2013 Defender 90. Long term vehicle?

[Thewilk]

OK, here's my predicament. I've owned a 98, 2.8, GU patrol for the last nine years. Its got 217000 on the clock with 1800 of that pulling my camper around OZ, but the old girl's starting to feel a bit tired(Although its never let me down). Will be looking at major ticket items like clutch( still original), fuel pump and possible head problems in the near future.:($$$$
Most of my traveling is towing a camper and mainly beach work. However, I'm looking to do the Cape this winter(hence the new vehicle)

Been looking for a new rig and dismissed the current crop of tradies utes. Patrol's out due to 3.0ltr problems and can't entertain Toyota prices.

For a long time now, I've been hankering after a Defender. Even the missus is nagging me to get one!
The heart is saying do it but the mind is saying don't after reading some of the woes of the current model(2012/13 model 90 is what I'm looking at).
What I'd like to know is, Is the current model Defender a long term Proposition?, Like 10 years or so, or should I steer clear and get something a little older(still a Defender) with some of the bugs ironed out?
I'm looking for something that can tour and be my daily driver. This vehicle has to last me the next 10 years, like my trusty Patrol has.
I don't want to enter into LR ownership and be let down(or be trayed home) as some seem to have been on this forum.

Thanks for your replies and thoughts in advance and please don't flame me too much!:D

[DeanoH]

Me, I'd keep the Patrol. Better the devil you know and spend whatever to get it back to top condition. No electronics, simple and strong if a bit underpowered.

Whats with the cylinder head ? is it a known weak point in the 2.8 ?

I reckon you've got more chance of trouble free motoring over the next ten years in a simple old style diesel Patrol than you have with any modern offering. Remember the 90 is a lot smaller than the Patrol and will be a bit choppier with its shorter wheel base.

Deano :)

[grover69]

Stick with the car you have and put a recon motor in it you will be much better off and spend less money in the long term

[bullets]

I have the same model Patrol - bought new in 98' 2.8 diesel.
It has @ 450,000k's on clock now and apart from regular servicing the only thing I have replaced is the clutch about 18months - 2yrs ago. I will be looking at servicing the injectors soon.
Reckon' stick with what you have and spend the money on some quality maintenance and after market gear. They are a great truck and economical that will last - if not pushed too hard.

[Tombie]

I'd rip the 2.8 and find a 4.2 to slot in :D

[stuee]

I agree with the above if you cant consider anything else, slot in a 4.2 and give the rest of the vehicle a freshen up. After reading the stories on here, I cant imagine myself buying a new defender.

Out of curiosity though why have you dismissed the current dual cabs? They would be my pick for a new 4x4.

Also my understanding was the current model 3.0L patrol had all the bugs ironed out? If anything its underpowered compared to the rest of the market now. The old boy's had one of the 'problematic' models since new without any problem, but he's fitted a dawes valve, boost and egt gauges, its still a gutless wonder though.

[Greyfox]

Why a 90 and not a 110 Defender,the 90 may not suit your needs , unless you have a short wheel base patrol. Did they still make them in 98?

[Thewilk]

Thanks for the replies.

I've dismissed most tradies utes for a few reasons, Triton- cheap but bendy chassis. D22- cheap but torsion bar front suspension. D40- low clearance and weak clutch. New Ranger out of my price range. D-max low clearance and not as good as Ranger!
I realize that most of this stuff can be addressed with aftermarket mods, but I would be running the risk of voiding the warranty with most mods.

The Defender fits the bill out of the box as stock. Strong chassis, coils all round, easily modded later on. Way more practical than some of the higher end utes with expensive flashy trim and interiors.

As for the old GU. Its got the electronic fuel pump. I've replaced the acc pedal($650)all body mounts,rebuilt front hubs, Third gear is notchy, clutch+flywheel due imminent replacement, paint peeling on roof and bonnet, cracked rocker cover near vac pump, rear diif whine for the last 80000kms, cracks in rear doors and boot floor,needs new tyres+wheel paint, trim falling off inside. Don't get me wrong, It'll be a sad day when it goes. But I feel its time for a change to something with a little more go.

As for the 4.2 option. I had considered this. by the time you've found a good low mileage engine and box and done the transplant(and changed diff ratios etc) you can say goodbye to 15 grand, a third of the way to a new vehicle.

From the replies so far it would seem that a late model Defender might be low on the list!?

[Thewilk]

90 'cos i don't need the space. Just the missus and a dog+camper trailer. And they're cheap!

[jimr1]

What you'r asking is not an easy answer . Land Rover will give you 3 years or 100ks . As you know after that your on your own . No one can tell you how the 2.2 wil go , as no one has had one for 10 years . Test drive a 90 and a 110 . The product has inproved, as are reports of build quality. There are a lot of happy owners , also unhappy ones as well . The way to go is take your time , look at your options , you may decide to spend your money on your Nissan , but in another 10 years it will be 25 years old , think of the resale . good luck , jimr1 .

[Thewilk]

Have considered the resale on my Patrol already. Probably worth about $4k as a trade and $6k private.

It would be good to hear some glowing reports from early puma owners, if there are any.

[Sandgroper]

I've only owned my puma for a month now so I can't say much but, it didn't leak water on my foot when it rained and at 100kms along the freeway it is only doing 2000 rpm in sixth gear. So far I love it!

[spudboy]

Uh - Ok, I'm happy PUMA owner! Had mine since 2007, so well out of warranty now. Took her up to Lake Eyre for this year's big trip. Water water everywhere; KMs of muddy slosh; rough chopped up roads; Didn't miss a beat.

Things replaced under warranty:
- Rear diff (pretty common in the early releases)
- CD Player
- Air pump (?) This was a common fail on early models, and has since been redesigned.

Have to say that mine has been pretty faultless.

I also had a 90 for a few years, so I would say to you be VERY SURE it is big enough for you. They are TINY in the back and you can't take much kit with you. Fabulous off road, but 110 is a lot easier to live with day to day apart from the turning circle.

HTH
David

Edit - just to add that the other thing that annoyed me with the 90 was the lack of range on the std fuel tank. I think it was 60L, which is only good for around 500-550Kms

[wpalmo]

Thewilk,

Sounds like you want a 90 and are making a case to upgrade to one. Go out and buy one but be warned they have a lot of major issues of recurring mechanical problems.

The Patrol has always been a proven performer for reliability and tough drive trains. The issues you have listed with your Patrol are just wear and tear for a vehicle of that age. Those will be trivial compared to a new diff and gearbox inside of 20 000 kms as many Puma owners have had the experience of dealing with.

It will be fixed under warranty but there are owners of Puma's on this forum that have had their vehicles at dealer workshops for outrageous lengths of time while they wait for parts and fault diagnosis. Perhaps Land Rover Australia should be making sure that there is at least 1 spare gearbox and rear diff in their warehouse for every new Puma sold as it will most likely be replaced inside of the warranty period at least once.

If you want a reliable Defender that is a 10 year proposition you have to look at Isuzu Defenders as those things really are million km vehicles. Awesome tractor like drive train that is so much tougher than anything Land Rover make today. Puma's are really a toy in comparison that will break like most the cheap plastic toys made in third world countries these days.

Good luck finding one though because they are tightly held by people in the know. Unfortunately they only came out as a 110 I believe. Hopefully the ADF will sell their Perenties off in the near future as they have the same running gear and are the real deal Defender. I don't think that the ADF would replace their Perenties with the current Defender though so it may be still some time before they are offered to the public. There are a lot of people waiting for these vehicles to come into the auction houses however so prices may be reasonably high for a 20 year plus old vehicle but they would certainly be a long term investment if you can get one.

Good Luck if you do buy a Puma 90.

Regards Warrick.

[newlandyowner]

Have you looked at an Amarok?

[Ricey]

I've had my 90 for just over 2 years and 43k klm's and am happy with how it does everything I need it for. It tows a heavy load, goes almost anywhere off road and has not let me down over many, many trips away. I'm confident in it enough to go outback solo. The rear seats came out day one & with a 40 ltr fridge & 60 ltr water tank in the back I still have plenty of room for provisions, a big swag & my dog. There's been a few bugs ironed out under warranty, no biggy, I kind of expected their would be. Comfort wise I think I'd prefer the LWB for a better ride, but I guess it can be improved with different shocks & coils. Have you taken any for a test drive yet?

[Thewilk]

I've had my 90 for just over 2 years and 43k klm's and am happy with how it does everything I need it for. It tows a heavy load, goes almost anywhere off road and has not let me down over many, many trips away. I'm confident in it enough to go outback solo. The rear seats came out day one & with a 40 ltr fridge & 60 ltr water tank in the back I still have plenty of room for provisions, a big swag & my dog. There's been a few bugs ironed out under warranty, no biggy, I kind of expected their would be. Comfort wise I think I'd prefer the LWB for a better ride, but I guess it can be improved with different shocks & coils. Have you taken any for a test drive yet?

Yes, I've driven a 110. Before the Patrol we owned a Feroza and before that, an F20. The short wheelbase really doesn't put me off. When we go away anywhere the back off the car is usually half empy as most of the camping gear is in the trailer.
It's a hard decision to make when parting with 45k. I'm sort of 70% decided on a Defender but have the nagging doubt of reliability weighing over me!

[KarlB]

I have a 2010 Def90. Nearly 75,000 km Several big trips. Daily driver. Essentially no problems. Great vehicle. The 2.2 should be even better as it is supposedly smoother and quieter.

Cheers
KarlB
:)

[Chops]

I've had my dual cab Puma for just over a year now, it's on 40-45k on the clock.

Have had the ECU swapped out at first service, and an issue with the door seals. Both done under warranty, so no cash. The only other issue I have now is a noisy gearbox, was thinking its a thrust bearing but some of the guys think differently. We'll see what it is when it goes,, or maybe it's just noisy, adds to the character :D

All in all, I couldn't be happier, and I came out of a very comfortable D2V8 Auto.

[cwilder]

I have had my Puma for about 6 months now! I love it! I also own a 90 back in the states. Love it as well but of course it has a V8. The big difference is the extra space in the 110. I was over at the local LR dealer and they had a gorgeous 90! It was the limited Narza Bronze trimmed in Black! Go for it!

[n plus one]

My 09 Puma 110 has 85k on the clock now. It's done a fair bit of off road work, plenty of towing on heavily corrugated dirt roads and it's never been babied.

Every warranty repair I've had done has been the result of me being pedantic i.e. no breakdowns/show stoppers but you should expect at least one or two minor issues - it kinda' comes with the hand built nature of the beast. This being the case, I strongly recomend taking the time to find a good dealer/mechanic - life will be much easier if/when you do have issues.

If you want one just buy one - life's too short for stuffing around.

[steane]

Get the 90!

Every other new 4WD is an appliance and you'll be bored within a handful of months (won't admit to it but).

And don't listen to the naysayers about possible issues. ALL new TDs have their issues, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, VW etc etc. If you take the time to read up on some of the other forums you'll come back thinking the Deefer is positively reliable.

It's the nature of the beast with modern Turbo-diesels, so you may as well buy the only one that is terribly cool and thoroughly interesting ;)

[Witchdoctor]

Go with the 90, great little truck.
Took our 90 to Fraser towing the camper trailer, got into a couple of sticky situations in the extremely soft sand with low tyre pressure & the little truck saved the day.
This is a great 4x4, looking forward to testing it further in the future.

Go with your gut feeling

David

[jplambs]

Hi TheWilk,

It never ceases to amaze me how the people that keep advising others to not buy a puma don't actually own one themselves. For the record my puma is a little over 6 months old and has now done 18,000 kms without any dramas. It's quiet (for a defender), and has no dust leaks. I still haven't met a Puma owner that is a member of Aulro, (occasionally bump into fellow owners when in town) and all the ones that I have met tell me that they haven't had any dramas. This is starting to lead me to believe that Aulro might not be a reliable source of info when it comes to assessing the number of Puma's on the road with problems. I think it comes down to the fact the when people have an issue they normally google to find out if others have had a similar problem and Aulro is normally the first site to pop up.

[noogie]

Have you considered the government vehicle auctions?
A mate of mine picked up an ex police patrol. my11 for 33k. Came with dual batteries, winch bar & almost unused warn winch. Cargo barrier 7 seats & ac that works. Nice truck the patrol. Solid drive train, comfortable to drive & plenty of space.

Id stick with the patrol.
Having said all that, geeez i love my defender.
Be hard for me to go to the dark side.
:D

[wpalmo]

Hi TheWilk,

It never ceases to amaze me how the people that keep advising others to not buy a puma don't actually own one themselves. For the record my puma is a little over 6 months old and has now done 18,000 kms without any dramas. It's quiet (for a defender), and has no dust leaks. I still haven't met a Puma owner that is a member of Aulro, (occasionally bump into fellow owners when in town) and all the ones that I have met tell me that they haven't had any dramas. This is starting to lead me to believe that Aulro might not be a reliable source of info when it comes to assessing the number of Puma's on the road with problems. I think it comes down to the fact the when people have an issue they normally google to find out if others have had a similar problem and Aulro is normally the first site to pop up.


Bought a new Puma 90 in Feb 2010. So far, with only 34900km on the clock:

New front axle (was pulling left)
New gearbox
New rear diff
New clutch

too many other bits & pieces to mention.


The 2.2 is supposedly much better though.


LR replaced the original clutch (2010) with a new one (version 2) in June 2012 after I complained at length about the rattle.

In December the new clutch started rattling very softly. I asked them to replace with the post-August 2012 version 3 clutch and they refused, saying they could not hear the rattle.

After I got back from holidays, I sent a strongly-worded email to LRSA's complaints department asking them why they want to wait for my clutch to fail (probably in the middle of nowhere) before replacing it.

They arranged for me to take it to LR Stellebosch for a proper assessment. Vehicle went in yesterday and they just called to say that after removing the clutch and visually inspecting it, they are indeed going to replace it.

So looks like a Puma's clutch only lasts between 2000 - 3000km :thumbsup:


My 40 + year love affair with Land Rovers is becoming a little strained since buying a new 2012 Defender. I’ve always owned and loved at least one Land Rover since I learned to drive, and have 5 at the moment.

I’ve been following this thread and had decided to bite my tongue. I didn’t want to appear a “knocker or naysayer”, but today was the last straw.

All these problems have been resolved under warranty, before 5000km

Leaking coolant- screw cap replaced
Leaking coolant- plastic tank replaced
Corrosion in chassis- repaired and painted
Rear tailgate jammed shut- latches adjusted
Front output shaft seal leak- solved after 2 attempts
Gaps in bodywork- mastic applied
Rear diff growling- diff replaced
Seat belt recall- bolts replaced
Front torsion bar fell off (almost a showstopper) - nuts and bushes replaced
Gearbox removed to solve oil leaks
Hose clamps incorrectly installed- hose replaced and clamps re-orientated (this common fault was detected before failure with advise from this forum)
Damaged wiring resulting from gearbox work- repaired
Loose/missing nuts bolts sills- replaced
Front hub leak- solved after 4 attempts (2 seal replacements and 2 new hub assemblies)
HCPU tub not mounted squarely and pounding on rear of cabin –adjusted

None of these were showstoppers, not stranded, but were inconvenient. I have traveled over 2000km alone delivering the vehicle to the dealer 350 km away (700 round trip) for this warranty work.

But today a show stopper-stranded

Engine symbol on dash and then limp mode.

Checked under bonnet, fluids all good, no overheating, no hoses fallen off that I could see.
Called the 1800 LR assist line and put me through the lock - unlock sequence without clearing the fault. They advised it needed transport to the dealer for diagnosis. Also advised driving in limp mode voids warranty
3 hrs later the flat bed arrived for the long journey of shame.

Hopefully we will iron out the problems during the remaining 2 years warranty and it will be as reliable as my 1997 TDi 300. She has her old spot back in the shed tonight!


I'm seriously going to explode soon people. . .

Just got of the phone with Customer Care after a heated discussion, and before that a discussion with the Dealer who has my car in Townsville.

Lets summaries for you all (typing while angry probably not the best but who cares)

fuel pump has been replaced NO CHANGE!!!!!
and better yet NO EXPLANATION!

now they have apparently sent the Injectors away a second time and another one has come back faulty. . . . like really?

so now they are awaiting approval form LRA to replace that injector or all 3 remaining injectors.
So Ergo. . . I am no closer to haven't my car back and progress made = ZILCH!

I have requested every single bit fo paper and technical readouts they have for my car and that has been communicated between the dealer, LRA Technical and customer care and am awaiting a response on as to whether they will give me it or not. .

so I call customer care after this one. . .

Spoke with a helpfull fellow that ive been speaking too, Nice guy. . I feel bad for him having to deal with me.
I explained the situation, including how un-impressed I am with what has been done so far, and that I haven't requested a rental car till now.
I then told him that they WILL! be getting me a 4wd rental with towbar that I can and WILL take offroad as these are the two purposes for me owning a defender.
the response was along the lines of they can ask the rental companies but chances are the answer will be no as they wont let the cars be used offroad. .

so to re-cap
car still no closer to being fixed after 4 weeks. .
poor communication from the dealer
I have requested al technical documentation to be sent to me and am awaiting this
I have requested a 4wd with tow bar for 4wding and towing use
and Im about ready to explode. . .

where do things go from here? what can I do?

/End Rant
Leroy

Just a few Current Puma owners thoughts for you jplambs. Gee it is amazing how the people putting up these threads don't actually own a Puma themselves. Glad to hear yours is giving you a trouble free ride. Maybe time to but that lottery ticket.

Regards Warrick.

[lackuwaxa]

Seriously Warrick,

Do you get off on pointing that out? Every new vehicle has issues, every new TD model, from VW Passat through to an LC200 has a forum just like this where some people get lucky and have a fairly good time of new car ownership and some people dont .. what i read in all this is that LRA (especially if you get a good dealer) seems to support and honour the warranty claims a hell of a lot more than many/any of the others .. One of the LC200's we have at work had its warranty voided by Toyota, why? coz we modded it? No, coz it went off road?? ..

Show us a NEW TD that is problem free .. I'm kinda over people comparing a 2012/2013 Defender to an isuzu one from the 80's .. I drive them at work, i'll give you the hint, they are not great ..

Wade

[newhue]

phew, glad my comments misses wpalmo sweep.

I think having had mine since 2010 I'd front up for another. It has had it's problems and even been flat bedded 2 times. And quite amazing what LR have put into it with warranty.
However I use it every day for a tradies work truck, and go camping off road most weekends. It goes the the beach several times a year, It's done two long haul trips. One to the high country, one to the desert, and its going back again this year. So for what it does, it has on the whole been reliable, and vert comfortable, capable, and fun. But sure annoying in the first few months.

A new 90 will give you grief, there is no getting away from that. No one can tell you if it will happen in the city like mine, or further afield like others. Or how much grief. The 90's run a different diff to the problematic 110 and 130 diffs, so I don't think 90's have diff issues really. The Tdci motor in general has had very few complaints. The most common one fits into the dumb stuff category, like the hose clamp placed where it rubs on another hose, or the door handle falling off. And that is what LR ownership is about in many ways. So if you can accept finishing off the last 10% of the build with warranty it will become great reliable car.

There is also no getting away, put a few bob back into the Patrol and it service you well too. I'd imaging after a few major mechanicals done it may have some bedding in small complaints too. But if you've been happy with it for awhile, there is a plus to having no electricals in the middle of nowhere.

[Thewilk]

phew, glad my comments misses wpalmo sweep.

I think having had mine since 2010 I'd front up for another. It has had it's problems and even been flat bedded 2 times. And quite amazing what LR have put into it with warranty.
However I use it every day for a tradies work truck, and go camping off road most weekends. It goes the the beach several times a year, It's done two long haul trips. One to the high country, one to the desert, and its going back again this year. So for what it does, it has on the whole been reliable, and vert comfortable, capable, and fun. But sure annoying in the first few months.

A new 90 will give you grief, there is no getting away from that. No one can tell you if it will happen in the city like mine, or further afield like others. Or how much grief. The 90's run a different diff to the problematic 110 and 130 diffs, so I don't think 90's have diff issues really. The Tdci motor in general has had very few complaints. The most common one fits into the dumb stuff category, like the hose clamp placed where it rubs on another hose, or the door handle falling off. And that is what LR ownership is about in many ways. So if you can accept finishing off the last 10% of the build with warranty it will become great reliable car.

There is also no getting away, put a few bob back into the Patrol and it service you well too. I'd imaging after a few major mechanicals done it may have some bedding in small complaints too. But if you've been happy with it for awhile, there is a plus to having no electricals in the middle of nowhere.


The patrol has just as much electricals as any new modern motor, it's the first GU with the electronic control for the fuel pump. I had issues with it going into limp mode(throttle position sensor) usually pulling out of intersections the car would just die back to idle. Its still got the odd intermitent flat spot at 1600rpm. Its had its fair share of issues I'll admit, but never left me stranded(even driven it 350kms through the Kimberley with a rooted alternator)

[steane]

Seriously Warrick,

Do you get off on pointing that out? Every new vehicle has issues, every new TD model, from VW Passat through to an LC200 has a forum just like this where some people get lucky and have a fairly good time of new car ownership and some people dont .. what i read in all this is that LRA (especially if you get a good dealer) seems to support and honour the warranty claims a hell of a lot more than many/any of the others .. One of the LC200's we have at work had its warranty voided by Toyota, why? coz we modded it? No, coz it went off road?? ..

Show us a NEW TD that is problem free .. I'm kinda over people comparing a 2012/2013 Defender to an isuzu one from the 80's .. I drive them at work, i'll give you the hint, they are not great ..

Wade

Completely agree. Modern TDs have their issues, from carbon build-up, to electrical issues and a hundred things in between. CELs and limp modes will be experienced by a lot of owners across most brands.

Petrol engines are more reliable as a general rule these days. More service and drive, repeat a dozen times and then trade-in. A TD will fill that space with niggling issues, some CELs, maybe a limp mode or three, some problems with boost, maybe a fuel issue and it will cost a lot more to service (filters are killers) and repair when it goes wrong, if it's out of warranty.

Forums attract owners with issues, while owners with no or few issues will be talking about their next mod, or not talking at all. So to use a forum as proof that a vehicle type is a lemon is drawing a very long bow. If you refused to buy a vehicle based on this line of thought you'd be doing a lot of walking.

Much better to use a forum to give you an idea of what you may possibly have to deal with. Better to be informed about your purchase than not. et

Get the D90 :D If it has any issues use the warranty to get them fixed. Just get out there and enjoy it.

[jplambs]

Steane,

That's exactly what I was trying to convey, except you've said it ever so much better than I. :)

Warrick, I'm aware of the people that have had issues, I've been following those threads as well. My gripe is with people who respond to threads such as this one with "don't touch it with a barge pole" normally followed by "Get a isuzu, 300tdi - thats what I have." When I was looking to buy my defender these sort of people nearly stopped me from doing so. It got to the point where I would follow Puma owners until they stopped so I could ask them if they had, had the diff, clutch, etc issues. They all responded "No" and none of them were members of AULRO. I'm subsequently really glad that I didn't listen to the naysayers as there is a large smile on my face everytime I jump in the girl and drive off.

On the flipside of that coin I've been paying attention to the likes of Newhue, Grappler, etc with their problems as there is a lot to learn there, a fair bit of what goes wrong with the PUMA's is preventable in hindsight, things like rubbing hose clamps. In fact when I picked mine up I had a long list of items I wanted checked in the pre-delivery based on what I had read here.

[nugge t]

I have a 2010 Puma with 60,000kms on and haven't had any show stopper problems. I get it regularly serviced...in fact a bit over serviced!!..and the dealer has been great, often finding small things I haven't even noticed and fixing under warranty.

In the last 6 months I have crossed the country twice from Brisbane to Perth and Brisbane to Eighty Mile Beach, with as much dirt and as little bitumen as possible. Of the 20,000kms, approx 14,000kms was on dirt with much of that in the various deserts and remote areas... Plenty Hway 3 times, Anne Beadell Hway, Connie Sue Hway, Centre Line Track, Gary Junction Rd, Kidson Track, Talawana Track, Gary Hway, Section of the Gunbarrel Hway, Mary Hway, Sandy Blight Junction Rd and a couple of small sections of the CSR.

2 weaping swivel joints, leaking rear transfer case seal, oil leak on rear diff inspection plate, smashed passenger side mirror, a couple of shock bushes ( non LR) and a couple of staked tyres.

Before I bought mine I heard all the usual rally round the flag stuff....the last REAL Defender was made in 10BC rant, rant , rant.

Mine doesn't leak water through the roof, the diffs have been fine, the gearbox is sweet. Yes the gaps in the door seals let water in..and out but I have been pleasantly surprised at how little dust gets in.

Whilst I have done lot of mods to it, I have deliberately left the engine, drive trains and suspension standard with just some MTZ's and OME shocks.

Had 3 Patrols and I'll take the Defender any day.

[BilboBoggles]

Comparing a new vehicle to a 20-30 year old vehicle is not a fair comparison.

When that 20-30 year old vehicle was new - I bet it had issues too! And perhaps MANY MANY more - The late 70's and 80's were a bad time for quality out of the UK, many people will have forgotten that! It's just that in those days there was hardly any warranty, and you either fixed it yourself or lived with it.

I think all of the issues raised here in the forums are raised because people are passionate about the vehicle. These issues exist in all vehicles, it's just that other vehicles are so dog turd common, no one bands together to discuss the problems.

For example I think if you compared the issues found here with the issues that HSV ute owners have been through things here are quite tame!
Who remembers the LS1 floppy liner issues!

Iv'e lived through 3 brand new defenders, and this last one is damn near perfect. That's why I use it as my daily driver and NOT my 30 year old Range Rover and NOT my 10 year old Defender. Those old ones are nice and are extremely special to me - but are no patch on the new Defender. I like driving them - but I know that if I had to pay for someone else to maintain them to the same level of performance I expect of a new vehicle, it would take all of my money and then some. I live with weeping seals, with things that are not perfect because I know what it takes to fix them. But I won't tolerate those issues on a new vehicle. So that's why the comparison is invalid.

[mox]

Have not had any experience with Puma engine Defenders yet. However, I wonder if in the longer term motors and attached 6 speed gearboxes from wrecks of other vehicles that use them will in future be a good proposition for repowering both Pumas and older Land Rovers as there will probably be plenty of them around. I note that new Mazda utes as well as Ford Transits appear to use what is basically the same motor. Of course it would be necessary to find out all the little changes and get necessary bits and pieces to make them fit and function properly.

[samuelclarke]

From observation Defender owners tend to talk about their vehicle problems more than Toyota/Nissan owners which leads to the perception that they're not as reliable. I was looking at getting a Hilux last year as a second car...after doing research and talking to owners I came up with a list of problems longer than what people claim with the new Defender! Point being, even the "tough" Hilux has its share of problems...doesn't mean it's not a good vehicle. Same with the Defender.

I have a 1992 200Tdi Defender with 428,000kms - it has never left me stranded and I've done some remote trips. The only major issues I've had are: transfer case (I smashed the centre diff because I forgot to engage it off road - but even then was able to drive 1,200km home!), gearbox (at 420,000 and was still able to limp back in low range), clutch master and slave cylinders and the clutch pivot fork. Starting this year I will be doing a full rebuild on this Defender with a view to keeping it for another 20+ years as our main expedition vehicle.

If we had the spare cash we'd go buy a new Defender today (and keep the old one!) with no hesitation. For now we've got a Hyundai i30 diesel (great little car btw) as a second car, but will be looking at a new Defender in the next couple of years.

What am I getting at? In my opinion the new Defenders are great. As others have said before your experience will depend a lot on getting a good dealer for any warranty issues to be fixed properly. Once any initial issues are sorted a new Defender is the best off the shelf 4wd you can buy and should give you easily 10+ years service.

Hope that helps! :)

[newhue]

Have not had any experience with Puma engine Defenders yet. However, I wonder if in the longer term motors and attached 6 speed gearboxes from wrecks of other vehicles that use them will in future be a good proposition for repowering both Pumas and older Land Rovers as there will probably be plenty of them around. I note that new Mazda utes as well as Ford Transits appear to use what is basically the same motor. Of course it would be necessary to find out all the little changes and get necessary bits and pieces to make them fit and function properly.

I'm under the impression LR whilst owned by ford have done a fair bit of internal modification to the standard Transit motor. I can't recall the exact bits, but the oil pick up was one. It was altered so the defender can run happily of the angles a 4x4 often endures. You'd hope the same was done for a 3.2 in the Rangers.

I believe a poor oil pick up was one of Nissan's 3lt hang grade issues, amongst others.

[Leroy_Riding]

Ive had my puma 90 for almost 9 months now, 16,000kms on the clock. .

I dont actually have it right now.. its at the dealership in townsville and has been fro over 4 weeks with no sign of them being any closer to getting it to even start!!
its been a nightmare for 4 weeks, and its not the first warranty job. .

you can read my thread about it all. .

I would still not have anything else and I still love my puma 90 regardless of this.

If you want one just buy one, no matter what you buy the chances of failure are the same.

you can go buy a new car, or you can buy a Defender which is like buying a new friend.

Leroy

[Thewilk]

Ive had my puma 90 for almost 9 months now, 16,000kms on the clock. .

I dont actually have it right now.. its at the dealership in townsville and has been fro over 4 weeks with no sign of them being any closer to getting it to even start!!
its been a nightmare for 4 weeks, and its not the first warranty job. .

you can read my thread about it all. .

I would still not have anything else and I still love my puma 90 regardless of this.

If you want one just buy one, no matter what you buy the chances of failure are the same.

you can go buy a new car, or you can buy a Defender which is like buying a new friend.

Leroy


After the trouble you've had and you still wouldn't part with it, says something about Defenders. Might have to have a wander down to the stealers and see what the go is price wise.


Just out of interest, is the 2.2 the same as the 2.2 Ranger engine?

[jimr1]

Some say Land Rovers have an Aura . the French say they have a Soul . I have traveld to many Countrys all over the world , if I see a landy I always make a point , if I can of talking to the driver , and taking a photo . My wife thinks i'm nuts , but i've met some lovelly poeple , I don't think other verhical owners do that . A new 90 smells nice .:)

[Summiitt]

I must have a different type of puma, between the two I have owned from new, I have been into some very remote areas, done some hardcore 4wding, clocked up 220+k between them and have never been let down. Some minor new car niggles that were sorted with little fuss. I drive my current ute everyday for work, loaded at around 32-3500kg gvm and do around 35,000km per year, most of it on rural roads, forestry tracks and construction sites...maybe I have a good one?

[Leroy_Riding]

After the trouble you've had and you still wouldn't part with it, says something about Defenders. Might have to have a wander down to the stealers and see what the go is price wise.


Just out of interest, is the 2.2 the same as the 2.2 Ranger engine?

They have personality and you grow attached to them, and despite there 'quirks' they will take you were most other 4wd's only dream of going :)

$44,995 drive away right now on a MY1290 I think. . . its on the LRA website.

cant comment about the engine being the same as the ranger.

[Chops]

you can go buy a new car, or you can buy a Defender which is like buying a new friend.

Leroy

Wow,, this statement is so true :D

I hope it all comes good for you Leroy, and I love your philosophy ;)

[ericvv]

Have a 2009 model 110 SVX. 61k km after 4.5 years. After 3 months the EGR had a problem, replaced under warranty and all fine ever since. A year ago the rear diff seal started leaking. Again, replaced under (extended) warranty, fine ever since. Anything else,...? Not really, still have my first clutch, zero leaks, etc. Most importantly, every time I get into the Defender it puts a smile on my face:D I think the real problem with many problem Defenders is that people push them too hard, I know it can do a lot, but still demands respect as to what you do with it, and how you maintain it. It remains a 65 year old design you know, it is neither a Shermann tank, nor a Marauder. If you find that reasonable statement, then go for it and make the Mrs. smile :BigThumb::BigThumb::BigThumb:

[gconran]

I put a deposit down today on a 2013 90. Cannot wait. Sold my 2000 110 Td5 6 months go and been dying to get back in the game.

[PAT303]

My 2011 X-Tech has been to the Gibb river,Tallawana,Gary Highway,Gary Junction,canning up to well 33,crossed Oz Four times,Gunbarrel/Great Central,Kangaroo Island,Up and down the Kimberly Coast and many other places and the A/C stopped working properly 2 weeks ago,the only issue in 54,000k's and 18months ownership.My daily driver is a Tdi,the TDCi is light years ahead and as for the Isuzu's,give me a break. Pat

[Loubrey]

My Puma (2010 90) yesterday morning had it's second warranty issue in 3 years. When it started the emergency lights flicked once and the temp gauge jumped up, the revs dropped a bit and then everything settled and she ran fine.

Got to work and phoned the dealer who's looked after her from day one and they immediately called me over for a look. Turned out to be a faulty relay on the ECM which they swapped out there in the car park. Ran a quick diagnostic and all was fine. 15 minute visit and the service manage bought me a coffee while I waited!

This 90 is my 5th Defender and I've never been left stranded by any one of them. The joy being, as Pat wrote the Puma is by a country mile the the best out of the 5 in every single aspect. Mechanical sympathy when driving or operating goes a long way...

(BTW the first warranty issue was a loose wire on a loom plug on the immobiliser that wriggled loose!)

Cheers,

Lou

[PAT303]

After a google search I found a video on ExplorOz,go to page three and look at the thread about outback conditions and there's a video of a bloke who did the Tallawana in 09,a good vid on the conditions mine been driven in without issue. Pat

[wpalmo]

My daily driver is a Tdi,the TDCi is light years ahead and as for the Isuzu's,give me a break. Pat

A bit harsh Pat! I believe the Australian Defence Forces are not renewing their Isuzu Perenties and Bushrangers with Puma's. From what I have read it will be Mercedes G Wagen's due to superior reliability than what is currently available from Land Rover.

The Isuzu powered Defenders are simple beasts and have proven to be exceptional performers for what they were built for. The first Perenties were delivered to the ADF in 1987 and are only now going to be released to the public. I think they will be highly sought after and will not be cheap even though some of them will be 20 plus years old.

Regards Warrick.

[beefy]

I think owning a defender is a way of life. I had a. Great td5 discovery 340k on it and never had the head off it. Every one said get a Japan can you won't have problems 18 months 80k and two crate motors later. I am in a 2012 defender and love it. I recon if it does break down on the side of the road I will still have a smie

[Tombie]

A bit harsh Pat! I believe the Australian Defence Forces are not renewing their Isuzu Perenties and Bushrangers with Puma's. From what I have read it will be Mercedes G Wagen's due to superior reliability than what is currently available from Land Rover.

The Isuzu powered Defenders are simple beasts and have proven to be exceptional performers for what they were built for. The first Perenties were delivered to the ADF in 1987 and are only now going to be released to the public. I think they will be highly sought after and will not be cheap even though some of them will be 20 plus years old.

Regards Warrick.

Actually - Land Rover didn't even tender.

The ADF wanted a "one stop shop" for LVs and Trucks. LR doesn't have the range to tender.

So your "I heard" was incorrect.

[wpalmo]

Actually - Land Rover didn't even tender.

The ADF wanted a "one stop shop" for LVs and Trucks. LR doesn't have the range to tender.

So your "I heard" was incorrect.

Thanks for the correction Tombie, as I was surprised to read that Mercedes G Wagens were going to be the vehicle of choice for the ADF. I would of thought that Wolf Defenders would have been a proven choice as a replacement for the Perenties and Bushrangers.

Regards Warrick.

[Michael2]

While the Patrol was a good vehicle, from the sound of it, it is spent. 10 years is about it's service life before things crack, rust and need lot's of work. From here on in it's okay as a weekender / paddock basher.

On the other hand, 10 year old Defenders are no where near the end of their service life.

While a Defender may initially need some attention, I think it would have a service life of 20-30 years. My 1997 Tdi is still 'current' as far as service life goes, and that replaced a 1976 SIII.

I'd recommend the Defender, though I can't comment on the 2.2.

Given the long service life of the Defender, a late TD5 might be worth exploring.