Thinking of trading in the Discovery 3 for a new Defender

[herrBlick]

Here are my thoughts
I have been caught in a catch 22 with this , I love my Discovery but I would love a new defender. I could get hopefully 40,000 and get a brand new Defender with and extra bit of Fianance. But would I enjoy driving it as much ? Is it that much more uncomfortable ? Will I miss the terrain response ? Will it hold its value better ? Can I go back in the luxury stakes... I am sure these are questions that some of you have asked yourself.
As I said before I do love my Disco but the idea of a new Defender is tantalising.

[connock]

That is what I am seriously consdering but when the new model comes out around 2015
Apparenly with the comfort and TR etc etc
wait and see I suppose

[Mick_Marsh]

I'm assuming you have the one car. If it was me, I would keep the Discovery.

[herrBlick]

Yes it's a complete head fry
I love the look of the crew cab 56281
It would be very versatile

[Slunnie]

I have no doubt in my mind at all that a test drive will confirm that you want to keep the Discovery. If you're still bent on getting one, then maybe look at an older Defender or County. The only difference between the old and new ones is the motors got smaller and the vehicles got weaker.

[AnD3rew]

I like the idea from a kind of romantic perspective as well but when you think about it, you have to spend a lot of money on mods to make a defender as capable off road as the disco and there isn't enough money in the world to make a defender as comfortable and capable and safe on road as a disco.

It's a no brainer really. Wait till the new one comes out and see what the equation looks like then.

[CSBrisie]

Yeah for me (as I'm a big Defender fan too) it's the on road handling, comfort and safety that will keep me in a Disco for now.

[rick130]

And some of us just don't know any better, keep driving a Deefer everyday and smile :D

[herrBlick]

Haha as I suspected quite a few of you have had a good think about it... Yes it is now for me a romantic idea plus the wife and our daughter don't think they could hack it

[Chops]

Yes it's a complete head fry
I love the look of the crew cab 56281
It would be very versatile

I came out of a V8 D2, I know it's probably not as good in any way as a D3, but it was still a shock to the system. Nowhere near the comfort, and on long trips, I really miss my cruise control and extra legroom.
But having said that,, I'm happier than the preverbial pig :D

I guess you need to ask yourself "Why?". What's your actual reasoning for wanting to swap into a bare bones car from luxury. For me, it's all about a long term plan for long term touring.

If I had the money, I'd have both, :cool:

[scarry]

And some of us just don't know any better, keep driving a Deefer everyday and smile :D

And financially way,way ahead:D

i drive the sons deefer every now and again,couldn't do it all the time after the D4 or even the D2.

But for remote area travel,hard 4WDing,it wins all the time,and resale is MUCH better than any Disco.

[rangie ute on 38'']

I had a defender ute and now a d2 td5 and contantly looking for another defender to get back into, there not that uncomfortable, i found it great to travel in especially when my ute before it was a leaf sprung cruiser, go drive one of them and the deefer rides like a cloud. i could imagine taller blokes could find the fender tight

[Chops]

To add to what I said earlier,,
The biggest problem I have in the Defender is clutching all the time. For the 15+ years I've driven an auto, I also have a "Dickie" knee, so driving in the city is hard sometimes. This is really only a problem when I've already been behind the wheel all day.

[ozscott]

Bucket loads of character. My d2 5sp manual v8 has it on 31's with a moded exhaust. . Truck feel but not a leaf spring truck feel. Surprisingly comfortable. Hope your also asking this question in the Deefer section...

Cheers

[djambalawa]

I thought I'd like one until I drove one.. No good to those who are horizontally challenged... I'd have to cut my right arm off :)

Was drivable for me with the window down.. So I could stick my elbow out...

Must be getting old and soft :)

[Tombie]

Went D1 to Def to D2 and D4.

Do I enjoy driving Defenders - Yes...

Would I have another - Yes...

Would I get rid of a D3/D4 to have it... No bloody way :p

Would I park it next to the D3/D4... Absolutely :D

[Dirty3]

I thought I'd like one until I drove one.. No good to those who are horizontally challenged... I'd have to cut my right arm off :)

Was drivable for me with the window down.. So I could stick my elbow out...

Must be getting old and soft :)

It has always been my dream vehicle but I too found it ergonomically challenging. I'm 6'4 and nowhere to put your right arm, same issue had to have the window down. Seat leg room can be fixed with aftermarket rail runners, but sideways? The poms don't like to change much in the Defenders. Maybe they are all short?? :p
But seriously, they should look at it……please?

[isuzurover]

...you have to spend a lot of money on mods to make a defender as capable off road as the disco ....

:D :D :D :rofl

Sorry, but that is the funniest thing I have read all week.

A stock D90 or D110 runs rings around a stock D3 offroad. More ground clearance, better wheel travel, better approach and departure angles.

I have idled up hills in my 110 (unlocked) that D3s and D4s struggled with (due to tyres and ground clearance) - but eventually got up on the 5th or 6th attempt.

Not to say the OP should change vehicles, but seriously, take off the blinkers...

[discotwinturbo]

:D :D :D :rofl

Sorry, but that is the funniest thing I have read all week.

A stock D90 or D110 runs rings around a stock D3 offroad. More ground clearance, better wheel travel, better approach and departure angles.

I have idled up hills in my 110 (unlocked) that D3s and D4s struggled with (due to tyres and ground clearance) - but eventually got up on the 5th or 6th attempt.

Not to say the OP should change vehicles, but seriously, take off the blinkers...

I think the deefer is very capable offroad, but there are quite a few youtube videos that suggest the deefer struggles in spots (actually could not make it up) on the Powerlines in Perth, where the D4 and Range Rover sports make it look much easier. The deefer had better wheel travel, but the traction control was not in the same calibre and it just sat there spinning opposite wheels. That's only one example though. I will find the link and work out how to post them on here.

I have recently seen a mate in his deefer, easily climbing sand dunes where the rest of us put more hammer down. The skinner tyres stayed perfectly within the compacted tracks of vehicles with bigger tyres and required little effort.

Brett....

[isuzurover]

I think the deefer is very capable offroad, but there are quite a few youtube videos that suggest the deefer struggles in spots (actually could not make it up) on the Powerlines in Perth, where the D4 and Range Rover sports make it look much easier. The deefer had better wheel travel, but the traction control was not in the same calibre and it just sat there spinning opposite wheels. That's only one example though. I will find the link and work out how to post them on here.

I have recently seen a mate in his deefer, easily climbing sand dunes where the rest of us put more hammer down. The skinner tyres stayed perfectly within the compacted tracks of vehicles with bigger tyres and required little effort.

Brett....

I would be keen to see any of the vids you mention... The ones I have seen usually show older (non-etc) defenders vs d3s or d4s...

The disco certainly has better traction control.

However it doesn't help here against a (non-etc?) D90.
Landrover Defender 90 vs Discovery 3 up a steep hill - YouTube

The D3 does better here - however the 110 seems to be a V8? (hence non-etc).
Defender vs Discovery 3 - YouTube

[AndrewGJones]

I saw that video, and those sort of comparisons are silly. When the traction control, airbags, and electrickery are all full of water,sand, mud, dust and spinifex, and you have to actually travel a 100ks through real bush (not afternoon picnic of pointless 'tests' haha, let's see it do spinidex at 60km for 100 clicks - oh that's right, they catch on fire!) I'll take the 110 thanks. heck, if that is a real comparison of what 'off road capability' is, then I guess we should all rush out and get H1's because i saw one climb a wall (so very handy, I don't know how I get by really)!

:soapbox:


but back on topic-

My suggestion; if you don't look back in admiration when you park the car, you are driving the wrong one.

[ozscott]

Don't get me wrong... I like live axles, big tyres and clearance and anything short is a compromise off road - ie the trade off for on road handling and ride. BUT that d3 v shorty was not a fair compare. If the d3 had better tyres and better driver it would get up there. I see the first up was a d1. For offloading in think it's hard to go past a well molded d1 or d2 or defender but if you own a d3/4 and love it you might find it a stretch to move into a less civilized vehicle.

Cheers

[SBD4]

I think the deefer is very capable offroad, but there are quite a few youtube videos that suggest the deefer struggles in spots (actually could not make it up) on the Powerlines in Perth, where the D4 and Range Rover sports make it look much easier. The deefer had better wheel travel, but the traction control was not in the same calibre and it just sat there spinning opposite wheels. That's only one example though. I will find the link and work out how to post them on here.

I have recently seen a mate in his deefer, easily climbing sand dunes where the rest of us put more hammer down. The skinner tyres stayed perfectly within the compacted tracks of vehicles with bigger tyres and required little effort.

Brett....
Brett, I think this is what you're after:

23Jun2012 0016 - YouTube

23Jun2012 0017 - YouTube

There are examples everywhere D3/D4/RRS bettering the Defender AND visa versa ... tyres and driver ability is the biggest influencing factor. They are all Land Rovers and they are all good in my book.

[TerryO]

There both very different vehicles that come from different era's but are still sold alongside ech other.

I have always had a soft spot for a Defender but in reality it's amazing that in 2013 you cn still buy them new given the stiff safety requirements being imposed for vehicle occupants now a days. Because unfortunately there is little to protect you or your family if you have a serious accident in one.

Add in the fact that many people can't psychically even fit in them to drive them and in many ways it speaks volumes for them as a vehicle that they still can be sold in commercially viable numbers.

There are plenty of horror story's about the reliability of them as well no matter what any Defender owner says, just go do some research in the Defender section to find out. Equally so they can't tow a decent weight and only have a reasonable max ball weight.

Are they more capable of road, often yes but not always especially when a D3/4 has been properly modified. Few Defenders that have been modified and are very capable off road would pass a RTA road side check for ADR compliance if stopped I would guess after checking out many when off road.

And would I sell my D3 HSE with logic7 stereo, electric memory leather seats, centre cool box, adaptive HID headlights, arm rests, quite and powerful engine and smooth auto and the amazingly adjustable air suspension and excellent Terrain Response systems and that can tow 3.5 ton easily without a WDH for a brand new very basic loud, rattly, uncomfortable cloth seated Defender with a stereo that sounded very average back in 1985 and that has surpringly very little storage space in the back or even room for decent sized passengers?

The answer would be no.

Having said that Defender owners have a right to be very passionate about their vehicles just as D3/4 owners do so each to their own. One thing that is interesting though, there are very few D3/4/RRS owners who post in the Defender section but there are plenty of Defender owners who read and post here.

I think that in its self speaks volumes.

cheers,
Terry :)

[ozscott]

Terry - you were probably right about legalities, but now many would be complaint in Qld without certification since late last year. Given that the Deefer has skinny 31's and heaps of clearance to start with you can modify in the new Standard and have a hell of a mud puppy!

Cheers

[TerryO]

Same goes for a D3/4, you can now fit legally 2" larger tyres due to the recently announced National standards which even runs in parallel to the current NSW standards, though in NSW's that means you need to get the vehicle checked by an engineer, but the same goes for either a Defender or a D3/4 in NSW.

The new standard gives a Defender just over an inch extra in tyres legally compared to 32" tyred D3/4 which ain't a lot, more importantly off road they have better ramp over angles even when a D3/4 has either Llams or GOA rods fitted, but that's not the whole story when off road so there are swings and round a bouts. In that department a well modified RRS would be much better than a D3/4 because of its shorter wheel base, but then again a short wheel base isn't everything.

Personally I'd rather be in my old D3 going through mud and water knowing that its not going to leak round the door seals in to the cabin then be in the average poorly assembled Defender that are known for leaking water and dust round theirs. ...:wasntme:


cheers,
Terry

[rick130]

There both very different vehicles that come from different era's but are still sold alongside ech other.

I have always had a soft spot for a Defender but in reality it's amazing that in 2013 you cn still buy them new given the stiff safety requirements being imposed for vehicle occupants now a days. Because unfortunately there is little to protect you or your family if you have a serious accident in one.

Add in the fact that many people can't psychically even fit in them to drive them and in many ways it speaks volumes for them as a vehicle that they still can be sold in commercially viable numbers.

There are plenty of horror story's about the reliability of them as well no matter what any Defender owner says, just go do some research in the Defender section to find out. Equally so they can't tow a decent weight and only a reasonable max ball weight.
[snip]

cheers,
Terry :)

No air bags ? Yep. Secondary safety items are lacking, but in the modern wagons at least you have primary safety items like ABS.
Being full time 4wd (like the D3/4) is a major safety plus IMO over the opposition commercial vehicles, which if we all remember is what it is.
A Deefer is a work truck first, designed to carry a payload and occupants to and from work over varying terrain, but if you have a big hit it may not be pretty, and with a family that may be of a concern.

Most can't fit in them ?

Really ?

Lets see, isuzurover is, how tall are you Ben ? 6'3" or so ? I'm 6'2" (and all legs), uninformed is at least as tall as me, Tombie is a little, er, more robustly built than most and Mike drove his ok.
Yep, shoulder room can be lacking (and I'm broad across the shoulders) but it's ok, you fit.
The actual seating position is actually very, very good, and the minimalist seats offer really good lumbar support.
Even the squab length is OK, even though they appear to offer bugger all support.
Everyone seems to bag the ergonomics, yet in fact the steering wheel/seat/pedals/gears relationship is pretty good, and the height of each promotes a relaxed driving position on long runs.
It actually runs rings around our GU Patrol. (yes, yes, I know the Patrol is a dated design too)

Can't tow a decent weight ?
Seriously ?
Have you checked out the towing capacities ?
Have you seen how a TDci is geared ?

The thing that would worry me towing with a modern Deefer is the rear diff, QA on the diffs are shocking, but there are plenty of stories of D3's lunching diffs too and I find it hard to trust a diff with only 600ml in the front and 1 litre of fluid in the rear diff.

Very, very easy to run the diff extremely hot with that small amount, regardless of the quality of your fluid.

I live with a Deefer on a daily basis, I spend a lot of time in it as it works for a living.
The noise can be a pain, but it's the only thing that I find tiring or annoying on a trip.
Maybe I just don't know any better ? :D

[ozscott]

....

The new standard gives a Defender just over an inch extra in tyres legally compared to 32" tyred D3/4 which ain't a lot...

cheers,
Terry

Terry we are talking 33"of tyre in the Defender not 32" of rim in the D3....:D:D:wasntme:

Cheers

PS. Its the price one pays for having the brakes to comfortably tow 3 tonn...cant get small rims around the brakes to allow proper rubber that deforms and molds and has a nice LONG footprint! You just cant beat having real traction on the ground...

[ozscott]

...
The thing that would worry me towing with a modern Deefer is the rear diff, QA on the diffs are shocking, but there are plenty of stories of D3's lunching diffs too and I find it hard to trust a diff with only 600ml in the front and 1 litre of fluid in the rear diff.

Very, very easy to run the diff extremely hot with that small amount, regardless of the quality of your fluid.

... :D

I didnt realise how small the new ones were. The D2 runs the same 1.7 litres from dry in front and in the rear.

Cheers

[rick130]

I didnt realise how small the new ones were. The D2 runs the same 1.7 litres from dry in front and in the rear.

Cheers


Yep, D3 (and I assume D4) diff fluid volumes are tiny.

A Sals holds around 2.3l from memory, and you can increase this easily with an aftermarket diff cover.

I use around 3l in mine.

[rick130]

A slightly different slant.

Those of us that own 90/110/130's went into ownership knowing full well the compromises and pitfalls involved and are prepared to live with them.
Often you'll find Deefer owners hanging onto their vehicles for a very long time, not just the lease period, or have owned multiple examples over several decades.

We are a breed apart :D

If you can't live with the compromises, that's fine, but please, if you are considering ownership go in with with your eyes open, not with some romantic notion of crossing the Simpson and Canning every second week.

A 90/110/130 isn't a modern appliance, and for some of us that's the major appeal. You can't just jump in and expect it to drive itself, it needs input from you, you actually need to drive it.

One may not be able to live with the sort of commitment and compromise living with a modern legend entails.
For those that can, the rewards are sublime, for the rest, you can dream, and that's OK too :angel:

[TerryO]

Come on Rick you may be tall but your built like a stick person (according to your avatar) so yes you should fit in a Fender, once you have fitted extended sets rails that is. ...:p

Re Defenders being a commercial vehicle so they don't need airbags or frontal crash testing to pass minimum standards to be giving ADR passenger vehicle compliance, that is a loop hole that has allowed new Fenders to be sold as passenger vehicles to the Australian public and few reasonable minded people would say its either safe or a good idea.

I accept that new Fenders are now rated to tow 3.5 ton but they still have a max ball weight of just 250 kg which means its near impossible to tow legally a decent sized off road van given the accepted norm of most Aussie vans being built with a 10% ball weight.

Plus of the Fender owners I have spoken with just about to a man they all say it would be a very slow trip towing anything over 2 ton.

I asked these questions last year in the Fender section when in a moment of madness thought about buying a new 110.

Scott, re wheels, I have 17's on my D3, which is only 1/2 inch less side wall top and bottom than if I had similar sized tyres fitted to my 16" shod D1.

Every vehicle has compromises and strengths, for me I'd rather put up with the ramp over angle and tyre size compromises of a late model Disco than the safety and comfort compromises of a Fender.

But as I said each to their own.

cheers,
Terry

[ozscott]

Good post mate. I took the middle road with my D1 and D2 (and still own both - the D2 from new in 02). I love my D2 more so because its a manual and I have to drive it, and drive the traction control to make it work properly. But it is just so much fun! I love the Deefers also and have driven a few, but I wanted a V8 and unless I wanted to go back in years to a County that was what decided it.

Cheers

[ozscott]

Thats not bad Terry. I think the D3 with 17's may end up the last of the Disco's with half decent rubber options. I wont go any further due to the gagging of talk about 'other' rum sizes...

Cheers

[TerryO]

I think your right Scott, new Disco's will all be stuck with a minimum of 18's at best which is not ideal.

Chances are the new Defender a couple of years away will be much more capable off road (heres hoping) and more like a Disco than a Fender so who knows in 2016 I to might own a Fender ...;)

As Scott said Rick your last post is a good one and explains it well.

Cheers,
Terry

[steane]

A slightly different slant.

Those of us that own 90/110/130's went into ownership knowing full well the compromises and pitfalls involved and are prepared to live with them.
Often you'll find Deefer owners hanging onto their vehicles for a very long time, not just the lease period, or have owned multiple examples over several decades.

We are a breed apart :D

If you can't live with the compromises, that's fine, but please, if you are considering ownership go in with with your eyes open, not with some romantic notion of crossing the Simpson and Canning every second week.

A 90/110/130 isn't a modern appliance, and for some of us that's the major appeal. You can't just jump in and expect it to drive itself, it needs input from you, you actually need to drive it.

One may not be able to live with the sort of commitment and compromise living with a modern legend entails.
For those that can, the rewards are sublime, for the rest, you can dream, and that's OK too :angel:

Nailed it Rick. And I'll take the 'real drive' everytime thanks ;)

[AndrewGJones]

. One thing that is interesting though, there are very few D3/4/RRS owners who post in the Defender section but there are plenty of Defender owners who read and post here.

I think that in its self speaks volumes.

cheers,
Terry :)

speaks volumes about what?

Have a think about the various things you may be implying and whether your 'evidence' backs it up. When you have, kindly list them for me, I'm always one for some feedback about myself. Though you may find, on deeper inspection, there are a fair few implications you may not have considered, some that may not be so flattering to your position.


I would own a D4 now worries, but I don't; mainly money but also space (as usual).

funny thing, just spoke to a mate whose mate (yep, a mate of mate story) whose late model landcruiser just got written of on the beach.

did he roll it? No. Hit a tree, a reef, another car? No. He got is wet on the beach up to the door sills. It destroyed the electrics and got bogged (windscreen wipers going crazy, lights flashing, etc). tide came in an finished it off. If he had been relying on that car for family safety, they would not be very safe in a real 'adventure' situation.

If you are worried about your families safety, don't go anywhere off road in a electronic car. If you are worried about the most comfortable solution to spend the weekend, rent a DVD.

the OP wants a defender. He just doesn't know why yet. when he gets it, he will know why and won't miss the comforts.

[DiscoWeb]

A slightly different slant.

Those of us that own 90/110/130's went into ownership knowing full well the compromises and pitfalls involved and are prepared to live with them.
Often you'll find Deefer owners hanging onto their vehicles for a very long time, not just the lease period, or have owned multiple examples over several decades.

We are a breed apart :D

If you can't live with the compromises, that's fine, but please, if you are considering ownership go in with with your eyes open, not with some romantic notion of crossing the Simpson and Canning every second week.

A 90/110/130 isn't a modern appliance, and for some of us that's the major appeal. You can't just jump in and expect it to drive itself, it needs input from you, you actually need to drive it.

One may not be able to live with the sort of commitment and compromise living with a modern legend entails.
For those that can, the rewards are sublime, for the rest, you can dream, and that's OK too :angel:

Rick130, Great summary and completely true.

I own a D3.

I purchased it to give me a comfortable, large vehicle that would easily accommodate my family. I knew it would spend the vast majority of its time doing city based driving with the occasional road trip. At no time did I look at a Defender other than walking past it on the show room floor.

I also purchased a D3 because I thought that if I was to buy a SUV/4wd I might as well get one that I could actually use as a 4wd, when and if I did decide to take it off road. Using it off road was not a given as I had never done any 4wding before purchasing the D3

Now cost obviously is a factor as you are talking about an almost 100% jump in pricing between the two. Realistically if a new Defender was the budget I still would not have looked at it as there are more car like 4wd option both new and 2nd hand at or around the same price point.

Having done plenty of trips with defenders I can honestly say that often their traction control seems to get confused and makes things the D3 walks up seem difficult for them. Alternatively a well sorted Defender with some bigger tyres, maybe a locker etc will go places I would never take my D3.

The videos used to provide a point in this thread are as much down to tyre choice as anything else, although the one SBD4 posted show a good example of where the standard defender TC seems to get confused.

For what I want out of my vehicle would I change to a defender. NO. If I wanted a lower cost option I would probably go the new Jeep or even a Prado:wasntme:

Do I sometimes look at a well sorted Defender on the road and fleetingly think romantic thoughts about spending time climbing difficult tracks and our touring in the remote outback etc, YES. But they soon disappear as I crank up the stereo and settle back into my comfortable leather seat and watch the Defender disappear in my rear view mirror:p

IMHO, Each to their own and the Disco and defender are very different cars almost impossible to compare them really.

George.

[newlandyowner]

At least the D3, D4 or Defender aren't this thirsty.....

Drive - Nissan Patrol Review (http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/first-drive-review-nissan-patrol-20130205-2dv93.html)

[AndrewGJones]

defender traction control used to be the right foot jambed against the side of the cab. the driver would pick the line with his advanced 'steering wheel' technology and have a grand old time. He would not be listening to the radio, or adjusting the aircon, or watching the pretty lights on the dash - because he was having way to much fun.

I took my work 2010 ranger out before xmas for some work related 4WD. auto, electronic engaged 4WD, 6 stack CD player, aircon.

In a word; Boring.

Best fun was driving home on some nicely graded mining tracks at 110km.

Again, why ask the question, "should i trade my D3 for a defender?" you ask because you know that there is more to driving than the comforts. There is something very visceral about being an intergral part of what the machine is capable of. It's funny to read about late model defender traction control in general. i hope Tata go back to the roots with the next model and get rid of all that *beep*.

The defender should be a 30K purchase without the electronic engines and gizmos; the more it heads into luxury territory, the less fun it becomes and more it's heritage becomes irrelevant.

I still wave to discos though, any chance to be friendly on the road is a plus. there is some 'you don't know what your missing' in my wave though, to be honest. :p

[ozscott]

A new Defender would be nice if it went back to decent sized diffs, and if you could get an option of factory lockers, but its not going to happen.

Cheers

[strangy]

It's actually not that complicated and Rick 130 summed it up.
Defender is a work truck with an extreme off road bias.

Discovery is family wagon with a compromise split with a strong comfort on road bias.
A D2 has been my weapon of choice for many years for this reason.

Now the " family wagon" which had to give the best balance for our circumstances is no longer the case.

Now an older 130 dual cab is the perfect vehicle for our circumstances and a new wagon of any ilk wouldn't be considered.

Though not really apples for apples for apples, I know my Defender will be in the rear mirror of most any vehicles... Until the terrain it was built for begins... I don't need to speculate about the condition of electrics or leather seats when crossing water or beach.

No matter how nice the new vehicles are, long term ownership as a serious 4wd they ain't.

[AndrewGJones]

It's more than that though. It's a mindset, you become more and more a driver, and less a passenger. You want to know what the parts of your car are doing, and you have half an chance on a defender of finding out. You want the window open and don't mind the exercise in doing so, and couldn't care less about music -turbos sound better than most of the junk around anyway. You like the fact that the vehicle needs you to chose a gear, pick a line, and that your lack of acceleration means you have plenty of time to stop! You no longer put your foot down to slot into traffic, you look at the other drivers in the eye, smile, wave, and join the queue to the next stop light!

You are no longer following the herd, (or are just transporting them), but you are on an adventure, one that you were already on when it occurred to you to consider a 60 year old design in the first place- actually experiencing driving and the world around you and not living in a cocoon.

[rb30gtr]

Do I smell a D3 for sale???

[isuzurover]

.... tyres and driver ability is the biggest influencing factor. They are all Land Rovers and they are all good in my book.

Agreed! My aim was simply to correct the grossly incorrect statement by AnD3rew.

I think we have established that out of the box they are similarly capable, with tyres and driver skill being the biggest limitations.

If your primary aim is to set up a capable offroad vehicle, a Defender will do the job better for a lot less money. Lockers and better tyres are cheap and plentiful off the shelf, as are suspension options.

Whereas the D3/4/RRS has a front locker coming soon, a (sort of) rear locker, tyre and wheel choices are severely limited, etc...



One thing that is interesting though, there are very few D3/4/RRS owners who post in the Defender section but there are plenty of Defender owners who read and post here.

I think that in its self speaks volumes.

Not sure what it speaks volumes about??? The bias of Disco owners that they won't stoop to post in the Defender section??? (Maybe there aren't enough threads about which parts of your seats are pleather in there ;) :D )

Personally, I just click the "New Posts" button. I rarely notice which section a thread is in, and the isuzu section is probably the only one I actually scroll through the threads in (rarely).

[TeamFA]

One thing that is interesting though, there are very few D3/4/RRS owners who post in the Defender section but there are plenty of Defender owners who read and post here.

I think that in its self speaks volumes.

cheers,
Terry :)

Is that because D3/4/RRS drivers are snobs?

(inserts a smilie, ducks for cover then runs away! Just a light-hearted attempt at a joke in an already badly-hijacked thread)

[TerryO]

Having said that Defender owners have a right to be very passionate about their vehicles just as D3/4 owners do so each to their own. One thing that is interesting though, there are very few D3/4/RRS owners who post in the Defender section but there are plenty of Defender owners who read and post here.

I think that in its self speaks volumes.

cheers,
Terry :)


Ok my comment above has already received lots of feedback which is exactly why I said it in the first place.

Since I made this comment roughly seven Defender owners have responded to this thread, one D2 owner and just one other D3 owner, even though I'm sure plenty have read it and said nothing.

So it's fair to say I was correct and plenty of Fender owners do read and respond to comments in the D3/4/RRS section, which is good thing. But as I said take Tombie out of the equation and few D3/4 owners would read Fender posts.

There is no doubt that many Defender owners see their vehicles as the epitome of what a true 4x4 is and many see most other 4x4 vehicles as not being quite in the same league. The funny thing is there is nearly as many interesting debates (:eek:) amongst Defender / Puma owners about which year model is the real true 4x4 Defender then there is about how they are superior to everything else.

So come on guys lighten up your LR's serve the purpose you want to use them for in most cases and Disco's serve their purpose as well in most cases.

Neither is perfect but you must admit deep down you all secretly desire owning a late model Disco because they are far superior and you don't get your feet wet when it rains or when you go through big puddles ...:wasntme:;)

As being snobs, that's simply not correct ...we know we are superior ...:angel:

Anyway I'm off, its that time of the week when a bloke needs to go cut and polish the paint on his D3 and clean and moisturise the leather seats and last but not least put some tyre black on his HT tyres. ...;)

Now that's what being a true Land Rover owner is all about isn't it. ...:o

cheers,
Terry ;)

[ozscott]

If your not wearing a cardigan while you are doing it, you are not a true LR owner Terry.:D

Cheers

PS. Of course deefer and D2 owners might read the D3/4 post because of the amusing tales about the evils of soft sand and blown turbos (wasnt me!!!).

Or it may be that we want to help because many people who buy a D3/4 have never wheeled before and we might be of some assistance...

[AndrewGJones]

nice save Terry, smooth like only a toffy disco owner could!

I think, when you look at the questions being asked, 'should I trade in my D3 and buy a DEFENDER?', you may find the actual reason for the replies; we were asked!

Technically though, and as you brought it up, Countys are the king of the 4x4 pile, especially black hybrid ones that blow equally menacing black smoke...

[TerryO]

If your not wearing a cardigan while you are doing it, you are not a true LR owner Terry.:D



Cardigan you gotta be joking! ...like all proud and self rightous Land Rover owners I wear a fluro Mankini when washing the car. ...dont you? ...:eek:

cheers,
Terry

[TerryO]

Technically though, and as you brought it up, Countys are the king of the 4x4 pile, especially black hybrid ones that blow equally menacing black smoke...


Seriously! ...I was told by a very experienced off road driving Puma owner that the new 2.2 Puma was far superior to the old rattlers especially the slow poke vibrating Countys and those TD5 Fenders are meant to be real bad, especially the Xtreme model which he reckoned were just over rated piles of junk!

I couldn't possibly repeat what he said about the TDI 200's or 300's it was that bad.


You mean to say he fibbed? ...:eek:


cheers,
Terry ;)

[AndrewGJones]

I think you should have a car washing party together, but be careful to ring ahead so as not to wear the same colour flouro, that would be awkward.

Meanwhile I'll be rust converting like real men are meant to be. :BigThumb:

[AndrewGJones]

something like this maybe;

RMG Mankini Car Wash - YouTube

[gghaggis]

What an amusing thread this has morphed into - helpful deefer/D2 owners scrambling to assist hapless D3/D4 owners (and no doubt us equally inept offroading RRS owners).

To the OP - bet you didn't think you'd bring this on, did you? However, I presume you're asking this question in the D3/D4/RRS section to garner opinions from owners of those vehicles, and will no doubt ask the same question of the Deefer boys in their own, hallowed area. My opinion is that if you've never lived with a Defender, you'll regret it. It's something you should experience at least once - even if you just borrow one. But a Puma? Too far from the ideal the Defender is supposed to be. Buy a County V8 or a TD5 on the cheap and keep the D3. You'll regret selling it.

As for which is the better offroader, well I'm sure a few of you would suspect I have a few opinions on that, but it's unlikely to be short post - maybe some other thread.

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

...by implication from Gordon's post there are D3/4 owners to answer here and Deefer owners to answer there, then D2 owners should bugger off:D Oh well ok then:( In the naughty corner:D

Cheers

[isuzurover]

...

As for which is the better offroader, well I'm sure a few of you would suspect I have a few opinions on that, but it's unlikely to be short post - maybe some other thread.

Cheers,

Gordon

Happy to pit my 110 against your RRS any time Gordon. I am still running stock suspension height, so you would need to remove your suspension rods ;).

I have no ETC, and would even be happy to disconnect the front locker to make thing a bit more even.

[TerryO]

I reckon if poor old Herr Blick is still reading this thread that he started then chances are he will sell the D3 and go buy a Prado just to get away from all the Land Rover nutters on here.

Especially all those very odd Defender owners! ...:D ...or as the Series owners call the Pretender owners. ...:angel:

cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

Happy to pit my 110 against your RRS any time Gordon. I am still running stock suspension height, so you would need to remove your suspension rods ;).

I have no ETC, and would even be happy to disconnect the front locker to make thing a bit more even.

No need to pull your car apart! Happy to have you tag along on the next recce, normally have a Puma along as well. No mud tyres though, we only do the recce's and courses on road or AT's.

Cheers,

Gordon

[steane]

Defender owners bought the 4WD they wanted to buy.

D3/D4 owners bought the 4WD their wife gave them permission to buy.

If you wear the pants in your family, get the D90 ;)

We dare you :twisted:

[AndrewGJones]

sorry didn't see the pink line painted around this section, I'll be careful to stay out and wait for direct questions posted to the muddy rabble. don't speak until spoken too, got it.

The guy wants to grow a pair, take his wife and daughter properly camping in something other than a loungeroom-on-wheels.

Even if it is a Transit van he is considering...

[JamesH]

you have to spend a lot of money on mods to make a defender as capable off road as the disco

I moved from the Defender to the D4 and glad I did but I don't think I'll wear that one.

TR systems are all well and good but I'd trust my 19" Wranglers on the gravel drive of a Margaret River winery and that's about it. I could hop into a Defender and drive it straight up the nasty bits of the Gunny.

[TerryO]

Our last trip up Newnes only a couple of weeks ago an experienced modified TDI 200 90 owner turned up and I must admit it struggled to keep up quite often with nearly every other LR there.

I also own a twin locked 4" lifted 33" tyred D1 with lots of other goodies fitted. The old D1 is excellent off road and gives a real driving experience, one you have to work for if you want to get the most out of it.

The same cannot be said for the D3 which apart from ground clearance and overall max tyre size restrictions goes places with ease that a lightly modded and some heavilly modded 4x4 shouldn't be able to do.

I discribed it as almost cheating with the D3 when we went to Newnes with the others ...and when I get my 32" muds I'll be cheating even more against the others. ...:twisted:

But what the heck no matter how good the D1 is the long, often -5 drive in winter, to get anywhere decent off road means the D1 hardly gets used now where as I can't wait to jump in the D3 and drive any distance even with STT's on it to go off road.

As I said horses for courses and don't worry no pink lines round this section. ...;) You Defender rabble are more than welcome to come visit us flash types anytime you like. ...:D

cheers,
Terry

[isuzurover]

No need to pull your car apart! Happy to have you tag along on the next recce, normally have a Puma along as well. No mud tyres though, we only do the recce's and courses on road or AT's.

Cheers,

Gordon

Sounds a bit tame, I don't own ATs, and it takes 5s and one wire to disconnect the locker. I was thinking we go to the powerlines and each pick a track that both of us have to (try and) drive.

Tyres and tyre pressure are open. I will be running very worn and hard 285/75-16s.

(don't forget to remove the rods - which you always claims only takes a few minutes).

[gghaggis]

I moved from the Defender to the D4 and glad I did but I don't think I'll wear that one.

TR systems are all well and good but I'd trust my 19" Wranglers on the gravel drive of a Margaret River winery and that's about it. I could hop into a Defender and drive it straight up the nasty bits of the Gunny.

The 19" factory Tyres are a problem, but there's a few solutions, and it's not one the D3 suffers from. I took 1 RRS, 2 D3's and a D4 up the Canning Stock Route in 8 1/2 days. We stopped at all the normal points of interest, passed dozens of Patrols, Deefers and Toyo's crawling along complaining about the track. We sat on 70+ kph for most of it, in comfort, no dramas or breakdowns (the oldest D3 did a bush, but at the beginning of the track, so undoubtedly damage done previously that wasn't picked up before leaving), and everyone remarked on how relaxed it felt, in complete contrast to how others described it. Oher than tyres and my $120 hs rods, everyone was stock. The Gunny was a breeze.

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

Sounds a bit tame, I don't own ATs, and it takes 5s and one wire to disconnect the locker. I was thinking we go to the powerlines and each pick a track that both of us have to (try and) drive.

Tyres and tyre pressure are open. I will be running very worn and hard 285/75-16s.

(don't forget to remove the rods - which you always claims only takes a few minutes).


You have mentioned this twice now and it sounds like you really don't like the idea of pitting your Defender against Gordon's RRS when with his rods installed it has roughly the same ground clearance as you, even though he would be on A/T's?

He could always make it fair considering you have 33's ...you still got the 32" Maxxis Big Horns sitting in the shed Gordon? ...:)

cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

Sounds a bit tame, I don't own ATs, and it takes 5s and one wire to disconnect the locker. I was thinking we go to the powerlines and each pick a track that both of us have to (try and) drive.

Tyres and tyre pressure are open. I will be running very worn and hard 285/75-16s.

(don't forget to remove the rods - which you always claims only takes a few minutes).

I unfortunately don't have much time to just go out and play, so I figured combining a recce that I have to do anyway, with a bit of playtime would be doable. And it's only as tame as you want it to be. Fine, use muddies. I don't have to remove the rods - they're adjustable, so just leave them at std. Not that it makes any difference at slow speed, as the car raises anyway, if you know how to activate it. Morning session is at the beach, afternoon at the Powerlines. Lunch on me, after-play drinkies on the loser(s). Note that I won't drive any panel-bending tracks for a while though - just got all the panels straightened from last year, and I have a photoshoot in May.

Cheers,
Gordon

Cheers,

Gordon

[rick130]

Come on Rick you may be tall but your built like a stick person (according to your avatar) so yes you should fit in a Fender, once you have fitted extended sets rails that is. ...:p

Re Defenders being a commercial vehicle so they don't need airbags or frontal crash testing to pass minimum standards to be giving ADR passenger vehicle compliance, that is a loop hole that has allowed new Fenders to be sold as passenger vehicles to the Australian public and few reasonable minded people would say its either safe or a good idea.

I accept that new Fenders are now rated to tow 3.5 ton but they still have a max ball weight of just 250 kg which means its near impossible to tow legally a decent sized off road van given the accepted norm of most Aussie vans being built with a 10% ball weight.

Plus of the Fender owners I have spoken with just about to a man they all say it would be a very slow trip towing anything over 2 ton.

I asked these questions last year in the Fender section when in a moment of madness thought about buying a new 110.

Scott, re wheels, I have 17's on my D3, which is only 1/2 inch less side wall top and bottom than if I had similar sized tyres fitted to my 16" shod D1.

Every vehicle has compromises and strengths, for me I'd rather put up with the ramp over angle and tyre size compromises of a late model Disco than the safety and comfort compromises of a Fender.

But as I said each to their own.

cheers,
Terry

Airbags aren't fitted as the car wasn't designed for them and apparently it would be a major re-design and not cost effective, pure and
simple.
Nothing to do with it only being a commercial vehicle.

110/130's have always had a 3500kg towing capacity or 4000kg with coupled brakes.

Always, right from introduction, not just late model ones.

IMO if you want to tow 3000kg regularly a Deefer or D3 is the wrong vehicle anyway, you need a small truck.

BTW, uninformed tows 2 tonnes everyday and my 'normal' load is around 800kg in the back according to the last weighbridge reading.

[rick130]

[snip]

Personally, I just click the "New Posts" button. I rarely notice which section a thread is in, and the isuzu section is probably the only one I actually scroll through the threads in (rarely).

Ditto. ;)

[rick130]

Cardigan you gotta be joking! ...like all proud and self rightous Land Rover owners I wear a fluro Mankini when washing the car. ...dont you? ...:eek:

cheers,
Terry

Wash the car ? :eek:

Waste water washing a car ? :confused:

I drive through creeks and rivers for that. :D

[AndrewGJones]

terry and distinguished disco-stu fans;

defenders have three pedals, not because autos are no good, it's just that we have the extra 'foot' to operate it. ;)

i'll see your combine harvester 'independent from reality' suspension out on the spinifex flats for some cross county 60kmh flower picking.

He who doesn't set his car alight wins. [FishSlap]

[isuzurover]

I unfortunately don't have much time to just go out and play, so I figured combining a recce that I have to do anyway, with a bit of playtime would be doable. And it's only as tame as you want it to be. Fine, use muddies. I don't have to remove the rods - they're adjustable, so just leave them at std. Not that it makes any difference at slow speed, as the car raises anyway, if you know how to activate it. Morning session is at the beach, afternoon at the Powerlines. Lunch on me, after-play drinkies on the loser(s). Note that I won't drive any panel-bending tracks for a while though - just got all the panels straightened from last year, and I have a photoshoot in May.

Cheers,
Gordon

Cheers,

Gordon

Sounds fun. We can wait till after your photo shoot. I will be travelling a fair bit for the next few months.

[TerryO]

terry and distinguished disco-stu fans;

defenders have three pedals, not because autos are no good, it's just that we have the extra 'foot' to operate it. ;)

i'll see your combine harvester 'independent from reality' suspension out on the spinifex flats for some cross county 60kmh flower picking.

He who doesn't set his car alight wins. [FishSlap]


No problems ...one important question though before we set off ...how many good Cafe's are there out there where the spinifex grows as one needs to get a good Caffe Latte and French toast first thing in the morning before going off roading in ones Discovery. ...:)

By the way combine harvesters are for Yanks, here we call them Headers just like the Aussie bloke who invented it originally called it.

cheers,
Terry

[OffTrack]

Airbags aren't fitted as the car wasn't designed for them and apparently it would be a major re-design and not cost effective, pure and simple.

Which goes a long way towards explaining why the current Defender is being pensioned off in 2015, to be replaced by a T5 platform based utility vehicle.

I bet a more than a few Defender owners are choking on the idea that the Defender replacement will be built on the same platform as a D3/D4/RRS.

[gghaggis]

Which goes a long way towards explaining why the current Defender is being pensioned off in 2015, to be replaced by a T5 platform based utility vehicle.

I bet a more than a few Defender owners are choking on the idea that the Defender replacement will be built on the same platform as a D3/D4/RRS.

Probably, but it's the strongest platform that Land Rover have ever built, so one would think they'd be chuffed!

Cheers,

Gordon

[AndrewGJones]

here we call them Headers just like the Aussie bloke who invented it originally called it.


which was closely followed by his mate rolling his eyes uncomfortably and saying "yeah Barry, um, just about naming this thing a 'Header'...do you wreckon Shazza will be Ok with that? I mean, you know, nevermind, hows the head on your beer? top up? Sigh..."

[TerryO]

Is that confirmed Offtrack that the new Defender will be built on a D3/4 platform?

I had hoped that they would build a new chassis and a body that doesn't need to be removed every time something needs changing like a Turbo for example.

cheers,
Terry

[gghaggis]

Sounds fun. We can wait till after your photo shoot. I will be travelling a fair bit for the next few months.

Will have to be September then, unless you can squeeze in a day some weekend in April? Or come with us to Yeagerup over Easter? Mainly sand there, but I'm happy to give you a 20m run-up advantage :D

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

Probably, but it's the strongest platform that Land Rover have ever built, so one would think they'd be chuffed!

Cheers,

Gordon

I guess when that happens we will need to combine the new Defender and Disco areas together. ...:angel:

Now I know why all the Defender owners are hanging round here. They just want to find out how good D3/4's are so they will know what the new Defender will be like. ...:p

cheers,
Terry

[AndrewGJones]

"2015 the end of the Defender -predicted by the Mayan calender"

that will leave the factory tooling for all the real 4wd's up for grabs, hopefully someone with half a clue buys it. I had high hopes for the Indians - very good engineers I had thought -oh well. It has survived everyone else, it will survive this.

[OffTrack]

Is that confirmed Offtrack that the new Defender will be built on a D3/4 platform?

I had hoped that they would build a new chassis and a body that doesn't need to be removed every time something needs changing like a Turbo for example.


I haven't seen anything in the way of confirmation from LR in the press, but apparently the lead time and investment to develop a new platform is "very substantial" as it requires a new production lines etc so speculation is that a modified version of the T5 will be used.

I read recently that Gerry McGovern ( in late december 2012) said that the platform has been finalised for the Defender Replacement so no doubt we'll hear details of exactly what has been decided in the not too distant future. Rumour suggests there is the possibility that a prototype might be shown for the 65th anniversary in April?


cheers
Paul

[ozscott]

Geez I wish I was in WA–would invite myself along in a heartbeat. If you ever come to Qld Gordon let's get together for a similar run! I like the idea of you putting on the beers.

Cheers

[gghaggis]

Geez I wish I was in WA–would invite myself along in a heartbeat. If you ever come to Qld Gordon let's get together for a similar run! I like the idea of you putting on the beers.

Cheers

So not only do I have to face the "unbeatable sand demon", the D2a of Ozscott, but I have to risk drinking Qld beer?? What's in it for me? :angel:

Seriously mate, if you're so confident, drag your bus over to Big Red in August - we'll have a couple of trailers there you can try out with.

That is, if you haven't bought your D3 by then ;)

Cheers,

Gordon

[manic]

haha this is funny reading. I didn't realise D3/D4 owners were so SMUG. :wasntme:

Surely if a the new defender is more like a D3/D4 it would a major fail! They were conceived to do completely different things. One is built for agricultural work, a shell that is adaptable to suit many needs and can take a real beating. The other is to ferry family's around in comfort to various out of the way camping spots.

To the OP: Unless you can think of a good enough reason why a defender would cater for your needs better than the D3, you should just stick with the D3.

And as for Defender/D4/RRS off road ability. Fact is given a new model of each you would take the Defender places you wouldn't want to take the others.

[rick130]

Which goes a long way towards explaining why the current Defender is being pensioned off in 2015, to be replaced by a T5 platform based utility vehicle.

I bet a more than a few Defender owners are choking on the idea that the Defender replacement will be built on the same platform as a D3/D4/RRS.

Nothing confirmed as yet, it's just www conjecture by a few as no one really knows.

And FWIW, why would it bother us ?

Where did the coiler suspension originally come from ?

That's right, it was a car called a Range Rover.
I think they're a little more upmarket than a D3, aren't they :D
So yes, we'd have a right to be upset, we'd be lowering our sights if we just used a T5 platform :angel:

[connock]

WOW this thread has blown me away a bit, who would have thourght that there was so much rivalry within the green oval.

No manufacrurer has ever built a vehicle that is perfect for every one ( what a boring world that would be ) They all have there good points and bad points, my good points could be your bad etc.
You never here a person saying my road trail bike is better than your road bike

I owned a 130 for 9yrs and drove it every day, loved it and defended it when in discusion with pootrol and rollux drivers with a pasion. Fantastic off road not bad on road, cant really compair it with the D3 I have now as they are completely diferent cars.

I think its a good thing that the Defender is going to be built on the T5 platform, better than just dropping the model all together :( and thats probably the alternative.
There was a uproar when the defender was produced now every one (well most) love it. It has to come up to spec, I think LR will do it right.

[strangy]

Simple fact here in 2 points.

1 a D3/4RRS will eventually start to have oil leaks and dust leaks etc ( to be fair so will all makes) so in few years time will definitely not be as new.

2 A defender has oil leaks and dust leaks from the factory.
Therefore if placed on a sale lot the D3/4RRS will obviously present as used and needing work,

Therefore a used Defender will still be "as new" and obviously the better choice.

Not to mention the spilt low fat Soy Latte stains on the non defender vehicles may be difficult to differentiate from soiling experienced by the driver having to negotiate minor road works on the freeway.:-0

[rick130]

No problems ...one important question though before we set off ...how many good Cafe's are there out there where the spinifex grows as one needs to get a good Caffe Latte and French toast first thing in the morning before going off roading in ones Discovery. ...:)

By the way combine harvesters are for Yanks, here we call them Headers just like the Aussie bloke who invented it originally called it.

cheers,
Terry

Damn.

I love a good Macchiatto or latté too

My favourite café roast their own beans.

I teach yoga wearing skimpy little fitted shorts.

Does this men I have to trade down to a D3/D4 ? :(

[rick130]

Simple fact here in 2 points.

1 a D3/4RRS will eventually start to have oil leaks and dust leaks etc ( to be fair so will all makes) so in few years time will definitely not be as new.

2 A defender has oil leaks and dust leaks from the factory.
Therefore if placed on a sale lot the D3/4RRS will obviously present as used and needing work,

Therefore a used Defender will still be "as new" and obviously the better choice.

Not to mention the spilt low fat Soy Latte stains on the non defender vehicles may be difficult to differentiate from soiling experienced by the driver having to negotiate minor road works on the freeway.:-0

If I was drinking one it would have been sprayed all over the screen :D

BTW, you forgot how a Deefer doens't come with a s straight panel anywhere, or as SWMBO says, it comes from the factory with cellulite ;) (as you'd expect a Patrol driver to say)

[ozscott]

So not only do I have to face the "unbeatable sand demon", the D2a of Ozscott, but I have to risk drinking Qld beer?? What's in it for me? :angel:

Seriously mate, if you're so confident, drag your bus over to Big Red in August - we'll have a couple of trailers there you can try out with.

That is, if you haven't bought your D3 by then ;)

Cheers,

Gordon

Pitty August is the busiest time for me at work. Sounds like fun though. If we had the challenge is Qld and I couldn't get you RR stuck on the beach I would stretch to Tassie beers... And I'm a tight are so that's saying something. Seriously though I am looking forward to the trip report.

Cheers

[herrBlick]

Good Lord .....what a can of worms.....

[gghaggis]

If we had the challenge is Qld and I couldn't get you RR stuck on the beach I would stretch to Tassie beers...
Cheers

Tassie beer?? Why didn't you say so!! Now if you could just pay to get my RRS over there I promise I'll try to get it stuck ....................

Seriously, I said I had a few opinions regarding D4 (or D3) versus the Puma offroad and suddenly I'm the target for a deranged (pun intended) Deefer 110 owner (sorry Ben!) and a Deeferless D2 driver??!! That seems to be a lot of presumption on your parts .....

If we try to be grown up about it for a moment, they're very different vehicles, meant for very different markets. The Defender is the most rugged and utilitarian vehicle LR make. The D4 is the best all-round performer LR make. They overlap is in that they are both good off-roaders. If you're _only_ talking about offroad ability, ie not bush-ability, not cost, not modification ease, on-road manners, load capacity, towing etc, there still are both strong and weak points on either side.

First and foremost, a Puma comes off the showroom floor with decent offroad tyres. Nothing else. In some markets you can order your D4 with better than the crap highway tread, but few do, or even know that they can. So put your average showroom D4 against a showroom Puma in a muddy hill-climb, and it's no surprise which one will make it look easier. A Puma has better approach, departure and ramp-over angles, although a D4 in emergency height is pretty close in terms of the latter. A Puma has greater wheel articulation in the front wheels, not much in it in the rear with the D4 in Rock-Crawl. A Puma also has higher side sills, nice and out-of the way. Combine all that and it's pretty easy to see that without too much difficulty, one could find tracks that would favour a Puma over a D4.

On the D4 side though, lets assume a knowledgeable driver has had decent off-road rubber fitted. The Terrain Response system will provide much greater traction than the Puma's ETC and anti-stall, especially if turning or on lock. TR will provide much better torque delivery too, allowing a D4 to run away from a Puma on sand climbs. A D4 has greater under-diff clearance, so doesn't get hung up on high centre ridges as easily. A D4 has a much better turning circle, so can be maneuvered through obstacles more easily in situations where it's greater wheelbase doesn't get in the way. Again, it's pretty easy to see that without too much difficulty, one could find tracks that would favour a D4 over a Puma.

In summary, the trick is to drive the terrain such that you don't ground the car. And as long as neither car is grounded by the terrain, the TR systems will see the D4 go further, assuming equivalent tyres and a driver that knows how to use the system.

That's the reason why the LR engineers were so keen to put the TR system into a Defender, but the mass of accompanying sensors and electrics meant they had to wait until a new base platform was available. Hence why the T5 is the favoured base for the new Defender - it's already developed to take TR. The DC100 has all the off-road advantages of both the Puma AND the D4, which should make it the most able off-roader ever made by LR.

TR will allow the complete novice to traverse quite challenging terrain, provided they read up on it first. I think a lot of seasoned off-roaders resent that but really, the more people take their new LR's offroad, the more LR will continue to support it.

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

I knew from the beginning it was going to go to 10 pages! Love it! Once again debate that is civil and a bit of fun. Gordon's post is a good one to finish on I reckon:D

Cheers

[Tombie]

This is gold.... Love it...

[manic]

"Hmm a Rut, no problem I'll rotate my nob to Rut mode - Engage":spudnikbeanie:

:wasntme:

[connock]

This is gold.... Love it...


x2 :p:p

[TerryO]

"Hmm a Rut, no problem I'll rotate my nob to Rut mode - Engage":spudnikbeanie:

:wasntme:


I think your getting you nob confused with your knob ....still rotate away if you must. ...:o

Must be one of those strange Defender things ...:whistling:


cheers,
Terry

[manic]

I think your getting you nob confused with your knob ....still rotate away if you must. ...:o

It must be one of those strange Defender things ...:whistling:


cheers,
Terry

Alas not a defender thing, but check out my Refrain Response!

[TerryO]

Alas not a defender thing, but check out my Refrain Response!


Anyway my friend chances are in a couple of years time new Defenders will come with their own knobs and possibly even air suspension and what will you mob say if they release an ...auto Defender as an option! :eek2:

That being the case you lot of flat earther's will have to decide if you want to move on or stay lost in the past like most Series owners who think all Defenders owners are pansies and LR never made a real 4x4 once they went away from leaf springs and strong arm steering. ...;)

cheers,
Terry

[juddy]

I thought the other way , and was going to get a D4, to run along side the 130.

But we are going to wait for the new Defender, I think it will be a nice mix of Discovery and Defender, and thats something the current one lacks.

[AndrewGJones]

yes Terry, it will be a hard choice, but I've come full circle now and I'm quite looking forward to getting a T5 defender. Mind you, I'll be getting the factory fitted cappacino machine mounted in the dash. That way, while bogged up to the door sills, I'll be entertained while waiting for a strong-armed series driver to pull me out.

:D

[TerryO]

My god I just checked out your picture and your Jesus Christ! ...Is Andrew the name your going under for the second coming? ...:eek:

When can we expect to see your first miracle Lord? ...:TakeABow::TakeABow::TakeABow::TakeABow:

cheers,
Terry ;)

[rick130]

Anyway my friend chances are in a couple of years time new Defenders will come with their own knobs and possibly even air suspension and what will you mob say if they release an ...auto Defender as an option! :eek2:

That being the case you lot of flat earther's will have to decide if you want to move on or stay lost in the past like most Series owners who think all Defenders owners are pansies and LR never made a real 4x4 once they went away from leaf springs and strong arm steering. ...;)

cheers,
Terry

There's more than a few 110/120/130'ss running around with either bags in the rear or bags all round :p

Hmm, maybe it's time for a new refrain.

"Defenders are built, D3/4's are bought" :lol2:

[AndrewGJones]

My god I just checked out your picture and your Jesus Christ!

That actually Jeff Bridges from the movie 'The Big Lebrowski', I've got the goatee and seasonally adjustable hairdo though. I like the crazy eyed smile he is wearing, suits my mood these days.

The Dude abides. :cool:

[jonesy63]

There's more than a few 110/120/130'ss running around with either bags in the rear or bags all round :p

Yup... that's about right - about all you can pull in a 'fender! :wasntme:

[AndrewGJones]

My god I just checked out your picture and your Jesus Christ! ...Is Andrew the name your going under for the second coming? ...:eek:

When can we expect to see your first miracle Lord? ...:TakeABow::TakeABow::TakeABow::TakeABow:

cheers,
Terry ;)


That actually Jeff Bridges from the movie 'The Big Lebrowski',

that's better, it did look like a protrait didn't it? :p

[rick130]

Yup... that's about right - about all you can pull in a 'fender! :wasntme:

Actually, girls love Defenders and the blokes that drive them :D

We aren't trying to compensate for anything, we're the real deal :cool:

[scarry]

Actually, girls love Defenders and the blokes that drive them :D


i would have to unfortunately agree,the youngest son of mine seems to find them easily,i still can't work out if it's him or the deefer:confused:

you should see his facebook site it is full of pics of deefers and girls:eek:

I just wish he would find the ones with no 'baggage';)

[gng1]

Brett, I think this is what you're after:

23Jun2012 0016 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWC6iI_c-ek)

23Jun2012 0017 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-660Y2FXelk)

There are examples everywhere D3/D4/RRS bettering the Defender AND visa versa ... tyres and driver ability is the biggest influencing factor. They are all Land Rovers and they are all good in my book.

Looks like the defender didn't for some reason engage the centre diff lock... So it's not a case of the vehicle not being able to make it.

[gghaggis]

Looks like the defender didn't for some reason engage the centre diff lock... So it's not a case of the vehicle not being able to make it.

What makes you say that? All wheels turn at some point or another. The ones you can't see are definitely turning.

Cheers,

Gordon

[gng1]

What makes you say that? All wheels turn at some point or another. The ones you can't see are definitely turning.

Cheers,

Gordon

Because the rear wheels are clearly stationary when the front wheel is having a good old spin.

[manic]

Defender did have center diff on lock, but it didn't have traction control. Front left spinning and back right - cross axel! Pre traction control defenders without f/r diff locks will not proceed in these situations.

[herrBlick]

Looks like LRO international next mont will sort it out for us56629

[manic]

Looks like LRO international next mont will sort it out for us56629
koooooooool

[gng1]

Defender did have center diff on lock, but it didn't have traction control. Front left spinning and back right - cross axel! Pre traction control defenders without f/r diff locks will not proceed in these situations.

Why didn't it have TC? I thought all 110 5/7 seater pumas had TC as standard?

[ozscott]

Because the rear wheels are clearly stationary when the front wheel is having a good old spin.

I did wonder about that. Did look that way.

Cheers

[gghaggis]

Why didn't it have TC? I thought all 110 5/7 seater pumas had TC as standard?

They do, and it did. In some situations though, compared with a Terrain Response vehicle, it doesn't react fast enough or hard enough, as it has to be a compromise between on-road driveability and off-road traction.

Cheers,

Gordon

[manic]

Why didn't it have TC? I thought all 110 5/7 seater pumas had TC as standard?

True, does look like a puma... front wheel appears to be stuttering so yeah looks like even TC could'nt help it... odd, maybe rear diff bottomed out?

[gghaggis]

The rear diff _was_ dragging - you can see the marks in the middle of the track.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Bournie]

Hi All, some of you might have noticed that my '07 Puma is up for sale in the appropriate section. Reason being I'm looking at a D3.

Living and working in Broken Hill with it's sheite roads make the Deefer an average daily driver. And the A/C or windows down are pretty average in the 40+ even 45+ heat we've had this year.

The Deefer hasn't done much offroad stuff so I think the D3 will suit my lifestyle, road trips and general touring, fair amount of gear - once barrier installed.

TheOp - what colour is your D3?

[herrBlick]

56816
It's silver....
I have decided to keep the car after reading this debate (loosely used term)
I just spent quite Abit of money on it.
Waiting for the new defender.....

[Nomad9]

HI Herrblick,
I've just been throught your same question, I have a RRS and I did have a D1 300tdi, Whilst at the local dealer a few weeks ago now I saw a new Defer my wife suggested taking it for a drive, which I did. Well it was like going from a tractor to a limo, everything I asked if it had the answer was repeatedly no. And yet the Defer just had something, something that sucked you in, a character, a personality all of its own.
I couldn't part with my RRS so I sold my D1 which just hasn't got what I was looking for and I bought a 2001 Defer, it has a full LR service history a few little extras, bull bar winch and a dual battery system and thats about it, plus it has got the TD5 motor which I want to try out.
I'm now in the process of getting it ready for a trip up "The Gunny", Kununurra and beyond later on in the year. I don't doubt that the RRS could make it in comfort, however when I'm relying on two bits of plastic I bought for $15 off Fleabay to protect my radiator I think I'm in the wrong place. On the Defer the doors don't shut properly, there is a biro tip stopping the rear sliding window from rattling, the axillary battery is rooted, I have an incessant diesel leak from the pressure regulator on the head which isn't going to beat me and I've got to buy some new tyres, after all that I love it, great decision on my behalf and who knows if I like it enough when the new Defer arrives if it isn't to radical a change I might buy a new one.
Buying a second hand defer will give you that insight into whether you will like one or not.

[TerryO]

I quite like the idea of having a Defender as a second Landy for going bush. But having it as a every day driver really doesn't appeal for a number of reasons that have already been addresses in this thread.

The real problem is already having three Disco's, not sure I want to pay rego and insurance for four of them and two other vehicles.

cheers,
Terry

[Nomad9]

Hi Terry,
And my wife thinks I've got a problem............much as I liked the Disco 1 300 tdi all I ever used it for was the odd weekend jaunt into te bush, I've got a company vehicle that fills a lot of the gap. My RRS I've used recently for a few longer trips towing the TVan, however these have been on bitumen and to caravan parks and the like, nothing that will really shake the crap out of things at all.
I took my D3 to Alice via the GCR a couple of years ago, it was brilliant, I had two issues one was the crap Cooper tyres I bought a month before I left and a small peice of gravel got into the brake calliper and broke the brake pad sensor, this resulted in an annoying beep until I had finally had enough when I got to Melbourne and cut the wire with a pair of pliers. Because one of the Coopers shredded and the other one kept on going down on me ( :) ) I had to miss going to a few sightseeing spots on gravel off shoots.
I think the Defer will be a good compromise, easy to fix, parts are easier to come by, economical and awesome off road, what more could you ask for.......... maybe the comfort of the Sport.

[manic]

I quite like the idea of having a Defender as a second Landy for going bush. But having it as a every day driver really doesn't appeal for a number of reasons that have already been addresses in this thread.

The real problem is already having three Disco's, not sure I want to pay rego and insurance for four of them and two other vehicles.

cheers,
Terry

too many disco's.. diversify.

[mojo]

I quite like the idea of having a Defender as a second Landy for going bush.

This is the situation we'll be in when our new Disco arrives in April. We've had a TD5 Defender for 5 or 6 years now, and it's main use is for 4WD'ing and camping trips. Our VW Tiguan has been the daily driver, but it's going to be too small for our growing family soon, so the Disco is on it's way.

The missus is trying to convince me we don't need 2 4WD's, but it ain't gonna happen! :D

[TerryO]

too many disco's.. diversify.

In reality Manic, it's a nice thing to have three very different Disco's that are superior to rattly old smokey Defenders in nearly every way. ...;)

The thing is Disco's are such a nice vehicle that it seems a waste to wreck them, whereas as many of you Defender owners have repeatedly said Defenders even when new don't have a straight panel on them so whats a few more dents and scratches. ...:p

cheers,
Terry ;)

[DiscoWeb]

For what it is worth in this debate/discussion/arguement,

On Saturday I was out around the Lithgow areain NSW with a group D3, D4's and a Defender on a driver training day.

On one of the practice hill climbs, 3 different Discoveries (my D3 and 2 D4"s) successfully drove one particular climb that has a few step ups. One was being driven by a bloke who was very new to 4wding in his D4.

The Defender, despite having 4 -5 runs at it simply could not get the traction to climb the last step.

Now admittedly this was in a large part due to the driver being both new to Defender and reasonably new to being off road, however afterwards he did note that he had driven that same hill easily in his D4 a few years early.

My point is that in my experience, for the vast majority of 4wding most people will do the D3 and or D4 will get you as far and in some cases further than a Defender straight out of the box and do it slightly easier.

No doubt in my mind, once kitted out the Defender will get you further and deeper than a D3 but that must represent less than 1% of the 4wd most people do.

Regards,

George

[manic]

In reality Manic, it's a nice thing to have three very different Disco's that are superior to rattly old smokey Defenders in nearly every way. ...;)

The thing is Disco's are such a nice vehicle that it seems a waste to wreck them, whereas as many of you Defender owners have repeatedly said Defenders even when new don't have a straight panel on them so whats a few more dents and scratches. ...:p

cheers,
Terry ;)

That's almost a little sad TerryO, sounds like you would like a defender to play with but you're too attached to your disco's to make any room. I admire your loyalty, clearly you are a total disco freak. I only hope one day the opportunity presents itself so your naughty defender dreams can come true, until then constantly remind us all why defender ownership would be completely irrational!

[TerryO]

That's almost a little sad TerryO, sounds like you would like a defender to play with but you're too attached to your disco's to make any room. I admire your loyalty, clearly you are a total disco freak. I only hope one day the opportunity presents itself so your naughty defender dreams can come true, until then constantly remind us all why defender ownership would be completely irrational!


Hi Manic,

much of what I say re Defenders is very tongue in cheek just to get a rise out of you blokes.

Re the safety points I and others have raised I must admit for me that is a bit of a concern, having said that my D1 is no better than a Defender but as I drive it very occassionally to go off road I consider that as an acceptable risk.

Anyway don't take it personally as its not meant in that light.

Now to get back to it as it would be wrong for me to be nice for to long ...when are you Defender owners going to accept that the earth is round and not flat and D3/4's are far superior both on and off road to those old rusty tin fridges that you blokes drive? ...:angel:


cheers,
Terry

[Naks]

...As I said before I do love my Disco but the idea of a new Defender is tantalising.


You'd be giving up a much more capable and comfortable vehicle if you do.

I thought I knew D3s were good offroad, but, on Saturday, I watched a D3 with MTs climb up an obstacle that a 110 Puma with MTs could not. The only other vehicle in our convoy that did was a 110 with 4" lift and F+R lockers.

The D3 did it much easier that the 110 and the driver was not even that experienced.

Obstacle in question:

http://r1---sn-5hn7su7l.c.bigcache.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/original/20957050.jpg

[scarry]

For what it is worth in this debate/discussion/arguement

My point is that in my experience, for the vast majority of 4wding most people will do the D3 and or D4 will get you as far and in some cases further than a Defender straight out of the box and do it slightly easier.

No doubt in my mind, once kitted out the Defender will get you further and deeper than a D3 but that must represent less than 1% of the 4wd most people do.

Regards,

George

Been out with my D4 and the sons Puma many times.The Puma does have KM2's,and a 40mm lift.D4 is stock with A/Ts.

Point them both up a steep rocky rutted hill,and the D4 does it the easiest.Take the wrong line to make things difficult,the Puma will often go no further where the D4 keeps on going.

But the Puma does have much better approach and departure angles,which is very handy at times,although it does have diff pumpkins that can hang it up.

The D4 body is also more vulnerable to damage:(,whereas the body on the Puma sits higher up and also has the straight body panels.

And for the people that don't like Traction Control,the Puma recently had a fault which caused the TC not to operate.It definitely went further in the rough stuff with the TC on.

This may also have been more noticeable,because our driving styles were used to the TC operating.

And as for those deep water crossings,the D4 seems to chicken out,where the Puma trundles through no worries:)

[manic]

That is a worthy obstacle! Would love to see a video of a D3 going up that?

[TerryO]

I'd like to see the clip of the D3 going up it nearly as much as the one with the Defender not getting up it. ...;)

In the 'General Chat' part of this forum there is an interesting thread very similar to this one. One of the posters put up the old video clip of the RRS and D3 going up that very steep rock at Moesgatle. After many previous comments about how good the Defenders are off road there was near stunned silence from the Defender brigade when the D3 clip went up with bugger all reply.

So I put the clip of a Defender not getting up more than a third of the way even after a run up of the same very steep rock and then bunny hopping backwards down it out of control.

Again hardly any comment and this was after pages of comments bout how the Defender is superior off road in the rough stuff to late model Disco's. below is a link to the thread which is titled Disco v Defender for those that are interested. It makes for some interesting reading in sections.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/168882-disco-vs-defender.html

Cheers,
Terry

[Naks]

I'd like to see the clip of the D3 going up it nearly as much as the one with the Defender not getting up it. ...;)

Jah, unfortunately by then it was already 5pm and everyone's cameras had run flat. We'd been on the trail since 10am.

The D3 took about 20-25min to get up. The Puma tried for about the same amount of time before giving up.

Edit: a picture has surfaced on our club's FB page:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/560445_421153971306388_1323224884_n.jpg

[ozscott]

Look I think it can be said that they are very different vehicles. Its hard to beat the ETC of the D3/4 straight out of the box for slow and steady and getting there in the end. However the Deefer is much more able to be tricked up - it is the perfect vehicle for that with endless options and cheap but good bits from all over the world. A set of lockers (f and r) and a lift and big tyres and they just keep going. Remember too here the Deefer is about half the price of a D3/4 so plenty of coin to build an amazing off road machine that wont be embarrassed by any vehicle.

But in a stock deefer v stock D3/4 good traction control will beat outdated traction control, once traction is lost...now in a Deefer traction will usually be lost later than in a D3/4 due to the articulation that the Deefer has - but again when its lost on the Deefer, and already lost on the D3/4 it stands to reason that the Deefer will not do as well on the crawl up axle twisters because its let down in comparison by the ETC. Some of that can be militated by higher speed in the deefer without damage, but that is not always possible as you know.

Interestingly it seems to me from reading on here and from what I have seen that the traction control in the D2 is better than in the Deefer. I just dont understand why the Deefer's is dumbed down, as it is the same system as the D2, but perhaps it has to do with driver perception and the fact that deefer drivers generally are resistant to electronics kicking in off road.

Cheers

PS. I notice that no-one is comparing Deefer and D3/4 in very soft sand, especially towing, with their tires as far down as they reasonably can go.

[Naks]

PS. I notice that no-one is comparing Deefer and D3/4 in very soft sand, especially towing, with their tires as far down as they reasonably can go.


Even in sand the D4 runs rings around the Defender.

We had a training session from LR Experience a few years ago and they brought a brand new D4 with HT tyres from the showroom. Even without deflating, it still beat everything else in the dunes - Td5, Puma, 90, 110, 130, D2, you name it!

At one point, to show off, the chap even did a dune in reverse!

[ozscott]

Interesting man! I know they go well on dunes compared to Deefers because of the sheer grunt. But in deep soft sand on the flat like our beaches and beach entrances there are plenty of write ups in magazines and on this very aulro site about problems towing and without load - its only the wheels and weight mind you. No diffs to drag is good. Pretty soon people will swing in and tell me the D3/4 with 19-20 inch tyres in sand and the anit-yaw turned off is the best thing since sliced bread so I wont say anything more!:p



Cheers

PS Im heading to stradbroke island towing the camp trailer again soon - I will see the usual defenders, Disco 1 and 2's, RRC's and even several series landrovers. Never seen a D3/4 there. If I do I will take a pic and post it!!!

[gghaggis]

... and no matter how many times others tell you how good they are in sand, you'll still pop up with that old line. Give it a break - it was a long time ago, when D4's were young and people knew not what they were doing.

Except for that extra-soft, super-special piece of sand that only you can tow through though, none of us can manage that :p

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

... and no matter how many times others tell you how good they are in sand, you'll still pop up with that old line. Give it a break - it was a long time ago, when D4's were young and people knew not what they were doing.

Except for that extra-soft, super-special piece of sand that only you can tow through though, none of us can manage that :p

Cheers,

Gordon

Hahha...you know that piece of sand too.

Cheers

[ozscott]

... and no matter how many times others tell you how good they are in sand, you'll still pop up with that old line. Give it a break - it was a long time ago, when D4's were young and people knew not what they were doing.

Except for that extra-soft, super-special piece of sand that only you can tow through though, none of us can manage that :p

Cheers,

Gordon





Oh dear...as recent as 4 months ago people still dont know what they are doing..http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/162721-disco-4hse-continually-fails-sand-help.html

DSC off tyres way way down...what are they doing wrong cause it couldn't be the car. Must be the driver! Ohh...he is very experienced... As long as it is recognised that as excellent as the d4 is on road and as competent as it is off road it doesnt do everything off road as well a Deefer or for that matter older lighter discos with higher profile tyres and smaller rims we have no disagreement in the end. Happy days!

Cheers

[chuck]

Well I hope it (D4) goes well in sand because I have just booked a week at Carpenters Rocks in SA for Christmas.

Spectacular bit of coast.

Dont know if I will be able to afford Gordons rims by then:)

From memory I should be able to go down to 16 on 19" GG AT's???

I should be OK because my son, daughter in law & grandkids are coming with well sorted D2a with winch & 255 x 85's

[gghaggis]

Oh dear...as recent as 4 months ago people still dont know what they are doing..http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/162721-disco-4hse-continually-fails-sand-help.html

DSC off tyres way way down...what are they doing wrong cause it couldn't be the car. Must be the driver! Ohh...he is very experienced... As long as it is recognised that as excellent as the d4 is on road and as competent as it is off road it doesnt do everything off road as well a Deefer or for that matter older lighter discos with higher profile tyres and smaller rims we have no disagreement in the end. Happy days!

Cheers

Yes, they are still learning - the D3/D4 is very different to almost every other 4WD on the road (until very recently), and so there is a constant stream of people getting into difficulty. Hence our input here on the forum. And whilst I understand you're being flippant, a little tedious (you've been banging this drum since 2006, when you kept claiming you were "looking" at buying a D3) and generally "stirring the pot", that attitude does little to help or bolster the confidence of newbies taking their brand new D4 out for the first time.

A stock D4 will run rings around a stock D2 - V8, manual or otherwise. Simple. Get over it. Now where's the popcorn .............

Cheers,

Gordon

[gghaggis]

Well I hope it (D4) goes well in sand because I have just booked a week at Carpenters Rocks in SA for Christmas.

Spectacular bit of coast.

Dont know if I will be able to afford Gordons rims by then:)

From memory I should be able to go down to 16 on 19" GG AT's???

I should be OK because my son, daughter in law & grandkids are coming with well sorted D2a with winch & 255 x 85's

16 psi is okay on the 19" rims (14 if required) - just be aware of wheel placement and rocks on the track.

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

Its not just reports on this forum...in any event I was looking...but not anymore and instead kept my d2 a decision I feel pleased with every day...

I am hoping the next Defender is low weight and with sensible rims and any upgrade will likely be to that (or to a sedan and keep the Disco 2 animal for off road and towing duties. Its not about I knocking confidence of new owners...its about addressing claims on here that are a stretch for the sake of current owners and people thinking of buying.

You didnt way in on that fellows thread...so what was he doing wrong. Does he have to do a driver training course perhaps.

Cheers

[TerryO]

Scott you do tend to spend quite a lot of time in here having cheap shots at D3/4's when you get a chance.
Sure a D2 is a good thing, I should know I own one as well, but why always the negative?

You have decided not to buy one and keep your D2 and thats fine, so why don't we leave it at that.

cheers,
Terry :)

[discotwinturbo]

Well I hope it (D4) goes well in sand because I have just booked a week at Carpenters Rocks in SA for Christmas.

Spectacular bit of coast.

Dont know if I will be able to afford Gordons rims by then:)

From memory I should be able to go down to 16 on 19" GG AT's???

I should be OK because my son, daughter in law & grandkids are coming with well sorted D2a with winch & 255 x 85's

I have been down to 10psi on factory 19's on one of the largest dunes in wa. Dsc off, low range, sand mode, and don't plant your foot....light throttle is more than enough and dsc will not kick in, just don't be tempted to plant it.
Careful over rocks, and tree roots with those pressures though...the rims will almost touch the obstruction.
The D4 is now the best sand terrain vehicle I have driven....once you get it sussed.

Brett...

[ozscott]

Terry quite a few of my posts above hav considerable positives. The d4 is remarkable. But the question from the OP asked for a comparison. I dont accept the comments from the likes of Gordon that it is in effect the best LR for ever situation. It gets a bit testy when Gordo and I weigh in so given that he is the Go To guy on the d4 board and in the interests of keeping every d4 owners confidence levels up I will not post on here unless its purely constructive. ..ie no negative sides to the d4.

Cheers!

[connock]

Well I hope it (D4) goes well in sand because I have just booked a week at Carpenters Rocks in SA for Christmas.

Spectacular bit of coast.

Dont know if I will be able to afford Gordons rims by then:)

From memory I should be able to go down to 16 on 19" GG AT's???

I should be OK because my son, daughter in law & grandkids are coming with well sorted D2a with winch & 255 x 85's

Hi Chuck
You will not find the driving to hard in and around Carpenter Rock so if you take a run up the coast a bit and try some of the Beach Port to Robe tracks, there a bit more challenging.
Yes it is a beautifull bit of coast , spent a fair bit of time down there dont forget to pack the fishing rods too.;)

connock

[TerryO]

Terry quite a few of my posts above hav considerable positives. The d4 is remarkable. But the question from the OP asked for a comparison. I dont accept the comments from the likes of Gordon that it is in effect the best LR for ever situation. It gets a bit testy when Gordo and I weigh in so given that he is the Go To guy on the d4 board and in the interests of keeping every d4 owners confidence levels up I will not post on here unless its purely constructive. ..ie no negative sides to the d4.

Cheers!


Hi Scott, there is no problem with anyone having their say, be it either positive or negative, but this conversation was well on its way to being narky.

Debates about facts or actual observations is great but pointed cheap shots only ever lead to blues. The other mods jokingly call the D3/4/RRS area the scary place, in part because there were so many arguments and blues that used to happen in here in the past, thankfully that is rear now and I think no one wants to see it return.

I would ask you not to stop commenting in here as you do add value to the conversation, anyway moving on, I thought you were meant to be sharing some Tassie beers with Gordon when he next visits Queensland? ...;)

Besides all Disco owners should stick together, everyone knows its those pesky Neanderthal Defender drivers that are the real enemy of modern civilisation and who can't stand the idea of anyone owning a decent modern 4x4 ...:wasntme: ;)


cheers,
Terry

[ozscott]

Thanks mate. I will settle down...

Cheers

Ps. I would actually be delighted to share a beer with Gordon btw.

[twr7cx]

I've got a Discovery 2 HSE, my brother bought a new 90 last year. We both love the look of his, but agree that despite the 10 year age gap mine is still far more comfortable and luxurious! I can only imagine it being even more drastic difference from a D3.

I could have a Defender as a second car, but wouldn't be my choice on a primary vehicle in an urban environment.

[rick130]

[snip]

everyone knows its those pesky Neanderthal Defender drivers that are the real enemy of modern civilisation and who can't stand the idea of anyone owning decent 4x4 ...:wasntme: ;)


cheers,
Terry

Absolutely correct Terry.

Please stick to your D3/4's and the real 4wder's will continue with our 90/110/130's :angel:

And FWIW I'm such a Luddite I only have an S2 Galaxy 'phone, and there's not an i-pad to be seen anywhere in this humpy :D







You gentlemen do realise that if you keep posting in this thread it'll keep coming up in all the Neanderthals 'Your Posts' lists so we'll keep lobbing a comment or three occasionally just to stop you fella's nodding off in your club lounges on wheels ? :D

[TerryO]

You gentlemen do realise that if you keep posting in this thread it'll keep coming up in all the Neanderthals 'Your Posts' lists so we'll keep lobbing a comment or three occasionally just to stop you fella's nodding off in your club lounges on wheels ? :D


Yep we realise ....:D


cheers,
Terry

[scarry]

Yep we realise ....:D


cheers,
Terry

Thats what forums are for.....:D

Rick,you recon you have the base phone,you want to try the telstra tuff that i have,must be the most basic phone on the market:(

They should call it the defender phone:p:D

[rick130]

Naa, the SII isn't base Paul, it was only superseded by the III as the top of the line Samsung phone eight or nine months ago.

I have to say I love my smart phone, just don't let any of these other D3/4/RRS owners know the Neanderthals enjoy the fruits of modern tech sometimes too ;)
I actually just wanted a shockproof, basic tradies phone, just like a Deefer, but I succumbed :( :D

[Jeff]

People seem amazed the D3/4s are 'better' off road than a Defender, but at twice the price they should be.

There is more to life than who has the most capable. I quite enjoyed the trip TerryO mentioned to Newnes as I made all the difficult bits without TC or lockers, I see it as improving my driving rather than improving my vehicle, or buying a 'better' vehicle.

The same comparison is like in my sidecar racing. I race a 16 year old $20,000 sidecar, but I'm up against newer $100,000 ones and I don't beat them often, but when I do I feel great satisfaction.

Jeff

:rocket:

[sniegy]

Chuck,

Great drive from Carpenters Rocks thru to Millicent.
Never got to go any further as we ran out of time.
Have fun.

Sent from my iPad using Forum Runner

[TerryO]

People seem amazed the D3/4s are 'better' off road than a Defender, but at twice the price they should be.

Jeff

:rocket:


Forget the fact that the D3/4 is better off road than a Defender, we pay twice the amount so we don't get wet feet when it rains and don't go deaf because of the loud rattles and the annoying clunks. ...;)

cheers,
Terry

[Garry]

Well I bought new Defender 90 Just over a year ago in thoery to replace my V8 D3 HSE which I was becoming tired off, a big heavy 4x4, well mine is as added a lot of steel front and back etc etc :mad: and it has only done 1800ks since its last service, I loved driving the 90 so much which now has 13k on the clock

But after 11 1/2 months I am so glad I did not sell d the D3 as after doing a few more Ks in the D3 my last swing home it seems the permagrin has come back behind the wheel of the D3 :D

I think you would miss the Discovery but you would be getting a friend in its place, a good comment from another post

I do have a little story about the two of them though

We all know the noise an old fridge makes when swithching on and off, the pipes rattle a bit

Well for 25Ks this fridge rattled about in the back of the 90 and at one point I stopped to try and arrest the moving pipes as fearing filling the cab full of freon or some other nasty that fills the system. This was going to the repair man

I picked up the fridge up in the D3 and half way home it rattled once and that was it for the whole 25k return trip, got to love driving on air

I love the 90 but its a bouncy little bugger :p

G

[rick130]

[snip]

I love the 90 but its a bouncy little bugger :p

G

More a wheelbase thing than the spring medium.

The longer they are the less pitching there is, it's just a simple fact of the extra time it takes for the back wheels to hit a bump after the fronts have been unsettled with a longer (and then longer again with 127") wheelbase.

[AndrewGJones]

Alright Terry, i see your job is as boring as mine, so lets see if Homo Sapiness Discoveritis can actually out last Neanderthalis Defenderuminous when faced with the real king of 'capability' ; Hummersaurus Rex;

Humvee Climbing Vertical Wall 1 YouTube - YouTube

ignoring the busted pipe at 19 secs (and the guy laughing like Homer), I think it is clear that we should all sell up and buy hummers as it is clearly the best at circus tricks and artificial tests.

[TerryO]

Andrew,

Your welcome to a HumV if that is what floats your boat. ...;)

Me I'll stick with my city slicker D3 for now. ...:p

cheers,
Terry

[ozscott]

I think it was in this thread (im not going back through it!!!) that a video was posted showing a Deefer struggling to get up an axle twister on a modest climb...with Disco's doing it relatively easily. I and others made the comment that the CDL did not appear to be engaged...

Here is a video posted in the General section by a kind contributor, that shows how the TD5 traction control works (with CDL engaged...).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9BEqMnYfus

There were uphill axle twisters in that worse than the video earlier in this thread that the Deefer eats up. Its a better representation of what a Defender can do and its impressive. Not posting this up to start fights, just so that readers can see the true abilities of this vehicle.

Cheers

[gghaggis]

I think it was in this thread (im not going back through it!!!) that a video was posted showing a Deefer struggling to get up an axle twister on a modest climb...with Disco's doing it relatively easily. I and others made the comment that the CDL did not appear to be engaged...

Here is a video posted in the General section by a kind contributor, that shows how the TD5 traction control works (with CDL engaged...).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9BEqMnYfus

There were uphill axle twisters in that worse than the video earlier in this thread that the Deefer eats up. Its a better representation of what a Defender can do and its impressive. Not posting this up to start fights, just so that readers can see the true abilities of this vehicle.

Cheers

That is shot on the tracks here in Perth where I run part of the driver-training day. I drive them 15 ~ 20 times a year' so I'd say I know them pretty well. And those coming to the Sydney seminar will see just how easy the Discos make it look.

The short video of the deefer getting stuck earlier is also on that track - a part this gentleman didn't drive. Very different in the wet. In the first video, it was the Deefer's diff that kept dragging and slowing him down.

Cheers,

Gordon

[rick130]

[snip]
it was the Deefer's diff that kept dragging and slowing him down.

Cheers,

Gordon

That's a wheel placement and hence driver thing.
I remember taking a school mates Dad's brand spanking new Subaru Leone dual range up The Oaks firetrail in the Blue Mountains National Park west of Sydney in the pouring rain after school one day :angel: (think lots of sandstone :D)
Did it far easier than the Jackaroo that was turning back until I went past him then he followed.
At least I did it easier until he woke up to where I was putting my wheels to make up for the lack of ground clearance and ramp over on the little Subbie, then he matched it.

This has all been in good fun, but vids mean nothing.
The only definitive test is with the same driver over the same course in both vehicles.

But that'd spoil all the fun :D

[Redback]

Alright Terry, i see your job is as boring as mine, so lets see if Homo Sapiness Discoveritis can actually out last Neanderthalis Defenderuminous when faced with the real king of 'capability' ; Hummersaurus Rex;

Humvee Climbing Vertical Wall 1 YouTube - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR7fJstg4AQ)

ignoring the busted pipe at 19 secs (and the guy laughing like Homer), I think it is clear that we should all sell up and buy hummers as it is clearly the best at circus tricks and artificial tests.

See if your fabulous Hummer can do this.

4x4 a 90° verticale! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=MubbIv5CKd0)

Baz.;)

[RANDLOVER]

Looks like LRO international next mont will sort it out for us56629

I don't remember seeing the original but it looks like LRO International has decided to revisit this in the latest issue (Spring 2018) I haven't read the whole article yet but (spoiler alert!) it looks like the Disco comes out ahead on points.

[RANDLOVER]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/04/554.jpg

Well I've read the article and the precis is as follows, the Disco gets more points in every category, on road, off road, wading, mud, angles, etc except for ease of working on, this is not to say the Defender can't do what the Disco can, just that the D3 does it more easily. Also the Defenders are nearly twice the price GBP14000 vs GBP6-8000 IIRC.