ouch. :(

[Grimace]

should have baught a patrol :D

[rick130]

should have baught a patrol :D


:lol2:

[Psimpson7]

lol I would take the 3 wheeled Defender over a running Patrol!

Broken bit:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1178.jpg

[isuzurover]

Bugger...

Back to the drawing board [cad software] for Dave and Ian???

[uninformed]

I would have thought the connection between knuckle and axle flange fail before that....its still only the original 7 bolt rover housing flange.....

[isuzurover]

I would have thought the connection between knuckle and axle flange fail before that....its still only the original 7 bolt rover housing flange.....

Why? the flange has a much larger surface area and (as you said) 7 bolts to spread the load.

The failed part looks a fair bit thinner than aftermarket D44/D60 outers...

EDIT - e.g.
http://www.trail-gear.com/images/300540-KIT-225.jpg
http://www.trail-gear.com/images/300540-KIT-225.jpg

[Bush65]

I'm hope they can get going again and finish. Sorry to see a small piece of steel (or lack of a small amount of steel) end such a campaign. On the bright side this is what prototyping and rigorous testing is for.

From what I can deduce from this distance, the fracture would have started from the RH edge through to the bolt hole. Here the material only looks to be 5 or 6 mm x the plate thickness. Once this material started to let go the load and stress increased rapidly on the other (left) side of the bolt hole, and so on.

The wheel spacers would have increased the stress in that part of the knuckle, so if they can't beef up the replacement knuckles it would help the knuckle if they loose the wheel spacers for some loss of vehicle stability.

Good luck to all concerned :BigThumb:

Edit: just looked at the pics again and saw it was the LH knuckle, so what I said would most likely be wrong and the crack would have started on the edge to the LH side (front of knuckle) of the swivel pin hole

[uninformed]

I was hoping you would see this thread John. From my guesstimations of sizes and from looking at the pics on Ashcroft site, I would say that when viewed from above, (as in pete's pic) the distance from edge of main/large hole to edge of plate would be min 10mm. I would also guesstimate that thickness of that plate to be no less than 15mm.

here are a couple pf pics from Ashcrofts site:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56424&d=1360133442

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56425&d=1360133453

Ben, my backyard reasoning was that the top and bottom bearing, and their relative plate area are shareing the loads. Add also to that the seperation of them. The load being from the tyre/wheel and that this is further away from the axle housing connection that the "king pins" thus having more leverage. Of those 7 bolts, its only the bottom 4 doing the majority of work...

like I said, just my view and considering that everything in the steering/stub end should be an increase over LR efforts, that the axle housing connection is still stock.

[ashtrans]

Thats a real shame the knuckle has let go after all the work they have put in, I checked the ones in the workshop as soon as I got in and they measure 20mm :

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1174.jpg

but looking at the photo Jims don't look like 20mm, his were made so long ago I cant remember what they were, they aren't necessarily the same as the production ones, his look more like 12mm,

chopping the broken part off will be easy enough, it sounds like they can get a new one lasercut there but I am not sure about machining the hole for the swivel bearing but there is loads of tooling onsite and hopefully they will find a way to patch it back together.

[justinc]

I agree the wheel spacers will add a big moment, impacts like I have seen on the 2012 vids will really shock these plates, and unlike a railco type of bush that will absorb a little bit of shock TR bearings are very unforgiving.

I really hope they can get back into it:(:D

A Rover isn't a Rover with any other axle, I am certain all can be overcome:)

Dave and Ian, I am impressed ! :)

JC

[uninformed]

John, Dave, do you think that the end of the weld is a possible stress riser for a crack to proagate?

(black arrow)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56437&d=1360140177

[justinc]

Yes, There are a lot of sharp edges there , maybe a 1 piece casting would be a better idea for extreme stuff, or some careful/ gentle radii?

Obviously I am not familiar with the overall item; sometimes holding it right in front of you is the only way to form an 'opinion' not from photos so apologies Dave and Ian if I am a little off track.

JC

[ashtrans]

I don't think it's that complicated, Ian seems to think they are only 12mm, we obviously deemed this a weakness which is why we went to 20 on the production ones. In hindsight Jim/we should have changed these

[Red90]

Looks like they used 20 or 25mm plate on the repair.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/563427_153286958162620_961985442_n.jpg

[Psimpson7]

Wonder if they made any reinforcements to the other side at the same time...

[uninformed]

as in the bottom or the other side of vehicle?? yes time is tight but hell it would seem silly not to??

what is the main hole for the bolt/spherical bush? is it just a parrallel hole or tappered or such?

IMO if they need that trackwidth, they really need to look at a new housing and longer shafts. Get rid of those stupid spacers and dont run large offset wheels.

[isuzurover]

Wonder if they made any reinforcements to the other side at the same time...

I was thinking the same...

[uninformed]

chasing their tail with now an A frame problem. "fractured A frame" in their words, but working on it, again with the help from Ruffstuff Specialties.

I have no idea if it its:

the ball joint
the axle housing mount
the ball joint mount at arms
or the arms themselves

[psykokid]

chasing their tail with now an A frame problem. "fractured A frame" in their words, but working on it, again with the help from Ruffstuff Specialties.

I have no idea if it its:

the ball joint
the axle housing mount
the ball joint mount at arms
or the arms themselves

From their FB feed looks like it's the arm..

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1143.jpg

[uninformed]

yep, but its a custom A frame, not LR. Which would make sense being that they are @ 100 inch wheelbase. Looks like it has possibaly failed very near the join/weld of the tube that crosses over to the other side (LR stock A frame does not have anything joint the L and R arms of the A frame.)

Edit: maybe, maybe not, hard to see how close the break is to the cross tube???........all a guesstimation by me.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[isuzurover]

yep, but its a custom A frame, not LR. Which would make sense being that they are @ 100 inch wheelbase. Looks like it has possibaly failed very near the join/weld of the tube that crosses over to the other side (LR stock A frame does not have anything joint the L and R arms of the A frame.)

Edit: maybe, maybe not, hard to see how close the break is to the cross tube???........all a guesstimation by me.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=56465&d=1360226403

That tube looks thin... The OEM arms are solid (forged?) i-section bar.

[Bush65]

Looks to me that it has had a good hit near where it failed :eek:

[psykokid]

Looks like it took a couple of good hits on some rocks which dinged it initially causing a weak point, and with the amount of shifting and jimmying the rear axle does on the terrain out here twas only a matter of time before it folded up.

Its a whole other kettle of fish out in the desert vs what i have seen of the UK style challenge events. Lots of big rocks on the course this year. I'm taking the day off of work on Friday to head out and watch the race. Should be a blast.

[justinc]

THOSE ROCKS are unbelievable. even at crawling speeds you can do some horrific damage.
Flatten/ damage a tubular member and the very next result is as above....:(
:(:(:(


This event is like no other for vehicle destruction IMO!!:o


JC

[uninformed]

yes I agree Ben, I was thinking hmmmm....very thin for that area. And was also wondering if round tube the best shape for the job (cough, cough John)

[Bush65]

yes I agree Ben, I was thinking hmmmm....very thin for that area. And was also wondering if round tube the best shape for the job (cough, cough John)
I'm not familiar with the 90 chassis, and the photo angles are deceiving, but if the A-frame is mounted like it is on a 110/rrc/disco, you wouldn't expect it to take a hit like that.

If it is lower and vulnerable then it should have been heavier wall. On a weight vs strength basis round tube is the best section for pure tension or compression members.

[uninformed]

I'm not familiar with the 90 chassis, and the photo angles are deceiving, but if the A-frame is mounted like it is on a 110/rrc/disco, you wouldn't expect it to take a hit like that.

If it is lower and vulnerable then it should have been heavier wall. On a weight vs strength basis round tube is the best section for pure tension or compression members.

John, the chassis is a 100inch Richards chassis designed by Jim Marsden. From the pics I can guesstimate that they are running their extended (300mm) trailing arms and are running a longer custom A frame in the stockish postion.

Id have to say that given this event and the terrain, that even a stock setup could take a big hit from a rock. They are everywhere and all sizes.

[uninformed]

John Currie leading the EMC, but has come to a slow/standstill with only 2-3 miles to go. Jim and Wayne in 2nd place! Gigglepin started in 33rd place. Currie has to finish 5 mins ahead to beat on corrected time

fingers and toes crossed for Gigglepin and LR

[Psimpson7]

Gigglepin now stopped at the same spot as Currie..

[uninformed]

From what Im hearing, Gigglepin now in front and leading with only a mile or so to go....still Currie has to beat them by 5 mins to win.

it aint over till its over

[Psimpson7]

win!!!!!!!!

[uninformed]

Just over the line for the WIN!!!! Amazing job by Jim, Wayne and team Gigglepin :cool:

[uninformed]

Sounds like they winched the last major hill to pass the stuck John Currie....classic. Jim saying he thought he could drive it but Wayne saying winch it. Good team work. The Provelogear/Savvy Offroad/Currie Jeep that Currie helped design/build is a top build Stock mod dominating rig

[Bush65]

Excellent news. Well done to all involved.

[uninformed]

Seems like Team Gigglepin has just had to step down and concede the win. They have full hydro steering which is a breech of the rules in Stock mod. AFAIK, the EMC (every man challenge) race is for Stock, and Mod stock rigs. You need to have mechanical steering, yes hydo assist, but not full hydro. They also ran stickies which may or maynot be a breech also??

either way, they did extremely well against some very trick custom built rigs.

They will not fair so well in the full race against the pro Ultra4 rigs

[Psimpson7]

Looks like they have conceeded the win to Currie.

Non conforming steering and tyres.

[uninformed]

keep up Pete :p

funny you and I had this convo over a week ago, they have been over there and testing all week, doing qualifiing etc and do the whole race and only get picked up on it after???

all the pics we have seen from their photo shoots have clearly showed the full hydro.

[Psimpson7]

Lol yep...

Sounds like they just wanted to race!

I had wondered if they had some weird mechanical link like that jeep last year but obviously not.

Shame really, but rules are rules.

having said that they must be happy with the car after the last weeks drama!

[uninformed]

Oh I think it is totally fair given that it is a clear break of the rules. And I dont think they set out to misslead or cheat anyone.....hell its pretty obvious that its full hydro haha

[Psimpson7]

from SimonS on Devon 4x4


Just to quell the fires a bit...
Just been to see Jim and co. They are all completely stoked at their performance today. Jim knew before he started the race that his car did not meet the regs re the hydro steering. The team wanted to race the EMC as they were here and wanted to make the most of their American adventure. Dave Cole gave them permission to race, saying that the steering would only be an issue 'if they won'. Well they did, and Jim told me he knew when he crossed the line that he probably would be disqualified. The team bear no ill will to the organizers, John Currie or anyone else.
Jim didn't know about the no sticky tires prior though.

[Psimpson7]

and a quote from the man himself:

----------------------

EMC Press release from Jim:

We have been lucky enough to have the opportunity to come to King of the Hammers, and when the car was on its way out we had a conversation, "wouldn't it be great if we could have go at the Everymans Challenge" as our vehicle is pretty much a stock car, its road legal, so we asked Dave Cole and he gave us the nod, Yes we could run EMC. So here we are and we lined up at... the back of the start line this morning. Before we started the race we were made aware that our hydraulic steering didn't really fit the rules, but we weren't too bothered as we were after wheel time, getting out there having some fun and getting more experience desert and rock racing. Dave said if you do win then expect a protest, to which we replied that we didn't expect to win.
We lined up at the back of the grid in 33rd and set off in hot pursuit of the cars in front of us.
The cars in front are amazing too, with both stock and 'modified' running, and a lot of them buggy-esque whislt retaining the silhouette of a stock car. We have the smallest wheelbase, the smallest engine, same size tyres, and we are running stock coil springs. We had a great race, and to be able to lock horns with the likes of John Currie, that was special, very special! We passed John finally during the last phases of the race up a sand hill and it was especially awesome to do so using our own designed and manufactured Gigglepin GP84 winch. A quote from the commentary was" both cars are stopped, wait Team gigglepin is now moving at 7mph" our team back at camp all shouted "they are winching!" says it all really!
We had caught John before pit 2a but we caught a rock and got a flat, and little beknown to us we were 200 yds from the pit we changed the tyre, where as we should have limped to the pt and got them to do it. This lost us a further 12 mins.
When we finished the race, Dave cole was the first one to come up and congratulate us. The first thing we asked was "Is this where we get disqualified?" we all had a laugh and a joke and carried on to the stage, a little while after the protests started coming in, so we went to discuss it with Dave. We learnt that there were also protests about our "sticky" tyres. We had no idea that they were illegal, and so as we were pulled on 2 accounts it was a no brainer that the title belonged to someone else and so we went up on stage and let the guys know. We relinquished our victory and passed it down to 2nd place John Currie. We have no hard feelings, as we have had an amazing time. Its great to be able to race against these guys, yes we didbn't conform but no one can take away from us what we have achieved.. we had parts during the build up where we didn't even think we would get to the start line, and many of the trails we raced today are virgin ground for us and we have shown what we can do.

Tomorrow we will line up for King of the Hammers

[Psimpson7]

And a few pics I have borrowed from other places.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1085.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1086.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1087.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1088.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1089.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/1090.jpg

[isuzurover]

Well done on the win. Good luck for KOH.

Just a shame they could not have swapped to non-stickys and hydro-assist steer before the race...

(I see they have lights on the roof - that must mean they are lame according to another thread on here...)

[uninformed]

Well done on the win. Good luck for KOH.

Just a shame they could not have swapped to non-stickys and hydro-assist steer before the race...

(I see they have lights on the roof - that must mean they are lame according to another thread on here...)

I think that would be a huge undertaking. The truck is RHD, but the panhard runs the opposite way to normal and is quite short. They probably dont even have room for the steering box or shafts from steering wheel to box. Then of coarse there are the mounts at the axle ends for drag link and trackrod....

Here is a link to one of the better built rigs in the same race/mod class. Look at the lengths Jesse has gone to to keep mechanical steering in a small tight package (btw he and others actually think mechanincal has advantages over full hydro) This car finished 6th over all...

JHF Mod Class KOH racer - Prepping for 2013 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/1110825-jhf-mod-class-koh-racer-prepping-2013-a.html)

btw from what I can gather there were 59 or so starters in this race and only 6 finished :eek:

[Psimpson7]

They are still running.. currently at mile marker 74ish.

Just watched them up aftershock on the main feed.

Car looks good so far...

live tracking here:

http://vulcain.iritrack.net/irc/eviewer/KOH-2013/

[Psimpson7]

Looks like they are out.. didnt move for ages on the tracking, and now showing as off the course

:(

[uninformed]

sounds like they may have had another rear A frame/ball joint failure, but fixed that and keep going. But now out due to possible crown wheel failure.

Ill speculate that if the ball joint falled and the had axle rotation, and that along with running tru hi9 R+P (coast side) contributed to crown wheel failure...


thats how im calling it with little to zero info and from 10billion miles away sitting behind my keyboard (wheeling the crap out of it mind you)

[psykokid]

Rear crown wheel did fail quite spectacularly:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/867.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2013/02/868.jpg

I went by the garage and hung out with the guys this morning as they tore down the rear end so they could take the crew out on some fun runs up chocolate thunder later in the day. In addition to the crown wheel being a bit second hand, the small needle bearing that the end of the pinion sits in was about 75% gone. Only thing that remained was about half of the outer metal shell that the needles seat in. The rest of the shell had been ground through.

From what they said the rear let go on the second lap right near hwy 19. We were waiting at the entrance to wrecking ball for them to come through. After the leaders made their second lap we went to the start finish line and found the racer in the garage. The rate of attrition was high this year: 127 trucks started, 30 finished :o

[Slunnie]

The rate of attrition was high this year: 127 trucks started, 30 finished :o

I'm surprised that many got through Sledgehammer! They'd just about need another vehicle in the hole to get through it

[uninformed]

Would be very intersing to know why it failed? How much the A Frame/ball joint failures contributed, the fact they are running on the coast side of R&P causing large side forces.

Does anyone know if they were running load bolts/pegged diff?

I suspect the narrowed bearing spacing on the carrier doesnt help either,but not much can be done about that if running in a Rover housing...

[psykokid]

On the rear diff it was not pegged..

[ashtrans]

I would suspect the needle roller bearing on the end on the pinion failed due to the side forces of running the high 9 gears on the coast side, then the gears come partly out of mesh and the teeth then come off, these needle bearings have failed before on the rear 4.11 true high 9 gears that Jim was previously running, as per my previous post, the problem is running the true high 9 gears on the coast side, pegging may have helped but it is just a way of trying to contain this side force, to make it reliable you have to change the tooth pressure angles like we have with our force 9 ring and pinions, I have shown true high 9 how to do this about 2 years ago but I don't think they have done it on any yet, certainly Jim's ones were not modified,

[Bush65]

yes I agree Ben, I was thinking hmmmm....very thin for that area. And was also wondering if round tube the best shape for the job (cough, cough John)


... On a weight vs strength basis round tube is the best section for pure tension or compression members.
Further to that last comment, the legs of an A-frame are not links in the true meaning of link (can resist only axial loads).

Many years ago, I was contemplating a triangulated 4 link for the rear of my bushie. The problem was that the chassis rails are too close together and the triangulation angle is too low, resulting in high forces unless you use short upper links.

The high axial plus bending forces from the low angle in an A-frame, are probably why the stock unit has such massive arms. The longer A-frame in the GP rover will suffer even more.

[uninformed]

I would suspect the needle roller bearing on the end on the pinion failed due to the side forces of running the high 9 gears on the coast side, then the gears come partly out of mesh and the teeth then come off, these needle bearings have failed before on the rear 4.11 true high 9 gears that Jim was previously running, as per my previous post, the problem is running the true high 9 gears on the coast side, pegging may have helped but it is just a way of trying to contain this side force, to make it reliable you have to change the tooth pressure angles like we have with our force 9 ring and pinions, I have shown true high 9 how to do this about 2 years ago but I don't think they have done it on any yet, certainly Jim's ones were not modified,

Do your R+P from the Force9 bolt into a Tru Hi9?

[uninformed]

Further to that last comment, the legs of an A-frame are not links in the true meaning of link (can resist only axial loads).

Many years ago, I was contemplating a triangulated 4 link for the rear of my bushie. The problem was that the chassis rails are too close together and the triangulation angle is too low, resulting in high forces unless you use short upper links.

The high axial plus bending forces from the low angle in an A-frame, are probably why the stock unit has such massive arms. The longer A-frame in the GP rover will suffer even more.

The stock LR A Frame is 40-45 degrees of trainagulaion combined angle from bush center to ball center. I believe that you dont want to go much under this to have decent lateral axle control. I was thinking (and disregard geometry for a minute) what if a person made the chassis mounts on top of the chassis rails to get further speration left to right. This on a longer A frame would retain some angle. Yes the arms would have to bend up and out and require some smart design. And I do understand that would mean the arms having to be stronger, but would the fact that the bushes are now further apart help somewhat?

[Red90]

The stock LR A Frame is 40-45 degrees of trainagulaion combined angle from bush center to ball center. I believe that you dont want to go much under this to have decent lateral axle control. I was thinking (and disregard geometry for a minute) what if a person made the chassis mounts on top of the chassis rails to get further speration left to right. This on a longer A frame would retain some angle. Yes the arms would have to bend up and out and require some smart design. And I do understand that would mean the arms having to be stronger, but would the fact that the bushes are now further apart help somewhat?

I'm pretty sure this would mess up the anti-squat geometry, never mind the clearance issues.

[ashtrans]

Do your R+P from the Force9 bolt into a Tru Hi9?

Yes, I can't think why they wouldn't

Dave

[uninformed]

I'm pretty sure this would mess up the anti-squat geometry, never mind the clearance issues.

I guess you missed the bit where I said, (and disregard geomtery for a minute)

but go on, explain the clearance issues....

[uninformed]

here is one of Team Gigglepin's videos from there week racing in the USA.

KOH overtaking - YouTube

some great footage of driving and winching :cool:

[justinc]

Winching quicker than most could drive it, LIKE IT!
:D:D

JC

[uninformed]

some of the faster stuff:

KOH Thru the small whoops and onto the fast stuff - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tQ4U1EfsG8w)

[uninformed]

driving and winching "Backdoor"

KOH Backdoor - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k_8JSSEzhug)

[Willo47]

Thanks for your support folks,

here is a link to my Team Gigglepin write up:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yd0qcgfqf4e32eq/KOHpdf.pdf

[inside]

Trailer

*Official Trailer** Vindication: 2013 Griffin King of The Hammers Presented by Nitto Tire - YouTube

[modman]

Waiting.............
I'd be happy just too walk around the pits admiring the fab work:eek:
That looks like a LR in the opening shots atop a ridge?? But a lot if buggies have LR like square bodies
KOH 2013 requires a new thread
Wonder how much LR content this year??
Dc

[uninformed]

umm havent we already had KOH 2013?

[modman]

Ummmm.... what....who......????
Oh yeah
I guess the Lawson's didn't drive rovers
I gotta lot of utoob to watch!!
Dc